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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Dec 22, 2020 2:49:39 GMT
The latter model Tarantauls would be a good buy for the Philippines and you have the shipyards to provide them with an upgrade upon purchase. Provided that their systems and weapons are upgraded over the next thirty years they would provide a great example of distributed lethality for the Philippines Navy. Tarantul Is, I'm guessing that would be a former Soviet ship, right? Although given the pre-Duterte tendency to stick with American weapons, even if it was hand me downs, they would not accept Tarantul I-class ships. I might not be surprised if Duterte would be seriously thinking about purchasing them, since they could also come under CAATSA rules, right? |
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Post by La Rouge Beret on Dec 22, 2020 5:32:14 GMT
The latter model Tarantauls would be a good buy for the Philippines and you have the shipyards to provide them with an upgrade upon purchase. Provided that their systems and weapons are upgraded over the next thirty years they would provide a great example of distributed lethality for the Philippines Navy. Tarantul Is, I'm guessing that would be a former Soviet ship, right? Although given the pre-Duterte tendency to stick with American weapons, even if it was hand me downs, they would not accept Tarantul I-class ships. I might not be surprised if Duterte would be seriously thinking about purchasing them, since they could also come under CAATSA rules, right? CAASTA has only recently come into play, if you were purchasing Tarantaul missile corvettes that would occur in the 90s. Otherwise if you wanted to avoid them, discuss it with the Americans and offer that any upgrade work would take place in their yards or involve an American contractor. You would soon find that an exemption is granted to your country. Otherwise the corvettes that Brunei originally acquired from the Brits & were then purchased by the Indonesians would provide a niche capability for the PN. |
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Dec 22, 2020 5:58:09 GMT
When the Russian Navy is awashed with old Soviet vessels, then yes, I could see that happening. How much is the Tarantul I-class missile corvette? Although having an American contractor involved with the upgrades might be a good option to get around the whole “purchasing from the enemy” mindset, and this was pretty much the mindset of the Philippines before Duterte.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Dec 22, 2020 11:09:25 GMT
Tarantul Is, I'm guessing that would be a former Soviet ship, right? Although given the pre-Duterte tendency to stick with American weapons, even if it was hand me downs, they would not accept Tarantul I-class ships. I might not be surprised if Duterte would be seriously thinking about purchasing them, since they could also come under CAATSA rules, right? CAASTA has only recently come into play, if you were purchasing Tarantaul missile corvettes that would occur in the 90s. Otherwise if you wanted to avoid them, discuss it with the Americans and offer that any upgrade work would take place in their yards or involve an American contractor. You would soon find that an exemption is granted to your country. Otherwise the corvettes that Brunei originally acquired from the Brits & were then purchased by the Indonesians would provide a niche capability for the PN.
Looking at the wiki link Tarantul-class_corvette it mentions that they also served in a lot of WP and Soviet aligned nations and by the looks of it the Poles at least built some of their own. If you bought them from one of the ex WP nations now in NATO then that would probably be a lot more palatable for the US. Might also bypass CAATSA although I would suspect any purchase of such ships is most likely to occur before that came into being. Agreed that offer the US the work of upgrading them would also be a useful tool for removing any US opposition. |
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Dec 25, 2020 0:26:10 GMT
The Hiddensee was at one point under the service of the US Navy before it became a museum ship. Having something like that being delivered to the PN instead of being reduced to a museum ship might have worked, though the only NATO country that might want to exchange their old Tarantul-class corvettes for something better than that would be Poland. The ORP Gornik, Hutnik, Metalowiec and Rolnik would have been excellent candidates for service in the Philippine Navy with the help of the Americans, if they're offering to upgrade those ships (plus the Americans might also have an opportunity to study the Tarantul-class corvette for further research and development)
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gillan1220
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Post by gillan1220 on Jan 2, 2021 9:07:25 GMT
Someone actually created a scenario where the Philippine Navy gets Alaska-class cruisers in its early years. As cool as it sounds, it is impractical for the Philippines to own such when its much better to have the Fletcher-class and Gleaves-class DDs. Photo: Alaska-class large cruiser  |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jan 2, 2021 9:15:46 GMT
Someone actually created a scenario where the Philippine Navy gets Alaska-class cruisers in its early years. As cool as it sounds, it is impractical for the Philippines to own such when its much better to have the Fletcher-class and Gleaves-class DDs. Photo: Alaska-class large cruiser I agree, the Philippine Navy is better of the frigates and destroyers than this large cruiser. |
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gillan1220
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Post by gillan1220 on Jan 2, 2021 9:20:25 GMT
Someone actually created a scenario where the Philippine Navy gets Alaska-class cruisers in its early years. As cool as it sounds, it is impractical for the Philippines to own such when its much better to have the Fletcher-class and Gleaves-class DDs. Photo: Alaska-class large cruiser I agree, the Philippine Navy is better of the frigates and destroyers than this large cruiser. The user replied to my comment that we could compare to how Sweden, Finland, and Norway had coastal battleships to protect against an aggressor. Here in the Philippines however, the Navy's focus is more of patrol, area denial, anti-submarine, mining, and anti-mining operations. A heavy cruiser would just be impractical when smaller destroyers and frigates could do the job. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jan 2, 2021 9:24:51 GMT
I agree, the Philippine Navy is better of the frigates and destroyers than this large cruiser. The user replied to my comment that we could compare to how Sweden, Finland, and Norway had coastal battleships to protect against an aggressor. Here in the Philippines however, the Navy's focus is more of patrol, area denial, anti-submarine, mining, and anti-mining operations. A heavy cruiser would just be impractical when smaller destroyers and frigates could do the job. What about missile boats, they could also be effective. |
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Post by stevep on Jan 2, 2021 11:14:37 GMT
Someone actually created a scenario where the Philippine Navy gets Alaska-class cruisers in its early years. As cool as it sounds, it is impractical for the Philippines to own such when its much better to have the Fletcher-class and Gleaves-class DDs. Photo: Alaska-class large cruiser I agree, the Philippine Navy is better of the frigates and destroyers than this large cruiser.
Definitely agree as many people consider those ships as battlecruisers. See USS Alaska for their details. I can't see one, or worst still both of them, being cost effective for the Philippines as they would be very expensive to maintain, let alone man. Even the USN decommissioned them as early as 1947. Plus in the sort of time period their likely to be available - say prior to being scrapped in 1960 - there's no substantial naval threat and the USN is both overwhelmingly powerful and a close ally. Suspect they would be huge resource sinks, draining money and manpower from the rest of the navy/armed forces as a whole.
The comparison given by the authors, with Scandinavian coastal 'battleships' isn't a very good one as such ships were small units, slow only used literally for coastal defence purposes and as such cheap to build and operate. An Alaska is pretty much the size of many WWII BBs and with only slightly less firepower.
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gillan1220
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Post by gillan1220 on Jan 2, 2021 14:00:45 GMT
The user replied to my comment that we could compare to how Sweden, Finland, and Norway had coastal battleships to protect against an aggressor. Here in the Philippines however, the Navy's focus is more of patrol, area denial, anti-submarine, mining, and anti-mining operations. A heavy cruiser would just be impractical when smaller destroyers and frigates could do the job. What about missile boats, they could also be effective. Missiles boats are actually more practical. There's a reason why the Philippine Navy procured the the Spike ER missiles from Israel for the multi-purpose attack craft (MPAC). One obscure incident in 1996 had the Philippine Navy impound a PLA-N Huangfeng-class fast attack craft (based on the Soviet Osa II-class missile boat) though I could not see what happened to the fate of the boat and the crew.
Definitely agree as many people consider those ships as battlecruisers. See USS Alaska for their details. I can't see one, or worst still both of them, being cost effective for the Philippines as they would be very expensive to maintain, let alone man. Even the USN decommissioned them as early as 1947. Plus in the sort of time period their likely to be available - say prior to being scrapped in 1960 - there's no substantial naval threat and the USN is both overwhelmingly powerful and a close ally. Suspect they would be huge resource sinks, draining money and manpower from the rest of the navy/armed forces as a whole.
The comparison given by the authors, with Scandinavian coastal 'battleships' isn't a very good one as such ships were small units, slow only used literally for coastal defence purposes and as such cheap to build and operate. An Alaska is pretty much the size of many WWII BBs and with only slightly less firepower.
Agreed. The Alaska-class battlecruiser is just gonna be resource sink in which precious resources could be used to purchase and maintain something more cost-effective such as a midget submarine, destroyer, or frigate. |
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Post by lordroel on Jan 2, 2021 14:06:54 GMT
What about missile boats, they could also be effective. Missiles boats are actually more practical. There's a reason why the Philippine Navy procured the the Spike ER missiles from Israel for the multi-purpose attack craft (MPAC). One obscure incident in 1996 had the Philippine Navy impound a PLA-N Huangfeng-class fast attack craft (based on the Soviet Osa II-class missile boat) though I could not see what happened to the fate of the boat and the crew. The Spike missile is nice, but they need something bigger like a Harpoon ore Exocet missile.  |
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gillan1220
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Post by gillan1220 on Jan 2, 2021 14:08:20 GMT
Missiles boats are actually more practical. There's a reason why the Philippine Navy procured the the Spike ER missiles from Israel for the multi-purpose attack craft (MPAC). One obscure incident in 1996 had the Philippine Navy impound a PLA-N Huangfeng-class fast attack craft (based on the Soviet Osa II-class missile boat) though I could not see what happened to the fate of the boat and the crew. The Spike missile is nice, but they need something bigger like a Harpoon ore Exocet missile. Spike missiles can only penetrate smaller craft of the same size or low flying helicopters. The Harpoon anti-ship missile was offered in the 1970s-1980s but didn't materialize due to the economic situation under the Marcos dictatorship. I'm gonna have to research about the Exocets if these were even considered. |
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Post by lordroel on Jan 2, 2021 14:13:49 GMT
The Spike missile is nice, but they need something bigger like a Harpoon ore Exocet missile. Spike missiles can only penetrate smaller craft of the same size or low flying helicopters. The Harpoon anti-ship missile was offered in the 1970s-1980s but didn't materialize due to the economic situation under the Marcos dictatorship. I'm gonna have to research about the Exocets if these were even considered. I remember once that in the Dale Brown's 1991 novel Sky Masters, BRP Rajah Humabon was equipped with a four-shot Mk141 Harpoon missile launcher, so it could be possible i guess.  |
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gillan1220
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Post by gillan1220 on Jan 2, 2021 14:16:44 GMT
Spike missiles can only penetrate smaller craft of the same size or low flying helicopters. The Harpoon anti-ship missile was offered in the 1970s-1980s but didn't materialize due to the economic situation under the Marcos dictatorship. I'm gonna have to research about the Exocets if these were even considered. I remember once that in the Dale Brown's 1991 novel Sky Masters, BRP Rajah Humabon was equipped with a four-shot Mk141 Harpoon missile launcher, so it could be possible i guess. The Harpoons were probably removed since the project did not include that. The same one could be said for the Gregorio del Pilar-class OPVs which unfortunately did not cover the Harpoons and Phalanx CIWS. |
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