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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Dec 13, 2020 6:39:58 GMT
HMAS Melbourne and HMAS Newcastle were sold to Chile IOTL, but yeah, I don't see them as being a good fit for the Philippine Navy. Especially if their economic situation would be terrible during the Cory Aquino and Fidel Ramos years. I know that this thread is about a better Philippine Navy in the Cold War, but with Marcos's screw ups, there was no way the Philippine Navy would afford any new ships.
Actually, IOTL the Indonesian Navy had purchased a good chunk of the former East German Navy's Parchim-class corvettes. I'm not sure why the Indonesian Navy purchased 16 of those corvettes.
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Post by gillan1220 on Dec 13, 2020 8:08:33 GMT
HMAS Melbourne and HMAS Newcastle were sold to Chile IOTL, but yeah, I don't see them as being a good fit for the Philippine Navy. Especially if their economic situation would be terrible during the Cory Aquino and Fidel Ramos years. I know that this thread is about a better Philippine Navy in the Cold War, but with Marcos's screw ups, there was no way the Philippine Navy would afford any new ships. Actually, IOTL the Indonesian Navy had purchased a good chunk of the former East German Navy's Parchim-class corvettes. I'm not sure why the Indonesian Navy purchased 16 of those corvettes. There were possibilities that the PN might have purchased HMAS Melbourne and HMAS Newcastle. I'm not sure why I didn't push through but it was looked into at this time in 2015-2017. I agree with you that Marcos' screwups can still be felt today. There's a reason why the Philippines was called the sick man of Asia at the time of the Cold War because the country stagnated while the neighbors around the country grew in economy and military. Indonesia is an interesting case because they are known to use the Jang Bogo-class submarine of Daewoo Shipbuilding from South Korea. The Jang Bogo-class is based on the Type 209 diesel-electric submarine of the German Navy. Seeing those Parchim's and Type 209's sailing together is a sight to behold. |
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Dec 13, 2020 8:24:53 GMT
I don’t think the Parchim-class corvettes would have been a good fit for the Philippine navy due to how expensive it could be. I’m not also sure if the Type 209 would be a better fit than the Scorpene-class submarine that is chosen by the OTL Philippine Navy. The British Victoria-class submarine could be another good candidate for the Philippine Navy, though the OTL submarine fire that broke out of HMCS Chicoutimi might be a downer.
Too bad that Japan was banned from selling its military equipment during the Cold War due to restrictions in their constitution. Otherwise, you’d have a good selection of older Japanese vessels that are good candidates for the Philippine Navy.
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Post by gillan1220 on Dec 13, 2020 9:44:43 GMT
I don’t think the Parchim-class corvettes would have been a good fit for the Philippine navy due to how expensive it could be. I’m not also sure if the Type 209 would be a better fit than the Scorpene-class submarine that is chosen by the OTL Philippine Navy. The British Victoria-class submarine could be another good candidate for the Philippine Navy, though the OTL submarine fire that broke out of HMCS Chicoutimi might be a downer. Too bad that Japan was banned from selling its military equipment during the Cold War due to restrictions in their constitution. Otherwise, you’d have a good selection of older Japanese vessels that are good candidates for the Philippine Navy. I don't see the Philippine Navy using ComBloc ships since the AFP follows the NATO doctrine. The likely candidates would either be the French Scorpene-class, the British Victoria-class, the Italian Todaro-class and Sauro-class, the Dutch Zwaardvis-class (used by the ROC-N), the Swedish Challenger-class and Archer-class (used by the Republic of Singapore Navy), and the German Invincible-class submarine (also used by the RSN). If Japan was not prohibited to sell its equipment, we could have seen a PN with Hatsuyuki-class destroyers, Takanami-class destroyers, Haruna-class and Shirane-class helicopter destroyers, and Soryu-class diesel-electric submarines. The Army would have had Type 90 and Type 10 tanks or Type 89 IFVs while the Air Force would have had F-2s. Why Japan’s Soryu-Class Submarines Are So GoodTOP 5 MODERN SUBMARINE IN ASEAN |
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Dec 13, 2020 16:58:23 GMT
I’d also say the Yubari-class frigates might also be a good fit for the PN, but yeah. Also, you might also look into the Challenger-class submarines as a good candidate too.
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Post by gillan1220 on Dec 14, 2020 5:26:19 GMT
I’d also say the Yubari-class frigates might also be a good fit for the PN, but yeah. Also, you might also look into the Challenger-class submarines as a good candidate too. -class destroyer escorts/frigates were decommissioned in 2010. Photo for reference: JS Yūbetsu (DE-228)  There were replaced with the Abukuma-class destroyer escort/frigate. Photo for reference: JS Sendai (DE-232)  Those Yubari-class DEs would have been ideal to replace the Cannon-class DEs the Philippine Navy used. I wonder if part of the deal would be to include the ASROC launcher, the Harpoon SSM launcher, and the CIWS. Because if not, it would just be armed with an OTO Melara similar to what happened to the Gregorio del Pilar-class (formerly USCG Hamilton-class cutter) offshore patrol vessel and the South Korean Pohang-class frigate commissioned as the BRP Conrado Yap which were stripped of all their advanced weapons. Funny enough, countless toxic netizens have this "give us for free second hand" attitude without researching the pros and cons of such. From 2015 to 2017, these "freebie" boys commented on how the Philippine Navy should have purchased two Shirane-class DDHs: JS Shirane (DDH-143) and JS Kurama (DDH-144). It is important to note that these DDHs use boilers in which personnel from the PN aren't trained to operate. Photo for reference: PACIFIC OCEAN (Jan. 10, 2011) The Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force destroyer JS Kurama (DDH-144) is underway in the Pacific Ocean. (U.S. Navy photo by Mass Communication Specialist 2nd Class James R. Evans/Released)
 Japanese destroyer JS Shirane passes the World Trade Center at the start of Fleet WeekAll hopes ended when the Shirane was tested as a target using a supersonic anti-ship missile in September 2017. The Defense community is divided whether to get hand-me-downs or a new one especially with those retired Challenger-class subs. Either way, that infographic video I posted here proves why the PN needs a submarine when even a country like Burma has one. |
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Dec 14, 2020 5:44:38 GMT
Honestly, the only thing that would be a major gamechanger for the Philippines, especially its manufacturing industry would have been to improve its shipbuilding ability. It's also the training of the PN sailors that needs a massive overhaul, though would South Korea even be willing to help train Philippine Navy sailors?
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Post by gillan1220 on Dec 14, 2020 6:06:29 GMT
Honestly, the only thing that would be a major gamechanger for the Philippines, especially its manufacturing industry would have been to improve its shipbuilding ability. It's also the training of the PN sailors that needs a massive overhaul, though would South Korea even be willing to help train Philippine Navy sailors? Countries like Australia, France, India, Italy, South Korea, Spain, the UK, and the United States can help train shipbuilders and sailors. |
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Dec 14, 2020 6:33:58 GMT
True, and I could also see the PMA’s curriculum being overhauled badly. Australia might be the most realistic naval expert that is closest to the Philippines in terms of geographical distance for training its sailors.
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Post by La Rouge Beret on Dec 14, 2020 7:42:57 GMT
While it is an easy thing to miss is that the Adelaide class frigates were Oliver Hazard frigates modified for Australian service, mainly by lengthening the transom by 7 feet to accommodate the Seahawk. In saying that the Oliver Hazard Perry frigates are bigger ships then most people realise and, with a turbine damn expensive to run depending upon the fuel price. The other thing that I would share is that they have a bloody huge RCS and are lightly armed, with that in mind I think the Philippines made the right decision.
With that in mind the Maestraele or Incheon class would have suited your requirements quite nicely and of the two the Incheon would have been the better choice (closer supply chains to South Korea & ability to transfer skills to Philippine shipyards). Further, having a MPA like the P - 3 would be a great choice as they are still very good platforms and as soon as they come on station they dramatically improve your surface picture. Rather then acquiring submarines, see if you can have a forward deployed submarine from an allied power (Australia, USA, South Korea, maybe Taiwan).
Corvettes and OPVs are a must, I would also look at improving the fleet train as well, which is important from a sustainability perspective.
However, the key sticking point with all of this is ensuring that the economy is large enough to sustain it. The second is bipartisan commitment to funding a fleet this size and, the shore facilities to maintain it.
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Post by gillan1220 on Dec 14, 2020 9:25:20 GMT
True, and I could also see the PMA’s curriculum being overhauled badly. Australia might be the most realistic naval expert that is closest to the Philippines in terms of geographical distance for training its sailors. The Indonesians can also train the Philippine Navy on how to protect islands or deny access to the OPFOR. Remember that Indonesia is the largest achipelago in the world. They known how strategic their water ways are. Also their President is not afraid of China. They were even known to sink illegal Chinese fishing boats while the President himself boarded an Indonesian naval ship just as they were shadowed by the China Coast Guard cutter. Photo: Indonesian President Joko Widodo stands on the deck of the Indonesian Navy ship KRI Imam Bonjol after chairing a limited cabinet meeting in the waters of Natuna Islands, Riau Islands province, Indonesia on Thursday in this photo provided by Antara Foto.  While it is an easy thing to miss is that the Adelaide class frigates were Oliver Hazard frigates modified for Australian service, mainly by lengthening the transom by 7 feet to accommodate the Seahawk. In saying that the Oliver Hazard Perry frigates are bigger ships then most people realise and, with a turbine damn expensive to run depending upon the fuel price. The other thing that I would share is that they have a bloody huge RCS and are lightly armed, with that in mind I think the Philippines made the right decision. With that in mind the Maestraele or Incheon class would have suited your requirements quite nicely and of the two the Incheon would have been the better choice (closer supply chains to South Korea & ability to transfer skills to Philippine shipyards). Further, having a MPA like the P - 3 would be a great choice as they are still very good platforms and as soon as they come on station they dramatically improve your surface picture. Rather then acquiring submarines, see if you can have a forward deployed submarine from an allied power (Australia, USA, South Korea, maybe Taiwan). Corvettes and OPVs are a must, I would also look at improving the fleet train as well, which is important from a sustainability perspective. However, the key sticking point with all of this is ensuring that the economy is large enough to sustain it. The second is bipartisan commitment to funding a fleet this size and, the shore facilities to maintain it. Maritime patrol planes, shore-based batteries, corvette, multi-purpose fast-attack crafts (MPACs) and OPVs are needed especially when the primary purpose of the Philippine Navy is to protect the islands and narrow straits in between it. Back then in 2018, the Philippine Navy finally had its first missiles in the form of the Spike-ER supplied by Israel. Philippine Navy Missile Test 2018 (Spike-ER)As per OPVs, the Philippine Navy has three Gregorio del Pilar-class to fill that role (BRP Gregorio del Pilar, BRP Ramon Alcaraz, and BRP Andres Bonifacio) while the coast guard has 10 Parola-class (based on the Bisan-class patrol vessel) patrol vessels from Japan and the one of the Gabriela Silang-class built from France that arrived in the middle of the COVID-19 pandemic. Photo: BRP Tubbataha during its delivery to the Philippine Coast Guard, July 11, 2016. Source: Pitz Defense Analysis Photo: BRP Gabriela Silang (OPV-8301) in OCEA Shipbuilding, Les Sables-d'Olonne, France. |
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Post by La Rouge Beret on Dec 15, 2020 2:10:09 GMT
Don't waste your time with Fast Attack Craft for their capabilities you are better off with land based anti ship missile capabilities that are air & road portable. Go up one step to a Corvette and you have platforms that are more useful & survivable, while the lower end maritime policing is best left to OPVs.
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Post by gillan1220 on Dec 15, 2020 2:39:54 GMT
Don't waste your time with Fast Attack Craft for their capabilities you are better off with land based anti ship missile capabilities that are air & road portable. Go up one step to a Corvette and you have platforms that are more useful & survivable, while the lower end maritime policing is best left to OPVs. I forgot to mention the Philippine Navy plans to procure the BrahMos cruise missile for coastal defense. Unfortunately, it would be delayed due to this pandemic. |
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Dec 15, 2020 4:40:35 GMT
I would say leave the fast attack craft for the Philippine Coast Guard, they can use it for law enforcement duties, although given how many islands that both the PN and PCG would have to cover, they would need enough vessels to protect them all.
What are the land based anti ship missiles that could be purchased for a cheap price?
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Post by lordroel on Dec 15, 2020 5:02:25 GMT
I would say leave the fast attack craft for the Philippine Coast Guard, they can use it for law enforcement duties, although given how many islands that both the PN and PCG would have to cover, they would need enough vessels to protect them all. What are the land based anti ship missiles that could be purchased for a cheap price? Well in OTL the Philippines plans to procure Brahmos land-based supersonic anti-ship missile system from India
Photo posted here is the mockup of the system that the Philippine Army, not the navy wants to buy.  |
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