stevep
Fleet admiral
Posts: 24,841 
Likes: 13,227
|
Post by stevep on Apr 19, 2024 12:01:02 GMT
One issue however is, assuming the loyalist government is largely defeated what happens with leading members of it seeking to escape to probably Canada to avoid probably brutal punishment by the winners? Depending on how the situation is would the Canadians turn them back and if they did get through what sort of crisis might develop if the winners demanded their return? Hawaii and Alaska are Loyalist (United States) states, any member of the government can go there to do a Alpine Fortress (German: Alpenfestung) or Alpine Redoubt last stand.
They can try but how long would either of those areas last if/when a clear winner emerges and controls the bulk of the 48 continental states? Also for someone in the loyalist heartland around the Great Lakes and NE Canada especially is a lot closer and easier to reach. Thinking not just major figures in the regime, cabinet ministers, military leaders and the like but possibly also medium and lower level types depending on how fearful they are of retaliation/persecution and how determined the new unified government is to retrieve enemies of the state.
Of course if the other three factions start squabbling after the fall of the loyalist - or even after the fall of Washington which might well mean a rump loyalist state also remains - you could end up with no clear winner and a partitioned US, although that might be a fairly low priority event.
|
|
lordroel
Administrator
Posts: 68,003
Likes: 49,405
|
Post by lordroel on Apr 19, 2024 12:21:38 GMT
Of course if the other three factions start squabbling after the fall of the loyalist - or even after the fall of Washington which might well mean a rump loyalist state also remains - you could end up with no clear winner and a partitioned US, although that might be a fairly low priority event.
A rump Loyalist (United States) out of Hawaii and in control of Hawaii, Alaska and Guam, reminds me of the Flensburg government. |
|
ukron
Commander
"Beware of the French"
Posts: 1,433
Likes: 2,383
|
Post by ukron on Apr 19, 2024 13:33:19 GMT
Don't you think that Canada would break up too? I mean there is too much contacts with United States and "silent" separatisms movements ongoing (Quebec...) ?
|
|
lordroel
Administrator
Posts: 68,003
Likes: 49,405
|
Post by lordroel on Apr 19, 2024 13:37:26 GMT
Don't you think that Canada would break up too? I mean there is too much contacts with United States and "silent" separatisms movements ongoing (Quebec...) ? Do not think Canada will break up, the reason why the 2ACW broke out is a United States President among others going for a third term, the United states Constitution being abolished and using force to remain in power. |
|
ukron
Commander
"Beware of the French"
Posts: 1,433
Likes: 2,383
|
Post by ukron on Apr 19, 2024 13:54:09 GMT
My main concern about Canada is the expansion of political violence through mass medias and direct influence from the different american factions that need to influence Canada for keeping (or establishing) relationships with foreign countries.
Recent events in OTL have shown that extremism and political violence tends to easily spread from one democratic country to another in a very short span: for instance QANON theories and Far-rights groups protesting against Covid restrictions didn't have difficulty to spread from US to Canada.
Now imagine if United States dissolve into a civil war, it's means that every wanna-be terrorists or rebels can easily be trained/equipped/supplied without any difficulty.
|
|
lordroel
Administrator
Posts: 68,003
Likes: 49,405
|
Post by lordroel on Apr 19, 2024 14:03:36 GMT
My main concern about Canada is the expansion of political violence through mass medias and direct influence from the different american factions that need to influence Canada for keeping (or establishing) relationships with foreign countries. Recent events in OTL have shown that extremism and political violence tends to easily spread from one democratic country to another in a very short span: for instance QANON theories and Far-rights groups protesting against Covid restrictions didn't have difficulty to spread from US to Canada. Now imagine if United States dissolve into a civil war, it's means that every wanna-be terrorists or rebels can easily be trained/equipped/supplied without any difficulty. Well we now from the movie, Canada is still intact: |
|
stevep
Fleet admiral
Posts: 24,841
Likes: 13,227
|
Post by stevep on Apr 19, 2024 20:55:11 GMT
I would say Canada is likely to survive and stay intact unless its openly attacked by one or other of the factions. In part because the chaos breaking out in the south is a damned good incentive for staying neutral and united. Also any open attack on Canada by a faction would make both Canada and whatever else is left of NATO hostile to that faction.
There is the possibility of terrorists being sent north of the border but not clear what the purpose would be and if their caught and identified again this gives Canada an incentive to be hostile.
It all depends on how rational or not the factions are as someone could decide to do something stupid and pick another fight but hopefully that won't happen. If we're assuming a continuation of current trends then the factions could be so obsessively focused on the US their too isolationist to look beyond its borders, at least for the moment.
|
|
lordroel
Administrator
Posts: 68,003
Likes: 49,405
|
Post by lordroel on Apr 20, 2024 9:33:57 GMT
I would say Canada is likely to survive and stay intact unless its openly attacked by one or other of the factions. In part because the chaos breaking out in the south is a damned good incentive for staying neutral and united. Also any open attack on Canada by a faction would make both Canada and whatever else is left of NATO hostile to that faction. There is the possibility of terrorists being sent north of the border but not clear what the purpose would be and if their caught and identified again this gives Canada an incentive to be hostile. It all depends on how rational or not the factions are as someone could decide to do something stupid and pick another fight but hopefully that won't happen. If we're assuming a continuation of current trends then the factions could be so obsessively focused on the US their too isolationist to look beyond its borders, at least for the moment.
Well Canada is always neutral, in The Handmaid's Tale TV series, Canada is neutral, even having British forces there to help them protect the country, i can see that here as well, mabey called it the British Army of Canada(BAOC). |
|
stevep
Fleet admiral
Posts: 24,841
Likes: 13,227
|
Post by stevep on Apr 20, 2024 11:23:14 GMT
I would say Canada is likely to survive and stay intact unless its openly attacked by one or other of the factions. In part because the chaos breaking out in the south is a damned good incentive for staying neutral and united. Also any open attack on Canada by a faction would make both Canada and whatever else is left of NATO hostile to that faction. There is the possibility of terrorists being sent north of the border but not clear what the purpose would be and if their caught and identified again this gives Canada an incentive to be hostile. It all depends on how rational or not the factions are as someone could decide to do something stupid and pick another fight but hopefully that won't happen. If we're assuming a continuation of current trends then the factions could be so obsessively focused on the US their too isolationist to look beyond its borders, at least for the moment.
Well Canada is always neutral, in The Handmaid's Tale TV series, Canada is neutral, even having British forces there to help them protect the country, i can see that here as well, mabey called it the British Army of Canada(BAOC).
Well given the time scale and government activity on defence and other matters - cutting the former and creating a massive debt and resource shortfall - in recent decades I'm not sure how much of the British army would be left.  |
|
lordroel
Administrator
Posts: 68,003
Likes: 49,405
|
Post by lordroel on Apr 20, 2024 11:55:19 GMT
Well given the time scale and government activity on defence and other matters - cutting the former and creating a massive debt and resource shortfall - in recent decades I'm not sure how much of the British army would be left. Well with the United States falling apart like Yugoslavia, time to dust of some plans, also we are speaking about a POD from 2020 onward with the movie playing somewhere in 2028-2030. |
|
ukron
Commander
"Beware of the French"
Posts: 1,433
Likes: 2,383
|
Post by ukron on Apr 20, 2024 16:05:50 GMT
Well given the time scale and government activity on defence and other matters - cutting the former and creating a massive debt and resource shortfall - in recent decades I'm not sure how much of the British army would be left. High chances it's going to be a NATO operation or at least an European defence intitiative. |
|
stevep
Fleet admiral
Posts: 24,841
Likes: 13,227
|
Post by stevep on Apr 20, 2024 16:15:33 GMT
Well given the time scale and government activity on defence and other matters - cutting the former and creating a massive debt and resource shortfall - in recent decades I'm not sure how much of the British army would be left. High chances it's going to be a NATO operation or at least an European defence intitiative.
Of course that would depend on what's happening elsewhere is the world. If Putin [or more likely his successor] or some other grouping is posing a threat to Europe - or if the lack of an external threat plus possible other factors means that Europe has fragmented it could be an issue raising such a force. However its most likely that aid to defend Canada against the chaos to the south would come from Europe.
|
|
lordroel
Administrator
Posts: 68,003
Likes: 49,405
|
Post by lordroel on Apr 20, 2024 17:32:09 GMT
High chances it's going to be a NATO operation or at least an European defence intitiative. Of course that would depend on what's happening elsewhere is the world. If Putin [or more likely his successor] or some other grouping is posing a threat to Europe - or if the lack of an external threat plus possible other factors means that Europe has fragmented it could be an issue raising such a force. However its most likely that aid to defend Canada against the chaos to the south would come from Europe.
With the collapse of the United States, i would see Europe coming together closer as not only do they have to face what is happening in the former United States, but also the thread in the East who now does not need worry about the Arsenal of Democracy challenging them. |
|
spiegel
Warrant Officer
Posts: 244
Likes: 269
|
Post by spiegel on Apr 21, 2024 11:48:42 GMT
What happen to the Astronauts in ISS been still around aside that war.
|
|
lordroel
Administrator
Posts: 68,003
Likes: 49,405
|
Post by lordroel on Apr 21, 2024 11:59:06 GMT
What happen to the Astronauts in ISS been still around aside that war. Think the Europeans and Russians will take over the ISS, with tensions leading up to the 2ACW the United States will redraw, especially with Texas and also Florida, two vital sites for NASA having succeeded from the United States. |
|
