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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Mar 5, 2021 4:30:50 GMT
I am wondering, although I am not really familiar with Margaret of Anjou, I only know her as the wife of Henry VI of England. What would the ramifications be if Margaret of Anjou had married into the House of Stuart or some other Scottish noble house, with the former resulting in her becoming Queen of Scotland instead of Queen of England?
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Mar 5, 2021 10:43:54 GMT
I am wondering, although I am not really familiar with Margaret of Anjou, I only know her as the wife of Henry VI of England. What would the ramifications be if Margaret of Anjou had married into the House of Stuart or some other Scottish noble house, with the former resulting in her becoming Queen of Scotland instead of Queen of England?
She seems to have been the dominant figure in her marriage to Henry VI so she could be a powerful figure in Scotland, which might however backfire - a strong foreign woman being seen as too powerful could become unpopular - but I don't know enough about Scottish history to tell.
Of course without her as queen in England who does Henry VI marry and how does that affect things? She was a significant figure and the driving element in the Lancastrian side in the War of the Roses but then since her hostility to the Duke of York was a factor in triggering the conflict. Possibly an alternative queen means it doesn't occur. In which case what happens with England? Is it fairly quiet under a weak and indecisive, possibly also mentally unstable Henry VI or does this mean there is the wealth and manpower available for foreign adventures, either possibly in Scotland or Ireland or seeking to revive the claim to the French throne?
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Mar 5, 2021 14:54:52 GMT
Would the Wars of Roses be butterflied away with a different Queen for Henry VI? Since Margaret of Anjou would be Queen of Scotland in this case, And Richard, Duke of York and OTL Edward IV’s father would still be alive in this case.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Mar 5, 2021 19:38:14 GMT
Would the Wars of Roses be butterflied away with a different Queen for Henry VI? Since Margaret of Anjou would be Queen of Scotland in this case, And Richard, Duke of York and OTL Edward IV’s father would still be alive in this case.
Possibly. I'm not really sure about the causes of it other than concerns about the incapacity of Henry VI and apparently Margaret seeking to sideline Richard.
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Mar 6, 2021 1:05:19 GMT
Though, I wonder if an England without the Wars of Roses would actually be a good thing in the long run or not.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Mar 6, 2021 13:00:04 GMT
Though, I wonder if an England without the Wars of Roses would actually be a good thing in the long run or not.
Good question. It would probably depend on what time-scale and good for whom? Not sure of the social effects of the war and whether it loosened the grip of the monarchy a bit, although the Tudor's managed to keep a very tight grip on power for most of the dynasty despite some very turbulent times.
In terms of the wider world without the devastation and huge losses of the civil war what does the English monarchy and leadership do? Is there more intervention on the continent. A new chance to subdue Ireland or remove the threat from Scotland? Those are the more obvious possibilities although Henry VI doesn't seem to have been a very aggressive monarch himself so while he's in charge probably only responding to perceived threats.
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Mar 6, 2021 19:48:06 GMT
I would think that an additional time that it took for the Wars of Roses to take place would have been invested better in the subjugation of Ireland, although at the same time, the Scots are also a major security issue that England itself had to deal with. On the topic of Scotland, it would depend on who Margaret of Anjou marries. If it was OTL James II of Scotland, then nothing much changes, except that future Stuart offspring will have the bloodline of the House of Anjou, instead of claiming descent from Philip the Good of Burgundy. A different bride for Henry VI wouldn't change much, other than the Yorkists wouldn't become prominent. Alternatively, we might have a different version of the Wars of Roses.....in Scotland instead, with the Stuarts against the Douglases.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Mar 7, 2021 12:47:22 GMT
I would think that an additional time that it took for the Wars of Roses to take place would have been invested better in the subjugation of Ireland, although at the same time, the Scots are also a major security issue that England itself had to deal with. On the topic of Scotland, it would depend on who Margaret of Anjou marries. If it was OTL James II of Scotland, then nothing much changes, except that future Stuart offspring will have the bloodline of the House of Anjou, instead of claiming descent from Philip the Good of Burgundy. A different bride for Henry VI wouldn't change much, other than the Yorkists wouldn't become prominent. Alternatively, we might have a different version of the Wars of Roses.....in Scotland instead, with the Stuarts against the Douglases.
There might still be issues in England because of Henry VI's reported incapacity/insanity although it might not lead to a bloody civil war. He might end up remembered as a very weak monarch under whom assorted blocs of nobles maneuvered for power and influence and a lot would depend on how his heir develops. Since assuming no civil war his children(s) are likely to live to maturity. There is a record of sons of weak monarchs proving to be powerful such as Henry II and Edward III so you could see a reaction against over-powerful nobles under him. Although since Henry VI came to the throne very young due to the death of his father that could be some way down the line.
A civil war in Scotland would be interesting. Depending on the situation in England you could see at least some of the northern nobles giving some support to the Douglas's in this case to avoid the Scottish monarchy being even more closely with France and France possibly intervening on the Stuart's side. [Either of those happening is going to encourage the other] Agree that tightening its grip on Ireland might be a better aim for the English state but a Scotland clearly under French domination would be a crucial issue. Mind you given how much of a fighter Margaret was OTL its likely she would be a very strong champion of the Stuart cause. Provided of course such an outspoken women doesn't upset too many nobles.
PS One thought that occurred to me. With the tension between France and Burgundy if Margaret goes north to Scotland instead of a Burgundian bride could Henry end up married to a Bungundian wife himself, both because she would be available and as an alliance move to protect against France? If so and Burgundy goes as OTL with Charles the Bold dying without a male heir could England end up with a claim to the Burgundian lands?? Which would really complicate matters. A hell of a lot of potential butterflies here.
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Mar 7, 2021 18:53:05 GMT
That would depend on if Henry VI does take a Burgundian wife. It might also be possible if that aforementioned Burgundian wife might take a husband from the Holy Roman Empire, leaving Henry VI with different options for a wife. An Italian one for sure, or an earlier marriage between an English king and a princess from either Castile, Aragon or Portugal. Most likely Portugal, due to the Anglo-Portuguese alliance that they have.
It might also be possible for the Yorkist faction to marry into the Douglas clan, if Henry VI is really concerned about neutralizing the Scots.
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Post by halferking on Apr 4, 2021 21:09:32 GMT
If Margaret were to marry in to the House of Stewart she would more than likely marry James II, King of Scots. James was a twin his older brother Alexander died in infancy propelling James upwards as the only surviving son of James I and Joan Beaufort (Queen Joan). He was made King, at the age of 6, when his Father met his end in a 'sewer'. With the death of his Father Scotland descended in to civil war with three noble families - the Crichtons, the Livingstons, and the Douglases - fighting to control the child king. In OTL James married Mary of Gueldres in 1449 and set about exacting retribution. He immediately confiscated the Livingston estates and established an uneasy truce with the Douglases, which didn't last long. James stabbed William, 8th Earl of Douglas, destroyed their family seat and confiscated their lands. He used the revenue to establish a 'strong and stable government'. James then turned his attention south to England. The English had renewed their interest in taking his Throne. He met them in battle and died when a cannon exploded at Roxbrugh Castle.
Margaret was married to Henry VI as part of a truce between England and France. Without that marriage it is possible that hostilities would continue or Henry VI would marry another French woman that could bring about peace. If not the ongoing conflict might drain England of resources, money and manpower which could leave her vulnerable to a Scottish attack.
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Apr 4, 2021 21:18:26 GMT
Is Joan Beaufort related to Margaret Beaufort, the mother of OTL Henry Tudor? Although if butterflies flap as a result of Margaret of Anjou marrying James II of Scotland, we may never see Henry Tudor at all. It could also be possible that Scotland might be the center of an alternate Wars of Roses equivalent.
Another possibility would be Henry VI marrying one of the Burgundian princesses, creating a different kind of conflict within the British Isles. If that were to occur, I could see England losing all of its French territories in Europe, including Calais and the Channel Islands, plus the formal title of Duke of Normandy going to the Valois dynasty. I can also see Scotland possibly expanding well into the old Hadrian’s Wall border as a result of a bigger English loss. Which may not go well for Ireland, if Henry VI would think of expanding into Ireland more aggressively.
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Post by halferking on Apr 5, 2021 5:42:40 GMT
Is Joan Beaufort related to Margaret Beaufort, the mother of OTL Henry Tudor? Although if butterflies flap as a result of Margaret of Anjou marrying James II of Scotland, we may never see Henry Tudor at all. It could also be possible that Scotland might be the center of an alternate Wars of Roses equivalent. Another possibility would be Henry VI marrying one of the Burgundian princesses, creating a different kind of conflict within the British Isles. If that were to occur, I could see England losing all of its French territories in Europe, including Calais and the Channel Islands, plus the formal title of Duke of Normandy going to the Valois dynasty. I can also see Scotland possibly expanding well into the old Hadrian’s Wall border as a result of a bigger English loss. Which may not go well for Ireland, if Henry VI would think of expanding into Ireland more aggressively.
Joan Beaufort, Queen of Scots was the daughter of John, 1st Earl of Somerset & Margaret Holland, which makes Joan the grand-daughter of John of Gaunt, 1st Duke of Lancaster and Catherine Swynford. Joan had several siblings and one of those was a brother - John Beaufort, 1st Duke of Somerset & 3rd Earl of Somerset.
John, 1st Duke of Somerset married a Margaret Beauchamp of Bletso. They had numerous children and one of them was a daughter named Lady Margaret Beaufort (born c. 1441). Lady Margaret married John de la Pole, 2nd Duke of Suffolk in 1450, they were married for about 3 years when their marriage was annulled. They had no children.Two years later she went on to marry Edmund Tudor, 1st Earl of Richmond, son of Owen Tudor and Catherine of Valois in 1455. This union bore fruit - a son - Henry Tudor.
So in answer to your question Joan Beaufort, Queen of Scots was the Aunt of Lady Margaret Beaufort - the mother of Henry VII.
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Apr 5, 2021 5:48:52 GMT
Do you think there could be a possible partition of England between Scotland and France if the 100YW continued without a political marriage to keep the peace? Because that would have been something unusual to see, with England completely expelled from the continent. Although we might also see England degenerating into a situation worse than OTL Wars of the Roses, only France and Scotland would select their puppets to fight over the English throne.
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Post by halferking on Apr 5, 2021 10:04:41 GMT
Do you think there could be a possible partition of England between Scotland and France if the 100YW continued without a political marriage to keep the peace? Because that would have been something unusual to see, with England completely expelled from the continent. Although we might also see England degenerating into a situation worse than OTL Wars of the Roses, only France and Scotland would select their puppets to fight over the English throne.
Henry VI and Charles VII signed the Treaty of Tours in 1444. The treaty included a two year truce as well as the betrothal of Margaret of Anjou to Henry VI. I don't know why England agreed to such a match as Margaret was considered to be a nobody a daughter of the impoverished Duke of Anjou, a very, very distant blood relation of Charles VII and on top of that she was Charles VII niece only through marriage. Charles VII took advantage of the truce to build up his military and in 1449 he finally pushed England out of France for good ending the 100 Years War. I don't think that Charles VII would seek to press his advantage as it seems the objective of French Kings was to take full control over their territory and establish a centralised government.The fall out of Henry VI defeat was one of the triggers for the War of the Roses. .
James II on the other hand was more amenable to the idea of gaining territory in England. He tried to purchase the Orkney Islands and the Shetland Islands from Norway and take the Isle of Man from the English, but both endeavour came to nought the Norse King wasn't interested and the Isle of Man too heavily defended. In OTL James inserted himself in the domestic affairs of his southern neighbour and acted as a 'peace broker' whilst at the same time trying to convince France to attack. When Henry VI was taken prisoner by the Yorkists Margaret of Anjou and her son fled north to Scotland. James sought to take advantage of chaos in England and looked to take back Roxbrugh Castle from the English. He might have succeeded and done more were it not for that cannon prematurely ending his life. That said James II had managed to make the Crown the dominant force in the Kingdom of Scotland.
James II had planted his flag firmly behind the House of Lancaster, his mother's House. His wife Mary of Guelders, great grand niece of Philip, Duke of Burgundy, was a staunch patriot of her adopted land and she was a shrewd strategist. When James II died at Roxbrugh Mary took over as regent for her young son James III.
Meanwhile in England things were not going well and the Lancastrians were defeated at the Battle of Towton. Prior to this battle Henry VI, who suffered from bouts of insanity, had disinherited his son Edward, Prince of Wales in favour of Richard, Duke of York much to Margaret's annoyance. As mentioned things did not go well for the Lancastrians at Towton in Yorkshire. The Yorkist Army had the wind in their favour which meant that their arrows travelled further. It was the opposite for the Lancastrians. The Battle was ten hours old when the Lancastrians started to flee. They took their armour off to make it quicker for them to run. Bad decision. At the end of the battle Lancastrian bodies were strew across the fields for at least 2.5 miles! With this devastating defeat Margaret and her son fled north to Scotland.
Mary initially took pity on Margaret and proposed a union between her daughter Margaret of Scotland and Margaret's son Edward. Unfortunately for Margaret and her son things took a turn for the worse when Edward IV became Duke of Burgundy's brother-in-law through the marriage between Philip and Edward's sister Margaret of York. Mary's continued relationship with Margaret of Anjou was seen as a problem as the Lancastrian Margaret was Edward's enemy and this could end the treaty England had with Burgundy against Louis XI of France.
If Margaret of Anjou was married to James II of Scotland instead of Henry VI of England that might change things. Edward IV favoured an alliance with Burgundy against France whilst the Earl of Warwick favoured an alliance with France and indeed Warwick had even tried to marry Edward off to a French Princess, only to find out that Edward had married Elizabeth Woodville in secret. If James II still dies at Roxbrugh Margaret, as Regent, may seek to take advantage of the division at the English Court. Relations between Edward IV and Warwick boiled over in to open rebellion and that would be a perfect time. She could side with Warwick and provide aid and perhaps in the process take some border towns from England...
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Apr 5, 2021 11:09:57 GMT
Is Joan Beaufort related to Margaret Beaufort, the mother of OTL Henry Tudor? Although if butterflies flap as a result of Margaret of Anjou marrying James II of Scotland, we may never see Henry Tudor at all. It could also be possible that Scotland might be the center of an alternate Wars of Roses equivalent. Another possibility would be Henry VI marrying one of the Burgundian princesses, creating a different kind of conflict within the British Isles. If that were to occur, I could see England losing all of its French territories in Europe, including Calais and the Channel Islands, plus the formal title of Duke of Normandy going to the Valois dynasty. I can also see Scotland possibly expanding well into the old Hadrian’s Wall border as a result of a bigger English loss. Which may not go well for Ireland, if Henry VI would think of expanding into Ireland more aggressively.
I don't know as if England stays united and given the wealth and power of Burgundy before Charles the Bold self destructed. Given a different set of circumstances which might avoid his clashing with the Swiss, or even being a radically different person then such a conflict could see either side win or simply exhaust both sides. I can't see France seeking to conquer England however. As halferking says its main aims would be unifying its claims under the dynasty so driving the rival Plantagenet's from France and then subduing Burgundy would be its main priority. After that Scotland, no matter how aggressive it is isn't a match for England so it can't push things too far beyond the usual border raiding and devastation.
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