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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Apr 6, 2021 4:59:15 GMT
Bloody hell, so if there was no truce that led to the OTL marriage between Henry VI and Margaret of Anjou, does that mean France will have a tougher time trying to expel England from the continent?
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Apr 6, 2021 10:43:44 GMT
Bloody hell, so if there was no truce that led to the OTL marriage between Henry VI and Margaret of Anjou, does that mean France will have a tougher time trying to expel England from the continent?
It could go any way. France could get a win against England, largely driving it from the continent then have a long war against Burgundy, which it might win, lose or end in a stalemate after a long and costly conflict. In which case Scotland could find itself very vulnerable. Or England without a civil war could be more successful on the continent, which ironically might be better for Scotland as its facing less English forces as the bulk of the latter are in France. In this case you could again see a stalemate with minor changes at heavy mutual costs, or either side eventually breaks to a greater or lesser degree. Your probably not going to see a total Anglo-Burgundian victory with say the Plantagenet replacing the Valois in Paris while Burgundy get more land from eastern France but you could see some relatively minor changes of land either way. Apart from anything else I think a French national identity, at least in its core territories around Paris and the Plantagenet's being clearly identified and identifying themselves as English is likely to be a serious barrier to that. Basically as the Wars of the Roses showed fortunes could change very easily in such periods with battles or treachery drastically changing the relative strength of the powers. Also possibly other external players being drawn in. As the old saying goes no plan survives contact with the enemy - or for that matter weather, disease, chance and a multiple of other factors.
A lot of course depends on the reaction of Burgundy and other 'French' fiefs about the continued war. France will win in driving England from the continent because of its greater resources and the English commitments elsewhere but if there is a fear that too strong a French monarchy will threaten their own autonomy - most noticeably for Burgundy but also places like Brittany and Province say - could become involved against that.
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Apr 7, 2021 0:49:58 GMT
In that case, I could see both England and France battering each other into exhaustion, and I could not think of any nation that could take advantage of a weakened England and France at the same time, except maybe Castile, Scotland, or Ireland. Could the Irish be able to expel England from the Pale around Dublin? Or would it be both Ireland and Scotland taking advantage of a weakened England and France? Although that too, could be unlikely. What I could suggest is that either Henry VI would marry a Burgundian princess, which could allow Margaret of Anjou to marry James II of Scotland, or Henry VI marrying some random French Ducal noblewoman from some random part of France, while possibly Richard, Duke of York, could marry the aforementioned Burgundian princess, but that would require a PoD that would prevent Richard from marrying Anne Neville.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Apr 7, 2021 15:20:36 GMT
In that case, I could see both England and France battering each other into exhaustion, and I could not think of any nation that could take advantage of a weakened England and France at the same time, except maybe Castile, Scotland, or Ireland. Could the Irish be able to expel England from the Pale around Dublin? Or would it be both Ireland and Scotland taking advantage of a weakened England and France? Although that too, could be unlikely. What I could suggest is that either Henry VI would marry a Burgundian princess, which could allow Margaret of Anjou to marry James II of Scotland, or Henry VI marrying some random French Ducal noblewoman from some random part of France, while possibly Richard, Duke of York, could marry the aforementioned Burgundian princess, but that would require a PoD that would prevent Richard from marrying Anne Neville.
That's definitely an option. Scotland would definitely like to take advantage of English weakness by raiding and possibly taking over some border regions. Many of the Irish lords might seek to maneuver for at least more power and possibly driving the English out. However remember this is prior to the reformation and England's OTL conversion to Protestantism so the religious issues isn't there and there are a fair number of people in the Pale who think of themselves as English since their ancestors have been there for generations in some cases so few of them are likely to welcome Gallic Irish overlords or the chaos and destruction that a conquest by them would probably bring. The 'Old English' as they were called IIRC were generally loyal until the period after Cromwell's reconquestion as the religious issue started to override all others and they were latter largely merged into the wider Irish population. See Normans_in_Ireland-Old_English for some brief details on them.
As such one potential case is that everybody ends up blooded and exhausted. Possibly even as badly as England and its possessions were by the OTL "War of the Roses".
If instead of a civil war in England there is a great war with France [with possibly Scotland as well] and Burgundy is a co-belligerent or potentially so then such a marriage between Richard of York and the Burgundian house could seem quite favourable and more important than to tie in the Neville's to the war effort. Or alternatively Anne could marry Edward, Prince of Wales, the son of Henry VI, which was her intended husband until he died and Warwick made his deal with the Yorkists by marrying Anne to Richard. See Anne_Neville for a brief summary. Although possibly if Edward survived he might be destined for a Burgundian bride as he would be the more valuable catch and also Burgundy a more important connection for him and Anne still ends up marrying one of the York house.
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Post by halferking on Apr 7, 2021 19:14:49 GMT
Bloody hell, so if there was no truce that led to the OTL marriage between Henry VI and Margaret of Anjou, does that mean France will have a tougher time trying to expel England from the continent? Charles used the peace and subsequent extensions to build up his military which gave him the necessary force to push the English out once and for all and unify France. The truce in OTL did collapse in 1449 and whilst the English suffered a minor loss at the Battle of Castillon in 1453, it was enough to effectively end the 100 YW. Charles VII set about reorganising France and all Burgundian sympathisers were replaced in Parlement.
Stevep is right when he says it could go either way.
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Apr 8, 2021 0:45:15 GMT
They did manage to push the English out of France, except for Calais, which didn't fall until 1558. Did France have the manpower to capture Calais as well? Because that should have been captured by Charles, along with the other English possessions in France, and the Channel Islands as well.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Apr 8, 2021 11:39:41 GMT
They did manage to push the English out of France, except for Calais, which didn't fall until 1558. Did France have the manpower to capture Calais as well? Because that should have been captured by Charles, along with the other English possessions in France, and the Channel Islands as well.
It may be that Calais was rather isolated at the time as to its immediate east was Burgundian territory so effectively a land peninsula. Coupled with some good defences and it would take a fair bit of effort. After all it took Edward III nearly a year IIRC to take it in the 1st place. Not sure why the French never took the Channel Is as I don't think England had any sort of naval superiority then? Or simply gained them as part of Normandy in an peace settlement?
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Post by halferking on Apr 8, 2021 19:17:54 GMT
They did manage to push the English out of France, except for Calais, which didn't fall until 1558. Did France have the manpower to capture Calais as well? Because that should have been captured by Charles, along with the other English possessions in France, and the Channel Islands as well. By 1259 England controlled almost two thirds of France so being able to reduce English control to just 20 sq miles (52 sq km) was a pretty impressive feat yes it took almost a century, but you know what they say Rome wasn't built in a day...
I think that Burgundy and France wanted control over the port, but neither dare try to take it so they just settled for English control. There were no natural defences in the Pale of Calais so England had to establish forts and in 1558 Henri II of France was able to overwhelm these defences. The speed at which the French managed it shocked Thomas, Lord Wentworth, the Governor of Calais, that he surrendered the city. I believe that from start to finish it took the French about 7 days to take the territory.
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Apr 9, 2021 1:07:37 GMT
7 days to capture Calais? That's an epic achievement.
IOTL, Britain still has the Channel Islands, which was historically a part of the Duchy of Normandy, so theoretically, the British monarchs would still be allowed to call themselves the Dukes of Normandy. I was wondering if in a scenario where there is no truce between England and France, resulting in a bigger slugfest between the two that eventually leads to France conquering the Channel Islands in addition to mainland Normandy. The prestige of having the title of Duke of Normandy would have been immense enough to grant that title to either the firstborn son of the reigning French king, or the second born son.
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Post by halferking on Apr 9, 2021 4:30:40 GMT
7 days to capture Calais? That's an epic achievement. IOTL, Britain still has the Channel Islands, which was historically a part of the Duchy of Normandy, so theoretically, the British monarchs would still be allowed to call themselves the Dukes of Normandy. I was wondering if in a scenario where there is no truce between England and France, resulting in a bigger slugfest between the two that eventually leads to France conquering the Channel Islands in addition to mainland Normandy. The prestige of having the title of Duke of Normandy would have been immense enough to grant that title to either the firstborn son of the reigning French king, or the second born son. The English Kings preferred to use the title King of France rather than the Duke of Normandy. It would depend on the state of domestic politics as to whether the French could take the Channel Islands, but there is no reason to suggest that they couldn't have tried.
Today there is no dispute between the UK and France over whose territory the Channel Islands are, albeit they are self governing Crown dependencies.
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Apr 10, 2021 5:46:52 GMT
The last British King who held on the claim of the French crown gave it up in 1801, or so I believe. It is the same guy who lost the Thirteen Colonies to the newly created United States.
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Post by halferking on Apr 10, 2021 8:23:38 GMT
The last British King who held on the claim of the French crown gave it up in 1801, or so I believe. It is the same guy who lost the Thirteen Colonies to the newly created United States. George III, the first English born, English speaking Hanoverian King. His title was modified in 1801 to reflect the incorporation of the Kingdom of Ireland in to the United Kingdom of Great Britain. His Majesty George III William Frederick was until 1801 styled By the Grace of God, King of Great Britain, France and Ireland, Defender of the Faith, Archtreasurer and Prince-Elector of the Holy Roman Empire, Duke of Brunswick-Luneburg After the Act of Union 1801 By the Grace of God, King of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, Defender of the Faith, Archtreasurer and Prince-Elector of the Holy Roman Empire, Duke of Brunswick-LuneburgIn 1814 By the Grace of God, King of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, Defender of the Faith, King of Hanover, Duke of BrunswickThe Hanoverians retained possession of the Duchy of Brunswick-Luneburg, land in north western Germany encompassing the two cities of Brunswick and Luneburg until their German lands were reorganised by the Congress of Vienna to include additional territory of the Calenberg-Celle branch of the House of Welf to create the Kingdom of Hanover. From George I to William IV the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland was in a personal union with the Kingdom of Hanover, but under Salic Law the title King of Hanover could only pass to the male heir therefore when Victoria succeeded her uncle William IV the union was broken and her other uncle Ernest Augustus, Duke of Cumberland became King of Hanover.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Apr 10, 2021 9:45:13 GMT
The last British King who held on the claim of the French crown gave it up in 1801, or so I believe. It is the same guy who lost the Thirteen Colonies to the newly created United States.
halferking, gave some more details but yes it was George III in both cases. As I understand it the monarchy gave up the claim on the French throne as part of the Treaty_of_Amiens in 1802 when Britain and France briefly made peace. Which made sense as it had been a token claim for the past 3-4 centuries which there was never any hope of making anything more of it. Plus as well as a good point in mollifying Napoleon either side of that short period of peace we were recognising the claims of the Bourbon dynasty as the French kings so it was rather counter productive still making such a claim. Although reading through the wiki article it doesn't mention the claim to the French throne.
A bit like the fact the titles for the British monarch still includes the phase "defender of the faith" despite the fact this was initially given by the Pope to Henry VIII when he took a clear anti-Protestant stance before of course he needed a divorce which lead to a break with Rome.
Steve
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Post by halferking on Apr 10, 2021 10:41:42 GMT
According to Burke's Peerage Edward III (1327-1377) is the first to be styled Rex Angliae et Franciae et Dominus Hiberniae.
Edward of Windsor (Edward III) was son of Edward II and Isabella of France, the daughter of Philip IV the Fair of France and Joan I of Navarre. I assume this is where the claim to the Throne of France originates and why Edward III was proclaimed King of France...
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Apr 10, 2021 11:51:03 GMT
According to Burke's Peerage Edward III (1327-1377) is the first to be styled Rex Angliae et Franciae et Dominus Hiberniae. Edward of Windsor (Edward III) was son of Edward II and Isabella of France, the daughter of Philip IV the Fair of France and Joan I of Navarre. I assume this is where the claim to the Throne of France originates and why Edward III was proclaimed King of France...
Yes both Edward and Phillip Valois were claimants to the French throne after Charles IV died in 1328. Edward had the closest claim but that was via his mother and there was a dispute over whether an inheritance could be passed down to the son via the mother. See the 1st part of Philip_VI_of_France for some details. I did read once that Phillip was actually a chief member of French barons and prelates this discussed the issue so it could be said to it was a case of "well, where agreed that Edward can't inherit so that means, Oh that makes me king."
Technically the current Duke of Normandy is Queen Elizabeth II. Yes I do mean Duke and not Duchess. Don't ask me why.
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