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Post by halferking on Apr 10, 2021 18:06:06 GMT
Her Majesty is known as the Duke of Lancaster too. The Channel Islanders are the only people (I think) to refer to The Queen as the Duke of Normandy. I have no idea why either I think it's just tradition...
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Apr 11, 2021 0:34:34 GMT
In that case, I would think that a marriage between Margaret of Anjou and James II of Scotland would have enhanced the Auld Alliance a lot more, which could also result in England and Burgundy being nominal allies, though that alliance wouldn't last.
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Post by halferking on Apr 11, 2021 7:58:19 GMT
In that case, I would think that a marriage between Margaret of Anjou and James II of Scotland would have enhanced the Auld Alliance a lot more, which could also result in England and Burgundy being nominal allies, though that alliance wouldn't last. In OTL James II was married to Mary of Guelders, daughter of Arnold of Egmond, Duke of Guelders and Catherine of Cleves and after Margaret of Anjou and her son fled north the political situation in England had changed Edward IV was in an alliance with Mary's uncle Philip, Duke of Burgundy against Louis XI of France. This alliance temporarily ended the Auld Alliance. The Auld Alliance, itself, was weighted in favour of France. France had to do very little whereas Scotland, a tiny impoverished Kingdom, had to bear the considerable financial cost of any war between England and Scotland. Margaret of Anjou would probably feel some sense of loyalty to Louis XI, they were cousins after all, and unlike OTL she has no skin in the game when it comes to the dynastic squabbles south of the border therefore she did not need to rely on Louis to help press her son's claim to the Throne of England, which could make the relationship more equal. I guess Margaret is freer than Mary was to make decisions and therefore she would have to weigh up if the value of an alliance with France and risk angering England is greater than concentrating her efforts on unifying Scotland for her son. It is possible that she could say 'Look Cuz do you want me to help you, if you do these are my terms' and she could exact a huge price, on threat of entering in to an alliance with England and thus Burgundy, from him as he would be the one in need of the alliance. More money in the Royal treasury for Scotland would be very welcome. The only problem Margaret would face is trying to get her Nobles on side. |
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Apr 11, 2021 8:05:10 GMT
What year would it be appropriate for the marriage between Margaret of Anjou and James II of Scotland to occur? Just wondering if we need to find a PoD for such a thing. Also, how much territory does Burgundy control at this point? I can understand why it was contested IOTL between Spain, Austria, and France, but what can come out of an Anglo-Burgundian alliance that manages to survive? Heck, if either Richard, Duke of York or Henry VI marries a Burgundian princess, what are the odds that the offspring of either the Lancastrian Henry VI or the Yorkist Richard could inherit Burgundy, if it’s main ruler dies without a viable male heir?
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Apr 11, 2021 14:16:00 GMT
What year would it be appropriate for the marriage between Margaret of Anjou and James II of Scotland to occur? Just wondering if we need to find a PoD for such a thing. Also, how much territory does Burgundy control at this point? I can understand why it was contested IOTL between Spain, Austria, and France, but what can come out of an Anglo-Burgundian alliance that manages to survive? Heck, if either Richard, Duke of York or Henry VI marries a Burgundian princess, what are the odds that the offspring of either the Lancastrian Henry VI or the Yorkist Richard could inherit Burgundy, if it’s main ruler dies without a viable male heir?
This map shows the maximum extend of its territory in tan when Charles the Bold's rash actions lead to his downfall and the loss of the original Ducky of Burgundy, which is west of the red line in the centre of the map. There is a larger scale map of it map2. He had blundered into a number of disastrous clashes with the Swiss when he tried marching mercenaries from Italy through their lands, the 1st time the world learnt of the lethality of Swiss pike formations. Then he tried to conquer the Duchy of Lorraine to link up his territories better but died in the attempt. France occupied the old county of Burgundy and possible some of the lands in the north while the Hapsburg's inherited most of the rest.
It had started off markedly smaller, based around the Dijon region but had gained much of the current region of Belgium and the Netherlands. There is a summary of it Burgundian_State_Territorial_expansion. This gives some details of when it expanded, especially under Charles's father Philip the Good.
Steve
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Apr 11, 2021 20:11:45 GMT
Judging by how the marriage between Margaret of York and Charles the Bold would have gone, that would be a good motivator for France to put a stop to it. An offspring of both Margaret of York and Charles the Bold would have been a good candidate to inherit both England, and Burgundy, which would have frightened not only France, but even the HRE as well. Ironically, if Margaret of York and Charles the Bold had more children, one of those kids could have married any offspring that would have been sired by Margaret of Anjou and James II of Scotland, ironically connecting the former to the Yorkists, instead of the Lancastrian Henry VI as in OTL.
I would have thought that maybe if Charles the Bold had been smarter in his later campaign against the Duchy of Lorraine, he would have set up a more stable succession upon his death.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Apr 12, 2021 15:33:32 GMT
Judging by how the marriage between Margaret of York and Charles the Bold would have gone, that would be a good motivator for France to put a stop to it. An offspring of both Margaret of York and Charles the Bold would have been a good candidate to inherit both England, and Burgundy, which would have frightened not only France, but even the HRE as well. Ironically, if Margaret of York and Charles the Bold had more children, one of those kids could have married any offspring that would have been sired by Margaret of Anjou and James II of Scotland, ironically connecting the former to the Yorkists, instead of the Lancastrian Henry VI as in OTL. I would have thought that maybe if Charles the Bold had been smarter in his later campaign against the Duchy of Lorraine, he would have set up a more stable succession upon his death.
If Charles the bold had been smarter he probably wouldn't have gotten into such a mess that led to his early death in battle and the crippling of the state militarily. For instance after the 1st defeat by the Swiss possibly he realises "those guys are bloody formidable" and seeks to hire them as mercenaries. Or at the very least try and get permission for the passage of future mercenaries through Swiss territory. Albeit the latter might have needed a good bit of cash being passed its better than have those expensive troops being slaughtered in trying to get to him, let alone the loss of face in such defeats.
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Apr 13, 2021 2:35:45 GMT
Wasn't Charles the Bold trying to recreate the old Kingdom of Lotharingia with his attempts to conquer the Duchy of Lorraine and bits of northwestern Switzerland?
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Apr 13, 2021 10:05:53 GMT
Wasn't Charles the Bold trying to recreate the old Kingdom of Lotharingia with his attempts to conquer the Duchy of Lorraine and bits of northwestern Switzerland?
Well he would have ended up with the northern parts of Lotharingia if he had succeeded. However I think it was more an intent to establish a unified state and establish it as a separate kingdom. He definitely wasn't going to try to control the Italian territory of that state as that would be beyond his power.
I think its more that commentators, where at the time or more recently, compared the sort of state he was seeking to Lotharingia rather than he himself saying anything like that. I could well be wrong here but that's the impression I get. Apart from anything else any such comparison would have angered many powerful states as it would be seen as a threat to both the Swiss, the states in N Italy and anybody who had claims on the latter.
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Apr 14, 2021 0:46:27 GMT
Was Burgundy's very position the reason why France, England, Spain, and Austria were fighting over it?
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Post by halferking on Apr 14, 2021 3:58:07 GMT
What year would it be appropriate for the marriage between Margaret of Anjou and James II of Scotland to occur? Just wondering if we need to find a PoD for such a thing. Also, how much territory does Burgundy control at this point? I can understand why it was contested IOTL between Spain, Austria, and France, but what can come out of an Anglo-Burgundian alliance that manages to survive? Heck, if either Richard, Duke of York or Henry VI marries a Burgundian princess, what are the odds that the offspring of either the Lancastrian Henry VI or the Yorkist Richard could inherit Burgundy, if it’s main ruler dies without a viable male heir? In OTL James II married Mary of Guelders in July 1449 since James II and Margaret of Anjou were born five months apart (Margaret in March and James in October) that would seem an appropriate time both would be around the same age she 19 he 18 so any time between 1445 and 1450. In OTL Margaret was 15 (1445) when she married Henry VI. |
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Post by halferking on Apr 14, 2021 4:20:33 GMT
Was Burgundy's very position the reason why France, England, Spain, and Austria were fighting over it? Charles the Bold, from what I have read, intended to unite the Burgundian possessions through the annexation of Lorraine. Louis XI had other ideas. With the English, Spanish and Austrians I think it was more about succession. |
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Apr 14, 2021 4:44:03 GMT
What year would it be appropriate for the marriage between Margaret of Anjou and James II of Scotland to occur? Just wondering if we need to find a PoD for such a thing. Also, how much territory does Burgundy control at this point? I can understand why it was contested IOTL between Spain, Austria, and France, but what can come out of an Anglo-Burgundian alliance that manages to survive? Heck, if either Richard, Duke of York or Henry VI marries a Burgundian princess, what are the odds that the offspring of either the Lancastrian Henry VI or the Yorkist Richard could inherit Burgundy, if it’s main ruler dies without a viable male heir? In OTL James II married Mary of Guelders in July 1449 since James II and Margaret of Anjou were born five months apart (Margaret in March and James in October) that would seem an appropriate time both would be around the same age she 19 he 18 so any time between 1445 and 1450. In OTL Margaret was 15 (1445) when she married Henry VI. That could be a good PoD, although another PoD that should go with this would be a different bride for Henry VI. Any good candidates so far? |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Apr 14, 2021 14:43:27 GMT
Was Burgundy's very position the reason why France, England, Spain, and Austria were fighting over it? Charles the Bold, from what I have read, intended to unite the Burgundian possessions through the annexation of Lorraine. Louis XI had other ideas. With the English, Spanish and Austrians I think it was more about succession.
Yes plus the initial Burgundian core province around Dijon and also much of Flanders were historically French provinces so Charles's desire to make them an independent kingdom was something the French monarchy opposed. After England was largely driven from the continent and the effective end of the 100 Year's War I'm not sure what its view was but friendship/alliance with Burgundy as both had issues with Valois France seems quite likely. The HRE could go either way, seeing a powerful independent Burgundian state as either a rival or a useful buffer against French power.
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Post by stevep on Apr 14, 2021 14:58:19 GMT
In OTL James II married Mary of Guelders in July 1449 since James II and Margaret of Anjou were born five months apart (Margaret in March and James in October) that would seem an appropriate time both would be around the same age she 19 he 18 so any time between 1445 and 1450. In OTL Margaret was 15 (1445) when she married Henry VI. That could be a good PoD, although another PoD that should go with this would be a different bride for Henry VI. Any good candidates so far?
Well OTL Henry VI married Margaret in 1445, in part to try and ease tensions with his rival for the French throne, her father but that obviously didn't work. If that isn't an option here, for whatever reason and she marries James II of Scotland then some other noble house, preferably in either a part of France that might be unhappy with Charles VII's rule over France. Philip_the_Good didn't have legitimate daughters and had anyhow defected from a pro-English to a pro-French alliance in 1435 so Burgundy is out, at least unless you have him stay allied to England, in which case a lot else might change. Possibly Brittany or somewhere in the south but not sure what options were available. Otherwise possibly a marriage with one of the Iberian kingdoms? However not sure who would have been available at this point. Also since Henry, without major changes in his personality would seem to be a weak king even without what appeared to be periods of madness.
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