stevep
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Post by stevep on Aug 25, 2022 18:53:46 GMT
Georgia, Armenia *and* Azerbaijan ISOT to 12 noon Moscow time June 5th 1944 from the same day and time in 1994. Zyobot ,
That is likely to end badly for them, albeit they will put up a hell of a fight against the Red Army. They simply don't have the numbers and are cut off from their suppliers and contacts from 1994. By this time the allies are clearly winning so Stalin is definitely going to put a lot of effort into 'regaining the rebellious republics' probably especially Azerbaijan because it isolates the USSR from its main 1944 oil source and I think at least some of the L-L sent via Iran. I doubt that Roosevelt, with the D-Day landings just about to start and Stalin still needed as an ally will do anything but throw them to the Soviet wolves. Britain is in a similar position and also lacks any real power on relations between the allies and the Soviets at this stage even if Churchill might wish to.
The distraction might save part of eastern Europe from Soviet occupation although not massively. They will definitely have an occupation zone in Germany after the war which will give them an argument for control of Poland and Czechoslovakia. Plus with Tito being supported by the western powers and American hostility to any western actions in the Balkans its unlikely borders will be affected much there. The region will still be largely left for Soviet 'liberation'. Possibly you might get a deal between Churchill and Stalin as OTL which leaves Bulgaria in the western rather than de-facto in the eastern sphere. This would save them and also give a defensive border on the lower Danube but could conversely mean that Turkey never joins any NATO equivalent.
One other issues is that if news leaks out of 'future' events leaks out then you might see an earlier cold war and possibly more support by the US for the KMT in China. Plus possibly that Korean ends up fully in the western sphere.
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melanie
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Post by melanie on Aug 26, 2022 14:14:31 GMT
Doug Muir (one time soc.history.what-if Usenet newsgroup poster) assessment of what would have happened had Hitler died right after the Munich Agreement is rather sobering.
Melanie: I personally also wonder what such a Germany - that would include Austria, the Sudetenland, and the Oder-Neisse territories (Eastern Brandenburg, Silesia, Eastern Pomerania, Danzig, East Prussia) would be like in the alternate present day?
“You see a lot of changes. First WW2 (if it happens) is delayed as the Nazis fight it out for power, Not so much a true civil war but probably something like you get in the USSR after Stalin. A bit of infighting then time to gather control by the winner. So WW2 is delayed probably a year. Maybe longer.
It could also look a LOT different, As the particular brand of crazy that was Hitler was not exactly the same as the brand of crazy the other leaders had. So you at least see no invasion of the USSR until the west is secure or whatever. It is hard to say and depends a lot on who you favor to come out on top.
Add in that this delay while the fight to replace Hitler will result in a bit different technology. And could easily see Japan fighting GB/France/The USA/the Western Allies before Germany starts the war and this could snowball.
Sadly this probably means that a lot of folks look back fondly at one of the biggest monsters in history. First off he didn’t start the war, second he didn’t set up the death camps as we would come to know them yet. And his “defenders” will have an easier time white washing his record. And don’t forget the tendency to look fondly on the dead. Look at JFK. He was at best a slightly above average president for the time but he is almost deified by many and all because he died. If he had lived who knows how he would have been viewed.
So Hitler will be viewed much better. Heck we will probably see a whole series of folks talking how great things would have been if only Hitler had lived long enough to lead Germany into the future..
And if the thought of a German equivalent to the US Civil War “Lost Cause” myth resulting in stories of how great Hitler was and roads named after him and statues of him doesn’t cause you to throw up a bit I don’t know what will.”
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melanie
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Post by melanie on Aug 28, 2022 7:28:07 GMT
The total of the Polish Second Republic: 13 September 1932 to 13 September 1942.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Aug 28, 2022 14:48:57 GMT
The total of the Polish Second Republic: 13 September 1932 to 13 September 1942.
Not good. A very confused 1932 Poland gets overrun by Nazi forces after probably a couple of weeks of fighting, then probably within a couple of years gets 'liberated'  by the Red army. Since their appearance is going to remove a lot of the German military, and supply lines to their forces on the Eastern front. Your going to have a fair number of Poles who for whatever reason weren't in the region at the time now having younger versions of themselves around, provided that both of them survive the rest of the war. Which is going to cause some issues in terms of family identity and the like.
While the supply lines for the main German forces in the south currently attacking Stalingrad and the Caucasus region may be largely unaffected as they could run south of the affected area supplies will have to be diverted to those across the rest of the eastern front and also those units pulled together to crush the suddenly re-emerged Poland so there will be material disruption as well as impacts on morale. Plus the areas is now a decade earlier in terms of infrastructure which overall, despite wartime destruction is going to be inferior which will cause issues for the Germans again when their overrun the region. The extermination camps, which were mainly in Poland have been lost and would have to be rebuilt and a lot of their victims who were born prior to 1932 are probably alive again but hopefully will have better luck this time although I fear a lot will still die.
Its possible that Hitler or some other major figures might be affected if their in or traveling through/over the region when the ISOT occurs. Know that at one time Hitler was having generals fly back to the Wolf's Lair virtually on a daily basis IIRC to argue for their actions so this could happen to someone. If Hitler was gone in such a way then everything could be up in the air. Goring was the most likely to succeed him but there could be a power struggle.
Its a bit early for the Torch landings so they could be a bit more successful TTL as the Germans could be in no position to respond as they did OTL and a quick fall of the Tunis region could speed things up significantly although that would also mean less experience gained, especially for the US military. However I think the main gainers will be the Soviets for the reasons stated. At least unless the event prompts Hitler to be a bit more cautious and pull back units earlier but that would be wildly out of character for him.
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melanie
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Post by melanie on Aug 28, 2022 18:42:24 GMT
Here's Poland's borders when sent from 1932 to 1942. By the way, what happens to the 1942 Eastern Front? Oh and all the concentration, slave labour, and death camps built in Poland in the three years since 1939 are gone: What will the Soviets do?  |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Aug 29, 2022 12:17:01 GMT
Here's Poland's borders when sent from 1932 to 1942. By the way, what happens to the 1942 Eastern Front? Oh and all the concentration, slave labour, and death camps built in Poland in the three years since 1939 are gone: What will the Soviets do?
Mentioned that in my reply. Their all gone although a good number of their victims, along with some of the mass shootings are alive again but may not be that safe for long.
Also mentioned briefly the impact on the eastern front. AGS with the attack on Stalingrad and the Caucasus regions may not be too directly affected if their supply lines go through Romania say. However Germany is going to need to find forces to occupy the restored Poland and also the supply lines for AGN & AGC are screwed over. Their largely on the defensive and I don't think that the Soviets are in much position to put pressure on them. However coupled with the loss of resources from the occupied area of Poland its going to seriously impact German actions in the east.
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Zyobot
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Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
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Post by Zyobot on Aug 29, 2022 14:16:59 GMT
‘1942 Axis Powers And United States To 1812’.
In other words: Germany, Italy, and Japan get sent back, with the only America to stand between them and the subjugation of Eurasia. (Napoleon and France are, of course, sidelined and neutralized before the US can really get up and moving, though I’m guessing Hitler would pull out all the stops to meet his idol and make sure he’s unharmed.)
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melanie
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Post by melanie on Aug 29, 2022 16:32:51 GMT
Every single plane and spare part in the Soviet Air force as of 12:01 June 5th 1942 vanishes. Soviet ground forces and the Soviet Navy are unaffected.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Aug 30, 2022 9:24:21 GMT
‘1942 Axis Powers And United States To 1812’. In other words: Germany, Italy, and Japan get sent back, with the only America to stand between them and the subjugation of Eurasia. (Napoleon and France are, of course, sidelined and neutralized before the US can really get up and moving, though I’m guessing Hitler would pull out all the stops to meet his idol and make sure he’s unharmed.)
Well they will get pretty much all of Eurasia, probably including Britain, but its going to be of little use to them with 1812 population.
Question, is it literally those four nations or does it include territory they control? If the former then they have lost all forces and resources from outside their territories which for Germany and Japan especially will hurt them. Plus no oil sources available for Germany [other than its synthetic plants as Polesti isn't developed] and ditto for Japan with DEI. In which case it could be a long fight as neither side has resources to really hurt the other. The US, if willing to fight alone, should have the edge given their opponents weaknesses in materials plus if nothing else they should reach the bomb not much later than OTL.
If the 4 nations do include occupied territory - possibly also other allies - most importantly Romania for the European Axis then I would say their going to have the edge until the US gets the bomb but the problem of projecting power to N America will be an issue for them. Most especially because both Germany and Japan have resources and developed conquered areas to add to their still existing military which isn't lost.
Of course it also matters what date in 1942.  |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Aug 30, 2022 9:26:07 GMT
Every single plane and spare part in the Soviet Air force as of 12:01 June 5th 1942 vanishes. Soviet ground forces and the Soviet Navy are unaffected.
Well that will screw over the Red Army. The Luftwaffe has even greater air superiority and the Reds no chance to intervene or even move say officers or orders by air behind the lines until new a/c are supplied. This could be very bad for the bulk of Europe.
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melanie
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Post by melanie on Aug 30, 2022 9:31:39 GMT
1903 Manchuria (in pink on this map) to 1989 PRC, just before the Tiananmen Square demonstrations?  |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Aug 30, 2022 9:38:17 GMT
1903 Manchuria (in pink on this map) to 1989 PRC, just before the Tiananmen Square demonstrations? View Attachment
Some very confused locals, Czarist troops and assorted missionaries and merchants from various countries discover the delights of becoming Chinese subjects.  |
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melanie
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Post by melanie on Aug 31, 2022 5:34:45 GMT
Having just re-watched what Q did to Captain Sisco on DS9 for making him mad:
Just before Tarkin gives the order to fire on Alderaan, every single person and creature on the Death Star permanently vanishes except for Tarkin himself, Leia, and Vader.
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melanie
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Post by melanie on Aug 31, 2022 13:39:42 GMT
What area would you like to bring to the modern day?
The Jerusalem area, to 1 km outside the walls of the Old City, sometime between the arrival and trial of Jesus. This will freak out:
* All Christians - we get to meet Jesus his own self and the Apostles.
* All Jews - the second Temple just reappeared.
* All Moslems - the Dome of the Rock just disappeared.
* All Israelis - they've had a major city disappear.
Let's go smaller...
Independence Hall, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, on September 15, 1787.
The Constitutional Convention met there to sign the final draft, which was then submitted to the states for ratification. Most of the Framers are there, including Washington, Hamilton, Franklin, Madison, Gouverneur Morris, and many others. At first no one will believe they are real, but it will be confirmed.
At which point there will be a huge crisis, because they will nearly all disagree with certain interpretations of the Constitution which are now deeply entrenched in American laws, mainly involving the Commerce Clause. And since they wrote the Constitution, and Madison wrote the Bill of Rights, it's going to be very hard to ignore them.
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melanie
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Post by melanie on Sept 9, 2022 11:21:23 GMT
stevep, ISOT query - if 1937 Poland was sent to 1987, how much of the damage done by Chernobyl will no longer exist?
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by the Red army. Since their appearance is going to remove a lot of the German military, and supply lines to their forces on the Eastern front. Your going to have a fair number of Poles who for whatever reason weren't in the region at the time now having younger versions of themselves around, provided that both of them survive the rest of the war. Which is going to cause some issues in terms of family identity and the like.
