stevep
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Post by stevep on Aug 23, 2024 14:15:20 GMT
Not really as its Germany occupying the vast majority of Belgium and as your arguing that no one has any power to drive it from an inch of Belgium territory. Your further arguing that the German capacity to enforce "worse terms" is basically unconstrained.
Well, it's a question of horse trading. Berlin might think getting a demilitarized Belgium and a Mittel-Afrika is more important than Channel Ports. I agree, but that also cuts both ways; the UK and Russia aren't going to impale themselves for France to retain Briey-Longwy, when the Germans have had it occupied continuously since August of 1914 for example. The existence of the French and Russian states are at stake even if they go on the defensive:By many lights, in fact, it was already doing so. By the middle of the war, the French had become heavily dependent on American food, and they ultimately received more aid than any ally. 15 The British were not far behind, and by 1918 they depended on U.S. and Canadian imports for almost two-thirds of their total food. 16 British dependence on imported food was not new, and even before the war imports had accounted for more than half of their food supply. 17 But the situation was quite different in France, which had been almost self-sufficient in the years before the war broke out, with French farmers producing upwards of 90 percent of the food eaten within their borders. 18 French agricultural production declined precipitously during the war, due both to fighting on French soil and to the fact that millions of French farmers and workers had been sent to the trenches. Importing and doling out adequate food quickly became a priority of the French government. 19 Plummeting French wheat production was an especially keen source of worry because French people in this era relied inordinately on bread, with contemporaries estimating that bread made up a staggering 70 percent of average French diets. 20 The government subsidized bread heavily during the war and set a price above which the cost of bread could not legally rise, because officials believed that a sharp rise in the price of the national staple would corrode morale and physically weaken those least able to afford it. 21 Yet there were problems with this strategy, and some argued that the low price ceiling for farmers' grain discouraged production. 22 Because of a combination of factors, by 1917 French farmers were producing less than half of the wheat demanded by French consumers. 23 French cultivation Pre-War was 60 million acres, and this had collapsed by half during the war: a net loss of 30 million acres. The British, with 18 million acres under cultivation, could only supply 40% of their needs, thus necessitating the importation of 27 million acres equivalent or 60% of their needs. Combined, that is 57 million acres. At the time, Admiral Sims cabled Navy Secretary Josephus Daniels on April 14, 1917, "Mr Hoover informs me that there is only sufficient grain supply in this country for three weeks. This does not include the supply in retail stores." Basically, if nothing else, the Entente was going to be starved out very quickly if no American intervention occurred.
a) That presumes that Germany is going to deal rather than demand everything as they did in the east. Also that the allies are going to trust Germany not to restart aggression once they have regrouped and repaired their economic mess.
b) All they need to do is to continuing opposing Germany plans. The CPs are struggling as well and given their limited tool-set they will seek repeated attacks on allied defences until their position collapses.
c) Food is as I said a big issue and I'm not sure how effectively it can be resolved. Assuming that Wilson is prepared to block exports the allies are going to struggle - although this does mean that he's blocking off American farmers from a lot of markets so there's going to be issues at home on that.
France has done what Germany did in over-militarizing although up until this point it could make up the shortfall by trade. Now it could well have to put more people back into farming and how quickly it can do that would be an issue. Also looking for other markets although none will be as productive and as geographically close as the US.
If food doesn't prove an overwhelming issue then the allies still have the forces to outlast the Germans and their allies as OTL.
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nomommsen
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Post by nomommsen on Aug 23, 2024 19:53:33 GMT
... it's esp. about what Wilson would have ... 'accepted' as for a peace (incorporation of Luxembourg as a memberstate of the Reich, Briey-Longwy ...)
But I will try to get my hands on your recommandation. THX
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ewellholmes
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Post by ewellholmes on Aug 24, 2024 4:38:07 GMT
a) That presumes that Germany is going to deal rather than demand everything as they did in the east. Also that the allies are going to trust Germany not to restart aggression once they have regrouped and repaired their economic mess. What I'm purposing is literally the initial German offer in the East IOTL; at Brest-Litovsk, the Germans first purposed Poland, Lithuania and Courland (plus Riga, IIRC). When the Bolsheviks refused to deal, it expanded into the greater demands they achieved later. Except they have no means of doing that in the long run. Germany and her allies lasted until October of 1918, the Allies can't last through the Winter of 1917-1918 at the absolute latest.
Not at all, there was actually a bad harvest in 1917 and the U.S. was only able to keep exporting to the Entente because of the institution of war-time rationing at home. With no war and no rationing, the U.S. will be consuming it's own harvest, so U.S. farmers won't be unduly harmed. Except France has no oil for mechanization, to disband its soldiers would leave it exposed to German attacks, and much of their cropland remains under German occupation. Except they don't, as I've already shown via numerous other goods, such as oil and finance. According to U.S. officials in the UK at the time of their entry into the war, the food supply on hand was only sufficient for six weeks.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Aug 24, 2024 13:02:46 GMT
a) That presumes that Germany is going to deal rather than demand everything as they did in the east. Also that the allies are going to trust Germany not to restart aggression once they have regrouped and repaired their economic mess. What I'm purposing is literally the initial German offer in the East IOTL; at Brest-Litovsk, the Germans first purposed Poland, Lithuania and Courland (plus Riga, IIRC). When the Bolsheviks refused to deal, it expanded into the greater demands they achieved later. Except they have no means of doing that in the long run. Germany and her allies lasted until October of 1918, the Allies can't last through the Winter of 1917-1918 at the absolute latest.
Not at all, there was actually a bad harvest in 1917 and the U.S. was only able to keep exporting to the Entente because of the institution of war-time rationing at home. With no war and no rationing, the U.S. will be consuming it's own harvest, so U.S. farmers won't be unduly harmed. Except France has no oil for mechanization, to disband its soldiers would leave it exposed to German attacks, and much of their cropland remains under German occupation. Except they don't, as I've already shown via numerous other goods, such as oil and finance. According to U.S. officials in the UK at the time of their entry into the war, the food supply on hand was only sufficient for six weeks.
a) Its possible that a Russian government other that Lenin's farce might accept that. In which case the German last gasp offensive in the west comes earlier and against stronger defences.
b) Food aside, as that is the big issue they clearly do have the capacity to continue fighting. At a somewhat reduced force strength but if they sit tight and avoid the wasteful offensives in 1917 they have a lot greater capacity than Germany.
c) In 1917 possibly but what happens when the harvests recover?
d) Who said anything about mechanization? I assume your talking about food production here?? They do have the capacity to release some men and horses from the front without scrapping the entire - or even most of their army. Some of France is occupied but the bulk is not. What is included a lot of the industrial region which France has responded to by building new industrial capacity elsewhere.
e) No you haven't. They would have to reduce oil consumption but not cut it totally. The US trade barriers would mean they can no longer get goods from there, or finance but that neither has Germany for the previous 2-3 years and it hasn't collapsed. Food is the big unknown but the other issues can be managed. Whether Germany can force the decisive military victory it desires is a big issue and I would say the evidence is that their likely to fail in trying.
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ewellholmes
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Post by ewellholmes on Sept 1, 2024 17:53:04 GMT
a) Its possible that a Russian government other that Lenin's farce might accept that. In which case the German last gasp offensive in the west comes earlier and against stronger defences. I suggested those terms within the scenario of the Entente as a whole cutting a deal in early to mid 1917 before things get progressively worse for them, so there would be no "last gasp offensive" because the Germans have already won. If the Entente doesn't cut a deal, then the Germans will face increasingly weaker opponents as time goes on. Except every department of the British Government said they were going to collapse without access to American finance and purchasing, and the French President is on record saying the loss of American oil alone would be enough to collapse the French Army. Nothing? Farmers have control over how much they plant and can prepare accordingly if they expect lower demand in 1918. Without access to American oil, things like mechanized agriculture are not possible which would necessity mass releases of manpower and horses to make up for that, which is not possible. By many lights, in fact, it was already doing so. By the middle of the war, the French had become heavily dependent on American food, and they ultimately received more aid than any ally. 15 The British were not far behind, and by 1918 they depended on U.S. and Canadian imports for almost two-thirds of their total food. 16 British dependence on imported food was not new, and even before the war imports had accounted for more than half of their food supply. 17 But the situation was quite different in France, which had been almost self-sufficient in the years before the war broke out, with French farmers producing upwards of 90 percent of the food eaten within their borders. 18 F rench agricultural production declined precipitously during the war, due both to fighting on French soil and to the fact that millions of French farmers and workers had been sent to the trenches. Importing and doling out adequate food quickly became a priority of the French government. 19 Plummeting French wheat production was an especially keen source of worry because French people in this era relied inordinately on bread, with contemporaries estimating that bread made up a staggering 70 percent of average French diets. 20 The government subsidized bread heavily during the war and set a price above which the cost of bread could not legally rise, because officials believed that a sharp rise in the price of the national staple would corrode morale and physically weaken those least able to afford it. 21 Yet there were problems with this strategy, and some argued that the low price ceiling for farmers' grain discouraged production. 22 Because of a combination of factors, by 1917 French farmers were producing less than half of the wheat demanded by French consumers. 23 Steve, we have already been over this; there are no alternative suppliers nor any viable path to reducing consumption via cuts. The Royal Navy had already reduced as much as it could as I've shown, so what other cuts are you proposing? Likewise as I've already shown, Germany survived because it had access to Rumania and Galician oil while also having lower consumption because it doesn't have a fleet as large as the UK nor is it as mechanized as their opponents. Without access to American finance and purchasing, the universal conclusion among the Entente was their armies would collapse and the Germans would have decisive success. The weight of historical evidence and research shows this was the correct conclusion.
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nomommsen
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Post by nomommsen on Sept 8, 2024 9:19:04 GMT
Among other sources yes. ...
Then you very likely also know that the war aims actually pursued by the goverment (esp. of Bethmann-Hollweg) were very adaptable to the changing situations. When Wilson started his 'peace diplomacy' in 1916 Bethmann-Hollweg was very much prepared - against the loud shouting hypernationals like Tirpitz, Ludendorff or Ludwig III, ( one of the IMHO most shameless anexionists) - to let Belgium go back into independent neutrality.
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nomommsen
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Post by nomommsen on Sept 8, 2024 9:29:57 GMT
They might make such proposals, although given the hubris among the German leadership until the end of the war and their lack of honesty in the past would anyone expect them to hold to then. Britain would definitely seek to free at least a chunk of Belgium from German occupation, for itself and France's security as well as to ease the plight of the Belgians but whether they would keep them for any length of time is unclear.
Also I do notice that this German dominated Mitterlafrica included not only an annexed Belgium Congo and territory from British and French colonies, some at considerable distance from the core German/Belgium lands but also seizing Portuguese colonies as well.
... what 'exceptional' dishonesty you refer to here? ... the 'scrap of paper' statement assigned to Bethmann-Hollweg? ... which given i.e. the attitude of the british foreign policy regarding Luxembourg ( VEERY similar treaty as for Belgium). A policy rather well known since the treaty was 'relativated' even in the year it was signed by the 'Derby-Clarendon doctrine'.
However ... in the eyes of the german diplomacy rather Great Britain is the unhonest negotiator as they betrayed the conventions/treaties concluded regarding the portuguise colonies at least one time (1898) ( ... strangely there's no anglophone mention of these negotiations in wiki ... recommend using some translotor for the german entry) and it's rather doubtfull if they had kept the treaty of re-negotiated and conluded in 1913/14.It seems rather the german side has every / a lot of reason to distrust the Entente powers regarding their keeping of treaties.
For the second highlightend part:
Possible the german negotiators might refer to above mentioned very shortly prewar concluded and finalized ( final agreement of Beethmann-Hollweg to british conditions on 27th July) agreement about. ... possibly with an 'offer' to the british side if they actually would like this agreement seen published (selling away portuguise colonies another time ).
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nomommsen
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Post by nomommsen on Sept 8, 2024 9:34:20 GMT
... in the ruling elites ... ... who's capacity to rule were ever more detoriating from late 1916 ( notably the takeover of the 3rd OHL by the 'dynamic duo' ) with the Reichstag gaining more and more of a say as well as even the trade unions in their role keeping up war time production. Their participation now tightly written into law regarding military service exemption and the castration of the ' Gesetz über den vaterländischen Hilfsdienst' might serve as an indicator not to forget the Reichstag declarations against the 'leadersdhips' wishes.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Sept 8, 2024 9:49:30 GMT
Among other sources yes. ...
Then you very likely also know that the war aims actually pursued by the goverment (esp. of Bethmann-Hollweg) were very adaptable to the changing situations. When Wilson started his 'peace diplomacy' in 1916 Bethmann-Hollweg was very much prepared - against the loud shouting hypernationals like Tirpitz, Ludendorff or Ludwig III, ( one of the IMHO most shameless anexionists) - to let Belgium go back into independent neutrality.
Bethmann-Hollweg was willing to quite possibly but he repeatedly got ignored by the military and Wilhelm II so how much weight his word would actually have is a question.
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nomommsen
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Post by nomommsen on Sept 8, 2024 9:54:17 GMT
a) Its possible that a Russian government other that Lenin's farce might accept that. In which case the German last gasp offensive in the west comes earlier and against stronger defences.
b) Food aside, as that is the big issue they clearly do have the capacity to continue fighting. At a somewhat reduced force strength but if they sit tight and avoid the wasteful offensives in 1917 they have a lot greater capacity than Germany.
c) In 1917 possibly but what happens when the harvests recover?
d) Who said anything about mechanization? I assume your talking about food production here?? They do have the capacity to release some men and horses from the front without scrapping the entire - or even most of their army. Some of France is occupied but the bulk is not. What is included a lot of the industrial region which France has responded to by building new industrial capacity elsewhere.
e) No you haven't. They would have to reduce oil consumption but not cut it totally. The US trade barriers would mean they can no longer get goods from there, or finance but that neither has Germany for the previous 2-3 years and it hasn't collapsed. Food is the big unknown but the other issues can be managed. Whether Germany can force the decisive military victory it desires is a big issue and I would say the evidence is that their likely to fail in trying.
ad a) ... stronger dedfences compared to what other situation? The Entente powers ITTL would already in the begin of 1918 in a much worse situation and worse capabilities than at the begin of 1918 IOTL (not to speak of summer when IOTL Ludendorff managed to snatch deferat from the jaws of victory).
ad b) As we have seen food actually was IOTL an issue and would have been such even more mildly said 'pressing' ITTL. ... but ... well then: How would the Entente 'fight' this issue? So far aside handwaving I'v e never heard/read of any sensible proposal of overcomming at least this single issue anywhere.
- Where to take the bottoms - and their fuel - from to move good?
- Where to take the credits from for buying outside the US of A like the latin americas with the less favorable example of the US of A not giving such credit anymore?
- ... then there's still the problem of 'convoying' without suffient fuel for the RN
- ... then there's the well increased amount of time needed to ship over loonger distances which results in a less favorable 'food-for-transportationtime' ratio
I always wondered why the Entente never intended or at least prepared plans to rely more on their own easily payable (as their dominions and colonies would ocf give their resources mineral of food which they were in need themself happily to the motherland without much of a fee ...) resources so often - somewhat nebulously - mentioned in such discussions.
... 'british' understatement ?
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Sept 8, 2024 10:01:09 GMT
They might make such proposals, although given the hubris among the German leadership until the end of the war and their lack of honesty in the past would anyone expect them to hold to then. Britain would definitely seek to free at least a chunk of Belgium from German occupation, for itself and France's security as well as to ease the plight of the Belgians but whether they would keep them for any length of time is unclear.
Also I do notice that this German dominated Mitterlafrica included not only an annexed Belgium Congo and territory from British and French colonies, some at considerable distance from the core German/Belgium lands but also seizing Portuguese colonies as well.
... what 'exceptional' dishonesty you refer to here? ... the 'scrap of paper' statement assigned to Bethmann-Hollweg? ... which given i.e. the attitude of the british foreign policy regarding Luxembourg ( VEERY similar treaty as for Belgium). A policy rather well known since the treaty was 'relativated' even in the year it was signed by the 'Derby-Clarendon doctrine'.
However ... in the eyes of the german diplomacy rather Great Britain is the unhonest negotiator as they betrayed the conventions/treaties concluded regarding the portuguise colonies at least one time (1898) ( ... strangely there's no anglophone mention of these negotiations in wiki ... recommend using some translotor for the german entry) and it's rather doubtfull if they had kept the treaty of re-negotiated and conluded in 1913/14. It seems rather the german side has every / a lot of reason to distrust the Entente powers regarding their keeping of treaties.
For the second highlightend part:
Possible the german negotiators might refer to above mentioned very shortly prewar concluded and finalized ( final agreement of Beethmann-Hollweg to british conditions on 27th July) agreement about. ... possibly with an 'offer' to the british side if they actually would like this agreement seen published (selling away portuguise colonies another time ).
If I follow your argument correctly your saying that British ambiguous on the question of Luxembourg negates German treaty break in both cases? Given the repeated breaching of international agreements by Germany and their attitude throughout the war doubts about German trustworthiness is perfectly logical. Not just the invasion of and quick desire to annex nations they had sworn to protect but other things like their breaches of international agreements on the use of poison gas and the use of USW in direct defiance of treaties they had signed.
I know there were talks between London and Berlin over a joint take over of the Portuguese colonies in the event of their defaulting on debts but must admit I'm not aware of the details. Unfortunately neither of your links are working. The 1st loops back to this thread and the 2nd gets a message from the University of Louisville that "Sorry, we can't find the page you're looking for!"
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Sept 8, 2024 10:04:16 GMT
... in the ruling elites ... ... who's capacity to rule were ever more detoriating from late 1916 ( notably the takeover of the 3rd OHL by the 'dynamic duo' ) with the Reichstag gaining more and more of a say as well as even the trade unions in their role keeping up war time production. Their participation now tightly written into law regarding military service exemption and the castration of the ' Gesetz über den vaterländischen Hilfsdienst' might serve as an indicator not to forget the Reichstag declarations against the 'leadersdhips' wishes.
That is rubbish. The parliament was increasingly bypassed by the military dictatorship that emerge from the aristocratic military elite and served only to continue and intensify the latter's ideas and interests. The Reichstag, like people like Bethmann-Hollweg were increasingly powerless and ignored.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Sept 8, 2024 10:09:35 GMT
a) Its possible that a Russian government other that Lenin's farce might accept that. In which case the German last gasp offensive in the west comes earlier and against stronger defences.
b) Food aside, as that is the big issue they clearly do have the capacity to continue fighting. At a somewhat reduced force strength but if they sit tight and avoid the wasteful offensives in 1917 they have a lot greater capacity than Germany.
c) In 1917 possibly but what happens when the harvests recover?
d) Who said anything about mechanization? I assume your talking about food production here?? They do have the capacity to release some men and horses from the front without scrapping the entire - or even most of their army. Some of France is occupied but the bulk is not. What is included a lot of the industrial region which France has responded to by building new industrial capacity elsewhere.
e) No you haven't. They would have to reduce oil consumption but not cut it totally. The US trade barriers would mean they can no longer get goods from there, or finance but that neither has Germany for the previous 2-3 years and it hasn't collapsed. Food is the big unknown but the other issues can be managed. Whether Germany can force the decisive military victory it desires is a big issue and I would say the evidence is that their likely to fail in trying.
ad a) ... stronger dedfences compared to what other situation? The Entente powers ITTL would already in the begin of 1918 in a much worse situation and worse capabilities than at the begin of 1918 IOTL (not to speak of summer when IOTL Ludendorff managed to snatch deferat from the jaws of victory).
ad b) As we have seen food actually was IOTL an issue and would have been such even more mildly said 'pressing' ITTL. ... but ... well then: How would the Entente 'fight' this issue? So far aside handwaving I'v e never heard/read of any sensible proposal of overcomming at least this single issue anywhere.
- Where to take the bottoms - and their fuel - from to move good?
- Where to take the credits from for buying outside the US of A like the latin americas with the less favorable example of the US of A not giving such credit anymore?
- ... then there's still the problem of 'convoying' without suffient fuel for the RN
- ... then there's the well increased amount of time needed to ship over loonger distances which results in a less favorable 'food-for-transportationtime' ratio
I always wondered why the Entente never intended or at least prepared plans to rely more on their own easily payable (as their dominions and colonies would ocf give their resources mineral of food which they were in need themself happily to the motherland without much of a fee ...) resources so often - somewhat nebulously - mentioned in such discussions.
... 'british' understatement ?
The western defence would be stronger because in the event of a Russian cease fire or other agreement in early-mid 1917 the German attack would come earlier, which would probably negate at least the last stages of the 3rd Yepres offensive.
I was referring to a somewhat reduced force because I was assuming that some, but probably not many of the current forces and resources would be released from the army to play other roles. They don't need to disband more than a small proportion to release a lot of manpower.
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nomommsen
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Post by nomommsen on Sept 8, 2024 11:18:43 GMT
links should work now ... at least they do for me. (... still learning the whereabouts of proboards ...)
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nomommsen
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Post by nomommsen on Sept 8, 2024 12:22:08 GMT
The western defence would be stronger because in the event of a Russian cease fire or other agreement in early-mid 1917 a) the German attack would come earlier, which would probably negate at least the last stages of the 3rd Yepres offensive.
b) I was referring to a somewhat reduced force because I was assuming that some, but probably not many of the current forces and resources would be released from the army to play other roles. They don't need to disband more than a small proportion to release a lot of manpower.
ad a) ... rather improbable as IOTL it already happened as early as possible due to reasons of weather and season. There wasn't much room for setting it considerably earlier due to said reasons.
ITTL an earlier 'agreement' on the russian front would rather hepl the germans in improving their man-power at least. IOTL the 'rest' of the freed troops from that front for the west were funneled in after the bginning of Michael making the follow-up operations (esp. Georgette and Blücher-York) possible at all (at least in their size).
ad b) ... can't follow you here who's releasing troops for "other roles" and why someone would decise to do so as one of the lessons so far learnd was :
you need AS MANY troops as possible and preferrably MUACH MOARRE than the enemy has to assure at least some chance of a for you successfull outcome.
However, aside manpower I would question the material reserves (shells, shell cases, explosives ... and almost every other item also to be handed the troops to enable them to fight and successfully repulse a german attack ... all the stuff delivered from the US of A).
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