575
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Post by 575 on Apr 30, 2024 15:04:33 GMT
French Navy
Battleship Richelieu had entered service during September having finished fitting out.
Work on the sister Jean Bart continued and by 1942 the ship would enter the Marine Nationale.
The second pair of battleships ordered Clemenceau and Gascogne would be build – Clemenceau by 1944 and Gascogne 1948.
The design of Gascogne had been altered quite by moving the B-turret to the aft of the ship onto the quarterdeck and thus the Superstructure forward and a change in the spotter aircraft hanger. Both ships had a change in secondary armament and AA- guns.
By the time Jean Bart was in commission the MN had 6 modern Battleships in service: Strasbourg, Dunquerque, Richelieu, Jean Bart, Clemenceau and Gascogne. The Gascogne having a destinctively different silhouette from her sisters due to the huge change in design.
The Alsace Class projected Battleships had been abandoned because of the losses to the German Kriegsmarine during the war to get the worked on ships finished and build the Aircraft Carriers.
During late 1941 the Battleships numbered 13 and 1 Battle Cruiser though 3 of the Battleships were old pre-Dreadnoughts and 7 slow Dreadnoughts making for 3 fast Battleships which would be of concern regarding watching the Italians and Japanese.
In the end the French gave up the Scharnhorst Battle Cruiser as rebuilding it for French guns proved too costly. Exchanging the 9x 11” main guns for 6x 13” or 15” French guns though the plans of the proposed refit of it with German 15” guns were known was in the end rejected and even using the ship for a training unit was rejected due to the difference from the French ships trained crews would man.
The Aircraft Carrier project of two ships Joffre and Painlevé had also had their construction time prolonged – Joffre had been laid down 26 November 1938 and the Marine Nationale had been indecisive for most of 1940 before deciding to lay down the Painlevé by 1941 when Joffre had left Slipway no.1 making room for construction to commence. This led to taking the old carrier Béarn out of commission as well as the floatplane carrier Commandant Teste though with the development of helicopters the ship was later during the 1950's rebuild as a Helicopter carrying assault ship.
With the shiplosses and bottling up of the Kriegsmarine in Jade Bay and the Baltic by mid-1940 there had been much discussion in France of building programmes initiated during the late 1930's. Much influenzed by the Victory over Germany the building was decided to finish the mentioned Battleships and Aircraft Carriers and then having a modern large Combat Fleet decide on the future.
Adding to the French builds were the former German Aircraft Carrier Graf Zeppelin and Battlecruiser Scharnhorst.
The first renamed Alsace with the usual French finesse for insulting the Germans and the second renamed Saxe in the same way. The Germans easily got the point but never commented upon it. Don't say the Germans don't understand irony/satire.
The Graf Zeppelin had been designed for an airgroup of 42 Fighters and Divebombers but were regulated to 40 to be on par with Joffre and Painlevé's outfit.
It also had its AA-guns exchanged with French guns so instead of the 16x 15cm guns, 12x 10,5cm, 22x 37mm and 28x 20mm it got 8x 13cm guns, 8x 37mm and 7 quad 13,2mm. The change in AA-guns lowered the number of gunners by some 350 which almost brought it at the French carriers outfit. It was actually heavier armoured than the British Illustrious class which had a 76mm flight deck – Graf Zeppelin sported a 45mm flight deck and a 60mm maindeck which counted for the total weigh of the ship of 34,000 tons.
What to send til FIC to deter the Japanese? Without a real Aircraft Carrier the Marine Nationale decided to go Japanese and send some Navy Fighter Dewoitine D520 and Light Bomber/Torpedo Bombers to FIC along a surface unit of the two Dunquerque fast Dreadnoughts.
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575
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Post by 575 on Apr 30, 2024 15:05:35 GMT
RN RN was digesting the experiences of the war. It was still building 2 of the 5 King George V class Battleships. Still in commission were the 5 Queen Elisabeth class, 4 Revenge class Royal Oak being torpedoed and sunk 14 October 1939, the 2 Nelson class. Three Battlecruiser; the 2 Renown class and Hood. The Revenge class ships ought to be retired mainly due to the situation in European waters with the Kriegsmarine removed and the sorry state of the Soviet Navy. That would make for 9 Battleships and 3 Battle Cruisers with 2 Battleships building. CVs - Courageous have been sunk, Argus, Hermes, Eagle, Glorious and Furious still around but needing to be replaced. Ark Royal (54 AC), 3x Illustrious (36/40 AC) in service but the fourth was being changed to have 45 AC. Two Implacable class building (54 AC) as are Unicorn as it would be a valuable addition to the Fleet operations.
Next proposed builds would be a new class Audacious - class (50-60+ AC) of which some 10/12 would be build depending upon needs and funds allocated though with the Japanese still a factor to be reckoned with in the Pacific/Far East and the Italians in the Med though the French Marine Nationale would do the primary job there that would also deploy units to the Far East due to the uncertain situation with a hostile Thailand and possible hostile Japan. Thus 12 ships would be advocated by the Admiralty making for a total of 16 Aircraft Carriers with some 1000 Aircraft.
With the European War at an end and a lid on Mussolini and at the time a tolerable situation regarding Soviet Union at least with less Naval assets needed in Europe the Far Eastern Squadron should be reinforced to deter Japanese aspirations. Thus Ark Royal and two Illustrious carriers were sent off to Singapore along the Nelson Battleships and the three Battle Cruisers as the Japanese were known to put emphasis on speed. However all major ships were fitted with Radar prior to sailing. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Apr 30, 2024 15:50:53 GMT
French Navy Battleship Richelieu had entered service during September having finished fitting out. Work on the sister Jean Bart continued and by 1942 the ship would enter the Marine Nationale. The second pair of battleships ordered Clemenceau and Gascogne would be build – Clemenceau by 1944 and Gascogne 1948. The design of Gascogne had been altered quite by moving the B-turret to the aft of the ship onto the quarterdeck and thus the Superstructure forward and a change in the spotter aircraft hanger. Both ships had a change in secondary armament and AA- guns. By the time Jean Bart was in commission the MN had 6 modern Battleships in service: Strasbourg, Dunquerque, Richelieu, Jean Bart, Clemenceau and Gascogne. The Gascogne having a destinctively different silhouette from her sisters due to the huge change in design. The Alsace Class projected Battleships had been abandoned because of the losses to the German Kriegsmarine during the war to get the worked on ships finished and build the Aircraft Carriers. During late 1941 the Battleships numbered 13 and 1 Battle Cruiser though 3 of the Battleships were old pre-Dreadnoughts and 7 slow Dreadnoughts making for 3 fast Battleships which would be of concern regarding watching the Italians and Japanese. In the end the French gave up the Scharnhorst Battle Cruiser as rebuilding it for French guns proved too costly. Exchanging the 9x 11” main guns for 6x 13” or 15” French guns though the plans of the proposed refit of it with German 15” guns were known was in the end rejected and even using the ship for a training unit was rejected due to the difference from the French ships trained crews would man. The Aircraft Carrier project of two ships Joffre and Painlevé had also had their construction time prolonged – Joffre had been laid down 26 November 1938 and the Marine Nationale had been indecisive for most of 1940 before deciding to lay down the Painlevé by 1941 when Joffre had left Slipway no.1 making room for construction to commence. This led to taking the old carrier Béarn out of commission as well as the floatplane carrier Commandant Teste though with the development of helicopters the ship was later during the 1950's rebuild as a Helicopter carrying assault ship. With the shiplosses and bottling up of the Kriegsmarine in Jade Bay and the Baltic by mid-1940 there had been much discussion in France of building programmes initiated during the late 1930's. Much influenzed by the Victory over Germany the building was decided to finish the mentioned Battleships and Aircraft Carriers and then having a modern large Combat Fleet decide on the future. Adding to the French builds were the former German Aircraft Carrier Graf Zeppelin and Battlecruiser Scharnhorst. The first renamed Alsace with the usual French finesse for insulting the Germans and the second renamed Saxe in the same way. The Germans easily got the point but never commented upon it. Don't say the Germans don't understand irony/satire. The Graf Zeppelin had been designed for an airgroup of 42 Fighters and Divebombers but were regulated to 40 to be on par with Joffre and Painlevé's outfit. It also had its AA-guns exchanged with French guns so instead of the 16x 15cm guns, 12x 10,5cm, 22x 37mm and 28x 20mm it got 8x 13cm guns, 8x 37mm and 7 quad 13,2mm. The change in AA-guns lowered the number of gunners by some 350 which almost brought it at the French carriers outfit. It was actually heavier armoured than the British Illustrious class which had a 76mm flight deck – Graf Zeppelin sported a 45mm flight deck and a 60mm maindeck which counted for the total weigh of the ship of 34,000 tons. What to send til FIC to deter the Japanese? Without a real Aircraft Carrier the Marine Nationale decided to go Japanese and send some Navy Fighter Dewoitine D520 and Light Bomber/Torpedo Bombers to FIC along a surface unit of the two Dunquerque fast Dreadnoughts.
I suspect that by the time Clemenceau ws completed, definitely by the time Gascogne is their likely to be pretty much obsolete, as quite likely will be most big gun ships. [Although it would depend on events elsewhere as that would change some parameters such as what potential enemies with similar ships might be about.
Probably the best approach sending land based a/c to FIC as such land bases have big advantages against CV based ones, especially with radar becoming available. Provided of course that they don't get complacent and caught with their pants down.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Apr 30, 2024 16:11:22 GMT
RN RN was digesting the experiences of the war. It was still building 2 of the 5 King George V class Battleships. Still in commission were the 4 Queen Elisabeth class, 4 Revenge class Royal Oak being torpedoed and sunk 14 October 1939, the 2 Nelson class. Three Battlecruiser; the 2 Renown class and Hood. The Queen Elizabeth class ships ought to be retired mainly due to the situation in European waters with the Kriegsmarine removed and the sorry state of the Soviet Navy. That would make for 9 Battleships and 3 Battle Cruisers with 2 Battleships building. CVs - Courageous have been sunk, Argus, Hermes, Eagle, Glorious and Furious still around but needing to be replaced. Ark Royal (54 AC), 3x Illustrious (36/40 AC) in service but the fourth was being changed to have 45 AC. Two Implacable class building (54 AC) as are Unicorn as it would be a valuable addition to the Fleet operations.
Next proposed builds would be a new class Audacious - class (50-60+ AC) of which some 10/12 would be build depending upon needs and funds allocated though with the Japanese still a factor to be reckoned with in the Pacific/Far East and the Italians in the Med though the French Marine Nationale would do the primary job there that would also deploy units to the Far East due to the uncertain situation with a hostile Thailand and possible hostile Japan. Thus 12 ships would be advocated by the Admiralty making for a total of 16 Aircraft Carriers with some 1000 Aircraft.
With the European War at an end and a lid on Mussolini and at the time a tolerable situation regarding Soviet Union at least with less Naval assets needed in Europe the Far Eastern Squadron should be reinforced to deter Japanese aspirations. Thus Ark Royal and two Illustrious carriers were sent off to Singapore along the Nelson Battleships and the three Battle Cruisers as the Japanese were known to put emphasis on speed. However all major ships were fitted with Radar prior to sailing.
In terms of retiring ships as new ones entered service the R's were due to go before the Queens. This was because while the latter were slightly older their larger size and speed meant they were more capable of modification and most had had at least one round in the 1930's so I think the R's would be retired 1st. Where did we lose a Queen as they started with 5 as well?
One other point in that because they were the newest construction prior to the KGV class the two Nelson's and Hood hadn't yet been modified to any great degree and were in pretty poor state. I wonder if it would be better to send the Nelson's - probably after a quick refit to give the best radar/AA defence and if the intention is to keep it do the long planned and much delayed reconstruction of Hood. Or failing that at least rebuild Repulse to the same standard as Renown. It does mean that it takes longer to get a significant force there but I suspect there's not seen to be any major danger yet and the force would be significantly stringer when it gets there.
Sounds like the RN still think of Italy as a more significant threat as their keeping the KGV class in Europe? That is a significantly better CV force than OTL since the war has been far less destructive and shorter. However a lot will depend on whether there's the will and resources to complete all of them and also a lot will depend on how much experience has been learnt which would affect both equipment and doctrine.
One thing not mentioned would be that the bulk of the pre-war subs were designed for use against Japan and in this scenario probably many have stayed in the east or at least not lost so they could be sent back quickly and they could be very effective against the logistics of any Japanese strike southwards.
A lot would depend on the military, economic and political situation in China and neighbouring areas. TTL without the loss of France FIC is still available as is Burma for supply routes to China. Also without a desperate crisis in Europe both Britain and France might have been more helpful than OTL and are quite likely to be willing to supply a lot of war time equipment to China while the US had probably sent a lot more than OTL and how much economic pressure has the US put in Japan? Something that is likely to be increased fairly rapidly with the European conflict over.
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575
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Post by 575 on Apr 30, 2024 19:52:14 GMT
RN RN was digesting the experiences of the war. It was still building 2 of the 5 King George V class Battleships. Still in commission were the 4 Queen Elisabeth class, 4 Revenge class Royal Oak being torpedoed and sunk 14 October 1939, the 2 Nelson class. Three Battlecruiser; the 2 Renown class and Hood. The Queen Elizabeth class ships ought to be retired mainly due to the situation in European waters with the Kriegsmarine removed and the sorry state of the Soviet Navy. That would make for 9 Battleships and 3 Battle Cruisers with 2 Battleships building. CVs - Courageous have been sunk, Argus, Hermes, Eagle, Glorious and Furious still around but needing to be replaced. Ark Royal (54 AC), 3x Illustrious (36/40 AC) in service but the fourth was being changed to have 45 AC. Two Implacable class building (54 AC) as are Unicorn as it would be a valuable addition to the Fleet operations.
Next proposed builds would be a new class Audacious - class (50-60+ AC) of which some 10/12 would be build depending upon needs and funds allocated though with the Japanese still a factor to be reckoned with in the Pacific/Far East and the Italians in the Med though the French Marine Nationale would do the primary job there that would also deploy units to the Far East due to the uncertain situation with a hostile Thailand and possible hostile Japan. Thus 12 ships would be advocated by the Admiralty making for a total of 16 Aircraft Carriers with some 1000 Aircraft.
With the European War at an end and a lid on Mussolini and at the time a tolerable situation regarding Soviet Union at least with less Naval assets needed in Europe the Far Eastern Squadron should be reinforced to deter Japanese aspirations. Thus Ark Royal and two Illustrious carriers were sent off to Singapore along the Nelson Battleships and the three Battle Cruisers as the Japanese were known to put emphasis on speed. However all major ships were fitted with Radar prior to sailing.
In terms of retiring ships as new ones entered service the R's were due to go before the Queens. This was because while the latter were slightly older their larger size and speed meant they were more capable of modification and most had had at least one round in the 1930's so I think the R's would be retired 1st. Where did we lose a Queen as they started with 5 as well?
One other point in that because they were the newest construction prior to the KGV class the two Nelson's and Hood hadn't yet been modified to any great degree and were in pretty poor state. I wonder if it would be better to send the Nelson's - probably after a quick refit to give the best radar/AA defence and if the intention is to keep it do the long planned and much delayed reconstruction of Hood. Or failing that at least rebuild Repulse to the same standard as Renown. It does mean that it takes longer to get a significant force there but I suspect there's not seen to be any major danger yet and the force would be significantly stringer when it gets there.
Sounds like the RN still think of Italy as a more significant threat as their keeping the KGV class in Europe? That is a significantly better CV force than OTL since the war has been far less destructive and shorter. However a lot will depend on whether there's the will and resources to complete all of them and also a lot will depend on how much experience has been learnt which would affect both equipment and doctrine.
One thing not mentioned would be that the bulk of the pre-war subs were designed for use against Japan and in this scenario probably many have stayed in the east or at least not lost so they could be sent back quickly and they could be very effective against the logistics of any Japanese strike southwards.
A lot would depend on the military, economic and political situation in China and neighbouring areas. TTL without the loss of France FIC is still available as is Burma for supply routes to China. Also without a desperate crisis in Europe both Britain and France might have been more helpful than OTL and are quite likely to be willing to supply a lot of war time equipment to China while the US had probably sent a lot more than OTL and how much economic pressure has the US put in Japan? Something that is likely to be increased fairly rapidly with the European conflict over.
Did miss a Queen Elizabeth class ship - thanks for heads up on that being kept on and retirng the R-class. Coudln't find the specifics.
Italy is an annoyance and some presence have to be in the Med - Egypt, Malta, Gib. Not so much to battle the Italians - the French would surely like to do so but more to be able to project power into the Red Sea and Indian Ocean.
The Big Subs will go east.
As mentioned quite some pages ago the Burma road and the ports of FIC, Haiphong etc. and roads/railways from those into China are still open. As I expect the Japanese to still conquer a lot of Chinese coast these are vital to supply China.
I have some vague - at the moment - thoughts on the Japanese. Have to look up something. Not written it yet. Of course with the War in Europe ended these post's on RN and Marine Nationale is also to show that the Western Allies does take the situation in the Far East/China seriously. Both may find the Japanese as despicable and impotent vis-a-vis a European armed force as Churchill and I think the British Military thought. Also will menting something on Roosevelt and de-colonization so there will be some negotiating between the USA and Britain/France on that. That may complicate matters.
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575
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Post by 575 on Apr 30, 2024 19:54:51 GMT
French Navy Battleship Richelieu had entered service during September having finished fitting out. Work on the sister Jean Bart continued and by 1942 the ship would enter the Marine Nationale. The second pair of battleships ordered Clemenceau and Gascogne would be build – Clemenceau by 1944 and Gascogne 1948. The design of Gascogne had been altered quite by moving the B-turret to the aft of the ship onto the quarterdeck and thus the Superstructure forward and a change in the spotter aircraft hanger. Both ships had a change in secondary armament and AA- guns. By the time Jean Bart was in commission the MN had 6 modern Battleships in service: Strasbourg, Dunquerque, Richelieu, Jean Bart, Clemenceau and Gascogne. The Gascogne having a destinctively different silhouette from her sisters due to the huge change in design. The Alsace Class projected Battleships had been abandoned because of the losses to the German Kriegsmarine during the war to get the worked on ships finished and build the Aircraft Carriers. During late 1941 the Battleships numbered 13 and 1 Battle Cruiser though 3 of the Battleships were old pre-Dreadnoughts and 7 slow Dreadnoughts making for 3 fast Battleships which would be of concern regarding watching the Italians and Japanese. In the end the French gave up the Scharnhorst Battle Cruiser as rebuilding it for French guns proved too costly. Exchanging the 9x 11” main guns for 6x 13” or 15” French guns though the plans of the proposed refit of it with German 15” guns were known was in the end rejected and even using the ship for a training unit was rejected due to the difference from the French ships trained crews would man. The Aircraft Carrier project of two ships Joffre and Painlevé had also had their construction time prolonged – Joffre had been laid down 26 November 1938 and the Marine Nationale had been indecisive for most of 1940 before deciding to lay down the Painlevé by 1941 when Joffre had left Slipway no.1 making room for construction to commence. This led to taking the old carrier Béarn out of commission as well as the floatplane carrier Commandant Teste though with the development of helicopters the ship was later during the 1950's rebuild as a Helicopter carrying assault ship. With the shiplosses and bottling up of the Kriegsmarine in Jade Bay and the Baltic by mid-1940 there had been much discussion in France of building programmes initiated during the late 1930's. Much influenzed by the Victory over Germany the building was decided to finish the mentioned Battleships and Aircraft Carriers and then having a modern large Combat Fleet decide on the future. Adding to the French builds were the former German Aircraft Carrier Graf Zeppelin and Battlecruiser Scharnhorst. The first renamed Alsace with the usual French finesse for insulting the Germans and the second renamed Saxe in the same way. The Germans easily got the point but never commented upon it. Don't say the Germans don't understand irony/satire. The Graf Zeppelin had been designed for an airgroup of 42 Fighters and Divebombers but were regulated to 40 to be on par with Joffre and Painlevé's outfit. It also had its AA-guns exchanged with French guns so instead of the 16x 15cm guns, 12x 10,5cm, 22x 37mm and 28x 20mm it got 8x 13cm guns, 8x 37mm and 7 quad 13,2mm. The change in AA-guns lowered the number of gunners by some 350 which almost brought it at the French carriers outfit. It was actually heavier armoured than the British Illustrious class which had a 76mm flight deck – Graf Zeppelin sported a 45mm flight deck and a 60mm maindeck which counted for the total weigh of the ship of 34,000 tons. What to send til FIC to deter the Japanese? Without a real Aircraft Carrier the Marine Nationale decided to go Japanese and send some Navy Fighter Dewoitine D520 and Light Bomber/Torpedo Bombers to FIC along a surface unit of the two Dunquerque fast Dreadnoughts.
I suspect that by the time Clemenceau ws completed, definitely by the time Gascogne is their likely to be pretty much obsolete, as quite likely will be most big gun ships. [Although it would depend on events elsewhere as that would change some parameters such as what potential enemies with similar ships might be about.
Probably the best approach sending land based a/c to FIC as such land bases have big advantages against CV based ones, especially with radar becoming available. Provided of course that they don't get complacent and caught with their pants down.
By completion those ships will basically be obsolete. Will just take some time for the news to sink in. Though somebody may have such thoughts hence why I let them keep GZ - if only as a Unicorn like unit. |
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575
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Post by 575 on May 3, 2024 7:08:05 GMT
During the British – French negotiations Heile Selassie had been actively lobbying in Britain for getting the Italians kicked out of his Empire and would at any occasion address the LoN on the issue.
There seemed to be some applause every time he did so at least from the minor democratic Nations and the South Americans but also the Persians.
Along the Belgian trail of the Luftwaffe Commanders and the German trails taking place regarding the KZ-camps Heile Selassie argued that the Italian dictator and his henchmen ought to be brought to trail for their documented violations of international law during the conquest and continued occupation of his country.
Churchill found it a minor nuisance but something might be done along the way.
As Heile Selassie did continue this campaign against the Fascist Italian regime other members of the LoN began discussing if such trail could and should be carried out mainly with minor states supporting such measure of justice be carried out.
Haile Selassie did find a willing ear in Washington. The USA particularly President Roosevelt had been argueing that the European Colonial powers should terminate colonialism and let the peoples of their colonies determine their own future.
Of course there was no small interest on the part of the USA of opening the Colonies as markets for US produce.
The French was strongly against such as they had needed the manpower of the Colonies to defeat Germany but also because France wanted to see itself on the level of Britain thus Empire was needed and the French accused the USA of imperialism with its controlling or trying to trade in the Western Hemisphere as well as keeping the Philippines still as a colony.
Roosevelt countered that a plan was decided upon regarding Philippine independence by 1944 and that Germany had been able to trade in Latin-America.
The French still weren't satisfied.
So too wasn't the British or at least Churchill about Indian independence which Roosevelt was a warm proponet of – of course for USA to enter the huge Indian market and force the British out. However Churchill well knew that due to the end of the War and elections having been due by 1940 but due to the war these had been postponed at the end of war to 1942.
So too was the situation in France where elections also had been postponed due to the War and was also scheduled for 1942.
The works of a new Defensive Pact in Europe which was much desired by the British, Scandinavians, Balts, Czechs, Romanians, Yugoslavians and Greeks with invitations extended to Poland, Bulgaria and Portugal.
The Chancellor of Germany would be briefed by notes as a way of re-introducing Germany into the European ”concert”.
As a first Britain argued that Germany should be allowed to enter LoN to place it in a political context that anyway would be party to settle political issues of Germany and its neigbours.
German Chancellor Schumacher had recalled former Reichwehr Commander General v. Hammerstein-Equord from pension to rebuild the Armed forces of the new German Republic. Though v. Hammerstein-Equord was visibly ill Schumacher found his standing with the German Army and his personal attitude to the former Nazi-regime important to have him rebuild the Armed forces and imprint his view of Politics upon the Officers.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on May 3, 2024 16:57:04 GMT
During the British – French negotiations Heile Selassie had been actively lobbying in Britain for getting the Italians kicked out of his Empire and would at any occasion address the LoN on the issue. There seemed to be some applause every time he did so at least from the minor democratic Nations and the South Americans but also the Persians. Along the Belgian trail of the Luftwaffe Commanders and the German trails taking place regarding the KZ-camps Heile Selassie argued that the Italian dictator and his henchmen ought to be brought to trail for their documented violations of international law during the conquest and continued occupation of his country. Churchill found it a minor nuisance but something might be done along the way. As Heile Selassie did continue this campaign against the Fascist Italian regime other members of the LoN began discussing if such trail could and should be carried out mainly with minor states supporting such measure of justice be carried out. Haile Selassie did find a willing ear in Washington. The USA particularly President Roosevelt had been argueing that the European Colonial powers should terminate colonialism and let the peoples of their colonies determine their own future. Of course there was no small interest on the part of the USA of opening the Colonies as markets for US produce. The French was strongly against such as they had needed the manpower of the Colonies to defeat Germany but also because France wanted to see itself on the level of Britain thus Empire was needed and the French accused the USA of imperialism with its controlling or trying to trade in the Western Hemisphere as well as keeping the Philippines still as a colony. Roosevelt countered that a plan was decided upon regarding Philippine independence by 1944 and that Germany had been able to trade in Latin-America. The French still weren't satisfied. So too wasn't the British or at least Churchill about Indian independence which Roosevelt was a warm proponet of – of course for USA to enter the huge Indian market and force the British out. However Churchill well knew that due to the end of the War and elections having been due by 1940 but due to the war these had been postponed at the end of war to 1942. So too was the situation in France where elections also had been postponed due to the War and was also scheduled for 1942. The works of a new Defensive Pact in Europe which was much desired by the British, Scandinavians, Balts, Czechs, Romanians, Yugoslavians and Greeks with invitations extended to Poland, Bulgaria and Portugal. The Chancellor of Germany would be briefed by notes as a way of re-introducing Germany into the European ”concert”. As a first Britain argued that Germany should be allowed to enter LoN to place it in a political context that anyway would be party to settle political issues of Germany and its neigbours. German Chancellor Schumacher had recalled former Reichwehr Commander General v. Hammerstein-Equord from pension to rebuild the Armed forces of the new German Republic. Though v. Hammerstein-Equord was visibly ill Schumacher found his standing with the German Army and his personal attitude to the former Nazi-regime important to have him rebuild the Armed forces and imprint his view of Politics upon the Officers.
Good review of the situation and Mussolini's regime will continue to be a pain for the democracies, especially those in Europe. At the same time there won't be an appetite for another war, even what would probably be a relatively easy one given the allied build up unless Mussolini does everybody a favour by doing something really stupid. Which is possibly but seems unlikely even for him.
Roosevelt will use the anti-colonial card, albeit that IIRC the US agreement with the Philippines were distinctly one sided with US tariffs on most Filipino exports while having full access to their markets.
On India since shortly after WWI it has had tariffs against foreign imports, including from Britain so independence might not change the market situation there much. At least unless Churchill and the imperialists make Britain too unpopular in India which I fear is a danger. Independence is coming and probably not much if any later than OTL unless stupidity in London makes the sub-continent a total disaster for Britain. Probably too late for partition to be avoided although with hopefully more time some of the worst massacres might be avoided but it depends on how quickly the government sees the writing on the wall. What happens with Ceylon and Burma might be better than OTL hopefully. Of course with Japan in the background there might be more interest in keeping close defensive relations with Britain.
A lot will depend on the election and I'm not sure what will happen there. Britain has won the war and done distinctly better than OTL which should be good for the Tories while Labour hasn't had the same amount of time in a war-time coalition to be able to claim a lot of government experience. On the other hand the Tories have been in power for over a decade during which their performance in the depression caused a lot of suffering and while Labour were even more dominated by opponents of rearmament than the Tories Chamberlain's behaviour up to March 39 is vulnerable to criticism. As such either party could win but a Labour one would probably be better for Britain simply because of their probable social policies and their better policies on the empire.
Anyway have to see what you come up with.
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575
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Post by 575 on May 3, 2024 18:25:50 GMT
During the British – French negotiations Heile Selassie had been actively lobbying in Britain for getting the Italians kicked out of his Empire and would at any occasion address the LoN on the issue. There seemed to be some applause every time he did so at least from the minor democratic Nations and the South Americans but also the Persians. Along the Belgian trail of the Luftwaffe Commanders and the German trails taking place regarding the KZ-camps Heile Selassie argued that the Italian dictator and his henchmen ought to be brought to trail for their documented violations of international law during the conquest and continued occupation of his country. Churchill found it a minor nuisance but something might be done along the way. As Heile Selassie did continue this campaign against the Fascist Italian regime other members of the LoN began discussing if such trail could and should be carried out mainly with minor states supporting such measure of justice be carried out. Haile Selassie did find a willing ear in Washington. The USA particularly President Roosevelt had been argueing that the European Colonial powers should terminate colonialism and let the peoples of their colonies determine their own future. Of course there was no small interest on the part of the USA of opening the Colonies as markets for US produce. The French was strongly against such as they had needed the manpower of the Colonies to defeat Germany but also because France wanted to see itself on the level of Britain thus Empire was needed and the French accused the USA of imperialism with its controlling or trying to trade in the Western Hemisphere as well as keeping the Philippines still as a colony. Roosevelt countered that a plan was decided upon regarding Philippine independence by 1944 and that Germany had been able to trade in Latin-America. The French still weren't satisfied. So too wasn't the British or at least Churchill about Indian independence which Roosevelt was a warm proponet of – of course for USA to enter the huge Indian market and force the British out. However Churchill well knew that due to the end of the War and elections having been due by 1940 but due to the war these had been postponed at the end of war to 1942. So too was the situation in France where elections also had been postponed due to the War and was also scheduled for 1942. The works of a new Defensive Pact in Europe which was much desired by the British, Scandinavians, Balts, Czechs, Romanians, Yugoslavians and Greeks with invitations extended to Poland, Bulgaria and Portugal. The Chancellor of Germany would be briefed by notes as a way of re-introducing Germany into the European ”concert”. As a first Britain argued that Germany should be allowed to enter LoN to place it in a political context that anyway would be party to settle political issues of Germany and its neigbours. German Chancellor Schumacher had recalled former Reichwehr Commander General v. Hammerstein-Equord from pension to rebuild the Armed forces of the new German Republic. Though v. Hammerstein-Equord was visibly ill Schumacher found his standing with the German Army and his personal attitude to the former Nazi-regime important to have him rebuild the Armed forces and imprint his view of Politics upon the Officers.
Good review of the situation and Mussolini's regime will continue to be a pain for the democracies, especially those in Europe. At the same time there won't be an appetite for another war, even what would probably be a relatively easy one given the allied build up unless Mussolini does everybody a favour by doing something really stupid. Which is possibly but seems unlikely even for him.
Roosevelt will use the anti-colonial card, albeit that IIRC the US agreement with the Philippines were distinctly one sided with US tariffs on most Filipino exports while having full access to their markets.
On India since shortly after WWI it has had tariffs against foreign imports, including from Britain so independence might not change the market situation there much. At least unless Churchill and the imperialists make Britain too unpopular in India which I fear is a danger. Independence is coming and probably not much if any later than OTL unless stupidity in London makes the sub-continent a total disaster for Britain. Probably too late for partition to be avoided although with hopefully more time some of the worst massacres might be avoided but it depends on how quickly the government sees the writing on the wall. What happens with Ceylon and Burma might be better than OTL hopefully. Of course with Japan in the background there might be more interest in keeping close defensive relations with Britain.
A lot will depend on the election and I'm not sure what will happen there. Britain has won the war and done distinctly better than OTL which should be good for the Tories while Labour hasn't had the same amount of time in a war-time coalition to be able to claim a lot of government experience. On the other hand the Tories have been in power for over a decade during which their performance in the depression caused a lot of suffering and while Labour were even more dominated by opponents of rearmament than the Tories Chamberlain's behaviour up to March 39 is vulnerable to criticism. As such either party could win but a Labour one would probably be better for Britain simply because of their probable social policies and their better policies on the empire.
Anyway have to see what you come up with.
On the situation - thanks for the comment. Was not 100% sure on it though thought it would have to be it.
More on anti-colonialism very soon - I've started writing on Japan it will be party to that part. Remember reading during A Window of Oppertunity that Roosevelt wanted in on the Indian market may well re-visit the papers I retrieved on subject.
I'm very much in deep water on the British elections so thanks for the input. The French one I'll have to give some thought though without the his political stading de Gaulle isn't going to become Premier or President. Having been an Armoured Division commander during the War won't catapult him into a ministerial office though He would certainly like so from what I've been reading. Of course he had the Ego. I don't expect a possible War in the Pacific to derail elections of Britain and France.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on May 3, 2024 22:16:00 GMT
Good review of the situation and Mussolini's regime will continue to be a pain for the democracies, especially those in Europe. At the same time there won't be an appetite for another war, even what would probably be a relatively easy one given the allied build up unless Mussolini does everybody a favour by doing something really stupid. Which is possibly but seems unlikely even for him.
Roosevelt will use the anti-colonial card, albeit that IIRC the US agreement with the Philippines were distinctly one sided with US tariffs on most Filipino exports while having full access to their markets.
On India since shortly after WWI it has had tariffs against foreign imports, including from Britain so independence might not change the market situation there much. At least unless Churchill and the imperialists make Britain too unpopular in India which I fear is a danger. Independence is coming and probably not much if any later than OTL unless stupidity in London makes the sub-continent a total disaster for Britain. Probably too late for partition to be avoided although with hopefully more time some of the worst massacres might be avoided but it depends on how quickly the government sees the writing on the wall. What happens with Ceylon and Burma might be better than OTL hopefully. Of course with Japan in the background there might be more interest in keeping close defensive relations with Britain.
A lot will depend on the election and I'm not sure what will happen there. Britain has won the war and done distinctly better than OTL which should be good for the Tories while Labour hasn't had the same amount of time in a war-time coalition to be able to claim a lot of government experience. On the other hand the Tories have been in power for over a decade during which their performance in the depression caused a lot of suffering and while Labour were even more dominated by opponents of rearmament than the Tories Chamberlain's behaviour up to March 39 is vulnerable to criticism. As such either party could win but a Labour one would probably be better for Britain simply because of their probable social policies and their better policies on the empire.
Anyway have to see what you come up with.
On the situation - thanks for the comment. Was not 100% sure on it though thought it would have to be it.
More on anti-colonialism very soon - I've started writing on Japan it will be party to that part. Remember reading during A Window of Oppertunity that Roosevelt wanted in on the Indian market may well re-visit the papers I retrieved on subject.
I'm very much in deep water on the British elections so thanks for the input. The French one I'll have to give some thought though without the his political stading de Gaulle isn't going to become Premier or President. Having been an Armoured Division commander during the War won't catapult him into a ministerial office though He would certainly like so from what I've been reading. Of course he had the Ego. I don't expect a possible War in the Pacific to derail elections of Britain and France.
India is a mess for everybody. How bad or not it goes depends on what the assorted groups do. What happens there will set lines for the rest of the empire as its gradually moved towards independence although some areas are likely to take much longer than others. [And that's leaving out regions such as British Honduras, the Falklands, Hong Kong and possibly a few others which will want a continued link for longer because their reliant on British protection against an external threat].
Roosevelt may well want in on the Indian market but would probably not have a major role if it becomes independent fairly soon. A Congress government which is probably the most likely would probably be highly protectionist as OTL and highly state oriented.
Which makes me think. With Europe avoiding the OTL devastation and so far anyway also Japan the US isn't going to be as overwhelmingly dominant as it was in 1945, when about 45-50% of GDP was in the US and much of Europe especially will be significant rivals. As such the US is likely to stay strongly protectionist itself so there won't be the big incentive for the move towards free trade there was OTL. Similarly in Britain would pro free-trade elements look towards expanding the imperial free trade zone and possibly also seek to include India into it or look towards something similar to the OTL EFTA although whether any of the other big states would be likely to join such an idea I don't know. Can't see France being willing and Germany could be too controversial.
Also a lot would depend on what happens in Palestine as that could drastically affect Britain's standing with the Muslim and especially the Arab world. I suspect that without the genocide in Europe at anything like such a level there could be no real Israel here. A lot of Jews, especially in eastern and central Europe are likely to want to go somewhere but what options would be open? Unless someone - probably Britain - offers a 'national homeland' somewhere else the only real options would be Palestine or the US and the door to both could be closed or at least pretty close to.
Hadn't consider the situation in France but its going to be interesting. De Gaulle is going to be a minor figure at most and could end up fighting rebels somewhere if especially say FIC kicks off earlier. The existing parties are likely to be boosted given the success in the war and the hard right are going to be discredited.
Would agree that a war in the Far East, even with Japan would be unlikely to affect the date of elections. True military and other figures pulled into the war zone would have limitations on their voting capacity but the vast bulk of the population and the economy are fully able to take part. As OTL when the election in 45 was held with a lot of troops fighting in the Far East.
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575
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Post by 575 on May 4, 2024 8:54:15 GMT
On the situation - thanks for the comment. Was not 100% sure on it though thought it would have to be it.
More on anti-colonialism very soon - I've started writing on Japan it will be party to that part. Remember reading during A Window of Oppertunity that Roosevelt wanted in on the Indian market may well re-visit the papers I retrieved on subject.
I'm very much in deep water on the British elections so thanks for the input. The French one I'll have to give some thought though without the his political stading de Gaulle isn't going to become Premier or President. Having been an Armoured Division commander during the War won't catapult him into a ministerial office though He would certainly like so from what I've been reading. Of course he had the Ego. I don't expect a possible War in the Pacific to derail elections of Britain and France.
India is a mess for everybody. How bad or not it goes depends on what the assorted groups do. What happens there will set lines for the rest of the empire as its gradually moved towards independence although some areas are likely to take much longer than others. [And that's leaving out regions such as British Honduras, the Falklands, Hong Kong and possibly a few others which will want a continued link for longer because their reliant on British protection against an external threat].
Roosevelt may well want in on the Indian market but would probably not have a major role if it becomes independent fairly soon. A Congress government which is probably the most likely would probably be highly protectionist as OTL and highly state oriented.
Which makes me think. With Europe avoiding the OTL devastation and so far anyway also Japan the US isn't going to be as overwhelmingly dominant as it was in 1945, when about 45-50% of GDP was in the US and much of Europe especially will be significant rivals. As such the US is likely to stay strongly protectionist itself so there won't be the big incentive for the move towards free trade there was OTL. Similarly in Britain would pro free-trade elements look towards expanding the imperial free trade zone and possibly also seek to include India into it or look towards something similar to the OTL EFTA although whether any of the other big states would be likely to join such an idea I don't know. Can't see France being willing and Germany could be too controversial.
Also a lot would depend on what happens in Palestine as that could drastically affect Britain's standing with the Muslim and especially the Arab world. I suspect that without the genocide in Europe at anything like such a level there could be no real Israel here. A lot of Jews, especially in eastern and central Europe are likely to want to go somewhere but what options would be open? Unless someone - probably Britain - offers a 'national homeland' somewhere else the only real options would be Palestine or the US and the door to both could be closed or at least pretty close to.
Hadn't consider the situation in France but its going to be interesting. De Gaulle is going to be a minor figure at most and could end up fighting rebels somewhere if especially say FIC kicks off earlier. The existing parties are likely to be boosted given the success in the war and the hard right are going to be discredited.
Would agree that a war in the Far East, even with Japan would be unlikely to affect the date of elections. True military and other figures pulled into the war zone would have limitations on their voting capacity but the vast bulk of the population and the economy are fully able to take part. As OTL when the election in 45 was held with a lot of troops fighting in the Far East.
Now I was only able to download an overview of a book but the essentials was that Roosevelt said he wanted the British to give the Indians more selfdetermination but Churchill's resistance and India's commitment to the Allied cause made him keep talking but not doing. I thus have R keep talking but realizing that with the position of the British and French there is no way of having them de-colonize. The Scandinavians will be looking to Britain trade-vise as its their market and France due to military strength though this may not seem as evident as the perception post Great War - at least not to those in the know of modern warfare.
Palestine - I think the British would continue to keep the Palestinians and Jews off its others backs (and their) and keep postpone fulfilling promises to either. The European Jews may like to resettle in other European Nations as they viewed themselves as party to those. As they - generally - except in Germany and occupied areas have been living and having freedom and not being impoverished. Problem is of course those of Eastern Europe - Poland, Hungary, Slovakia - with Poland of course the worst but some form of German reparations will have to be instituted. Perhaps countered with the threat of Border revision in the East of Germany! With less displaced persons and thus less wanting to go to Palestine the local problem of the British isn't going to grow too much.
France - well Petain is still Ambassador to Spain! OTL he only was recalled 18 May 1940. Still remembered as the hero of the Great War but a critic or two might remind the public of his 1934 critique of the military value of the British Army and anyway as You point to the Far Right have been discredited. de Gaulle may still want a seat in Parliament and he may have the military credentials to get such but nowhere near OTL stature. He might even see a posting to FIC a way of earning more popularity.
OTOH I'm thinking that Japan will have a harder time overrunning FIC at least ITTL the French will have some more troops, Aircraft and a Navy of some value and support by the RN. It won't be a Japanese offensive on a shoestring; the WAllied Navy Force of 7 Battleships and Battlecruisers as well as 3 Aircraft Carriers will force the IJN to divert as serious force to keep an eye on them - they still counted Battleships in. Hadn't thought of ongoing fighting in the Far East during British Elections 1945 - very nice to know.  |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on May 4, 2024 11:49:15 GMT
India is a mess for everybody. How bad or not it goes depends on what the assorted groups do. What happens there will set lines for the rest of the empire as its gradually moved towards independence although some areas are likely to take much longer than others. [And that's leaving out regions such as British Honduras, the Falklands, Hong Kong and possibly a few others which will want a continued link for longer because their reliant on British protection against an external threat].
Roosevelt may well want in on the Indian market but would probably not have a major role if it becomes independent fairly soon. A Congress government which is probably the most likely would probably be highly protectionist as OTL and highly state oriented.
Which makes me think. With Europe avoiding the OTL devastation and so far anyway also Japan the US isn't going to be as overwhelmingly dominant as it was in 1945, when about 45-50% of GDP was in the US and much of Europe especially will be significant rivals. As such the US is likely to stay strongly protectionist itself so there won't be the big incentive for the move towards free trade there was OTL. Similarly in Britain would pro free-trade elements look towards expanding the imperial free trade zone and possibly also seek to include India into it or look towards something similar to the OTL EFTA although whether any of the other big states would be likely to join such an idea I don't know. Can't see France being willing and Germany could be too controversial.
Also a lot would depend on what happens in Palestine as that could drastically affect Britain's standing with the Muslim and especially the Arab world. I suspect that without the genocide in Europe at anything like such a level there could be no real Israel here. A lot of Jews, especially in eastern and central Europe are likely to want to go somewhere but what options would be open? Unless someone - probably Britain - offers a 'national homeland' somewhere else the only real options would be Palestine or the US and the door to both could be closed or at least pretty close to.
Hadn't consider the situation in France but its going to be interesting. De Gaulle is going to be a minor figure at most and could end up fighting rebels somewhere if especially say FIC kicks off earlier. The existing parties are likely to be boosted given the success in the war and the hard right are going to be discredited.
Would agree that a war in the Far East, even with Japan would be unlikely to affect the date of elections. True military and other figures pulled into the war zone would have limitations on their voting capacity but the vast bulk of the population and the economy are fully able to take part. As OTL when the election in 45 was held with a lot of troops fighting in the Far East.
Now I was only able to download an overview of a book but the essentials was that Roosevelt said he wanted the British to give the Indians more selfdetermination but Churchill's resistance and India's commitment to the Allied cause made him keep talking but not doing. I thus have R keep talking but realizing that with the position of the British and French there is no way of having them de-colonize. The Scandinavians will be looking to Britain trade-vise as its their market and France due to military strength though this may not seem as evident as the perception post Great War - at least not to those in the know of modern warfare.
Palestine - I think the British would continue to keep the Palestinians and Jews off its others backs (and their) and keep postpone fulfilling promises to either. The European Jews may like to resettle in other European Nations as they viewed themselves as party to those. As they - generally - except in Germany and occupied areas have been living and having freedom and not being impoverished. Problem is of course those of Eastern Europe - Poland, Hungary, Slovakia - with Poland of course the worst but some form of German reparations will have to be instituted. Perhaps countered with the threat of Border revision in the East of Germany! With less displaced persons and thus less wanting to go to Palestine the local problem of the British isn't going to grow too much.
France - well Petain is still Ambassador to Spain! OTL he only was recalled 18 May 1940. Still remembered as the hero of the Great War but a critic or two might remind the public of his 1934 critique of the military value of the British Army and anyway as You point to the Far Right have been discredited. de Gaulle may still want a seat in Parliament and he may have the military credentials to get such but nowhere near OTL stature. He might even see a posting to FIC a way of earning more popularity.
OTOH I'm thinking that Japan will have a harder time overrunning FIC at least ITTL the French will have some more troops, Aircraft and a Navy of some value and support by the RN. It won't be a Japanese offensive on a shoestring; the WAllied Navy Force of 7 Battleships and Battlecruisers as well as 3 Aircraft Carriers will force the IJN to divert as serious force to keep an eye on them - they still counted Battleships in. Hadn't thought of ongoing fighting in the Far East during British Elections 1945 - very nice to know.
In terms of India that's a very big reason for why I would prefer Labour to win the forthcoming election. Churchill will have the prestige of a successful war without a lot of the OTL errors and defeat so he's likely to have his way in the Conservative Party which would be bad for India and Britain I fear.
If Japan goes for FIC here the French will definitely fight and Britain will join them. Which could make for some nasty battles for both sides. Japan probably already has an edge in Carrier air power but it would be less than OTL and air power, especially at sea would be less capable. On the other hand there's going to be no radar which will make surprise encounters, by sea and also by air more possible.
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575
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Post by 575 on May 10, 2024 9:41:19 GMT
Regarding Japan
It was known to have a Navy of some 12 Battleships four of which were reclassified Battle Cruisers. Japan had also laid down 4 new huge Battleships but these were shrouded in such secrecy that about nothing of their building was known.
It also had 10 Aircraft Carriers of which 3 were Light and 1 Escort.
Thus the 7 RN and French Battleships and Battlecruisers and 3 Aircraft Carriers were thought to be a suitable force to deter Japan from attacking as it would also have to take into consideration the USN Pacific Fleet.
Little was known of what the Japanese were about to decide upon of strategy and if the defeat of Nazi-Germany had robbed it of too much expostion to the European powers with the Anti-Comintern Axis being shattered.
Unknown to the WAllies even the Soviets was kept in the dark of Japanese intentions only being fed what Richard Sorge and his network were able to unveil.
Thus Stalin kept supplying the KMT in China to keep the Japanese in check.
President Roosevelt kept the pressure on the Japanese though he hadn't yet declared an embargo on oil. He well knew that he was in some way forced to have the WAllies enter the Far East waters with a serious Navy Force to deter Japanese focus on his country's assets in the Pacific. That also meant some cutting back on rhetoric of de-colonization something that alienated Ho Chi Mihn and the Indian leaders as these saw the USA as the force to politically handle the British and French colonials.
If little was known of Japanese ongoing builds of new Warships the new Aircraft of the IJN was better known – the Mitsubishi A6M was replacing the A5M as the Navy Fighter and the Aichi D3A Val replacing the former biplane Navy bombers which both had been encountered by the Chinese at Hainan and Chongqing operating from land bases.
As such little was known to the Aircraft's deployment on Aircraft Carriers but Sorge managed to get information on this.
The WAllies had also obtained information though from the Chinese.
To Japan the continued US pressure on it to end the War in China and control of Machuria as well as newly imposed US ban of sale of scrap iron made for a difficult situation.
Germany had been defeated and Italy its other partner in the Anti-Comintern Pact had kept neutral in the fight in Europe effectively both having deceived the Empire.
Now Japan was on its own.
The position of the Soviet Union was difficult to assess though still it supplied the Chinese with arms and other supplies it had kept to the agreements post Khalkin-Gol. It was clear however that without an ongoing War in Europe Stalin would be free to act in Manchuria and from his track record it seemed he was going for the former Russian territory and areas of influence.
The WAllies had built up their positions in the Far East. During the War in Europe France had sent troops and aircraft to FIC to bolster their defences against the threat of Thailand and a strong combined WAllied Fleet was on its way to Cam Rahn Bay and Singapore. French landbased aircraft had already begun arriving in FIC – long range fighters, light bombers and Torpedobombers. Ho Chi Mihn's minions had informed the Empire as they had been rejected by the US too.
It would be time to act before the year 1941 would run out if not Japan would be forced to detail a large Fleet to the South China Sea to check the WAllies.
Not known to the Japanese that the RN Battleships and Swordfish torpedobombers aboard the RN Aircraft Carriers were fitted with radar.
The French had had the good sense to ship off a Radarset along the Navy landbased aircraft to FIC with the experiences of the recent War in mind.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on May 10, 2024 13:54:49 GMT
Regarding Japan It was known to have a Navy of some 12 Battleships four of which were reclassified Battle Cruisers. Japan had also laid down 4 new huge Battleships but these were shrouded in such secrecy that about nothing of their building was known. It also had 10 Aircraft Carriers of which 3 were Light and 1 Escort. Thus the 7 RN and French Battleships and Battlecruisers and 3 Aircraft Carriers were thought to be a suitable force to deter Japan from attacking as it would also have to take into consideration the USN Pacific Fleet. Little was known of what the Japanese were about to decide upon of strategy and if the defeat of Nazi-Germany had robbed it of too much expostion to the European powers with the Anti-Comintern Axis being shattered. Unknown to the WAllies even the Soviets was kept in the dark of Japanese intentions only being fed what Richard Sorge and his network were able to unveil. Thus Stalin kept supplying the KMT in China to keep the Japanese in check. President Roosevelt kept the pressure on the Japanese though he hadn't yet declared an embargo on oil. He well knew that he was in some way forced to have the WAllies enter the Far East waters with a serious Navy Force to deter Japanese focus on his country's assets in the Pacific. That also meant some cutting back on rhetoric of de-colonization something that alienated Ho Chi Mihn and the Indian leaders as these saw the USA as the force to politically handle the British and French colonials. If little was known of Japanese ongoing builds of new Warships the new Aircraft of the IJN was better known – the Mitsubishi A6M was replacing the A5M as the Navy Fighter and the Aichi D3A Val replacing the former biplane Navy bombers which both had been encountered by the Chinese at Hainan and Chongqing operating from land bases. As such little was known to the Aircraft's deployment on Aircraft Carriers but Sorge managed to get information on this. The WAllies had also obtained information though from the Chinese. To Japan the continued US pressure on it to end the War in China and control of Machuria as well as newly imposed US ban of sale of scrap iron made for a difficult situation. Germany had been defeated and Italy its other partner in the Anti-Comintern Pact had kept neutral in the fight in Europe effectively both having deceived the Empire. Now Japan was on its own. The position of the Soviet Union was difficult to assess though still it supplied the Chinese with arms and other supplies it had kept to the agreements post Khalkin-Gol. It was clear however that without an ongoing War in Europe Stalin would be free to act in Manchuria and from his track record it seemed he was going for the former Russian territory and areas of influence. The WAllies had built up their positions in the Far East. During the War in Europe France had sent troops and aircraft to FIC to bolster their defences against the threat of Thailand and a strong combined WAllied Fleet was on its way to Cam Rahn Bay and Singapore. French landbased aircraft had already begun arriving in FIC – long range fighters, light bombers and Torpedobombers. Ho Chi Mihn's minions had informed the Empire as they had been rejected by the US too. It would be time to act before the year 1941 would run out if not Japan would be forced to detail a large Fleet to the South China Sea to check the WAllies. Not known to the Japanese that the RN Battleships and Swordfish torpedobombers aboard the RN Aircraft Carriers were fitted with radar. The French had had the good sense to ship off a Radarset along the Navy landbased aircraft to FIC with the experiences of the recent War in mind.
Sounds like unless there is a sudden outbreak of sanity in Japan its going to jump. Assuming it goes as OTL, against both the western allies and the US then its going to be a messy conflict. Can't see them having the resources to try a Pearl Harbour attack against the US Pacific fleet because of the forces that the allies will be bringing in to protect their interests. Plus with FIC held against them attacks against Malaya and the western DEI will be harder. While any attack against the DEI will be a political own goal as its a neutral nation but will be necessary if they want its resources.
However if there are Japanese attacks against the Philippines, Guam and Wake while the main strength heads south what does the US do>
Also if war breaks out in the Pacific what is Stalin's decision, sit tight, try some nibbling at the fringes somewhere, go east against Japan or go west against the allies. I think initially sit tight as he might think Japan will go down quickly then possibly move in for the kill to try and get some 'easy' gains.
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575
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Post by 575 on May 10, 2024 14:24:50 GMT
Regarding Japan It was known to have a Navy of some 12 Battleships four of which were reclassified Battle Cruisers. Japan had also laid down 4 new huge Battleships but these were shrouded in such secrecy that about nothing of their building was known. It also had 10 Aircraft Carriers of which 3 were Light and 1 Escort. Thus the 7 RN and French Battleships and Battlecruisers and 3 Aircraft Carriers were thought to be a suitable force to deter Japan from attacking as it would also have to take into consideration the USN Pacific Fleet. Little was known of what the Japanese were about to decide upon of strategy and if the defeat of Nazi-Germany had robbed it of too much expostion to the European powers with the Anti-Comintern Axis being shattered. Unknown to the WAllies even the Soviets was kept in the dark of Japanese intentions only being fed what Richard Sorge and his network were able to unveil. Thus Stalin kept supplying the KMT in China to keep the Japanese in check. President Roosevelt kept the pressure on the Japanese though he hadn't yet declared an embargo on oil. He well knew that he was in some way forced to have the WAllies enter the Far East waters with a serious Navy Force to deter Japanese focus on his country's assets in the Pacific. That also meant some cutting back on rhetoric of de-colonization something that alienated Ho Chi Mihn and the Indian leaders as these saw the USA as the force to politically handle the British and French colonials. If little was known of Japanese ongoing builds of new Warships the new Aircraft of the IJN was better known – the Mitsubishi A6M was replacing the A5M as the Navy Fighter and the Aichi D3A Val replacing the former biplane Navy bombers which both had been encountered by the Chinese at Hainan and Chongqing operating from land bases. As such little was known to the Aircraft's deployment on Aircraft Carriers but Sorge managed to get information on this. The WAllies had also obtained information though from the Chinese. To Japan the continued US pressure on it to end the War in China and control of Machuria as well as newly imposed US ban of sale of scrap iron made for a difficult situation. Germany had been defeated and Italy its other partner in the Anti-Comintern Pact had kept neutral in the fight in Europe effectively both having deceived the Empire. Now Japan was on its own. The position of the Soviet Union was difficult to assess though still it supplied the Chinese with arms and other supplies it had kept to the agreements post Khalkin-Gol. It was clear however that without an ongoing War in Europe Stalin would be free to act in Manchuria and from his track record it seemed he was going for the former Russian territory and areas of influence. The WAllies had built up their positions in the Far East. During the War in Europe France had sent troops and aircraft to FIC to bolster their defences against the threat of Thailand and a strong combined WAllied Fleet was on its way to Cam Rahn Bay and Singapore. French landbased aircraft had already begun arriving in FIC – long range fighters, light bombers and Torpedobombers. Ho Chi Mihn's minions had informed the Empire as they had been rejected by the US too. It would be time to act before the year 1941 would run out if not Japan would be forced to detail a large Fleet to the South China Sea to check the WAllies. Not known to the Japanese that the RN Battleships and Swordfish torpedobombers aboard the RN Aircraft Carriers were fitted with radar. The French had had the good sense to ship off a Radarset along the Navy landbased aircraft to FIC with the experiences of the recent War in mind.
Sounds like unless there is a sudden outbreak of sanity in Japan its going to jump. Assuming it goes as OTL, against both the western allies and the US then its going to be a messy conflict. Can't see them having the resources to try a Pearl Harbour attack against the US Pacific fleet because of the forces that the allies will be bringing in to protect their interests. Plus with FIC held against them attacks against Malaya and the western DEI will be harder. While any attack against the DEI will be a political own goal as its a neutral nation but will be necessary if they want its resources.
However if there are Japanese attacks against the Philippines, Guam and Wake while the main strength heads south what does the US do>
Also if war breaks out in the Pacific what is Stalin's decision, sit tight, try some nibbling at the fringes somewhere, go east against Japan or go west against the allies. I think initially sit tight as he might think Japan will go down quickly then possibly move in for the kill to try and get some 'easy' gains.
I am really in several minds - there is no US oil boycot as there have been no Japanese pressure to get bases in FIC or move into it. OTOH I have really difficulty in seeing where Japanese would go if not the Soviets as with the British - French naval presence it seems unlikely that the IJN should split its forces to go at both Pearl and SEA. They would have to to counter British and French Carriers and Air. With a Soviet Union having its back free in the West and still supplying KMT/China Japan have limited options.
The Japanese going for DEI oil and Straits rubber would need to neutralize the US and British - French. The Dutch really would like an alliance with the Great Powers. Going against the Soviets really won't yield much except territory in Sibiria.. I don't see the Soviets getting anything from the US - British - French in such a scenario.
Really the Japanese have painted themselves into a corner. Any ideas - comments welcome.
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