575
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Post by 575 on Apr 21, 2024 8:31:28 GMT
This looks like a very mild peace. Sure, the war was pretty short, but still. Due to the short war and not so extensive Nazi crimes against humanity as OTL - BUT quite some is going to be treated in following posts. |
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575
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Post by 575 on Apr 21, 2024 9:19:04 GMT
The inter-Allied cooperating got a little strained over the negotiations of the form of Peace protocol to deliver to Germany.
The French hadn't any trouble with the Poles wanting reparations in the form of German territory like East Prussia or Silesia but Churchill rejected it as such issues had been decided by referendums post the Great War – it would only serve to lessen their cause and the legitimacy of the LoN which was still an institution in being even if it would be argued that it had failed but it had been dependant upon the goodwill of the memberstates.
The Poles wouldn't like it but weren't in a position of strength.
LoN should decide if Poland would be the one to administer Danzig/Gdansk. Also Churchill proposed the French that a British – French base be set up in Danzig to keep an eye on the Poles regaring the Germans and an outward hands on the Germans.
For the time being both agreed to continue the negotiations to finish as it would prolong the occupation of Germany and both wanted to end it.
A decision on German future level of armament had to be reached but also leave room time and military force to settle matters in Eastern Europe and reach a understanding with Stalin though that seemed to be taken care of. At least the determination to undo Nazi changes in Eastern Europe had found a string with Stalin and had him back out of the Baltic Nations and re-ratify the Finn Peace with the British and French as co-signatories.
This also made for time to rig listening systems in Finland, Poland and Eastern Czechoslovakia – once the Czechs had ended the Slovak regime to get a better picture of what was happening in the Soviet Union. The Poles had been outwardly negative of this but in a closed forum had agreed to participate. Its future might depend upon it.
The remains of the German Navy was agreed upon – scrapping the few remaining Submarines, handing over the partially build Aircraft Carrier Graf Zeppelin, Battleship Bismarck, Battlecruiser Scharnhorst and breaking up the laid down Battleship Tirpitz and still in repairs Battlecruiser Gneisenau.
The French wanted another Aircraft Carrier as a replacement for the venerable Bearn so got that and Scharnhorst as Britain took Bismarck.
Thus the German Navy would be limited to 3 CA: Adm. Scheer, Adm. Hipper and Blücher, 1 CL Leipzig, 15 DD. Only with bases in the Baltic.
The Imperial Cities of Bremen and Hamburg would become a British and a French Navy Base.
The German Army would consist of 10 Infantry Divisions to be based in East Prussia, West Prussia and Silesia. A British – French Army Base would be set up at Lüneburger Heide in Northern Germany which would also house an Air Element. The British found it would be a good idea to be not too distand from the Polish Western border.
The German Airforce was allowed 3 Fighter Groups and 2 Reconnaisance Groups in the East. No bases in Central, Western or Southern Germany.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Apr 21, 2024 9:52:22 GMT
The inter-Allied cooperating got a little strained over the negotiations of the form of Peace protocol to deliver to Germany. The French hadn't any trouble with the Poles wanting reparations in the form of German territory like East Prussia or Silesia but Churchill rejected it as such issues had been decided by referendums post the Great War – it would only serve to lessen their cause and the legitimacy of the LoN which was still an institution in being even if it would be argued that it had failed but it had been dependant upon the goodwill of the memberstates. The Poles wouldn't like it but weren't in a position of strength. LoN should decide if Poland would be the one to administer Danzig/Gdansk. Also Churchill proposed the French that a British – French base be set up in Danzig to keep an eye on the Poles regaring the Germans and an outward hands on the Germans. For the time being both agreed to continue the negotiations to finish as it would prolong the occupation of Germany and both wanted to end it. A decision on German future level of armament had to be reached but also leave room time and military force to settle matters in Eastern Europe and reach a understanding with Stalin though that seemed to be taken care of. At least the determination to undo Nazi changes in Eastern Europe had found a string with Stalin and had him back out of the Baltic Nations and re-ratify the Finn Peace with the British and French as co-signatories. This also made for time to rig listening systems in Finland, Poland and Eastern Czechoslovakia – once the Czechs had ended the Slovak regime to get a better picture of what was happening in the Soviet Union. The Poles had been outwardly negative of this but in a closed forum had agreed to participate. Its future might depend upon it. The remains of the German Navy was agreed upon – scrapping the few remaining Submarines, handing over the partially build Aircraft Carrier Graf Zeppelin, Battleship Bismarck, Battlecruiser Scharnhorst and breaking up the laid down Battleship Tirpitz and still in repairs Battlecruiser Gneisenau. The French wanted another Aircraft Carrier as a replacement for the venerable Bearn so got that and Scharnhorst as Britain took Bismarck. Thus the German Navy would be limited to 3 CA: Adm. Scheer, Adm. Hipper and Blücher, 1 CL Leipzig, 15 DD. Only with bases in the Baltic. The Imperial Cities of Bremen and Hamburg would become a British and a French Navy Base. The German Army would consist of 10 Infantry Divisions to be based in East Prussia, West Prussia and Silesia. A British – French Army Base would be set up at Lüneburger Heide in Northern Germany which would also house an Air Element. The British found it would be a good idea to be not too distand from the Polish Western border. The German Airforce was allowed 3 Fighter Groups and 2 Reconnaisance Groups in the East. No bases in Central, Western or Southern Germany.
So Germany has a small army based in the east, which will ease their concerns about both the Poles and the Soviets - although without the annexation of the Baltic states there's no German-Soviet common border. Plus there is a small allied army of [non] occupation in western Germany which as long as its there eases French and Belgium concerns about Germany. Are there limits on what the Germans can have in areas such as artillery, armour and a/c especially? I suspect not greatly so but wondering. Also is it forced back into a volunteer army or are they using a low level of conscription or up to Germany?
The bases at Bremen and Hamburg in allied hands is likely to cause some continued tension, along with the army in the NW. Are there conditions on how long this lasts or are the allies basically saying 'you started and lost the war so shut up'?
Not sure what Britain will do with Bismarck but at least they can get an idea of German designs and some aspect of technology. Possibly also use it for testing as wit the Baden after WWII. By most account GZ was a total mess so the French might end up simply scrapping it unless its so early in construction they can, possibly helped by Britain which has a lot more carrier experience albeit with some issues, totally redesign it.
Which raises the question about naval programmes. France may or may not continue their naval programmes beyond the 1st two Richelieu class BBs depending on funding and other issues. With Germany removed from the board and Italy isolated and probably cowered there is still the Pacific naval race along with concerns about Japanese actions in China Britain is likely to continue its new construction, especially of BB and CVs although possibly with some design changes to allow for war experience and technology. [Thinking in the latter with what experience has happened with CV in the war and also the development of radar possibly the later armoured CV could be replaced by a design with less armoured protection but a larger air squad. Plus the RN having control of the FAA for longer so they have more input into a/c design.
There is a related point here in terms of what other powers, US, Japan and USSR have learnt [rightly or wrongly] from what their seen of the war. Also what has changed in China and in relations in the Far East. Coming off a bloody and costly but successful war how eager or not are Britain and France to increase support again for the KMT?
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575
Captain
There is no Purgatory for warcriminals - they go directly to Hell!
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Post by 575 on Apr 21, 2024 10:53:41 GMT
The inter-Allied cooperating got a little strained over the negotiations of the form of Peace protocol to deliver to Germany. The French hadn't any trouble with the Poles wanting reparations in the form of German territory like East Prussia or Silesia but Churchill rejected it as such issues had been decided by referendums post the Great War – it would only serve to lessen their cause and the legitimacy of the LoN which was still an institution in being even if it would be argued that it had failed but it had been dependant upon the goodwill of the memberstates. The Poles wouldn't like it but weren't in a position of strength. LoN should decide if Poland would be the one to administer Danzig/Gdansk. Also Churchill proposed the French that a British – French base be set up in Danzig to keep an eye on the Poles regaring the Germans and an outward hands on the Germans. For the time being both agreed to continue the negotiations to finish as it would prolong the occupation of Germany and both wanted to end it. A decision on German future level of armament had to be reached but also leave room time and military force to settle matters in Eastern Europe and reach a understanding with Stalin though that seemed to be taken care of. At least the determination to undo Nazi changes in Eastern Europe had found a string with Stalin and had him back out of the Baltic Nations and re-ratify the Finn Peace with the British and French as co-signatories. This also made for time to rig listening systems in Finland, Poland and Eastern Czechoslovakia – once the Czechs had ended the Slovak regime to get a better picture of what was happening in the Soviet Union. The Poles had been outwardly negative of this but in a closed forum had agreed to participate. Its future might depend upon it. The remains of the German Navy was agreed upon – scrapping the few remaining Submarines, handing over the partially build Aircraft Carrier Graf Zeppelin, Battleship Bismarck, Battlecruiser Scharnhorst and breaking up the laid down Battleship Tirpitz and still in repairs Battlecruiser Gneisenau. The French wanted another Aircraft Carrier as a replacement for the venerable Bearn so got that and Scharnhorst as Britain took Bismarck. Thus the German Navy would be limited to 3 CA: Adm. Scheer, Adm. Hipper and Blücher, 1 CL Leipzig, 15 DD. Only with bases in the Baltic. The Imperial Cities of Bremen and Hamburg would become a British and a French Navy Base. The German Army would consist of 10 Infantry Divisions to be based in East Prussia, West Prussia and Silesia. A British – French Army Base would be set up at Lüneburger Heide in Northern Germany which would also house an Air Element. The British found it would be a good idea to be not too distand from the Polish Western border. The German Airforce was allowed 3 Fighter Groups and 2 Reconnaisance Groups in the East. No bases in Central, Western or Southern Germany.
So Germany has a small army based in the east, which will ease their concerns about both the Poles and the Soviets - although without the annexation of the Baltic states there's no German-Soviet common border. Plus there is a small allied army of [non] occupation in western Germany which as long as its there eases French and Belgium concerns about Germany. Are there limits on what the Germans can have in areas such as artillery, armour and a/c especially? I suspect not greatly so but wondering. Also is it forced back into a volunteer army or are they using a low level of conscription or up to Germany?
The bases at Bremen and Hamburg in allied hands is likely to cause some continued tension, along with the army in the NW. Are there conditions on how long this lasts or are the allies basically saying 'you started and lost the war so shut up'?
Not sure what Britain will do with Bismarck but at least they can get an idea of German designs and some aspect of technology. Possibly also use it for testing as wit the Baden after WWII. By most account GZ was a total mess so the French might end up simply scrapping it unless its so early in construction they can, possibly helped by Britain which has a lot more carrier experience albeit with some issues, totally redesign it.
Which raises the question about naval programmes. France may or may not continue their naval programmes beyond the 1st two Richelieu class BBs depending on funding and other issues. With Germany removed from the board and Italy isolated and probably cowered there is still the Pacific naval race along with concerns about Japanese actions in China Britain is likely to continue its new construction, especially of BB and CVs although possibly with some design changes to allow for war experience and technology. [Thinking in the latter with what experience has happened with CV in the war and also the development of radar possibly the later armoured CV could be replaced by a design with less armoured protection but a larger air squad. Plus the RN having control of the FAA for longer so they have more input into a/c design.
There is a related point here in terms of what other powers, US, Japan and USSR have learnt [rightly or wrongly] from what their seen of the war. Also what has changed in China and in relations in the Far East. Coming off a bloody and costly but successful war how eager or not are Britain and France to increase support again for the KMT?
TTL is about an ATL War in Europe NOT WWII. A Pacific War may occur but it still will not be WWII. The Nazi-regime as I already have outline have been conducting crimes against humanity in Poland and Germany and to some degree in Czechoslovakia, Austria and occupied areas of Belgium and France. I'm trying to run the TL to this premise so am not going to introduce Nürnberg etc.
Post Versailles Germany was allowed a small professionel Army - I think that was actually (and a History Teacher in High-School thought so too) part and parcel to the quick huge mobilization of Nazi-Germany so a Conscription Army - Navy - Airforce will be allowed instead of the failed Versailles experiment. No limits as such on arms. Realizing the Soviet threat not having vanished a sound investment in the future will be Artillery of say 88mm, Light Tanks - PzI + II, Fighter and Reconnaisance Aircraft. Basically a tripwire in the East. Arms production limitations as well. No I'm not a fool even Weimar found ways of circumventing Versailles establishing Arms and Aircraft Factories in Switzerland, Sweden, Denmark, Netherlands (Fokker cooperation) and Italy at least. So Germany may well do so here. Money always find a way. Its more a try on getting peoples into office that are willing to limit such and actually make parliamentary politics work!
The Germans were defeated fair and square - no deceit - no stab in the back this time. The supply situation was growing bad - the Germans were freezing but not areabombed by RAF. As in any country enduring a limited occupation there will be animosity. Without having the French and others occupy Ruhr - and alienate German Workers the kind of peoples the Allies have to rely on to make another Germany - this will be much reined in. Could have written lets have British Conservatives and French militarists run the show and fuck the Germans and hey had to write round 3 in another 25 years (TL time). Threat of occupation didn't do much good to Germans here a try at lesser occupation. Give my your shot? I expect some sort of sanity within Allied heads but if it were all Conservatives and militarists and You convince me of that I'll abandon ship. Due to the timeextension compared to OTL and lesser losses and WAllies actually stopping and then defeating the Germans on their own things have to differ. Coventry didn't happen! Nor Oradour-sur-Glane. Nor Holocaust as we know it.
So yes basically the Allies saying to the Germans "We'll be out when You have learned to behave - might be tomorrow!" A time limit will only serve for the oppressed to endure and MaxS will then tell me that unlimited will only serve to deepen the trench but the Allied occupation of OTL didn't long - 10 years if we count allowing Germany to rearm and enter NATO. Or have fun and give me Your shot? Still its way lax compared to OTL 1945-55.
The Victors divided the spoils - GZ seemed to be lacking it island and guns at 85% finished:
Bundesarchiv pics.
As the WAllies doesn't have a Nuke to test those can be used for artillery tests, finished, inspected or what not. The British may dislike the Bismarck but let Naval little brother have some toys. Given the financial state of both they may ultimately decide not to use the ships or just keep as powerfull-vessel-in-being. At least Bismarck and Scharnhorst.
I have a post coming up on French Navy builds so will leave that to later. Illustrious class armoured carriers had all but one been in service in the timeframe of ITTL with Indomitable by 10 October 1941. Changes in British design would be post this class. I don't see the RN or MN getting much Carrier operations know-how out of this sort of Land/Air War. With the Kriegsmarine defeated so early and Italians sitting tight. A War in the Pacific will still be a surprise to them. Even GZ was designed to European conflict - look up the bastard even more armoured than the Illustrious-class.
The Japanese and US Navy won't have much to think about in this war. The Japanese may still (mis)use their Subs against Warships. On land all should notice that the Heavy Tank with armour, gun and engine to survive, kill and move is the thing of the future. The Japanse probably won't see it as usefull as it will be too bulky and heavy for their intended operations except in China (and Soviet Union). The Soviets will be confirmed that the T-34 is the way ahead.
I haven't even thought about the World outside Europe yet - heck there are SO MUCH to consider and look up to make this TL just have a scent of realism.
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575
Captain
There is no Purgatory for warcriminals - they go directly to Hell!
Posts: 2,733
Likes: 4,109
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Post by 575 on Apr 21, 2024 11:26:56 GMT
Re: political situation in Germany - think charged with "only" domestic issues and not labelled "doing crimes against humanity" will make the judicial battle in Germany way easier - not as in everyday easy but easier then having been named bogeyman of World society! Which may pave the way for lifting limited occupation from it.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Apr 21, 2024 15:43:44 GMT
So Germany has a small army based in the east, which will ease their concerns about both the Poles and the Soviets - although without the annexation of the Baltic states there's no German-Soviet common border. Plus there is a small allied army of [non] occupation in western Germany which as long as its there eases French and Belgium concerns about Germany. Are there limits on what the Germans can have in areas such as artillery, armour and a/c especially? I suspect not greatly so but wondering. Also is it forced back into a volunteer army or are they using a low level of conscription or up to Germany?
The bases at Bremen and Hamburg in allied hands is likely to cause some continued tension, along with the army in the NW. Are there conditions on how long this lasts or are the allies basically saying 'you started and lost the war so shut up'?
Not sure what Britain will do with Bismarck but at least they can get an idea of German designs and some aspect of technology. Possibly also use it for testing as wit the Baden after WWII. By most account GZ was a total mess so the French might end up simply scrapping it unless its so early in construction they can, possibly helped by Britain which has a lot more carrier experience albeit with some issues, totally redesign it.
Which raises the question about naval programmes. France may or may not continue their naval programmes beyond the 1st two Richelieu class BBs depending on funding and other issues. With Germany removed from the board and Italy isolated and probably cowered there is still the Pacific naval race along with concerns about Japanese actions in China Britain is likely to continue its new construction, especially of BB and CVs although possibly with some design changes to allow for war experience and technology. [Thinking in the latter with what experience has happened with CV in the war and also the development of radar possibly the later armoured CV could be replaced by a design with less armoured protection but a larger air squad. Plus the RN having control of the FAA for longer so they have more input into a/c design.
There is a related point here in terms of what other powers, US, Japan and USSR have learnt [rightly or wrongly] from what their seen of the war. Also what has changed in China and in relations in the Far East. Coming off a bloody and costly but successful war how eager or not are Britain and France to increase support again for the KMT?
TTL is about an ATL War in Europe NOT WWII. A Pacific War may occur but it still will not be WWII. The Nazi-regime as I already have outline have been conducting crimes against humanity in Poland and Germany and to some degree in Czechoslovakia, Austria and occupied areas of Belgium and France. I'm trying to run the TL to this premise so am not going to introduce Nürnberg etc.
Post Versailles Germany was allowed a small professionel Army - I think that was actually (and a History Teacher in High-School thought so too) part and parcel to the quick huge mobilization of Nazi-Germany so a Conscription Army - Navy - Airforce will be allowed instead of the failed Versailles experiment. No limits as such on arms. Realizing the Soviet threat not having vanished a sound investment in the future will be Artillery of say 88mm, Light Tanks - PzI + II, Fighter and Reconnaisance Aircraft. Basically a tripwire in the East. Arms production limitations as well. No I'm not a fool even Weimar found ways of circumventing Versailles establishing Arms and Aircraft Factories in Switzerland, Sweden, Denmark, Netherlands (Fokker cooperation) and Italy at least. So Germany may well do so here. Money always find a way. Its more a try on getting peoples into office that are willing to limit such and actually make parliamentary politics work!
The Germans were defeated fair and square - no deceit - no stab in the back this time. The supply situation was growing bad - the Germans were freezing but not areabombed by RAF. As in any country enduring a limited occupation there will be animosity. Without having the French and others occupy Ruhr - and alienate German Workers the kind of peoples the Allies have to rely on to make another Germany - this will be much reined in. Could have written lets have British Conservatives and French militarists run the show and fuck the Germans and hey had to write round 3 in another 25 years (TL time). Threat of occupation didn't do much good to Germans here a try at lesser occupation. Give my your shot? I expect some sort of sanity within Allied heads but if it were all Conservatives and militarists and You convince me of that I'll abandon ship. Due to the timeextension compared to OTL and lesser losses and WAllies actually stopping and then defeating the Germans on their own things have to differ. Coventry didn't happen! Nor Oradour-sur-Glane. Nor Holocaust as we know it.
So yes basically the Allies saying to the Germans "We'll be out when You have learned to behave - might be tomorrow!" A time limit will only serve for the oppressed to endure and MaxS will then tell me that unlimited will only serve to deepen the trench but the Allied occupation of OTL didn't long - 10 years if we count allowing Germany to rearm and enter NATO. Or have fun and give me Your shot? Still its way lax compared to OTL 1945-55.
The Victors divided the spoils - GZ seemed to be lacking it island and guns at 85% finished:
Bundesarchiv pics.
As the WAllies doesn't have a Nuke to test those can be used for artillery tests, finished, inspected or what not. The British may dislike the Bismarck but let Naval little brother have some toys. Given the financial state of both they may ultimately decide not to use the ships or just keep as powerfull-vessel-in-being. At least Bismarck and Scharnhorst.
I have a post coming up on French Navy builds so will leave that to later. Illustrious class armoured carriers had all but one been in service in the timeframe of ITTL with Indomitable by 10 October 1941. Changes in British design would be post this class. I don't see the RN or MN getting much Carrier operations know-how out of this sort of Land/Air War. With the Kriegsmarine defeated so early and Italians sitting tight. A War in the Pacific will still be a surprise to them. Even GZ was designed to European conflict - look up the bastard even more armoured than the Illustrious-class.
The Japanese and US Navy won't have much to think about in this war. The Japanese may still (mis)use their Subs against Warships. On land all should notice that the Heavy Tank with armour, gun and engine to survive, kill and move is the thing of the future. The Japanse probably won't see it as usefull as it will be too bulky and heavy for their intended operations except in China (and Soviet Union). The Soviets will be confirmed that the T-34 is the way ahead.
I haven't even thought about the World outside Europe yet - heck there are SO MUCH to consider and look up to make this TL just have a scent of realism.
OK thanks for clarifying on those details. I will mention a couple of points: a) OTL after WWI Germany tried its own people accused of war crimes and they pretty much all got off despite a number of nasty activities, at least by the standards of the time. This was a major reason why the allies decided in 1945 that there would be international trials of war crimes and crimes against humanity. While things have been nothing like as bad TTL as OTL I think they will want to make sure some German leaders get punished for their actions. There could well be some back-door deal where the military get a pass with possibly a sacrificial offering or two while its the Nazis that get blamed for everything.
b) In terms of British view of CV operations OTL the RN only regained control of the FAA in 1937 IIRC so they had very little time to integrate the existing RAF personal and a/c that they took over, or to do much in terms of design of a/c. Here their had 2 years of operation in a war environment which will give some practical experience of operations and the like. Furthermore the development of radar undermines the main basis of the armoured carrier. [That because it would be impossible to maintain a strong CAP against surprise attack it was best to rely on a strong AA suit and armour against air attack. Which in turn reduced the capacity for a large number of a/c on board, even without Britain not using deck storage as that was impractical in many northern latitudes.] As such the next class of RN CVs are likely to rely more on a/c for their defence as well as a strike force. Improved radar also makes it easier for a/c to find both targets and also their own ships on returning from a mission. Which reduces the need for a two man crew with a separate navigator/gunner in fighters so there's more capacity for more high performance single seat fighters - also boosted by the development of engines and other facilities. The RN is still likely to be behind the USN and IJN in carrier aviation but the gap could close somewhat whether a war in the Pacific occurs or not.
There was something else that occurred to me but its gone. 
Interesting point about what happens here with nuclear technology. People will have started looking at the idea but with the war cut short and most OTL programmes, especially the US one pretty much not yet started things are likely to be greatly delayed. As long as the Soviets making use of their vast resources and multiple agents and supporters in the west don't get there 1st!  Although with the way the war's gone the prestige of the democracies will have been boosted while many will see Stalin as a dangerous thug and part time ally of Hitler, which is likely to discredit communism in some eyes at least. |
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575
Captain
There is no Purgatory for warcriminals - they go directly to Hell!
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Post by 575 on Apr 21, 2024 17:05:17 GMT
TTL is about an ATL War in Europe NOT WWII. A Pacific War may occur but it still will not be WWII. The Nazi-regime as I already have outline have been conducting crimes against humanity in Poland and Germany and to some degree in Czechoslovakia, Austria and occupied areas of Belgium and France. I'm trying to run the TL to this premise so am not going to introduce Nürnberg etc.
Post Versailles Germany was allowed a small professionel Army - I think that was actually (and a History Teacher in High-School thought so too) part and parcel to the quick huge mobilization of Nazi-Germany so a Conscription Army - Navy - Airforce will be allowed instead of the failed Versailles experiment. No limits as such on arms. Realizing the Soviet threat not having vanished a sound investment in the future will be Artillery of say 88mm, Light Tanks - PzI + II, Fighter and Reconnaisance Aircraft. Basically a tripwire in the East. Arms production limitations as well. No I'm not a fool even Weimar found ways of circumventing Versailles establishing Arms and Aircraft Factories in Switzerland, Sweden, Denmark, Netherlands (Fokker cooperation) and Italy at least. So Germany may well do so here. Money always find a way. Its more a try on getting peoples into office that are willing to limit such and actually make parliamentary politics work!
The Germans were defeated fair and square - no deceit - no stab in the back this time. The supply situation was growing bad - the Germans were freezing but not areabombed by RAF. As in any country enduring a limited occupation there will be animosity. Without having the French and others occupy Ruhr - and alienate German Workers the kind of peoples the Allies have to rely on to make another Germany - this will be much reined in. Could have written lets have British Conservatives and French militarists run the show and fuck the Germans and hey had to write round 3 in another 25 years (TL time). Threat of occupation didn't do much good to Germans here a try at lesser occupation. Give my your shot? I expect some sort of sanity within Allied heads but if it were all Conservatives and militarists and You convince me of that I'll abandon ship. Due to the timeextension compared to OTL and lesser losses and WAllies actually stopping and then defeating the Germans on their own things have to differ. Coventry didn't happen! Nor Oradour-sur-Glane. Nor Holocaust as we know it.
So yes basically the Allies saying to the Germans "We'll be out when You have learned to behave - might be tomorrow!" A time limit will only serve for the oppressed to endure and MaxS will then tell me that unlimited will only serve to deepen the trench but the Allied occupation of OTL didn't long - 10 years if we count allowing Germany to rearm and enter NATO. Or have fun and give me Your shot? Still its way lax compared to OTL 1945-55.
The Victors divided the spoils - GZ seemed to be lacking it island and guns at 85% finished:
Bundesarchiv pics.
As the WAllies doesn't have a Nuke to test those can be used for artillery tests, finished, inspected or what not. The British may dislike the Bismarck but let Naval little brother have some toys. Given the financial state of both they may ultimately decide not to use the ships or just keep as powerfull-vessel-in-being. At least Bismarck and Scharnhorst.
I have a post coming up on French Navy builds so will leave that to later. Illustrious class armoured carriers had all but one been in service in the timeframe of ITTL with Indomitable by 10 October 1941. Changes in British design would be post this class. I don't see the RN or MN getting much Carrier operations know-how out of this sort of Land/Air War. With the Kriegsmarine defeated so early and Italians sitting tight. A War in the Pacific will still be a surprise to them. Even GZ was designed to European conflict - look up the bastard even more armoured than the Illustrious-class.
The Japanese and US Navy won't have much to think about in this war. The Japanese may still (mis)use their Subs against Warships. On land all should notice that the Heavy Tank with armour, gun and engine to survive, kill and move is the thing of the future. The Japanse probably won't see it as usefull as it will be too bulky and heavy for their intended operations except in China (and Soviet Union). The Soviets will be confirmed that the T-34 is the way ahead.
I haven't even thought about the World outside Europe yet - heck there are SO MUCH to consider and look up to make this TL just have a scent of realism.
OK thanks for clarifying on those details. I will mention a couple of points: a) OTL after WWI Germany tried its own people accused of war crimes and they pretty much all got off despite a number of nasty activities, at least by the standards of the time. This was a major reason why the allies decided in 1945 that there would be international trials of war crimes and crimes against humanity. While things have been nothing like as bad TTL as OTL I think they will want to make sure some German leaders get punished for their actions. There could well be some back-door deal where the military get a pass with possibly a sacrificial offering or two while its the Nazis that get blamed for everything.
b) In terms of British view of CV operations OTL the RN only regained control of the FAA in 1937 IIRC so they had very little time to integrate the existing RAF personal and a/c that they took over, or to do much in terms of design of a/c. Here their had 2 years of operation in a war environment which will give some practical experience of operations and the like. Furthermore the development of radar undermines the main basis of the armoured carrier. [That because it would be impossible to maintain a strong CAP against surprise attack it was best to rely on a strong AA suit and armour against air attack. Which in turn reduced the capacity for a large number of a/c on board, even without Britain not using deck storage as that was impractical in many northern latitudes.] As such the next class of RN CVs are likely to rely more on a/c for their defence as well as a strike force. Improved radar also makes it easier for a/c to find both targets and also their own ships on returning from a mission. Which reduces the need for a two man crew with a separate navigator/gunner in fighters so there's more capacity for more high performance single seat fighters - also boosted by the development of engines and other facilities. The RN is still likely to be behind the USN and IJN in carrier aviation but the gap could close somewhat whether a war in the Pacific occurs or not.
There was something else that occurred to me but its gone.
Interesting point about what happens here with nuclear technology. People will have started looking at the idea but with the war cut short and most OTL programmes, especially the US one pretty much not yet started things are likely to be greatly delayed. As long as the Soviets making use of their vast resources and multiple agents and supporters in the west don't get there 1st! Although with the way the war's gone the prestige of the democracies will have been boosted while many will see Stalin as a dangerous thug and part time ally of Hitler, which is likely to discredit communism in some eyes at least. stevep;
thanks for input 
a) A little problematic as the Nazi-leadership have been more or less viped out with basically just Göring left in office and Hess in a British Prison. Think the British will prosecute Hess. About the rest of the gang Hitler, Himmler, Hans Lammers, Goebbels and Goering have been killed. Hans Frank will he handed to the Poles, Konstantin v. Neurath will be handed to the Czech's. That leaves a few on the fringe of the inner circle like Speer and Bormann. The Belgians will want Luftwaffe to answer for Antwerp - will cover that later.
Speer may go back to architecture though Bormann could well be tried by the Germans. FM Keitel head OKW will be as cooperative as possible though could be tried by the Allies. Else the blame could be put on the Nazi-party to ease future cooperation with the Germans - it'll have to come by.
b) Thanks - however the Illustrious class is already in service but the successors will benefit from experiences. A number of the old CVs was sunk but Ark Royal was a forerunner of the new trend and is in service. So I think the RN will want to replace the old ships to be replace with a larger Ark Royal-design? Had a look at RN CVs - Courageous have been sunk, Argus, Hermes, Eagle, Glorious and Furious still around but need to be replaced. Ark Royal (54 AC), 3x Illustrious (36/40 AC) in service but the fourth was OTL changed to have 45 AC which will happen here. The two Implacable class is building (54 AC) will still be built as will Unicorn as it was a valuable addition I understand. Then there will be a jump to Audacious - class (50-60+ AC) though instead of 4 projected with 3 build some 10/12 build instead of 6x Majestic class and 10x Colossus class - with 12 built carrying as many AC as the two other classes in total. The escort carriers - Colossus class won't be needed due to wars end in Europe and the RN will get more Fleet Carriers. Reasonable?
If the gone pops up post it!
Nukes - why wouldn't the British keep it alive? The thought of it will be around. Stalin may not have heard that much of the interest in it at this time. The Belgians can supply the Uranium from Katanga. Bohr is at Copenhagen at his faculty. The man did contribute something to the development as a biography I read said that as he arrived at Los Alamos a problem couldn't be solved and Bohr had the solution. Danish documentaries hint to that his contribution being so important that the Americans really didn't like him go home - or it is just a muddle of secrecy and rumours. Whatever the man had been working at Rutherfords Laboraty during the 1920's so may accept and invitation - and he did do something said biography wrote for Tube Alloys! The French also had some work going on that ended up contributing to plutonium. It will be a longer run than the Manhattan Project though if the British and French really wanna do it they will be able to do it. The British had their first test by 1952 just seven years following Los Alamos so by 1948/9 a British French bomb should be tested? Main problem will be the Cambridge 5(?) - the British really need to beef up security though perhaps not to US paranoia scale! Just do it in the outback. A/C won't be a problem France build Rayak Airbase in Syria during the 1930's with A/C.
*** all of this have added a couple of pages to my notes. Will need time to sort stuff out so don't expect the recent rate of updates for the time being.
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stevep
Fleet admiral
Posts: 24,836
Likes: 13,225
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Post by stevep on Apr 21, 2024 22:31:13 GMT
OK thanks for clarifying on those details. I will mention a couple of points: a) OTL after WWI Germany tried its own people accused of war crimes and they pretty much all got off despite a number of nasty activities, at least by the standards of the time. This was a major reason why the allies decided in 1945 that there would be international trials of war crimes and crimes against humanity. While things have been nothing like as bad TTL as OTL I think they will want to make sure some German leaders get punished for their actions. There could well be some back-door deal where the military get a pass with possibly a sacrificial offering or two while its the Nazis that get blamed for everything.
b) In terms of British view of CV operations OTL the RN only regained control of the FAA in 1937 IIRC so they had very little time to integrate the existing RAF personal and a/c that they took over, or to do much in terms of design of a/c. Here their had 2 years of operation in a war environment which will give some practical experience of operations and the like. Furthermore the development of radar undermines the main basis of the armoured carrier. [That because it would be impossible to maintain a strong CAP against surprise attack it was best to rely on a strong AA suit and armour against air attack. Which in turn reduced the capacity for a large number of a/c on board, even without Britain not using deck storage as that was impractical in many northern latitudes.] As such the next class of RN CVs are likely to rely more on a/c for their defence as well as a strike force. Improved radar also makes it easier for a/c to find both targets and also their own ships on returning from a mission. Which reduces the need for a two man crew with a separate navigator/gunner in fighters so there's more capacity for more high performance single seat fighters - also boosted by the development of engines and other facilities. The RN is still likely to be behind the USN and IJN in carrier aviation but the gap could close somewhat whether a war in the Pacific occurs or not.
There was something else that occurred to me but its gone.
Interesting point about what happens here with nuclear technology. People will have started looking at the idea but with the war cut short and most OTL programmes, especially the US one pretty much not yet started things are likely to be greatly delayed. As long as the Soviets making use of their vast resources and multiple agents and supporters in the west don't get there 1st! Although with the way the war's gone the prestige of the democracies will have been boosted while many will see Stalin as a dangerous thug and part time ally of Hitler, which is likely to discredit communism in some eyes at least. stevep;
thanks for input
a) A little problematic as the Nazi-leadership have been more or less viped out with basically just Göring left in office and Hess in a British Prison. Think the British will prosecute Hess. About the rest of the gang Hitler, Himmler, Hans Lammers, Goebbels and Goering have been killed. Hans Frank will he handed to the Poles, Konstantin v. Neurath will be handed to the Czech's. That leaves a few on the fringe of the inner circle like Speer and Bormann. The Belgians will want Luftwaffe to answer for Antwerp - will cover that later.
Speer may go back to architecture though Bormann could well be tried by the Germans. FM Keitel head OKW will be as cooperative as possible though could be tried by the Allies. Else the blame could be put on the Nazi-party to ease future cooperation with the Germans - it'll have to come by.
b) Thanks - however the Illustrious class is already in service but the successors will benefit from experiences. A number of the old CVs was sunk but Ark Royal was a forerunner of the new trend and is in service. So I think the RN will want to replace the old ships to be replace with a larger Ark Royal-design? Had a look at RN CVs - Courageous have been sunk, Argus, Hermes, Eagle, Glorious and Furious still around but need to be replaced. Ark Royal (54 AC), 3x Illustrious (36/40 AC) in service but the fourth was OTL changed to have 45 AC which will happen here. The two Implacable class is building (54 AC) will still be built as will Unicorn as it was a valuable addition I understand. Then there will be a jump to Audacious - class (50-60+ AC) though instead of 4 projected with 3 build some 10/12 build instead of 6x Majestic class and 10x Colossus class - with 12 built carrying as many AC as the two other classes in total. The escort carriers - Colossus class won't be needed due to wars end in Europe and the RN will get more Fleet Carriers. Reasonable?
If the gone pops up post it!
Nukes - why wouldn't the British keep it alive? The thought of it will be around. Stalin may not have heard that much of the interest in it at this time. The Belgians can supply the Uranium from Katanga. Bohr is at Copenhagen at his faculty. The man did contribute something to the development as a biography I read said that as he arrived at Los Alamos a problem couldn't be solved and Bohr had the solution. Danish documentaries hint to that his contribution being so important that the Americans really didn't like him go home - or it is just a muddle of secrecy and rumours. Whatever the man had been working at Rutherfords Laboraty during the 1920's so may accept and invitation - and he did do something said biography wrote for Tube Alloys! The French also had some work going on that ended up contributing to plutonium. It will be a longer run than the Manhattan Project though if the British and French really wanna do it they will be able to do it. The British had their first test by 1952 just seven years following Los Alamos so by 1948/9 a British French bomb should be tested? Main problem will be the Cambridge 5(?) - the British really need to beef up security though perhaps not to US paranoia scale! Just do it in the outback. A/C won't be a problem France build Rayak Airbase in Syria during the 1930's with A/C.
*** all of this have added a couple of pages to my notes. Will need time to sort stuff out so don't expect the recent rate of updates for the time being.
a) It might be that a number of lower level Nazi regional governors and other upper/mid level party figures will be tried, although quite possibly not executed - but lengthy prison sentences - in agreement between the allies and the new German government. Both to get some justice for their victims in assorted massacres and imprisonments/executions and to 'show' that Germany has changed and is putting some distance between itself and Nazis ideas.
b) Thanks. Sounds promising.
c-i) One possible thing I was thinking of is what happens to the massed expats that OTL flowed largely to the US but also in some cases to the UK. Here there's going to be a lesser flow and probably few from Germany but they will probably be spread between US, UK and France as to where they end up. c-ii) - One thing I have seen suggested, by Konrad Adenauer after 1918 for the partition of Prussia by breaking it up into smaller states within Germany. the OTL former kingdom of Prussia was overwhelmingly dominant in Germany between the wars and some of what the Nazis achieved was aided by them controlling that. Also it allowed other areas to distance themselves form the Prussian junkers and military and reduce the power of the latter groups. OTL the assorted territorial changes and partition of Germany imposed this by force but I don't know whether there would be sufficient interest in this idea here.
d) On nukes it could go either way but I would expect the 1st nukes would definitely be later than 1945 and probably by a few years. True with no devastating war there's a lot more resources available but the war has been expensive and a nuclear programme, even if somewhat less gold-bricked that the OTL US one is going to be very bloody expensive. Plus without the fear of Germany developing the bomb there's markedly less incentive. Most politicians and of the general population will want a return to a civilian footing, reduced taxes and better standards of living while the longer sighted will probably want to start working on cutting down the war debts that have grown up and industrial/social and economic reforms.
There will definitely be work on nuclear weapons and a Anglo-French project, with possibly some help from some other Commonwealth and European scientists would be a good idea. Apart from anything else politically it would be good at reassuring the French about continued British interest in joint defence and also as a possible way of reassuring them about an answer to the German problem if it reared its head again which will be a continued concern in Paris and also Warsaw at least. However I would expect that its going to go at a much slower rate in terms of funding and general development. Your unlikely to have the same breadth of scientific and technical knowledge and resources that the OTL multi-national allied programme had. It would depend of course on how bad or good international relations are and whether there are other conflicts. [Although any western war with Japan is unlikely to see it as a high priority as there will be no real belief that Japan can develop a nuke.
Which raises the question of course about what the allies do about a possible German nuke? They can't really restrict research and might not want to mention it at all to avoid giving the Germans any ideas but the country does have a very broad and advanced technology base, which will be less handicapped with the Nazis out of the way.
The communist spies will be a serious problem for Britain and possibly also other powers. The only hope I can suggest is that in those circumstances communism and Stalinism is seen in a distinctly less favourable light and possibly someone either already recruited by the 5 or approached later decides no and exposed one of them leading to the entire group being exposed or forced to flee. Another advantage here is that without the Soviets as allies from 1941 on OTL there hasn't been the massive propaganda effort that Britain and America OTL developed to make them sound like good' allies.
Anyway another ramble of ideas before I turn in. Hopefully not posting too much and bloating the TL or wasting too much of your time.
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575
Captain
There is no Purgatory for warcriminals - they go directly to Hell!
Posts: 2,733
Likes: 4,109
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Post by 575 on Apr 22, 2024 6:33:07 GMT
stevep;
thanks for input
a) A little problematic as the Nazi-leadership have been more or less viped out with basically just Göring left in office and Hess in a British Prison. Think the British will prosecute Hess. About the rest of the gang Hitler, Himmler, Hans Lammers, Goebbels and Goering have been killed. Hans Frank will he handed to the Poles, Konstantin v. Neurath will be handed to the Czech's. That leaves a few on the fringe of the inner circle like Speer and Bormann. The Belgians will want Luftwaffe to answer for Antwerp - will cover that later.
Speer may go back to architecture though Bormann could well be tried by the Germans. FM Keitel head OKW will be as cooperative as possible though could be tried by the Allies. Else the blame could be put on the Nazi-party to ease future cooperation with the Germans - it'll have to come by.
b) Thanks - however the Illustrious class is already in service but the successors will benefit from experiences. A number of the old CVs was sunk but Ark Royal was a forerunner of the new trend and is in service. So I think the RN will want to replace the old ships to be replace with a larger Ark Royal-design? Had a look at RN CVs - Courageous have been sunk, Argus, Hermes, Eagle, Glorious and Furious still around but need to be replaced. Ark Royal (54 AC), 3x Illustrious (36/40 AC) in service but the fourth was OTL changed to have 45 AC which will happen here. The two Implacable class is building (54 AC) will still be built as will Unicorn as it was a valuable addition I understand. Then there will be a jump to Audacious - class (50-60+ AC) though instead of 4 projected with 3 build some 10/12 build instead of 6x Majestic class and 10x Colossus class - with 12 built carrying as many AC as the two other classes in total. The escort carriers - Colossus class won't be needed due to wars end in Europe and the RN will get more Fleet Carriers. Reasonable?
If the gone pops up post it!
Nukes - why wouldn't the British keep it alive? The thought of it will be around. Stalin may not have heard that much of the interest in it at this time. The Belgians can supply the Uranium from Katanga. Bohr is at Copenhagen at his faculty. The man did contribute something to the development as a biography I read said that as he arrived at Los Alamos a problem couldn't be solved and Bohr had the solution. Danish documentaries hint to that his contribution being so important that the Americans really didn't like him go home - or it is just a muddle of secrecy and rumours. Whatever the man had been working at Rutherfords Laboraty during the 1920's so may accept and invitation - and he did do something said biography wrote for Tube Alloys! The French also had some work going on that ended up contributing to plutonium. It will be a longer run than the Manhattan Project though if the British and French really wanna do it they will be able to do it. The British had their first test by 1952 just seven years following Los Alamos so by 1948/9 a British French bomb should be tested? Main problem will be the Cambridge 5(?) - the British really need to beef up security though perhaps not to US paranoia scale! Just do it in the outback. A/C won't be a problem France build Rayak Airbase in Syria during the 1930's with A/C.
*** all of this have added a couple of pages to my notes. Will need time to sort stuff out so don't expect the recent rate of updates for the time being.
a) It might be that a number of lower level Nazi regional governors and other upper/mid level party figures will be tried, although quite possibly not executed - but lengthy prison sentences - in agreement between the allies and the new German government. Both to get some justice for their victims in assorted massacres and imprisonments/executions and to 'show' that Germany has changed and is putting some distance between itself and Nazis ideas.
b) Thanks. Sounds promising.
c-i) One possible thing I was thinking of is what happens to the massed expats that OTL flowed largely to the US but also in some cases to the UK. Here there's going to be a lesser flow and probably few from Germany but they will probably be spread between US, UK and France as to where they end up. c-ii) - One thing I have seen suggested, by Konrad Adenauer after 1918 for the partition of Prussia by breaking it up into smaller states within Germany. the OTL former kingdom of Prussia was overwhelmingly dominant in Germany between the wars and some of what the Nazis achieved was aided by them controlling that. Also it allowed other areas to distance themselves form the Prussian junkers and military and reduce the power of the latter groups. OTL the assorted territorial changes and partition of Germany imposed this by force but I don't know whether there would be sufficient interest in this idea here.
d) On nukes it could go either way but I would expect the 1st nukes would definitely be later than 1945 and probably by a few years. True with no devastating war there's a lot more resources available but the war has been expensive and a nuclear programme, even if somewhat less gold-bricked that the OTL US one is going to be very bloody expensive. Plus without the fear of Germany developing the bomb there's markedly less incentive. Most politicians and of the general population will want a return to a civilian footing, reduced taxes and better standards of living while the longer sighted will probably want to start working on cutting down the war debts that have grown up and industrial/social and economic reforms.
There will definitely be work on nuclear weapons and a Anglo-French project, with possibly some help from some other Commonwealth and European scientists would be a good idea. Apart from anything else politically it would be good at reassuring the French about continued British interest in joint defence and also as a possible way of reassuring them about an answer to the German problem if it reared its head again which will be a continued concern in Paris and also Warsaw at least. However I would expect that its going to go at a much slower rate in terms of funding and general development. Your unlikely to have the same breadth of scientific and technical knowledge and resources that the OTL multi-national allied programme had. It would depend of course on how bad or good international relations are and whether there are other conflicts. [Although any western war with Japan is unlikely to see it as a high priority as there will be no real belief that Japan can develop a nuke.
Which raises the question of course about what the allies do about a possible German nuke? They can't really restrict research and might not want to mention it at all to avoid giving the Germans any ideas but the country does have a very broad and advanced technology base, which will be less handicapped with the Nazis out of the way.
The communist spies will be a serious problem for Britain and possibly also other powers. The only hope I can suggest is that in those circumstances communism and Stalinism is seen in a distinctly less favourable light and possibly someone either already recruited by the 5 or approached later decides no and exposed one of them leading to the entire group being exposed or forced to flee. Another advantage here is that without the Soviets as allies from 1941 on OTL there hasn't been the massive propaganda effort that Britain and America OTL developed to make them sound like good' allies.
Anyway another ramble of ideas before I turn in. Hopefully not posting too much and bloating the TL or wasting too much of your time.
stevep;
Not a waste of time.
c-i) will consider - rebuilding will have to be done. Germans may actually want to go home because of the regime-change and work for a better place. Jews may be another matter.
c-ii) very interesting. Severing the Rhineland which was Catholic and Socialdemocratic/Communist from Protestant Prussia would something. Another severing Silesia and Schleswig-Holstein.
d) expecting Nukes to go on - Bohr may tell the British that Werner Heisenberg wanted to build the bomb. The British or rather French may pick him up for a talk to uncover his workgroup - will have to look it up. I don't see Germany on its own doing it. There was a Communist group in the US and a lot in Europe had positive feelings towards Communism due to Spain - though not those that participated, G. Orwell. However with the Soviet Union on the side of Nazi-Germany things may look different.
Keep rambling, please.
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stevep
Fleet admiral
Posts: 24,836
Likes: 13,225
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Post by stevep on Apr 22, 2024 14:45:37 GMT
a) It might be that a number of lower level Nazi regional governors and other upper/mid level party figures will be tried, although quite possibly not executed - but lengthy prison sentences - in agreement between the allies and the new German government. Both to get some justice for their victims in assorted massacres and imprisonments/executions and to 'show' that Germany has changed and is putting some distance between itself and Nazis ideas.
b) Thanks. Sounds promising.
c-i) One possible thing I was thinking of is what happens to the massed expats that OTL flowed largely to the US but also in some cases to the UK. Here there's going to be a lesser flow and probably few from Germany but they will probably be spread between US, UK and France as to where they end up. c-ii) - One thing I have seen suggested, by Konrad Adenauer after 1918 for the partition of Prussia by breaking it up into smaller states within Germany. the OTL former kingdom of Prussia was overwhelmingly dominant in Germany between the wars and some of what the Nazis achieved was aided by them controlling that. Also it allowed other areas to distance themselves form the Prussian junkers and military and reduce the power of the latter groups. OTL the assorted territorial changes and partition of Germany imposed this by force but I don't know whether there would be sufficient interest in this idea here.
d) On nukes it could go either way but I would expect the 1st nukes would definitely be later than 1945 and probably by a few years. True with no devastating war there's a lot more resources available but the war has been expensive and a nuclear programme, even if somewhat less gold-bricked that the OTL US one is going to be very bloody expensive. Plus without the fear of Germany developing the bomb there's markedly less incentive. Most politicians and of the general population will want a return to a civilian footing, reduced taxes and better standards of living while the longer sighted will probably want to start working on cutting down the war debts that have grown up and industrial/social and economic reforms.
There will definitely be work on nuclear weapons and a Anglo-French project, with possibly some help from some other Commonwealth and European scientists would be a good idea. Apart from anything else politically it would be good at reassuring the French about continued British interest in joint defence and also as a possible way of reassuring them about an answer to the German problem if it reared its head again which will be a continued concern in Paris and also Warsaw at least. However I would expect that its going to go at a much slower rate in terms of funding and general development. Your unlikely to have the same breadth of scientific and technical knowledge and resources that the OTL multi-national allied programme had. It would depend of course on how bad or good international relations are and whether there are other conflicts. [Although any western war with Japan is unlikely to see it as a high priority as there will be no real belief that Japan can develop a nuke.
Which raises the question of course about what the allies do about a possible German nuke? They can't really restrict research and might not want to mention it at all to avoid giving the Germans any ideas but the country does have a very broad and advanced technology base, which will be less handicapped with the Nazis out of the way.
The communist spies will be a serious problem for Britain and possibly also other powers. The only hope I can suggest is that in those circumstances communism and Stalinism is seen in a distinctly less favourable light and possibly someone either already recruited by the 5 or approached later decides no and exposed one of them leading to the entire group being exposed or forced to flee. Another advantage here is that without the Soviets as allies from 1941 on OTL there hasn't been the massive propaganda effort that Britain and America OTL developed to make them sound like good' allies.
Anyway another ramble of ideas before I turn in. Hopefully not posting too much and bloating the TL or wasting too much of your time.
stevep;
Not a waste of time.
c-i) will consider - rebuilding will have to be done. Germans may actually want to go home because of the regime-change and work for a better place. Jews may be another matter.
c-ii) very interesting. Severing the Rhineland which was Catholic and Socialdemocratic/Communist from Protestant Prussia would something. Another severing Silesia and Schleswig-Holstein.
d) expecting Nukes to go on - Bohr may tell the British that Werner Heisenberg wanted to build the bomb. The British or rather French may pick him up for a talk to uncover his workgroup - will have to look it up. I don't see Germany on its own doing it. There was a Communist group in the US and a lot in Europe had positive feelings towards Communism due to Spain - though not those that participated, G. Orwell. However with the Soviet Union on the side of Nazi-Germany things may look different.
Keep rambling, please.
The German part of Schleswig-Holstein may be too small for a separate province but possibly something based around the former kingdom of Hanover and neighbouring areas perhaps.
Nukes will go on but barring another major war or a fear that a clear threat is working on the project I think funding will be markedly lower, at least until a government can be persuaded its a serious operation that will work rather than a theoretical possibility.
How people, possibly especially in Europe see the USSR will be a big issue. Without the wartime alliance it will be different but how different will be the question.
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575
Captain
There is no Purgatory for warcriminals - they go directly to Hell!
Posts: 2,733
Likes: 4,109
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Post by 575 on Apr 25, 2024 8:12:10 GMT
To round out some the issues that have cropped up:
The next step was getting agreement on how to handle the post-war situation. Nazi-ministers Frick of Interior and Funk of Treasury had more or less made themselves unavailable and FM Keitel would conduct negotiations with the WAllied.
Still Britain and France had a potential enemy in the Soviet Union and a much angered ally in Poland.
The Czechs were praising the WAllies to anybody listening.
The Austrians were just Austrians though they did ask for diplomatic aid if confronted by Mussolini – the French were all eager to provide such and asked of a Chasseurs Alpes base in Tyrol. The Austrians were quite overwhelmed by the swift response. The British just let the French control that.
The French had informed Mussolini that it didn't accept the Italian bossing its Yugoslav and Greek neighbours and expected a retreat of the majority of Armed Forces in Albania of course leaving units suitable for controlling the area.
Mussolini was quite sullen but didn't like to test the French temper when French military activity was initiated in Tyrol.
Britain wanted a closer kind of Defensive Treaty to block Stalin from getting ideas on the West – such would of course include Britain, France, Belgium, the Scandinavians, the Baltics, Poland, Czechoslvakia, Romania, Greece, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, Germany and Austria. The Netherlands would be invited to participate as would the Turks.
France was reluctant to enter treaty with the lesser nations and particularly Germany but Britain was most enthusiastic.
It offered to fit out the Graf Zeppelin at a British wharf to ease the burden on the French building of their own Aircraft Carriers and Battleships which were still ongoing and occupying the available slipways and other resources.
Thus France would end up with 3 modern Carriers instead of 2. Some modifications had to be done but the final installations of guns would be carried out in France.
France caved in and agreed to more formal military alliance treaties.
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575
Captain
There is no Purgatory for warcriminals - they go directly to Hell!
Posts: 2,733
Likes: 4,109
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Post by 575 on Apr 25, 2024 8:43:06 GMT
Then the political organization of Germany – though both Britain and France disliked the Socialdemocratic Parties they agreed that in the event of Germany this would probably be for the best to be in power – at least in an interim Government untill elections would be held. Churchill remembered the words of Danish Socialdemocratic PM when visiting Britain during 1937 when he seemed to be searching for Allies – the Communist's being the main enemy of the Socialdemocratic Party because of both sharing the possible constituency – the Workers! Hence also the Danish Government not wanting volunteers for the International Brigades going to Spain which had then mainly been Communist's and idealist's of various political observations. Churchill used this as a lever of his idea with the French. Thus the WAllies approached FM Keitel with the plan of having the Socialdemocratic Party leader Kurt Schumacher, who had been interned in a KZ-camp from which during the chaos Schumacher had been liberated, on the address by the Socialdemocratic Party group in exile in Paris Sopade be made interinm Chancellor untill elections could be held. FM Keitel still wanting to paint himself in the best of light agreed to the plan. A number of leaders of the Socialdemocratic Party had left Germany and wanted to go home. Among these the group in Paris of Stampfer, Wels, Ollenhauger and Hertz among others to support Kurt Schumacher. Besides this as already stipulated the Germans was left to change their constitution themselves – Churchill expected the Socialdemocrats to do just this to prevent another Nazi/Fascist/Ultraconservative Regime. Better to let the Germans Police themselves than the British or French do so. Anybody knowledgeable on German Police would surely agree. The Socialdemocrats of Germany had as the Communist's and Jews been in Konzentration Camps and owned the Nazi-regime nothing. And certainly had ideas about barring such the way to office in the future. It would be in good hands. The Socialdemocrat and Christian Democratic politicians had vitnessed the opening of concentration camps. Some had been forced by Allied troops others had been made so because the SS-Guards had fled and left the inmates to themselves during the infighting prior to surrender. It was obvious to the Allied troops that it was an inter-German situation that should be dealt with on a Judicial base by German Juror system. In case of foreign nationals those countries would address the German Juror Administration to bring the responsible to trail/extradiction. The French and Belgians were quite appalled by the possibility of their nationals having been so interned and did some combing of KZ-camps and Prison facilities along which the Poles, Czechs and Austrians. The Belgians had demanded handing over of Hermann Göring, Head of Luftwaffe for trail due to the bombing of Antwerp. The man was found dead thus robbing the Belgians of pinpointing responsibility at the top of Nazi-Regime. The Belgians then trimmed Luftwaffe ranks for the commanders that might have been involved getting hold of the Inspector-General of Luftwaffe Colonelgeneral Erhard Milch, Cheif of Staff Colonelgeneral Hans Jeschonnek, Commander Airfleet 2 General Hellmut Felmy to place responsibility for the devastating attack. The Poles had asked for Governor General Hans Frank to be extradicted for trail of his regime mismanagement and genocide against Poles and Jews in Nazi-occupied Poland. Frank was found and handed over to the Poles.
Konstantin v. Neurath Reich Protector of Bohemia-Moravia had stayed in Prague to avoid the infighting prior to the German capitulation. He gave himself up to the advancing Czech Army and was tried for his actions as Reich Protector.
The former Governor of Ostmark – Austria during Nazi-rule Arthur Seyss-Inquart had disappeared presumed killed during the infighting in Germany prior to the capitulation. |
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Post by Max Sinister on Apr 27, 2024 16:59:33 GMT
Why do Britain and France dislike the Social Democrats?
But glad to see Schumacher as chancellor. He'd have deserved that.
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575
Captain
There is no Purgatory for warcriminals - they go directly to Hell!
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Post by 575 on Apr 27, 2024 17:40:38 GMT
Why do Britain and France dislike the Social Democrats? But glad to see Schumacher as chancellor. He'd have deserved that. Well Churchill's a conservative and Daladier a Socialist-Radical as far as I understand somewhat more center than left so some kind of animosity towards the in their perception more left Socialdemocrat's. Hence why I wrote on Staunings visit to Britain during 1937 for them to understand the Socialdemocrats.
Yes Schumacher deserve it.
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Post by Max Sinister on Apr 27, 2024 18:19:19 GMT
Why do Britain and France dislike the Social Democrats? But glad to see Schumacher as chancellor. He'd have deserved that. Well Churchill's a conservative and Daladier a Socialist-Radical as far as I understand somewhat more center than left
Churchill OK, Daladier should be understanding. The SPD is left, but not radical. (Neither are the French Radical Socialists... it's complicated.)
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Although with the way the war's gone the prestige of the democracies will have been boosted while many will see Stalin as a dangerous thug and part time ally of Hitler, which is likely to discredit communism in some eyes at least.