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Post by simon darkshade on Mar 23, 2023 11:43:02 GMT
June 14 1940
Paris had fallen.
The City of Light was now under the Nazi jackboot and the armies of France collapsed inexorably to the south, streaming away towards defeat and whatever was then to come.
Yet, as the triumphant soldiers of the Wehrmacht goosestepped through the Arc de Triomphe, a curious occurrence happened.
In the West, there was a bright flash out on the horizon and a brief rumble like very distant thunder.
Strange.
It was probably nothing, though, thought Leutnant Verausdeutung. Probably just nothing.
But he was wrong.
………………
“What do you mean a new island? Have you lost your mind, Pluskat?”
…………
“Oberst Sündenbock, these reports have been very confused. What can you give me?” General der Flieger Hugo Sperrle adjusted his monocle and fixed an inquisitive stare on the colonel from Luftwaffe intelligence.
”More confusion, Herr General, or rather nothing that makes sense. Firstly, our fighter patrols over the Calais area report English planes of unknown types and frankly incredible speeds of 1000 kilometres an hour, as well as what seem to be Spitfires, also faster than previous experience. Secondly, our own airfields in Northern France have be overflown by other unknown twin engine aircraft, some at low level and unprecedented speeds and others…at 14000 metres. As said, frankly incredible.”
”So, the English have some aeroplanes we do not know about. No Great matter.”
”On their own, perhaps, Herr General. The third and fourth matters are a bit more disturbing.”
”In what way?”
”After the Calais incidents, a schwarm of our Ju-88s was assigned to conduct a reconnaissance flight. One made it back, reporting having encountered up to a hundred English planes, none of which seemed to have propellers or ordinary engines. The RAF let them go; there was no pursuit.”
”And what of this fourth matter?”
”An unconfirmed piece from the Kriegsmarine, Herr General. One of their U-Boats sighted a Tommy battleship coming down from the north near Scarborough.”
”Why didn’t they sink it?”
”Going too fast, apparently. And…”
”And what?”
”It was the size of the Queen Mary.
……………….
”What do you mean, giant zeppelins? Have you been drinking, Leutnant?”
……………….
“This is the second pilot I’ve had to relieve today, Herr Oberst. Yes, complete hysteria, the both of them. He was shouting about dragons of all things as they drove him away. Mad, I tell you!”
………………….
“General Brooke? Telephone call for you from London. In Hindustani.”
”Again? General Dill?”
”Field Marshal Ironside, it would seem.”
Strange.
”Very well.”
…………….
”Marshal Weygand.”
”General. Your message was quite insistent, but I am afraid there is nothing further that we can discuss so soon; much needs to be done to ensure that an armistice can be secured.”
”I can quite understand, Marshal. I have just spoken with…my superiors…in London. The circumstances have changed. Somewhat.”
”I think you had better explain.”
And so he did.
………………
”What forces do we have available, Field Marshal?”
”Insofar as the Army is concerned, aside those units outside the British Isles which have no yet made contact, we have 43 British infantry, 17 armoured and 4 airborne divisions; 10 Canadian infantry, 4 armoured and 1 airborne; the 3 Australian infantry and 2 armoured and the 2 New Zealand infantry; 3 South African, 1 Rhodesian and 4 Indian divisions. Out of all the exiles, we only have the two Polish corps.”
”None of the French or Americans.”
”We can state with certainty now that none of their men have come with us, nor their own equipment. Our stocks of American weapons are still present, and, with the build up for Overlord next year, we have the capacity to equip further forces as we can raise them.”
“It will depend on France. In any event, we’ll get General Brooke and his men back; I’m sure he’ll be very interested to meet you.”
“Very droll, Prime Minister.”
“Now, Admiral Pound, can you confirm the better news regarding the Navy?”
”Yes, Prime Minister. All the major overseas fleets have now made contact - Somerville from the Med, Fraser and the Atlantic Fleet, Mountbatten and the East Indies Fleet and Cunningham with the Grand Fleet. They are all as confused as we are as to what is going on. We have also established communications with the other Navy - one of their carriers was stopped as it was coming in towards Scapa. They are…different…”
”What isn’t, Admiral?”
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Post by simon darkshade on Mar 23, 2023 12:45:08 GMT
RN Earth ships, 14 June 1940:
Atlantic
Hermes CV and Delhi CL en route Canaries to Dakar
Argus CV, Shropshire CA, Cumberland CA, Dorsetshire CA escorting convoy
Resolution BB Gibraltar
Revenge BB Halifax
Keppel DD, Velox DD, Vidette DD, Vortigern DD, Watchman DD, Active DD, Douglas DD, Wishart DD, Wrestler DD
Cornwall CA, Hawkins CA
Caradoc CL, Despatch CL, Diomede CL, Dunedin CL at Bermuda
Home Waters
Ark Royal CV, Kelvin DD, Escort DD, Campbell DD arriving Scapa Flow
Rodney BB, Renown BC, Tartar DD, Fearless DD, Ashanti DD, Bedouin DD, Mashona DD, Maori DD en route to Scapa Flow from Norway
Nelson BB 'Greenock'
Valiant BB, Repulse BC, Tartar DD, Maori DD, Diana DD, Forester DD Scapa
Electra DD, Zulu DD, Escapade DD retiring to Scapa Flow
Antelope DD, Inglefield DD en route to Scapa Flow
Express DD, Intrepid DD, Teviotbank ML, Plover ML on minelaying operation
Diana DD, Acheron DD on ASW sweep
Cardiff CL arriving Sheerness
Highlander DD en route Clyde to Plymouth
Stork SL en route to Rosyth
Lowestoft SL, Weston SL en route to Tyne from Rosyth
Vanoc DD, Wolverine DD, Whirlwind DD escorting convoy to Brest
Beagle DD, Havlock DD, Wren DD escorting convoy to Brest
Valorous DD escorting convoy Tyne to Southend
Volunteer DD escorting convoy
Hood BC, Restigouche DD, St Laurent DD, Skeena DD en route Gib
Arethusa en route Gib to Verdon
Sturdy DD, Scarborough SL escorting convoy Gib to Liverpool
Mediterranean Fleet
Warspite BB, Malaya BB, Ramillies BB, Royal Sovereign BB, Eagle CV, Liverpool CL, Gloucester CL, Neptune CL, Caledon CL, Capetown CL, Calypso CL, Mohawk DD, Hasty DD, Ilex DD, Janus DD, Juno DD, Nubian DD, Diamond DD, Havock DD, Hyperion DD, Hero DD, Hereward DD, Hostile DD, Imperial DD
Hobart CL, Leander CL, Carlisle CLAA at Aden
Kandahar DD, Khartoum DD, Kimberley DD, Kingston DD in Red Sea
Sydney CL, Orion CL sweeping off Benghazi
Voyager DD, Stuart DD, Vampire DD, Waterhen DD, Decoy DD, Dainty DD ASW off Alexandria
Vendetta DD, Otus SS, Olympus SS in Malta
Rorqual SS, Orpheus SS, Oswald SS, Grampus SS, Parthian SS, Pandora SS, Proteus SS
East Indies
Kent CA, Ceres CL, Colombo CL
Danae CL en route Cocos
Dauntless CL, Scout DD, Thanet DD, Thracian DD, Perseus SS, Regent SS, Regulus SS Hong Kong
Durban CL Penang
Stronghold DD, Tenedos DD, Rover SS, Rainbow SS Singapore
Australia CA Simonstown
Canberra CA, Adelaide CL, Perth CL Australia
Achilles CL New Zealand
RN Dark Earth ships 14 June 1940 (from 1/9/43)
Home Fleet
5 CV: Leviathan, Remarkable, Spectacular, HMCS Arcadia, HMCS Aurora
4 CVL: Venerable CVL, Brilliant CVL, Edgar CVL, Pioneer CVL
17 BB: Centurion, Warrior, Royal Sovereign, Vengeance, Nelson, Rodney, Hawke, Blake, Nile, Devastation, HMCS Victoria, HMCS America , HMNS Newfoundland, HMCS Canada, HMCS Dominion, HMCS Wolfe, HMCS Cabot,
2 BC: King Richard I, King Henry V
10 CA
26 CL
94 DD
62 DE
108 FF (72 RN)
70 CR
35 SL (24 RN, 9 RCN, 2 RNN)
Atlantic Fleet
1 CV: Courageous
2 BC: Royal Arthur BC, King Alfred BC
24 CVE
3 CA
17 CL
102 DD
80 DE
175 FF (110 RN)
200 CR
56 SL (36 RN, 12 RCN, 8 RSAN)
Mediterranean Fleet
1 CV: Glorious
4 CVL Colossus, Sans Pareil, Hawkins, Raleigh
5 BB: Anson, Howe, HMSAS South Africa, HMSAS Good Hope, HMIS India
7 CA
16 CL
56 DD
40 FF (24 RN)
39 CR
32 SL (20 RN, 4 RCN, 4 RSAN, 4 RIN)
Grand Fleet
17 CV: Ark Royal, Eagle, Victorious, Invincible, Hermes, Indefatigable, Albion, Bulwark, Unicorn, Pegasus, Implacable, Formidable, Indomitable, Illustrious, Centaur, Argus, Ocean
8 CVL Theseus , Hercules, Achilles, Ethalion, Perseus, Hector, Mars, Agamemnon
27 BB: King George V, Prince of Wales, Duke of York, Princess Royal, Emperor of India, Monarch, Lion, Temeraire, Conqueror, Thunderer, Iron Duke, Black Prince, Vanguard, Dragon, Majestic, Triumph, Agincourt, Trafalgar, Superb, Magnificent, Hood, St. George, St. Andrew, St. Patrick, HMAS Australia, HMNZS New Zealand, HMIS Hindustan
7 BC Renown, Repulse, Retribution, Orion, Neptune, Jupiter, Ajax
10 OBB: Warspite , Valiant , Queen Elizabeth, Barham, Queen Victoria, Royal Oak, Revenge, Ramillies, Reprisal, Resolution
35 CVE
32 CA
56 CL
210 DD
46 DE
125 FF (90 RN)
42 CR
Pacific Fleet
2 CV HMAS Adelaide, HMNAS Drake
2 BB: HMAS Commonwealth, HMNAS New Avalon
8 CA
10 CL
42 DD (12 RN)
56 FF (16 RN)
19 SL (9 RN)
Building
5 CV: Malta, Gibraltar, Africa, India, Singapore
5 CVL: Justinian, Atlas, Endymion, Orpheus, Phoenix, Engadine
8 CA
4 CVE
124 DD
58 DE
60 FF
52 SS
Royal Navy
36 Battleships
11 Battlecruisers
22 Aircraft Carriers
16 Light Aircraft Carriers
52 Escort Carriers
43 Heavy Cruisers
102 Light Cruisers
364 Destroyers
178 R/S/V/W Old Destroyers
156 Destroyer Escorts/Hunts
312 Frigates
204 Corvettes
89 Sloops
Commonwealth
4 Aircraft Carriers
7 Escort Carriers
15 Battleships
10 Heavy Cruisers
25 Light Cruisers
Destroyers
32 Destroyer Escorts
Frigates
Corvettes
Sloops
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stevep
Fleet admiral
Posts: 21,081 
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Post by stevep on Mar 23, 2023 16:34:03 GMT
So basically as well as OTL British, Commonwealth and Imperial forces from outside the UK there is the DE UK - which IIRC was significantly bigger and at least its naval forces from outside the UK from DE 1943. This is going to be overwhelming for the Nazis. Doubly so if DE supernatural elements are present as well. What they would think of actual mages or dragons I don't know. Or the fact that this UK is space competent albeit I assume resources and bases from off Earth haven't been brought along.
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Post by simon darkshade on Mar 23, 2023 23:14:20 GMT
So basically as well as OTL British, Commonwealth and Imperial forces from outside the UK there is the DE UK - which IIRC was significantly bigger and at least its naval forces from outside the UK from DE 1943.
This is going to be overwhelming for the Nazis.
Doubly so if DE supernatural elements are present as well.
What they would think of actual mages or dragons I don't know.
Or the fact that this UK is space competent albeit I assume resources and bases from off Earth haven't been brought along.
1.) Yes, quite correct. Larger in population, economy, industry and military, with the RN able to come home 2.) Absolutely overwhelming 3.) They are present 4.) I plan a couple of sequences to that effect ”Mein Fuhrer…Steiner…Steiner was eaten by a dragon. The offensive failed.”  5.) Space based assets and possessions were left behind, which adds to the confusion |
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Post by simon darkshade on Mar 24, 2023 0:25:09 GMT
Drilling down into some stats, DE Britain has a GDP of $1.214 trillion and a population of 116 million, compared to the U.S. in @ 1940 of 132,122,446 and $929.737 billion. This will cause some degree of momentary upset to the apple cart.
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Post by simon darkshade on Mar 24, 2023 7:17:24 GMT
In terms of what the RAF has in Britain, Ireland and Lyonesse as of September 1943:
Bomber Command (4081)
1256 Avro Lancasters (56 Squadrons) (1)
1025 Vickers Wellingtons (50 Squadrons) (2)
939 Handley Page Halifaxes (42 Squadrons)
524 de Havilland Mosquitoes (18 Squadrons)
255 Vickers Windsor (3)
82 English Electric Canberras (4 Squadrons)
Fighter Command (3883)
1524 Supermarine Spitfire Mk. V-XV (80 Squadrons)
845 Hawker Tempests (36 Squadrons)
316 Bristol Beaufighter Mk. I NF (20 Squadrons)
287 Gloster Meteors (12 Squadrons)
264 Gloster Reapers (11 Squadrons)
207 Supermarine Spitfire PR (15 Squadrons)
184 de Havilland Vampires (9 Squadrons)
256 de Havilland Mosquito NF (8 Squadrons)
1st Tactical Air Force (1996)
432 Hawker Typhoons (18 Squadrons)
404 Hawker Hurricanes (28 Squadrons)
320 Westland Whirlwind (20 Squadrons) (4)
205 Hawker Hotspurs (14 Squadrons) (5)
200 Armstrong-Whitworth Winchester (10 Squadrons) (6)
219 Bristol Buckinghams (10 Squadrons) (7)
120 North American Mustangs (8 Squadrons)
96 Lockheed Lightning PR (6 Squadrons)
2nd Tactical Air Force (1893)
498 Hawker Typhoons (24 Squadrons)
425 Supermarine Spitfires (28 Squadrons)
236 Bristol Buckinghams
185 Armstrong-Whitworth Winchester (9 Squadrons)
158 Hawker Hotspurs (12 Squadrons)
156 de Havilland Mosquitoes (10 Squadrons)
139 North American Mustangs (10 Squadrons)
96 Lockheed Lightning PR (6 Squadrons)
Transport Command (1087)
962 Vickers Victoria (46 Squadrons) (8)
125 Westland Lysanders (8 Squadrons)
Training Command (5603)
1442 de Havilland Tiger Moth
1276 North American Harvard
1015 Airspeed Oxford
825 Miles Master
459 Fairey Cambridge
362 Avro Anson
224 Percival Proctor
RCAF in Britain (804)
179 Supermarine Spitfires
154 Vickers Wellingtons
129 Avro Lancasters
102 Handley Page Halifaxes
87 Hawker Hurricanes
84 Armstrong-Whitworth Winchester
69 de Havilland Mosquitoes
RAAF in Britain (284)
120 Supermarine Spitfires
60 Avro Lancasters
56 de Havilland Mosquitoes
48 Bristol Beaufighters
RNZAF in Britain (258)
96 Supermarine Spitfires
54 Bristol Beaufighters
48 de Havilland Mosquitoes
36 Vickers Wellingtons
24 Avro Lancasters
RNAS (1786)
356 Short Stirlings
329 Short Sunderlands
229 Bristol Beaufighters
220 Westland Dragonflys
214 Bristol Beauforts
202 Avro Ansons
124 Shorts Shetland (9)
112 de Havilland Mosquitoes
1: A mix between the @ Lincoln and the B-29, with a higher top speed of 350mph, a ceiling of 40000ft, a combat range of ~3200 miles and a bombload of 24,000lb
2: The Wellington is a 4 Merlin heavy bomber broadly analogous to the B-17 in payload, ceiling and speed
3: Victory Bomber
4: The Westland Whirlwind here is a twin Centaurus attack bomber
5: The Hotspur is a Merlin engined dive bomber that is in the process of being replaced by the Bristol Battleaxe attack fighter (souped up Brigand) which entered production in June 1943, but teething problems have kept it out of frontline service
6: The AW Winchester is a twin engined 2000hp+ Merlin bomber, based broadly on the Vickers Warwick
7: The @ Buckingham, employed as a light bomber
8: A twin Merlin transport similar to the C-47
9: A six engine VLR flying boat
British Army Home Forces
Training
21st Armoured Division
22nd Armoured Division
23rd Armoured Division
24th Armoured Division
81st Infantry Division
82nd Infantry Division
83rd Infantry Division
84th Infantry Division
85th Infantry Division
86th Infantry Division
GHQ Reserve
68th Infantry Division
77th Infantry Division
79th Infantry Division
80th Infantry Division
Guards Infantry Division
Commando Division
I Anzac Corps
1st Australian Armoured Division
6th Australian Division
7th Australian Division
1st New Zealand Division
II Anzac Corps
2nd Australian Armoured Division
8th Australian Division
9th Australian Division
2nd New Zealand Division
I Airborne Corps
1st Airborne Division
2nd Airborne Division
Canadian Airborne Division
II Airborne Corps
4th Airborne Division
6th Airborne Division
South African and Rhodesian Army Corps
1st South African Division
2nd Rhodesian Infantry Division
3rd South African Armoured Division
4th South African Infantry Division
I Indian Corps
Indian Guards Infantry Division
1st Indian Infantry Division
2nd Indian Infantry Division
3rd Indian Infantry Division
I Polish Corps
Polish 1st Armoured Division
Polish 2nd Grenadiers Division
Polish 3rd Infantry Fusiliers Division
II Polish Corps
Polish 4th Infantry Division
Polish 5th Infantry Division
Polish 6th Highland Division
British First Army
I Corps
1st Infantry Division
3rd Armoured Division
35th Infantry Division
II Corps
1st Armoured Division
3rd Infantry Division
4th Infantry Division
III Corps
2nd Armoured Division
5th Infantry Division
27th Infantry Division
IV Corps
4th Armoured Division
8th Infantry Division
32nd Infantry Division
British Second Army
V Corps
2nd Infantry Division
19th Armoured Division
46th (North Midland) Infantry Division
VI Corps
12th Infantry Division
18th Armoured Division
41st (Cornwall) Infantry Division
VII Corps
20th Armoured Division
44th (Home Counties) Infantry Division
65th Infantry Division
VIII Corps
17th Armoured Division
22nd Infantry Division
66th Infantry Division
British Third Army
IX Corps
6th Infantry Division
10th Armoured Division
66th Infantry Division
XXIII Corps
9th Armoured Division
26th Infantry Division
34th Infantry Division
XI Corps
12th Armoured Division
28th Infantry Division
59th (Staffordshire) Infantry Division
XII Corps
14th Infantry Division
15th Armoured Division
56th (2nd London) Infantry Division
British Fourth Army
XXXV Corps
5th Armoured Division
51st (Highland) Division
54th (East Anglian) Infantry Division
XIX Corps
7th Infantry Division
55th (West Lancashire) Infantry Division
67th Infantry Division
XXIV Corps
38th Infantry Division
45th (2nd Wessex) Infantry Division
64th Infantry Division
XXVI Corps
10th Infantry Division
48th (South Midland) Infantry Division
71st Infantry Division
Fifth Canadian Army
I Canadian Corps
1st Canadian Infantry Division
2nd Canadian Infantry Division
3rd Canadian Infantry Division
4th Canadian Armoured Division
II Canadian Corps
Canadian Guards Division
Newfoundland Division
5th Canadian Armoured Division
6th Canadian Infantry Division
III Canadian Corps
7th Canadian Infantry Division
8th Canadian Infantry Division
9th Canadian Armoured Division
13th Canadian Infantry Division
IV Canadian Corps
10th Canadian Armoured Division
11th Canadian Infantry Division
12th Canadian Infantry Division
15th Canadian Infantry Division
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lordroel
Administrator
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Post by lordroel on Mar 24, 2023 7:56:44 GMT
June 14 1940 Paris had fallen. The City of Light was now under the Nazi jackboot and the armies of France collapsed inexorably to the south, streaming away towards defeat and whatever was then to come. Yet, as the triumphant soldiers of the Wehrmacht goosestepped through the Arc de Triomphe, a curious occurrence happened. In the West, there was a bright flash out on the horizon and a brief rumble like very distant thunder. Strange.It was probably nothing, though, thought Leutnant Verausdeutung. Probably just nothing. But he was wrong. ……………… “What do you mean a new island? Have you lost your mind, Pluskat?” ………… “Oberst Sündenbock, these reports have been very confused. What can you give me?” General der Flieger Hugo Sperrle adjusted his monocle and fixed an inquisitive stare on the colonel from Luftwaffe intelligence. ”More confusion, Herr General, or rather nothing that makes sense. Firstly, our fighter patrols over the Calais area report English planes of unknown types and frankly incredible speeds of 1000 kilometres an hour, as well as what seem to be Spitfires, also faster than previous experience. Secondly, our own airfields in Northern France have be overflown by other unknown twin engine aircraft, some at low level and unprecedented speeds and others…at 14000 metres. As said, frankly incredible.” ”So, the English have some aeroplanes we do not know about. No Great matter.” ”On their own, perhaps, Herr General. The third and fourth matters are a bit more disturbing.” ”In what way?” ”After the Calais incidents, a schwarm of our Ju-88s was assigned to conduct a reconnaissance flight. One made it back, reporting having encountered up to a hundred English planes, none of which seemed to have propellers or ordinary engines. The RAF let them go; there was no pursuit.” ”And what of this fourth matter?” ”An unconfirmed piece from the Kriegsmarine, Herr General. One of their U-Boats sighted a Tommy battleship coming down from the north near Scarborough.” ”Why didn’t they sink it?” ”Going too fast, apparently. And…” ”And what?” ”It was the size of the Queen Mary. ………………. ”What do you mean, giant zeppelins? Have you been drinking, Leutnant?” ………………. “This is the second pilot I’ve had to relieve today, Herr Oberst. Yes, complete hysteria, the both of them. He was shouting about dragons of all things as they drove him away. Mad, I tell you!” …………………. “General Brooke? Telephone call for you from London. In Hindustani.” ”Again? General Dill?” ”Field Marshal Ironside, it would seem.” Strange.”Very well.” ……………. ”Marshal Weygand.” ”General. Your message was quite insistent, but I am afraid there is nothing further that we can discuss so soon; much needs to be done to ensure that an armistice can be secured.” ”I can quite understand, Marshal. I have just spoken with…my superiors…in London. The circumstances have changed. Somewhat.” ”I think you had better explain.” And so he did. ……………… ”What forces do we have available, Field Marshal?” ”Insofar as the Army is concerned, aside those units outside the British Isles which have no yet made contact, we have 52 British infantry, 12 armoured and 4 airborne divisions; 10 Canadian infantry, 4 armoured and 1 airborne; the 3 Australian infantry and 2 armoured and the 2 New Zealand infantry; 3 South African, 1 Rhodesian and 4 Indian divisions. Out of all the exiles, we only have the two Polish corps.” ”None of the French or Americans.” ”We can state with certainty now that none of their men have come with us, nor their own equipment. Our stocks of American weapons are still present, and, with the build up for Overlord next year, we have the capacity to equip further forces as we can raise them.” “It will depend on France. In any event, we’ll get General Brooke and his men back; I’m sure he’ll be very interested to meet you.” “Very droll, Prime Minister.” “Now, Admiral Pound, can you confirm the better news regarding the Navy?” ”Yes, Prime Minister. All the major overseas fleets have now made contact - Somerville from the Med, Fraser and the Atlantic Fleet, Mountbatten and the East Indies Fleet and Cunningham with the Grand Fleet. They are all as confused as we are as to what is going on. We have also established communications with the other Navy - one of their carriers was stopped as it was coming in towards Scapa. They are…different…” ”What isn’t, Admiral?” Yep the Germans are screwed. |
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stevep
Fleet admiral
Posts: 21,081
Likes: 10,184
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Post by stevep on Mar 24, 2023 12:28:46 GMT
Well the Canadian, Australian and New Zealand forces in the UK could probably win the BoB against the OTL Luftwaffe. Especially given their technology edge and probably ground support. Add in the actual RAF and any dragon's looking to join in the hunt - seeing Luftwaffe bombers as canned food and if Hitler and Goring are daft enough to try it. Mind you with the ground forces in the UK if they can persuade the French to fight on and get some of them across the channel the Battle of France is likely to take a very different swing.
Its going to complicate matters having supernatural elements in the scenario. For instance whether they can operate away from the UK as its basically throwing many of the laws of physics out of the window.
Forgot that as well as Avalon this UK has all of Ireland. IIRC lengths are 1.5 times our Earth so the land area is 2.25 times greater.
I think Mussolini is going to be very concerned about his recent decision to declare was on the 'defeated' allies! Wondering what Japan and Stalin will be thinking when they hear what happens. Especially since this DE UK is from 1943 so they can tell our world - although may not be believed - about events such as Operation Barbarossa and Pearl Harbour.
One other factor is what happens to the DE UK's nuclear programme? Assuming anything based in the UK will be brought alone but anything elsewhere - such as Canada, Australia etc is left behind.
Going to be bad for those OTL Brits abroad - or on OTL ships, presumably both civil and naval - who have lost their families and homes and now have a different culture in their 'home' although they would have the option of settling elsewhere such as in the dominions. Also going to be issues with the different nature of the empire.
Also going to be some interesting issues since DE UK is used to many different countries, with virtually universal monarchies and religious groups being a lot more powerful than OTL.
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Post by simon darkshade on Mar 24, 2023 12:49:27 GMT
That is fairly straightforward, but the interesting part is how to get there.
Issues/Points of Discussion:
- The Home Fleet will be sent out to Norway to clear up any Germany surface forces and pave the way for a renewed landing
- Actually persuading the French not to throw in the towel on the basis of what had been the previous correlation of forces is going to be extremely difficult
- Landing a force in France isn't the difficult part, but getting ports to unload all the armour, mechanised vehicles, supplies and fuel of a very powerful army is a different matter
- One of the first goals will be to fix advancing German forces in France and their supply lines and to send out the medium bombers and Wellingtons for strikes, escorted by the Reaper and Mosquito fighters, whilst the light bombers and Mosquito bombers hit up every German logistical node that can be targeted in the Low Countries
- Bomber Command's heavies, meanwhile, will be sent out at the Ruhr (In order: Cologne, Essen, Duisberg, Dortmund, Dusseldorf, Bochum and Wuppertal) whilst No. 617 Squadron goes at the Dams. Hamburg is another possible target
- Italy is going to be hit in Genoa, Turin, Milan and Bologna whilst the Atlantic and Mediterranean Fleets move to unite for potential operations against the Regia Marina
- The major combat elements of the Grand Fleet are roughly 14 days away from Suez at 15 knots; the old battleships, escort destroyers, frigates and corvettes are going to largely be left at Singapore for the time being, along with an amphibious fleet carrying 4 Royal Marine divisions
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stevep
Fleet admiral
Posts: 21,081
Likes: 10,184
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Post by stevep on Mar 24, 2023 13:01:02 GMT
That is fairly straightforward, but the interesting part is how to get there. Issues/Points of Discussion: - The Home Fleet will be sent out to Norway to clear up any Germany surface forces and pave the way for a renewed landing - Actually persuading the French not to throw in the towel on the basis of what had been the previous correlation of forces is going to be extremely difficult - Landing a force in France isn't the difficult part, but getting ports to unload all the armour, mechanised vehicles, supplies and fuel of a very powerful army is a different matter - One of the first goals will be to fix advancing German forces in France and their supply lines and to send out the medium bombers and Wellingtons for strikes, escorted by the Reaper and Mosquito fighters, whilst the light bombers and Mosquito bombers hit up every German logistical node that can be targeted in the Low Countries - Bomber Command's heavies, meanwhile, will be sent out at the Ruhr (In order: Cologne, Essen, Duisberg, Dortmund, Dusseldorf, Bochum and Wuppertal) whilst No. 617 Squadron goes at the Dams. Hamburg is another possible target - Italy is going to be hit in Genoa, Turin, Milan and Bologna whilst the Atlantic and Mediterranean Fleets move to unite for potential operations against the Regia Marina - The major combat elements of the Grand Fleet are roughly 14 days away from Suez at 15 knots; the old battleships, escort destroyers, frigates and corvettes are going to largely be left at Singapore for the time being, along with an amphibious fleet carrying 4 Royal Marine divisions
Ah that would make it a longer fight that I was thinking if France is still likely to submit. Although possibly once they see the strength of this new Britain it might have an affect on say the colonies?
Its not going to be good for the German urban population with those bomber forces hitting them, especially with the Luftwaffe having no real experience of air defence and a lot of their current forces being heavily mauled in France. However given that OTL hasn't had the same level of experience of Axis terror bombing it could cause a fair amount of criticism among neutrals and allies.
Didn't realise that the Grand Fleet was out east in Singapore. That will be overwhelming once it arrives.
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Post by simon darkshade on Mar 24, 2023 13:22:51 GMT
Well the Canadian, Australian and New Zealand forces in the UK could probably win the BoB against the OTL Luftwaffe.
Especially given their technology edge and probably ground support.
Add in the actual RAF and any dragon's looking to join in the hunt - seeing Luftwaffe bombers as canned food and if Hitler and Goring are daft enough to try it.
Mind you with the ground forces in the UK if they can persuade the French to fight on and get some of them across the channel the Battle of France is likely to take a very different swing. Its going to complicate matters having supernatural elements in the scenario. For instance whether they can operate away from the UK as its basically throwing many of the laws of physics out of the window. Forgot that as well as Avalon this UK has all of Ireland. IIRC lengths are 1.5 times our Earth so the land area is 2.25 times greater. I think Mussolini is going to be very concerned about his recent decision to declare was on the 'defeated' allies! Wondering what Japan and Stalin will be thinking when they hear what happens. Especially since this DE UK is from 1943 so they can tell our world - although may not be believed - about events such as Operation Barbarossa and Pearl Harbour. One other factor is what happens to the DE UK's nuclear programme? Assuming anything based in the UK will be brought alone but anything elsewhere - such as Canada, Australia etc is left behind. Going to be bad for those OTL Brits abroad - or on OTL ships, presumably both civil and naval - who have lost their families and homes and now have a different culture in their 'home' although they would have the option of settling elsewhere such as in the dominions. Also going to be issues with the different nature of the empire. Also going to be some interesting issues since DE UK is used to many different countries, with virtually universal monarchies and religious groups being a lot more powerful than OTL.
1.) Quite nearly, particularly given the tech advantages of RDF and AAA that you correctly identify. 2.) A turkey shoot doesn’t even qualify for this scenario, as there is one other HUGE factor at play - British monthly aircraft production is at the heightened level of late 1943, as well as the scaled advantages of DE 3.) As said, that is the rub and what I’m mulling over at the moment. The scenario is not something that would easily be believed and the time between 14/6 and the armistice was very slim. It puts a spanner in the works and I think one is needed here 4.) The laws of physics have been thrown out the window, set on fire and stomped on. Magical stuff, for want of a better word at this time of night, works 100% in or over Britain, but starts to fade a bit as one goes further away, but not in a clear fashion. Something fundamental has changed with the ISOT 5.) It is a lot more territory, which is needed for elementary things such as fitting all the troops and air bases and providing the large part of the food needed for 116 million civvies and ~4.5 million soldiers and airmen 6.) Give it a few days to a week for the realisation to percolate to Rome, Tokyo and Moscow, by which time reckoning will come to Italy. Also keep in mind that a battle fleet larger than the IJN has been left behind at Singapore; and that the Tsar and his family are in Britain 7.) Tube Alloys has seen a good 50% of its practical facilities disappear, along with the close cooperation with the Yanks. It can be reconstituted, but not anytime soon; the Empire will likely be the first to get a bomb, but it will be post (this) war. 8.) Excellent point. Those encountering problems with going back to Britain will certainly be supported and encouraged to settle in Canada or Australia 9.) Once again, bullseye. There will be quite a bit of shock at France, Spain and Portugal and quite probably some planning done to restore Wilhelm II/III, the Habsburgs and more, almost as a matter of course. This discussion and other attitudes will come through in the next couple of parts, which include an Imperial War Cabinet meeting where Field Marshal Sir Mohandas Gandhi, V.C. and Cecil Rhodes will be sent out to India and South Africa respectively on missions of diplomacy. Before that, though, US Ambassador Joseph Kennedy, from @ 1940, will wake up in DE and have a ‘cordial’ meeting with Churchill and co… |
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Post by simon darkshade on Mar 24, 2023 13:32:23 GMT
That is fairly straightforward, but the interesting part is how to get there. Issues/Points of Discussion: - The Home Fleet will be sent out to Norway to clear up any Germany surface forces and pave the way for a renewed landing - Actually persuading the French not to throw in the towel on the basis of what had been the previous correlation of forces is going to be extremely difficult - Landing a force in France isn't the difficult part, but getting ports to unload all the armour, mechanised vehicles, supplies and fuel of a very powerful army is a different matter - One of the first goals will be to fix advancing German forces in France and their supply lines and to send out the medium bombers and Wellingtons for strikes, escorted by the Reaper and Mosquito fighters, whilst the light bombers and Mosquito bombers hit up every German logistical node that can be targeted in the Low Countries - Bomber Command's heavies, meanwhile, will be sent out at the Ruhr (In order: Cologne, Essen, Duisberg, Dortmund, Dusseldorf, Bochum and Wuppertal) whilst No. 617 Squadron goes at the Dams. Hamburg is another possible target - Italy is going to be hit in Genoa, Turin, Milan and Bologna whilst the Atlantic and Mediterranean Fleets move to unite for potential operations against the Regia Marina - The major combat elements of the Grand Fleet are roughly 14 days away from Suez at 15 knots; the old battleships, escort destroyers, frigates and corvettes are going to largely be left at Singapore for the time being, along with an amphibious fleet carrying 4 Royal Marine divisions Ah that would make it a longer fight that I was thinking if France is still likely to submit. Although possibly once they see the strength of this new Britain it might have an affect on say the colonies?
Its not going to be good for the German urban population with those bomber forces hitting them, especially with the Luftwaffe having no real experience of air defence and a lot of their current forces being heavily mauled in France. However given that OTL hasn't had the same level of experience of Axis terror bombing it could cause a fair amount of criticism among neutrals and allies. Didn't realise that the Grand Fleet was out east in Singapore. That will be overwhelming once it arrives.
1.) The French defeatists who push for an armistice are going to look silly, very quickly. There will be a more rapid rollover in certain key colonies and with the French fleet. 2.) It is going to be very nasty for them, no doubt. Warsaw and Rotterdam had already happened, but the sheer level of the ‘whirlwind’ is going to cause a reaction 3.) Completely overwhelming. There are ~1700 aircraft on the fleet carriers, a further 400 on the light fleets and 450 on the escort carriers, whilst every one of the battleships utterly dwarfs the Littorios or Bismarck…or, later on, Yamato. The 10 old battleships left at Singapore as afterthoughts? They all have 18” guns. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Mar 24, 2023 13:36:59 GMT
So basically as well as OTL British, Commonwealth and Imperial forces from outside the UK there is the DE UK - which IIRC was significantly bigger and at least its naval forces from outside the UK from DE 1943.
This is going to be overwhelming for the Nazis.
Doubly so if DE supernatural elements are present as well.
What they would think of actual mages or dragons I don't know.
Or the fact that this UK is space competent albeit I assume resources and bases from off Earth haven't been brought along.
1.) Yes, quite correct. Larger in population, economy, industry and military, with the RN able to come home 2.) Absolutely overwhelming 3.) They are present 4.) I plan a couple of sequences to that effect ”Mein Fuhrer…Steiner…Steiner was eaten by a dragon. The offensive failed.” 5.) Space based assets and possessions were left behind, which adds to the confusion I assume no magic as OTL had no magic as far as i can remember. |
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Post by simon darkshade on Mar 24, 2023 13:48:13 GMT
As I said to Steve above, it does make the transition with Britain. That does mean in the future of this ISOTed pocket universe, other nations can theoretically have their own wizards…
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Mar 24, 2023 13:53:46 GMT
As I said to Steve above, it does make the transition with Britain. That does mean in the future of this ISOTed pocket universe, other nations can theoretically have their own wizards… As so the ISOT jump starts magic in OTL, ore do i have to say Darkearth verse little. |
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