simon darkshade
Inspector-General
Member is Online
Posts: 4,976
Likes: 5,840
|
Post by simon darkshade on Mar 24, 2023 14:05:14 GMT
It is a DE spinoff/crossover, so call it whatever you like. It came to me as I felt in a WW2 mood (and wanted to have a break from civil law negotiation and capital gains tax law) as well as having a little unserious fun.
|
|
lordroel
Administrator
Posts: 67,964 
Likes: 49,369
|
Post by lordroel on Mar 24, 2023 14:12:16 GMT
Out of all the exiles, we only have the two Polish corps.” Would those that are organized already, i assume minor countries that escape with what forces that could enter the United Kingdom are also present but are not organized yet. |
|
stevep
Fleet admiral
Posts: 24,832
Likes: 13,222
|
Post by stevep on Mar 24, 2023 14:18:50 GMT
Well the Canadian, Australian and New Zealand forces in the UK could probably win the BoB against the OTL Luftwaffe.
Especially given their technology edge and probably ground support.
Add in the actual RAF and any dragon's looking to join in the hunt - seeing Luftwaffe bombers as canned food and if Hitler and Goring are daft enough to try it.
Mind you with the ground forces in the UK if they can persuade the French to fight on and get some of them across the channel the Battle of France is likely to take a very different swing. Its going to complicate matters having supernatural elements in the scenario. For instance whether they can operate away from the UK as its basically throwing many of the laws of physics out of the window. Forgot that as well as Avalon this UK has all of Ireland. IIRC lengths are 1.5 times our Earth so the land area is 2.25 times greater. I think Mussolini is going to be very concerned about his recent decision to declare was on the 'defeated' allies!  Wondering what Japan and Stalin will be thinking when they hear what happens. Especially since this DE UK is from 1943 so they can tell our world - although may not be believed - about events such as Operation Barbarossa and Pearl Harbour. One other factor is what happens to the DE UK's nuclear programme? Assuming anything based in the UK will be brought alone but anything elsewhere - such as Canada, Australia etc is left behind. Going to be bad for those OTL Brits abroad - or on OTL ships, presumably both civil and naval - who have lost their families and homes and now have a different culture in their 'home' although they would have the option of settling elsewhere such as in the dominions. Also going to be issues with the different nature of the empire. Also going to be some interesting issues since DE UK is used to many different countries, with virtually universal monarchies and religious groups being a lot more powerful than OTL.
1.) Quite nearly, particularly given the tech advantages of RDF and AAA that you correctly identify. 2.) A turkey shoot doesn’t even qualify for this scenario, as there is one other HUGE factor at play - British monthly aircraft production is at the heightened level of late 1943, as well as the scaled advantages of DE 3.) As said, that is the rub and what I’m mulling over at the moment. The scenario is not something that would easily be believed and the time between 14/6 and the armistice was very slim. It puts a spanner in the works and I think one is needed here 4.) The laws of physics have been thrown out the window, set on fire and stomped on. Magical stuff, for want of a better word at this time of night, works 100% in or over Britain, but starts to fade a bit as one goes further away, but not in a clear fashion. Something fundamental has changed with the ISOT 5.) It is a lot more territory, which is needed for elementary things such as fitting all the troops and air bases and providing the large part of the food needed for 116 million civvies and ~4.5 million soldiers and airmen 6.) Give it a few days to a week for the realisation to percolate to Rome, Tokyo and Moscow, by which time reckoning will come to Italy. Also keep in mind that a battle fleet larger than the IJN has been left behind at Singapore; and that the Tsar and his family are in Britain 7.) Tube Alloys has seen a good 50% of its practical facilities disappear, along with the close cooperation with the Yanks. It can be reconstituted, but not anytime soon; the Empire will likely be the first to get a bomb, but it will be post (this) war. 8.) Excellent point. Those encountering problems with going back to Britain will certainly be supported and encouraged to settle in Canada or Australia 9.) Once again, bullseye. There will be quite a bit of shock at France, Spain and Portugal and quite probably some planning done to restore Wilhelm II/III, the Habsburgs and more, almost as a matter of course. This discussion and other attitudes will come through in the next couple of parts, which include an Imperial War Cabinet meeting where Field Marshal Sir Mohandas Gandhi, V.C. and Cecil Rhodes will be sent out to India and South Africa respectively on missions of diplomacy.Before that, though, US Ambassador Joseph Kennedy, from @ 1940, will wake up in DE and have a ‘cordial’ meeting with Churchill and co…
That is going to cause a lot of problems as many in those states, Spain possibly being an exception given the alternative is Franco, will not want a monarchy impose on them. Seeking to restore a monarchy to Russia is going to be even more problematic. Its one thing preserving the existing monarchies in the Balkans where their fairly popular - with the exception of the Serbian dynasty outside Serbia itself - but another matter imposing deposed dynasties, especially when the new rulers would in cases be people from a different world. Its also going to alienate other groups most noticeably the US.
DE Rhodes and Gandhi are both going to have a hard sell in their respective lands. In S Africa Rhodes, who's been dead for 40 years will be popular with all but the more liberal Anglos but viewed with some suspicion by the Boers and will face a much larger black majority than in the DE S Africa. In India Gandhi is likely to be repudiated by not only his OTL version but most/all of Congress, even if he's offering a very quick move to dominion status.
I look forward to seeing the interaction between DE Churchill and Jo Kennedy. The latter is going to get a hell of a shock.
There are going to be a number of fiscal and other details to sort out. Does DE UK still have any claim on assets outside the UK? Does OTL US have any right to charge DE UK with the debts of OTL UK? Ditto with assets and debts in other nations. Also how will DE UK handle the Palestine mess?
Steve
|
|
simon darkshade
Inspector-General
Member is Online
Posts: 4,976
Likes: 5,840
|
Post by simon darkshade on Mar 24, 2023 14:23:50 GMT
As mentioned earlier, the monthly production rate of British aircraft is notably in advance of Germany in June 1940:
September 1943:
90 Meteors and 62 Vampires
429 Spitfires, 236 Hurricanes, 219 Tempests, 162 Typhoons, 129 Mosquitoes, 87 Beaufighters ;
102 Vickers Victoria transports;
75 Whirlwind attack fighters and 84 Battleaxe attack bombers
54 Sunderland, 50 Stirling and 44 Warwick maritime patrol aircraft;
173 Buckingham and 24 Canberra light bombers;
164 Winchester and 120 Mosquito medium bombers;
248 Lancasters, 156 Wellingtons and 125 Halifax heavy bombers;
79 Spearfish, 96 Eagles, 82 Firedrakes and 84 Sea Furies;
402 trainers
1414 fighters
102 transports
159 attack + 197 light bombers
148 MPA
284 medium bombers
529 heavy bombers
341 FAA
428 HB
220 MB
15 LB
973 F
105 R
29 T
150 FAA
415 Trainers
1 HB
239 MB
167 LB
446 F
64 R
0 T
43 FAA
631 Trainers
|
|
lordroel
Administrator
Posts: 67,964
Likes: 49,369
|
Post by lordroel on Mar 24, 2023 14:30:22 GMT
Fighter Command (3883) 1524 Supermarine Spitfire Mk. V-XV (80 Squadrons) 845 Hawker Tempests (36 Squadrons) 316 Bristol Beaufighter Mk. I NF (20 Squadrons) 287 Gloster Meteors (12 Squadrons) 264 Gloster Reapers (11 Squadrons) 207 Supermarine Spitfire PR (15 Squadrons) 184 de Havilland Vampires (9 Squadrons) 256 de Havilland Mosquito NF (8 Squadrons) Think Goring needs to book a single trip to Switzerland as i do not see him saying to Hitler he can defeat the British. |
|
simon darkshade
Inspector-General
Member is Online
Posts: 4,976
Likes: 5,840
|
Post by simon darkshade on Mar 24, 2023 14:31:21 GMT
Out of all the exiles, we only have the two Polish corps.” Would those that are organized already, i assume minor countries that escape with what forces that could enter the United Kingdom are also present but are not organized yet. The Dutch and Norwegian governments and forces in exile of June 1940 find themselves in DE Britain, in place of larger DE exile forces. |
|
simon darkshade
Inspector-General
Member is Online
Posts: 4,976
Likes: 5,840
|
Post by simon darkshade on Mar 24, 2023 14:32:58 GMT
Fighter Command (3883) 1524 Supermarine Spitfire Mk. V-XV (80 Squadrons) 845 Hawker Tempests (36 Squadrons) 316 Bristol Beaufighter Mk. I NF (20 Squadrons) 287 Gloster Meteors (12 Squadrons) 264 Gloster Reapers (11 Squadrons) 207 Supermarine Spitfire PR (15 Squadrons) 184 de Havilland Vampires (9 Squadrons) 256 de Havilland Mosquito NF (8 Squadrons) Think Goring needs to book a single trip to Switzerland as i do not see him saying to Hitler he can defeat the British. He won’t know the precise strength yet, but I have a scene planned where he is informed. Keep in mind that the above figure is increasing every week and month. |
|
lordroel
Administrator
Posts: 67,964
Likes: 49,369
|
Post by lordroel on Mar 24, 2023 14:33:38 GMT
Would those that are organized already, i assume minor countries that escape with what forces that could enter the United Kingdom are also present but are not organized yet. The Dutch and Norwegian governments and forces in exile of June 1940 find themselves in DE Britain, in place of larger DE exile forces. That is for land, air and see, with only Poland having 2 corpses. |
|
simon darkshade
Inspector-General
Member is Online
Posts: 4,976
Likes: 5,840
|
Post by simon darkshade on Mar 24, 2023 14:44:17 GMT
1.) Quite nearly, particularly given the tech advantages of RDF and AAA that you correctly identify. 2.) A turkey shoot doesn’t even qualify for this scenario, as there is one other HUGE factor at play - British monthly aircraft production is at the heightened level of late 1943, as well as the scaled advantages of DE 3.) As said, that is the rub and what I’m mulling over at the moment. The scenario is not something that would easily be believed and the time between 14/6 and the armistice was very slim. It puts a spanner in the works and I think one is needed here 4.) The laws of physics have been thrown out the window, set on fire and stomped on. Magical stuff, for want of a better word at this time of night, works 100% in or over Britain, but starts to fade a bit as one goes further away, but not in a clear fashion. Something fundamental has changed with the ISOT 5.) It is a lot more territory, which is needed for elementary things such as fitting all the troops and air bases and providing the large part of the food needed for 116 million civvies and ~4.5 million soldiers and airmen 6.) Give it a few days to a week for the realisation to percolate to Rome, Tokyo and Moscow, by which time reckoning will come to Italy. Also keep in mind that a battle fleet larger than the IJN has been left behind at Singapore; and that the Tsar and his family are in Britain 7.) Tube Alloys has seen a good 50% of its practical facilities disappear, along with the close cooperation with the Yanks. It can be reconstituted, but not anytime soon; the Empire will likely be the first to get a bomb, but it will be post (this) war. 8.) Excellent point. Those encountering problems with going back to Britain will certainly be supported and encouraged to settle in Canada or Australia 9.) Once again, bullseye. There will be quite a bit of shock at France, Spain and Portugal and quite probably some planning done to restore Wilhelm II/III, the Habsburgs and more, almost as a matter of course. This discussion and other attitudes will come through in the next couple of parts, which include an Imperial War Cabinet meeting where Field Marshal Sir Mohandas Gandhi, V.C. and Cecil Rhodes will be sent out to India and South Africa respectively on missions of diplomacy.Before that, though, US Ambassador Joseph Kennedy, from @ 1940, will wake up in DE and have a ‘cordial’ meeting with Churchill and co…
That is going to cause a lot of problems as many in those states, Spain possibly being an exception given the alternative is Franco, will not want a monarchy impose on them. Seeking to restore a monarchy to Russia is going to be even more problematic. Its one thing preserving the existing monarchies in the Balkans where their fairly popular - with the exception of the Serbian dynasty outside Serbia itself - but another matter imposing deposed dynasties, especially when the new rulers would in cases be people from a different world. Its also going to alienate other groups most noticeably the US.
DE Rhodes and Gandhi are both going to have a hard sell in their respective lands. In S Africa Rhodes, who's been dead for 40 years will be popular with all but the more liberal Anglos but viewed with some suspicion by the Boers and will face a much larger black majority than in the DE S Africa. In India Gandhi is likely to be repudiated by not only his OTL version but most/all of Congress, even if he's offering a very quick move to dominion status.
I look forward to seeing the interaction between DE Churchill and Jo Kennedy. The latter is going to get a hell of a shock.
There are going to be a number of fiscal and other details to sort out. Does DE UK still have any claim on assets outside the UK? Does OTL US have any right to charge DE UK with the debts of OTL UK? Ditto with assets and debts in other nations. Also how will DE UK handle the Palestine mess?
Steve
Steve, 1.) Yes, absolutely. It won’t be the only thing the Americans don’t like. 2.) Their missions will be…interesting… Gandhi meeting his counterpart, replete with battle scars and an eye patch, will be a bit of fun more than an actual serious argument that these two figures can make everything right 3.) I’m not sure what will surprise him more - the greater power, the fantastical stuff, the attitudes of the Protestant and assimilated Ireland 4.) In order: - Yes, there is some sort of claim, albeit one never encountered before in paw - None of the DE WW2 debts to the USA can be charged, but there would be grounds for the Americans to seek payment of, say, the Earthly WW1 debt; that they may get an agreement to pay that off in cash will be a bit of a shock - In general, DE Britain will honour debts existing as of 13/6/40 and will lay claim to Earthly assets of the same date - Throw the doors open to Jewish migration, send in troops and work towards an orderly transition to a Dominion would be the first instinct |
|
simon darkshade
Inspector-General
Member is Online
Posts: 4,976
Likes: 5,840
|
Post by simon darkshade on Mar 24, 2023 14:54:24 GMT
The Dutch and Norwegian governments and forces in exile of June 1940 find themselves in DE Britain, in place of larger DE exile forces. That is for land, air and see, with only Poland having 2 corpses. The Poles have two full corps of 6 divisions. The Norwegians and Dutch at this point have a Brigade worth of manpower in Britain, no air forces and, in the case of the Dutch, 1 incomplete destroyer and 4 submarines. There won’t really be a pressing need for them to be in service. |
|
lordroel
Administrator
Posts: 67,964
Likes: 49,369
|
Post by lordroel on Mar 24, 2023 15:04:11 GMT
That is for land, air and see, with only Poland having 2 corpses. The Poles have two full corps of 6 divisions. The Norwegians and Dutch at this point have a Brigade worth of manpower in Britain, no air forces and, in the case of the Dutch, 1 incomplete destroyer and 4 submarines. There won’t really be a pressing need for them to be in service. Is the Polish Royal Family also in DE Britain, if i remember correctly it was a monarchy. |
|
stevep
Fleet admiral
Posts: 24,832
Likes: 13,222
|
Post by stevep on Mar 24, 2023 20:12:31 GMT
As mentioned earlier, the monthly production rate of British aircraft is notably in advance of Germany in June 1940: September 1943: 90 Meteors and 62 Vampires 429 Spitfires, 236 Hurricanes, 219 Tempests, 162 Typhoons, 129 Mosquitoes, 87 Beaufighters ;102 Vickers Victoria transports; 75 Whirlwind attack fighters and 84 Battleaxe attack bombers 54 Sunderland, 50 Stirling and 44 Warwick maritime patrol aircraft; 173 Buckingham and 24 Canberra light bombers; 164 Winchester and 120 Mosquito medium bombers; 248 Lancasters, 156 Wellingtons and 125 Halifax heavy bombers; 79 Spearfish, 96 Eagles, 82 Firedrakes and 84 Sea Furies; 402 trainers
Well that total of single engined fighters being produced every month is substantially larger than the total of Fighter Command at any point during the BoB IIRC. One question might be training pilots for them as OTL of course the empire training scheme meant many were trained in safer air space in the dominions and they would have been lost here. Even so the numbers and even more for the strategic bombers will be overwhelming. Plus given the larger size of DE their all going to have markedly longer ranges than OTL planes.
|
|
simon darkshade
Inspector-General
Member is Online
Posts: 4,976
Likes: 5,840
|
Post by simon darkshade on Mar 25, 2023 0:34:13 GMT
|
|
simon darkshade
Inspector-General
Member is Online
Posts: 4,976
Likes: 5,840
|
Post by simon darkshade on Mar 25, 2023 9:05:49 GMT
The Poles have two full corps of 6 divisions. The Norwegians and Dutch at this point have a Brigade worth of manpower in Britain, no air forces and, in the case of the Dutch, 1 incomplete destroyer and 4 submarines. There won’t really be a pressing need for them to be in service. Is the Polish Royal Family also in DE Britain, if i remember correctly it was a monarchy. They are; this is of comparatively less importance in a non-monarchic Poland. |
|
lordroel
Administrator
Posts: 67,964
Likes: 49,369
|
Post by lordroel on Mar 25, 2023 9:51:15 GMT
Is the Polish Royal Family also in DE Britain, if i remember correctly it was a monarchy. They are; this is of comparatively less importance in a non-monarchic Poland. So will this be a issues in a world where there are less monarchies than OTL. |
|
Wondering what Japan and Stalin will be thinking when they hear what happens. Especially since this DE UK is from 1943 so they can tell our world - although may not be believed - about events such as Operation Barbarossa and Pearl Harbour.