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Post by Max Sinister on Feb 11, 2023 18:25:29 GMT
This was mentioned by @lordroel in the ACW Real Time thread, for January 6th:
"New York mayor, Fernando Wood, calls for New York city to secede from the United States in an effort to remain neutral for the upcoming conflict."
At the first glimpse, it seems unbelievable, even if you consider the draft riots (as seen in "Gangs of New York").
But when I think about it... if they succeeded, they might turn into a smuggler's heaven, being able to sell lots of arms to the CSA which they can't produce themselves.
Of course, that'd hurt the US in the long run even more than the secession of NYC alone would - but it might help NYC.
On the condition of course that their secession is successful. What'll Lincoln do? I have no idea... re-conquering the city would be a nightmare.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Feb 11, 2023 18:29:59 GMT
This was mentioned by @lordroel in the ACW Real Time thread, for January 6th: "New York mayor, Fernando Wood, calls for New York city to secede from the United States in an effort to remain neutral for the upcoming conflict." At the first glimpse, it seems unbelievable, even if you consider the draft riots (as seen in "Gangs of New York"). But when I think about it... if they succeeded, they might turn into a smuggler's heaven, being able to sell lots of arms to the CSA which they can't produce themselves. Of course, that'd hurt the US in the long run even more than the secession of NYC alone would - but it might help NYC. On the condition of course that their secession is successful. What'll Lincoln do? I have no idea... re-conquering the city would be a nightmare. That would split the New England region from the rest of the United States, would they go also to form reform the New England Commonwealth, the United Kingdom would back them if thy do more than they would back the CSA. |
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Post by Max Sinister on Feb 11, 2023 19:02:56 GMT
That would split the New England region from the rest of the United States, would they go also to form reform the New England Commonwealth, the United Kingdom would back them if thy do more than they would back the CSA. That too?! I don't know, but if yes, we might have the necessary PoD for all of those who want to see a world where the CSA are successful.
In fact, we'll have to wonder whether the separatists'll stop there. What about California, the Mormons in Utah, the prairie Indians?
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Feb 11, 2023 19:05:48 GMT
That would split the New England region from the rest of the United States, would they go also to form reform the New England Commonwealth, the United Kingdom would back them if thy do more than they would back the CSA. That too?! I don't know, but if yes, we might have the necessary PoD for all of those who want to see a world where the CSA are successful. In fact, we'll have to wonder whether the separatists'll stop there. What about California, the Mormons in Utah, the prairie Indians? Those could go as well, the question is, what will remain of the United States when the dust of secession has settled. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Feb 12, 2023 15:56:49 GMT
Ah remember he's the mayor of New York City. As such even if the city seceded it wouldn't affect the position of the rest of the state so New England wouldn't be isolated from the rest of the US - albeit that a lot of the rail links might be disrupted. Furthermore not seeing how it could be a smugglers paradise when its a long way from the rebel south.
As such even if Lincoln didn't decide to act against the city it would be distinctly isolated and could have an uncertain economic future.
However another secession bid, in the north and unrelated to slavery, even if quickly suppressed would have impacts. You might see other areas expressing unrest and a lot less support in parts of the north for a war to suppress the rebellion in the south.
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Post by Max Sinister on Feb 17, 2023 0:41:31 GMT
In "Gone with the Wind", Rhett Butler does business with New Yorkers.
But yes, the question is, how the rest of the US will deal with this development. If they decide to cut off food (and maybe water?) to NYC, they might be in trouble.
It'd be an odd coalition, the half-feudalist South with half-libertarian NYC. Crazy enough to work?
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Feb 17, 2023 7:24:04 GMT
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Post by American hist on Mar 13, 2023 18:56:53 GMT
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mspence
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Post by mspence on Mar 13, 2023 21:49:15 GMT
As the five boroughs were still independent cities, this might cause a rift between Manhattan (where most of the pro Southern sentiment seemed to be) & the other boroughs. I think Brooklyn was mostly pro Union, for ex.
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Post by Max Sinister on Mar 15, 2023 23:37:53 GMT
A bunch of people rebelling against the draft is one thing. But even the mayor supporting seperation?
But yes, without Brooklyn and other parts, it's hard to imagine how NYC would be viable. Let alone food and water.
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Post by American hist on Mar 16, 2023 2:01:52 GMT
A bunch of people rebelling against the draft is one thing. But even the mayor supporting seperation? But yes, without Brooklyn and other parts, it's hard to imagine how NYC would be viable. Let alone food and water. All true! How ever governor of New York Horacio Seymour right before the attack on fort, Sumter favored the south being let go of and favored New York City’s separation at least, in terms of not use of force. What the governor could do is promise that the state well use no force , and will resume trading practices with the free city acting as if nothing has happened. It is interesting Lincoln’s sent agents to stop New York City’s illegal slave traders of Africa who were caught by Lincolns federally appointed law enforcement officials. Some Republicans actually did favor compromise with the south in exchange for the union. However, that clearly is not the same as pure treason. However, it is also important to know that there will be many people of New York, who just wanna get by another single day and will feel either in different or go with the flow, depending how the economy is doing. At least, in the very beginning New York City oligarchs would likely have strong support from the working class as they would be profiting handsomely from transportation, industry, and financing as they would wish to trade with both factions . |
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Post by diamondstorm on Mar 21, 2023 20:52:34 GMT
I think a secession of New York City, Staten Island, and Long Island would be interesting but I don’t think it would join the CSA per se, just become its own independent state.
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miletus12
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Post by miletus12 on Mar 22, 2023 13:27:29 GMT
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Mar 22, 2023 16:00:37 GMT
Agree that Lincoln would oppose such a secession attempt but if he does it by force what's the effect on assorted border states - most noticeably Kentucky, I think this is before the south made the blunder of breaching its neutrality so it could swing the state into secession itself. Its still likely to be a war the north would win but going to be longer and bloodier.
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miletus12
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Post by miletus12 on Mar 22, 2023 16:42:52 GMT
Agree that Lincoln would oppose such a secession attempt but if he does it by force what's the effect on assorted border states - most noticeably Kentucky, I think this is before the south made the blunder of breaching its neutrality so it could swing the state into secession itself. Its still likely to be a war the north would win but going to be longer and bloodier.
None of that was possible. If you knew the American Civil War history, you would know Lincoln's armies moved into them in 1862 when Confederates tried to seize control of Kentucky (Indiana militia overran the state.), western Virginia (Pro Union forces kicked the Confederates out.), Missouri and eastern Kansas (John C. Fremont organized pro-Union forces.). Revolts were suppressed in southern California and Colorado. The MORMONS were instrumental in those cases as Utah supplied a lot of Union support out west in those cases. Funny that last loyalty when you consider that the federal government under the traitor, Buchanan, made war upon them. |
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