stevep
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Post by stevep on Mar 23, 2023 16:53:26 GMT
Agree that Lincoln would oppose such a secession attempt but if he does it by force what's the effect on assorted border states - most noticeably Kentucky, I think this is before the south made the blunder of breaching its neutrality so it could swing the state into secession itself. Its still likely to be a war the north would win but going to be longer and bloodier.
None of that was possible. If you knew the American Civil War history, you would know Lincoln's armies moved into them in 1862 when Confederates tried to seize control of Kentucky (Indiana militia overran the state.), western Virginia (Pro Union forces kicked the Confederates out.), Missouri and eastern Kansas (John C. Fremont organized pro-Union forces.). Revolts were suppressed in southern California and Colorado. The MORMONS were instrumental in those cases as Utah supplied a lot of Union support out west in those cases. Funny that last loyalty when you consider that the federal government under the traitor, Buchanan, made war upon them.
Which is long after the date being discussed in this thread which is early 1861. Kentucky and even Virginia and some other states that joined the CSA after Lincoln made clear he would use force to drive the rebels back into the union were still undecided. Fremont was instrumental in early operations in Missouri and Kansas but as an ardent anti-slaver he started freeing all slaves in areas under his control, whether or not their owners were rebels. This prompted a reaction in Kentucky and other border states and in turn for Lincoln to quickly reject his actions and sack him.
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miletus12
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Post by miletus12 on Mar 23, 2023 17:01:40 GMT
None of that was possible. If you knew the American Civil War history, you would know Lincoln's armies moved into them in 1862 when Confederates tried to seize control of Kentucky (Indiana militia overran the state.), western Virginia (Pro Union forces kicked the Confederates out.), Missouri and eastern Kansas (John C. Fremont organized pro-Union forces.). Revolts were suppressed in southern California and Colorado. The MORMONS were instrumental in those cases as Utah supplied a lot of Union support out west in those cases. Funny that last loyalty when you consider that the federal government under the traitor, Buchanan, made war upon them.
Which is long after the date being discussed in this thread which is early 1861. Kentucky and even Virginia and some other states that joined the CSA after Lincoln made clear he would use force to drive the rebels back into the union were still undecided. Fremont was instrumental in early operations in Missouri and Kansas but as an ardent anti-slaver he started freeing all slaves in areas under his control, whether or not their owners were rebels. This prompted a reaction in Kentucky and other border states and in turn for Lincoln to quickly reject his actions and sack him.
The troops were there. They would be sent. If for draft riots, what makes an act of secession in 1861 any more legitimate defiance? I mean look at what happened to Virginia? |
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miletus12
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Post by miletus12 on Mar 23, 2023 17:06:41 GMT
This prompted a reaction in Kentucky and other border states and in turn for Lincoln to quickly reject his actions and sack him. Just the same, those troops he raised and the governments Fremont stood up, Lincoln USED to drive the Confederates out. Use the man, use his plan, then repudiate the man. Lincoln was not the last POTUS to do this. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Mar 24, 2023 13:41:38 GMT
Which is long after the date being discussed in this thread which is early 1861. Kentucky and even Virginia and some other states that joined the CSA after Lincoln made clear he would use force to drive the rebels back into the union were still undecided. Fremont was instrumental in early operations in Missouri and Kansas but as an ardent anti-slaver he started freeing all slaves in areas under his control, whether or not their owners were rebels. This prompted a reaction in Kentucky and other border states and in turn for Lincoln to quickly reject his actions and sack him.
The troops were there. They would be sent. If for draft riots, what makes an act of secession in 1861 any more legitimate defiance? I mean look at what happened to Virginia?
Which is missing the point that what you said before was wrong. This is before not after Kentucky had committed to the union so a violent suppression of a succession movement is going to swing Kentucky somewhat to the southern stance and probably move Virginia and others that direction faster.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Mar 24, 2023 13:42:52 GMT
This prompted a reaction in Kentucky and other border states and in turn for Lincoln to quickly reject his actions and sack him. Just the same, those troops he raised and the governments Fremont stood up, Lincoln USED to drive the Confederates out. Use the man, use his plan, then repudiate the man. Lincoln was not the last POTUS to do this.
He sacked him and Freemont wasn't used again. Also he rejected the idea of slaves in rebel held areas being automatically free until a couple of years down the line when the war was already clearly being won.
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miletus12
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Post by miletus12 on Mar 25, 2023 20:41:20 GMT
The troops were there. They would be sent. If for draft riots, what makes an act of secession in 1861 any more legitimate defiance? I mean look at what happened to Virginia?
Which is missing the point that what you said before was wrong. This is before not after Kentucky had committed to the union so a violent suppression of a succession movement is going to swing Kentucky somewhat to the southern stance and probably move Virginia and others that direction faster.
. I mean the situation was not as you described. |
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miletus12
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Post by miletus12 on Mar 25, 2023 20:45:37 GMT
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Post by American hist on Mar 25, 2023 23:13:37 GMT
A lot of things have to go right for all of the non-Confederate secessionist movements to occur in a particularly well-coordinated fashion. New York City I might argue might be the most difficult possibility unless one counts Delaware give or take as this all depends on the situation. The emancipation proclamation was issued prematurely at anything in my belief because the battle was tactically indecisive.
For the new york city session coals to glow hot it would help if perhaps the south decided not to seize the military forts and other property on Confederate territory. This perhaps isn't really an option if people are supposed to take the south seriously. However many northern withdrew their Southern support such as Daniel sickles once the star of the West was fired on and the union forts seized over intimidations.
The northern newspapers that were republican we’re not very happy over for Sumter trying to be blockaded right before four Sumter was actually attacked. If the south chose to not attack fort Sumter. The confederate leader ship better work on Northern public reaction. It would have to remind the newspapers that Lincoln administration had lied the entire time, and that this so-called relief expedition was not merely food, but reinforcement of soldiers and weapons this alone would reduce some of the northern tensions against the south.
I wonder if the mayor who did some good things for his leadership such as reducing corruption would probably use a massive bribery campaign with his oligarchs for a legal secessionist movement by the city Council, and try to buy off some of the police force guarding the navel yards
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Post by American hist on Mar 26, 2023 0:35:16 GMT
Well, treat the book with perhaps a grain of salt. I do recommend the book American nations. It explains that America was founded on separate cultural foundations which are sometimes in conflict with one another, and sometimes a area in America will share both cultural characteristics of each regional nation
New York City has always dominated the empire state and in 1860 contained 1/4th of the population of the entire state. The big apple had a history of supporting slavery and the city was founded on the Dutch West Indies Company which engaged heavily in the transatlantic slave trade and the institution of cattle. The very enterprise and money aristocracy are just some of the cultural cateristics left over by the Dutch merchants who used pluralism as their way of life. The same city became the tory capital during the American revolution and throughout the Hudson Valley counties making modern-day NYChad the most amount of slaves anywhere in the state. The city not only had great economic and political ties to the south there were many social ties from dixie. New York State was traditionally democratic and Lincoln carried the state while the democrats were divided. Before Fort Sumter, it was the new york Republicans seward/weed factions who favored the south being let go of where the Democrats were generally willing to negotiate first for the union with many democrats, refusing to go to war, unless they were fired upon.
In January 18 1861 the Democrat state committee issued a call for convention to be held on January 31 in Albany during the convention the central Democrat committee stated that they favored a policy of compromise and peaceful settlement of dispute .
On January 22, John a Kennedy, the superintendent of police in New York City, sees the steamer Monticello bound for Savannah, Georgia carrying weapons. This episode became a major incident before it was finished governor. Edwin Morgan apologized the state of Georgia exchange this episode several New York City vessels were seized in Savannah as hostages, while the United States secretary of war, Joseph Hall refused to support Kennedy
There were many people in New York City, and elsewhere in the state, who, while they oppose the session, believed that Lincoln wishes for do use of force and plans to quell the rebellion would only make the situation worse so there would be many new trolls, who would not so much join any particular side during a New York City secessionist movement. Other New Yorkers believe this secessionist movement, if successful, believed it served Lincoln right for furthering dividing the country . The New York State republican party favored a policy that would permit the south to go in peace among both segments of the Seward lb and weed faction. However, the average rank-and-file republican tended to support Lincoln’s position of no compromise, and use of force!
At this moment I believe the union Democrats would be able to sell them selves as the true saviors of the union, by agreeing to compromise where the war Republicans were the true people who were causing this union as they wanted their own selfish agenda that would cause a war that actually would destroy the union . It is interesting Lincolns abuse of civil liberties when he is so staunchly discussed the defense of the constitution and the union.
Lincoln believed that there were overwhelming majorities of southern union who if you just give them time well over calm the secessionist movement with all factors considered, I believe Lincoln would be more reluctant for use of force, force, allowing more steam for the New York City secessionist movement to be Abel to mount a coup
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Mar 26, 2023 13:28:19 GMT
There is a world of difference between Kentucky in early 61 and in 63. In the former case its trying to maintain neutrality in what seems an increasingly likely conflict but urging violence to be avoided. In that position its not going to be happy if a movement in New York City for some form of secession or trade links with the rebelling states in the south is violently suppressed by force by Lincoln. I didn't say it would join the rebellion but at the least it will be more favourable to those states being allowed to leave peacefully.
In 63 a rebel raid, which will cause damage and disruption as well as probably death in a state that has already swung to the union after an earlier inclusion from the south breached that same neutrality is a totally different matter. Interesting as well that only ~400 ill prepared volunteers were willing to oppose the raid.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Mar 26, 2023 13:34:39 GMT
I was in error there as thinking of the Gettsyburg Address in Nov 1863. The actual call for slaves in the still unoccupied south was after Antietam when the actual result was still unclear to many people at the time. It was actually criticized by many people at the time as an attempt to incite racial war to weaken the rebels, but at probably huge cost for the oppressed blacks if they had attempted such a rebellion or simply to flee their bondage.
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miletus12
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Post by miletus12 on Mar 26, 2023 13:41:14 GMT
There is a world of difference between Kentucky in early 61 and in 63. In the former case its trying to maintain neutrality in what seems an increasingly likely conflict but urging violence to be avoided. In that position its not going to be happy if a movement in New York City for some form of secession or trade links with the rebelling states in the south is violently suppressed by force by Lincoln. I didn't say it would join the rebellion but at the least it will be more favourable to those states being allowed to leave peacefully.
In 63 a rebel raid, which will cause damage and disruption as well as probably death in a state that has already swung to the union after an earlier inclusion from the south breached that same neutrality is a totally different matter. Interesting as well that only ~400 ill prepared volunteers were willing to oppose the raid.
You missed the point as Henry Halleck did and Morton and Lincoln did not. You are not as steeped in the Civil War as an American is, Steve. You do not know these details. (^^^) |
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miletus12
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Post by miletus12 on Mar 26, 2023 13:53:33 GMT
I was in error there as thinking of the Gettsyburg Address in Nov 1863. The actual call for slaves in the still unoccupied south was after Antietam when the actual result was still unclear to many people at the time. It was actually criticized by many people at the time as an attempt to incite racial war to weaken the rebels, but at probably huge cost for the oppressed blacks if they had attempted such a rebellion or simply to flee their bondage.
As hard as it is to imagine, the Union army was short of infantry after Antietam. The Confederates were on defense and thus could enjoy a defender's advantage of inflicting Napoleonic type loss rates of 2 to 1 against an attacker, except that Union soldiers proved better than that and the attacker / defender ratio was 3 / 2. It still meant troop shortages as the captured territory had to be occupied by provosts and garrisons. At the point of contact a fighting Union army often had a ratio of 9 or 8 to 7 instead of the desired 10 to 7 an attacker needed. q175,000 more EAGER infantry recruits was a strong calculus. And yes, Steve, They PAID a dear price for their freedom. Plus, add in that about 200,000 Confederate militia were wasted on slave revolt duty and were not at the front, and add the work stoppages and runaways that took the slave manpower the Confederate army relied upon for its logistics labor and engineer work, away from its armies. The total manpower that Lee and Johnson had available to work was sliced by 1/3. That helped, even if the critics cried that Lincoln was trying to incite a slave rebellion. That was not Lincoln's intent. He was out to win the war first and then free the slaves as a part of the victory. Slave rebellion was not needed nor desired. Slave resistance, passive or otherwise imagined, and more Union infantry was what Lincoln wanted and that was what was communicated through the slave telegraph and that was what Lincoln got. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Mar 26, 2023 16:35:22 GMT
There is a world of difference between Kentucky in early 61 and in 63. In the former case its trying to maintain neutrality in what seems an increasingly likely conflict but urging violence to be avoided. In that position its not going to be happy if a movement in New York City for some form of secession or trade links with the rebelling states in the south is violently suppressed by force by Lincoln. I didn't say it would join the rebellion but at the least it will be more favourable to those states being allowed to leave peacefully.
In 63 a rebel raid, which will cause damage and disruption as well as probably death in a state that has already swung to the union after an earlier inclusion from the south breached that same neutrality is a totally different matter. Interesting as well that only ~400 ill prepared volunteers were willing to oppose the raid.
You missed the point as Henry Halleck did and Morton and Lincoln did not. You are not as steeped in the Civil War as an American is, Steve. You do not know these details. (^^^)
Well that's a good description of how much Morton and by your suggestion Lincoln feared Kentucky might end up in the opposing camp.
I'm actually reasonably knowledgeable both from my interest in history and attendance at a USCW discussion site. Whether more knowledgeable or less than you I wouldn't say but I do know enough to be able to point out inconsistencies with your arguments.
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Post by American hist on Mar 26, 2023 16:57:37 GMT
Utah and the American civil war An independent Utah is plausible in late 1862 or 1863 when Confederate victory produced turning points that combines with tense relations that already existed. A copperhead rebellion almost happened as it was in the works.
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