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Post by diamondstorm on Jun 19, 2023 1:20:19 GMT
This is a separate question, but what would it take for Massachusetts to not ratify the Constitution (it the first state to have major opposition to ratification after the first five states did so with little issue)? More specifically, I mean what would it take to have the nine proposed amendments to the Constitution recommended by John Hancock to be changed, reduced, or eliminated? Get him rip-roaring drunk. I actually did a little bit more research and it looks like if Samuel Adams remained silent instead of speaking up and requesting the debates continue, it's quite plausible a no-vote could have taken place earlier than OTL's ratification vote. Now, I'm a bit more confused about what specifically could've caused New York and Virginia to vote against it if Massachusetts did. |
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miletus12
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To get yourself lost, just follow the signs.
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Post by miletus12 on Jun 19, 2023 1:27:02 GMT
Get him rip-roaring drunk. I actually did a little bit more research and it looks like if Samuel Adams remained silent instead of speaking up and requesting the debates continue, it's quite plausible a no-vote could have taken place earlier than OTL's ratification vote. Now, I'm a bit more confused about what specifically could've caused New York and Virginia to vote against it if Massachusetts did. Let me quote the exceptions letter: You will find , that the original constitution had this problem with Virginia as well. |
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Post by diamondstorm on Jun 19, 2023 3:23:54 GMT
I actually did a little bit more research and it looks like if Samuel Adams remained silent instead of speaking up and requesting the debates continue, it's quite plausible a no-vote could have taken place earlier than OTL's ratification vote. Now, I'm a bit more confused about what specifically could've caused New York and Virginia to vote against it if Massachusetts did. Let me quote the exceptions letter: You will find , that the original constitution had this problem with Virginia as well. That I understand, at least on a higher level of understanding. I'm more so looking at specific points within each convention when there were additional calls for votes on ratification and it could've realistically ended up with a "no" vote in both states. |
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Post by Otto Kretschmer on Jun 21, 2023 13:27:00 GMT
WI: no Frederick William I of Prussia.
What happens to Prussia without the soldier king and his legacy?
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miletus12
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Post by miletus12 on Jun 21, 2023 13:39:01 GMT
WI: no Frederick William I of Prussia. What happens to Prussia without the soldier king and his legacy? A ridiculous Germanic ineffective imitation of Louis XIV France or maybe it goes the way of Poland? |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jun 21, 2023 15:35:55 GMT
WI: no Frederick William I of Prussia. What happens to Prussia without the soldier king and his legacy?
Without Prussia upsetting the apple cart the old Grand Alliance of Austria, Britain and the Netherlands, supported by assorted other German states - with such exceptions such as Bavaria - survives longer and will tend to keep France in check, at least until it has some revolution which upsets things.
The uncertain thing here would be Russia? Would it aid France or the alliance or be a swing state switching between the two as circumstances allow or be more interested in pressing south against the Ottomans and possibly Persians?
In the longer term what happens to Germany if Austria stays the dominant power there, as well as being a predominantly non-German power is going to be difficult to tell. A lot would depend on whether a rival to its leadership of Germany appears - possibly Prussia under a later leader, Bavaria or someone else and whether without the French revolutionary wars they could make such a challenge stick.
One other issue of course is what happens to Poland? Russia will want to make territorial gains, especially towards control of more of the Baltic and the country is weak, with the disaster of the liberum veto being a major problem for real reform. With Prussia not a significant player would an Austrian/Saxony led bloc seek, whether successful or not, to restrict Russian gains at its expense?
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miletus12
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Post by miletus12 on Jun 21, 2023 16:11:50 GMT
1848 succeeds.
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575
Captain
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Post by 575 on Jun 21, 2023 16:30:58 GMT
Well fighting the German Confederation instead of Prussia would probably be a bad thing in the long run though in the opening moves there is a chance that Denmark will defeat the Revolution with no train moving Prussian troops fast going into Schleswig-Holstein. Edit: The Danish Army defeated the Insurgents at Bov 9 April 1848 and reached Schleswig City two days later as the Insurgents ran off. There the Danish Army halted awaiting the Prussian onslaught - ITTL if there is no such Prussia there will be no Prussian Troops reaching Schleswig Duchy around the 15 April 1848 and Wrangel and the main force the 21 April 1848.
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Post by Otto Kretschmer on Jun 22, 2023 13:24:44 GMT
WI: Empress Elisabeth lives a few years longer, no miracle of the House of Brandenburg.
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Post by Max Sinister on Jun 24, 2023 11:59:46 GMT
WI: no Frederick William I of Prussia. What happens to Prussia without the soldier king and his legacy? A ridiculous Germanic ineffective imitation of Louis XIV France or maybe it goes the way of Poland? But if Prussia can't participate in eating up Poland, who else will do so? And who would take the Prussian territory? It was much bigger than its neighbors save Austria, it'd be hard to digest.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jun 24, 2023 12:37:48 GMT
A ridiculous Germanic ineffective imitation of Louis XIV France or maybe it goes the way of Poland? But if Prussia can't participate in eating up Poland, who else will do so? And who would take the Prussian territory? It was much bigger than its neighbors save Austria, it'd be hard to digest.
Its not necessarily that much bigger, especially without the gaining of Silesia. Plus a lot of the land, in much of Pomerania and Prussia is relatively poor. Saxony was smaller but probably overall somewhat richer for much of the period prior to ~1740. Bavaria similarly was the 2nd power in Germany for much of the period before Frederick took Silesia and managed to get away with it.
Not necessary that Prussia gets swallowed up by someone else. It could continue but never achieve great power status, or be split up at some time for dynastic reasons with some elements going to different branches of the family. If it never achieves great power status and possibly loses its small territories in western Germany then even if something like the French revolution and then Napoleon happens its unlikely to be given the Rhineland territories for the 'watch on the Rhine'. Without them its never likely to become the unifier of Germany.
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Post by Max Sinister on Jun 24, 2023 13:16:44 GMT
But if Prussia can't participate in eating up Poland, who else will do so? And who would take the Prussian territory? It was much bigger than its neighbors save Austria, it'd be hard to digest.
Its not necessarily that much bigger, especially without the gaining of Silesia. Plus a lot of the land, in much of Pomerania and Prussia is relatively poor. Saxony was smaller but probably overall somewhat richer for much of the period prior to ~1740. Bavaria similarly was the 2nd power in Germany for much of the period before Frederick took Silesia and managed to get away with it.
Not necessary that Prussia gets swallowed up by someone else. It could continue but never achieve great power status, or be split up at some time for dynastic reasons with some elements going to different branches of the family. If it never achieves great power status and possibly loses its small territories in western Germany then even if something like the French revolution and then Napoleon happens its unlikely to be given the Rhineland territories for the 'watch on the Rhine'. Without them its never likely to become the unifier of Germany.
Before the 7YW, Prussia was no great power, but definitely not weaker than Bavaria. Probably not even if you added the other Wittelsbach lands (Palatinate, Rhineland). Also, they were the only ones besides the Habsburgs who were allowed to call themselves kings in the HRE, that counted for something at that time.
Yes, with anyone in place of Frederick the Only One, Prussia would probably be restricted to its 1740 borders, plus a bit more.
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Post by Otto Kretschmer on Jun 30, 2023 14:09:58 GMT
WI: no 4th crusade.
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mspence
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Post by mspence on Jul 2, 2023 9:02:59 GMT
WI: Pompey defeats Caesar?
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Post by Max Sinister on Jul 8, 2023 19:58:01 GMT
There were several European states where people tried to make a revolution, and neither was very successful. Do you want all of them to succeed? |
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