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Post by Max Sinister on Jun 3, 2023 14:09:08 GMT
How do you get "polytheisms historically common descended from a monotheism faith." as the opposite has been the case historically? Unless that was a typo or your claiming that Christianity and Islam are polytheistic which they aren't. They have elements of those but its a fairly fringe factor.
Among their leaderships - fringe indeed. Among the faithful - maybe the opposite.
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miletus12
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Post by miletus12 on Jun 3, 2023 14:25:21 GMT
It is quite clear. One monotheism (Judaism as souerce) and two polytheisms *(Christianity and Islam common descended or should I have written "evolved from"?). Why did you have trouble picking up on it? So you did not pick up on cultural evolution? The second comment about monotheism has nothing to do with the prior discussion about how polytheisms historically common descended from a monotheism. So from where did that remark come?
Given that you said
it sounded distinctly like you were referring to Judaism. Especially since you were replying to a suggestion on a polytheistic Judaism. However see now it can also be read as the origins of Christianity.
The 2nd comment was about how having those 'polytheistic' elements hasn't changed the fundamentalist nature of much of the two monotheistic faiths.
How do you get "polytheisms historically common descended from a monotheism faith." as the opposite has been the case historically? Unless that was a typo or your claiming that Christianity and Islam are polytheistic which they aren't. They have elements of those but its a fairly fringe factor.
"Common descended" means birthed from and separate.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jun 4, 2023 9:37:44 GMT
How do you get "polytheisms historically common descended from a monotheism faith." as the opposite has been the case historically? Unless that was a typo or your claiming that Christianity and Islam are polytheistic which they aren't. They have elements of those but its a fairly fringe factor.
Among their leaderships - fringe indeed. Among the faithful - maybe the opposite.
True but ultimately its the leadership that tends to control doctrine. It takes a fair bit of pressure from underneath and sometimes outside as well to make the leadership change opinions.
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Jun 4, 2023 19:00:47 GMT
Umm... no? Last I checked, Judaism is still alive and well IOTL, despite Christianity having split off long ago. Rather, my meaning is that Judaism as we know it is completely butterflied by keeping the Canaanites' polytheistic tendencies going somehow. Not what I meant. Father, Son, Holy Ghost; plus a whole pantheon of "saints" and other "overlays" were grafted onto Judaism and common descended from it. I tend to treat Islam very much the same way, with "magical prophets", djinns, efrets and, and of course the residual animism. The big three "monotheisms" actually are one monotheism and two polytheistic offshoots. Look, could you put aside the off-topic nitpicking and please just answer my question in the spirit in which it was asked? If not, then maybe I should just disengage here and let others have a crack at outlining what ATL in which Judaism (and thus, all subsequent Abrahamic faiths) is butterflied by the Canaanites remaining polytheistic. Gets a bit tiring when you derail with your usual fixations and feel need to correct everyone without once answering my actual question, really. 🙄
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miletus12
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Post by miletus12 on Jun 4, 2023 19:11:02 GMT
Look, could you put aside the off-topic nitpicking and please just answer my question in the spirit in which it was asked? If you want to know what I found in Iraq and what I thought about it, that is either a PM or it will involve some really NASTY things I would have to write about some of the "tribes" to describe what is going on inside there. The short version is that the idiots, we tagged as the new "democratic core" in and around Baghdad sold us out for a pig in a poke. Half of them were and are working for the Iranians, the other half wanted to restore the Bath'ist regime, and all of them wanted to exterminate the Marsh Arabs and the Kurds. THAT is the post Saddam Iraq, you would have gotten, if we still did not have a strong Kurdish mission in country. The Kurds were the only people we could trust, and then only when their agendas coincided with ours. Does that answer your question?
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Jun 4, 2023 19:18:30 GMT
Look, could you put aside the off-topic nitpicking and please just answer my question in the spirit in which it was asked? If you want to know what I found in Iraq and what I thought about it, that is either a PM or it will involve some really NASTY things I would have to write about some of the "tribes" to describe what is going on inside there. The short version is that the idiots, we tagged as the new "democratic core" in and around Baghdad sold us out for a pig in a poke. Half of them were and are working for the Iranians, the other half wanted to restore the Bath'ist regime, and all of them wanted to exterminate the Marsh Arabs and the Kurds. THAT is the post Saddam Iraq, you would have gotten, if we still did not have a strong Kurdish mission in country. The Kurds were the only people we could trust, and then only when their agendas coincided with ours. Does that answer your question? Actually, it doesn’t. For one, you posted in the Before 1900 thread, when I asked the question you’re trying to answer now in the After 1990. Will assume that’s an innocuous mistake rather than yet another derail, so I’m willing to give you the benefit of the doubt there. However… it’s also true that I (and others) have politely tried to ask you for clarification and to stay on topic multiple times. Even when I’ve tried spelling it out while still trying to remain civil, the message just doesn’t seem to go through. Frankly, I’ve come to the conclusion that you’re simply not listening, which makes it pointless to engage with you any further. That in mind, I suggest we end this here and stay out of each others’ way from now on — because I’ve just about had enough of this. Good day, and best of luck with your future pursuits.
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miletus12
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Post by miletus12 on Jun 4, 2023 19:55:58 GMT
If you want to know what I found in Iraq and what I thought about it, that is either a PM or it will involve some really NASTY things I would have to write about some of the "tribes" to describe what is going on inside there. The short version is that the idiots, we tagged as the new "democratic core" in and around Baghdad sold us out for a pig in a poke. Half of them were and are working for the Iranians, the other half wanted to restore the Bath'ist regime, and all of them wanted to exterminate the Marsh Arabs and the Kurds. THAT is the post Saddam Iraq, you would have gotten, if we still did not have a strong Kurdish mission in country. The Kurds were the only people we could trust, and then only when their agendas coincided with ours. Does that answer your question? Actually, it doesn’t. For one, you posted in the Before 1900 thread, when I asked the question you’re trying to answer now in the After 1990. Will assume that’s an innocuous mistake rather than yet another derail, so I’m willing to give you the benefit of the doubt there. However… it’s also true that I (and others) have politely tried to ask you for clarification and to stay on topic multiple times. Even when I’ve tried spelling it out while still trying to remain civil, the message just doesn’t seem to go through. Frankly, I’ve come to the conclusion that you’re simply not listening, which makes it pointless to engage with you any further. That in mind, I suggest we end this here and stay out of each others’ way from now on — because I’ve just about had enough of this. Good day, and best of luck with your future pursuits. Noted and apologies. Judaism has historically been resistant to complexification, though not to schism. It is a legalistic and rules centered system of beliefs, which maintains a core sense of values which was actually codified about 100 years before Jesus of Nazareth appeared. It has structurally actually very little to do with the Canaanite polytheistic religions that were in region, before it "appeared". If you want to know where I think Judaism got its monotheistic strain, I think it was from the Egyptian civil war which Akhnaton and his successors lost. There is a case for Moses being one of the losers in that civil war. His followers and he might have fled Egypt, which would explain the WEIRD books of the Pentatuch finally codified in the 1st century BC and handed down today. I mean, when you read those books, the emphasis on ritual and spelling it out to minute rigid ridiculous detail and the insistent non-flexible non-deviating proscriptions, read like a group stubbornly and rigidly refusing to accept any change in ritual practice whatsoever. and under threat from new recent strains of belief at about the time of the Maccabees, so they write it down in a codex as much as a story history. With that in mind, you do have the 1st century schism which results in Christianity, which embraces complexification, so that the system can assign divinity to Jesus of Nazareth. How many persons can you split god into? Apparently three persons, so that gives me the basis for three gods and then you get angels and sainta and, well you know. It is polytheism. It has to be. That is your monotheism evolving away from the original simplicity into something unrecognizable. That is what I drove at when i answered the original question.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jun 5, 2023 16:51:53 GMT
Not what I meant. Father, Son, Holy Ghost; plus a whole pantheon of "saints" and other "overlays" were grafted onto Judaism and common descended from it. I tend to treat Islam very much the same way, with "magical prophets", djinns, efrets and, and of course the residual animism. The big three "monotheisms" actually are one monotheism and two polytheistic offshoots. Look, could you put aside the off-topic nitpicking and please just answer my question in the spirit in which it was asked? If not, then maybe I should just disengage here and let others have a crack at outlining what ATL in which Judaism (and thus, all subsequent Abrahamic faiths) is butterflied by the Canaanites remaining polytheistic. Gets a bit tiring when you derail with your usual fixations and feel need to correct everyone without once answering my actual question, really. 🙄
Apologies as partly my fault as well for misunderstanding what miletus12 was saying which diverted things.
Getting back on topic the question is whether monotheism emerges elsewhere and doesn't get stamped on fairly quickly as Akhnaton's 'reforms' did. If so where and when and how successful does it become. There are arguments that Christianity was born during the early Roman empire as it gave both a political system - with a 'universal state' great empire that fitted in with its theological ideas - and also a level of tolerance and also a vast area to spread across that enabled its fairly rapid spread to multiple areas.
If it does emerge then a lot depends on where and when.
If it doesn't the world is still radically different from anything we're familiar with today. In ways we probably can't even begin to imagine I suspect.
Steve
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Post by Otto Kretschmer on Jun 8, 2023 4:55:31 GMT
AHC/WI: China modernizes successfully in 19th century
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575
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Post by 575 on Jun 10, 2023 10:46:21 GMT
Actually, it doesn’t. For one, you posted in the Before 1900 thread, when I asked the question you’re trying to answer now in the After 1990. Will assume that’s an innocuous mistake rather than yet another derail, so I’m willing to give you the benefit of the doubt there. However… it’s also true that I (and others) have politely tried to ask you for clarification and to stay on topic multiple times. Even when I’ve tried spelling it out while still trying to remain civil, the message just doesn’t seem to go through. Frankly, I’ve come to the conclusion that you’re simply not listening, which makes it pointless to engage with you any further. That in mind, I suggest we end this here and stay out of each others’ way from now on — because I’ve just about had enough of this. Good day, and best of luck with your future pursuits. Noted and apologies. Judaism has historically been resistant to complexification, though not to schism. It is a legalistic and rules centered system of beliefs, which maintains a core sense of values which was actually codified about 100 years before Jesus of Nazareth appeared. It has structurally actually very little to do with the Canaanite polytheistic religions that were in region, before it "appeared". If you want to know where I think Judaism got its monotheistic strain, I think it was from the Egyptian civil war which Akhnaton and his successors lost. There is a case for Moses being one of the losers in that civil war. His followers and he might have fled Egypt, which would explain the WEIRD books of the Pentatuch finally codified in the 1st century BC and handed down today. I mean, when you read those books, the emphasis on ritual and spelling it out to minute rigid ridiculous detail and the insistent non-flexible non-deviating proscriptions, read like a group stubbornly and rigidly refusing to accept any change in ritual practice whatsoever. and under threat from new recent strains of belief at about the time of the Maccabees, so they write it down in a codex as much as a story history. With that in mind, you do have the 1st century schism which results in Christianity, which embraces complexification, so that the system can assign divinity to Jesus of Nazareth. How many persons can you split god into? Apparently three persons, so that gives me the basis for three gods and then you get angels and sainta and, well you know. It is polytheism. It has to be. That is your monotheism evolving away from the original simplicity into something unrecognizable. That is what I drove at when i answered the original question. Like claimed by Danish writer Ove v Spaeth - Website here for those interested though the books is downloadable it in Danish only. Shied by scholars (of course) but some retired are infavour of his work.
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Post by diamondstorm on Jun 12, 2023 4:21:39 GMT
This is a separate question, but what would it take for Massachusetts to not ratify the Constitution (it the first state to have major opposition to ratification after the first five states did so with little issue)? More specifically, I mean what would it take to have the nine proposed amendments to the Constitution recommended by John Hancock to be changed, reduced, or eliminated?
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Jun 12, 2023 19:36:31 GMT
‘Thomas Jefferson Wins The 1796 Presidential Election’.
And thus, succeeds Washington as the 2nd President instead of the 3rd (right after John Adams over in IOTL).
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miletus12
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Post by miletus12 on Jun 12, 2023 21:34:57 GMT
This is a separate question, but what would it take for Massachusetts to not ratify the Constitution (it the first state to have major opposition to ratification after the first five states did so with little issue)? More specifically, I mean what would it take to have the nine proposed amendments to the Constitution recommended by John Hancock to be changed, reduced, or eliminated? Get him rip-roaring drunk.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jun 14, 2023 8:43:02 GMT
There was a suggestion, I think it was on this thread, that a fleet from Mali reached the Americas before Columbus. This article from bigthink is distinctly doubtful on the idea. Also given the reported size of the fleet, some 2,000 ships that also sounds off.
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Jun 17, 2023 15:43:33 GMT
‘AHC: Phoenician Empire’.
No, Carthage doesn’t count, though otherwise, it can still be plenty decentralized and trade-oriented.
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