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Post by halferking on Oct 28, 2023 1:04:19 GMT
I see. Sorry if I have to throw in another England based scenario. PC: How Would an English version of the French Wars of Religion play out? It's surprising that England nearly degenerated into a religious conflict, given the religious divide between Anglicans, Catholics, and other Protestant factions. Although the Gunpowder Plot would not really trigger such a violent civil war, given the divided loyalties of English Catholics. Could an English version of the French Wars of Religion be far worse than the Wars of Roses in terms of casualties? Would this result in England either embracing the Counter-Reformation or going full blown Protestant of the radical kind? I could either see this with Henry VIII having a surviving son from his marriage to Anne Boleyn, with that son being educated by Protestant radical preachers, but I could also see a Queen Mary that has married another Catholic monarch going the opposite direction. The Henrician reformation was in its infancy when Henry VIII married Anne Boleyn so a son would be raised in the New Faith, but I doubt that he would have been ‘radicalised’ as there was some confusion among the Clergy as to which practices of the Old Faith, Catholicism, had been abolished and which had not. Edward VI had Parliament pass the Act of Uniformity in 1549 establishing a Common Prayer Book, which brought some clarity to the wording of prayers and order of services that replaced Catholic practices. Mary I instigated a counter reformation, but this met with limited success. The people were supportive of Mary, some of the Protestant reformers had fled to Europe and Protestantism was relatively new compared to the centuries of Catholicism. For every positive there were the negatives, and these factors began to weigh heavy on the Marian counter-reformation causing it to falter. Mary I marriage to Philip II of Spain was a disaster – the loss of Calais – was seen by her subjects, who had suffered from the burdensome taxes to pay for the war against France, as a foolish endeavour that only benefited Spain. Religious conflict in England was rather messy. The Pilgrimage of Grace, a rebellion against Henry VIII in the north of England, was in part ignited by the dissolution of the monasteries and the economic problems – high taxes and rising poverty. |
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Oct 28, 2023 3:59:58 GMT
I see. Sorry if I have to throw in another England based scenario. PC: How Would an English version of the French Wars of Religion play out? It's surprising that England nearly degenerated into a religious conflict, given the religious divide between Anglicans, Catholics, and other Protestant factions. Although the Gunpowder Plot would not really trigger such a violent civil war, given the divided loyalties of English Catholics. Could an English version of the French Wars of Religion be far worse than the Wars of Roses in terms of casualties? Would this result in England either embracing the Counter-Reformation or going full blown Protestant of the radical kind? I could either see this with Henry VIII having a surviving son from his marriage to Anne Boleyn, with that son being educated by Protestant radical preachers, but I could also see a Queen Mary that has married another Catholic monarch going the opposite direction. The Henrician reformation was in its infancy when Henry VIII married Anne Boleyn so a son would be raised in the New Faith, but I doubt that he would have been ‘radicalised’ as there was some confusion among the Clergy as to which practices of the Old Faith, Catholicism, had been abolished and which had not. Edward VI had Parliament pass the Act of Uniformity in 1549 establishing a Common Prayer Book, which brought some clarity to the wording of prayers and order of services that replaced Catholic practices. Mary I instigated a counter reformation, but this met with limited success. The people were supportive of Mary, some of the Protestant reformers had fled to Europe and Protestantism was relatively new compared to the centuries of Catholicism. For every positive there were the negatives, and these factors began to weigh heavy on the Marian counter-reformation causing it to falter. Mary I marriage to Philip II of Spain was a disaster – the loss of Calais – was seen by her subjects, who had suffered from the burdensome taxes to pay for the war against France, as a foolish endeavour that only benefited Spain. Religious conflict in England was rather messy. The Pilgrimage of Grace, a rebellion against Henry VIII in the north of England, was in part ignited by the dissolution of the monasteries and the economic problems – high taxes and rising poverty. I'm not exactly sure if having a different husband for Bloody Mary would have resulted in a bit more successful Counter-Reformation. Given that northern England had been more on the Catholic side when they rebelled against Henry VIII, I would suspect that kind of rebellion would only be successful in keeping England within the Catholic camp. How would England remaining Catholic actually affect its culture? Additionally, would England remaining Catholic actually result, ironically enough, in Ireland going Protestant as a means of keeping their national and ethnic identity intact? |
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Post by halferking on Oct 28, 2023 11:32:08 GMT
The Henrician reformation was in its infancy when Henry VIII married Anne Boleyn so a son would be raised in the New Faith, but I doubt that he would have been ‘radicalised’ as there was some confusion among the Clergy as to which practices of the Old Faith, Catholicism, had been abolished and which had not. Edward VI had Parliament pass the Act of Uniformity in 1549 establishing a Common Prayer Book, which brought some clarity to the wording of prayers and order of services that replaced Catholic practices. Mary I instigated a counter reformation, but this met with limited success. The people were supportive of Mary, some of the Protestant reformers had fled to Europe and Protestantism was relatively new compared to the centuries of Catholicism. For every positive there were the negatives, and these factors began to weigh heavy on the Marian counter-reformation causing it to falter. Mary I marriage to Philip II of Spain was a disaster – the loss of Calais – was seen by her subjects, who had suffered from the burdensome taxes to pay for the war against France, as a foolish endeavour that only benefited Spain. Religious conflict in England was rather messy. The Pilgrimage of Grace, a rebellion against Henry VIII in the north of England, was in part ignited by the dissolution of the monasteries and the economic problems – high taxes and rising poverty. I'm not exactly sure if having a different husband for Bloody Mary would have resulted in a bit more successful Counter-Reformation. Given that northern England had been more on the Catholic side when they rebelled against Henry VIII, I would suspect that kind of rebellion would only be successful in keeping England within the Catholic camp. How would England remaining Catholic actually affect its culture? Additionally, would England remaining Catholic actually result, ironically enough, in Ireland going Protestant as a means of keeping their national and ethnic identity intact?
The Pilgrimage of Grace didn’t seek to overthrow Henry VIII, but it was seen as a challenge to his authority. A successful rebellion may have led Henry VIII to become more tolerant towards Catholics.
England would resemble Catholic countries on the continent. I think Ireland would remain Catholic.
Mary I problem was - no heir - she had no one to carry on her counter reformation after she had gone.
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Oct 28, 2023 15:05:11 GMT
Did Mary had some fertility problems though? Phantom or false pregnancy was probably a thing, and also the age gap between Mary and Philip of Spain is rather huge though. Moreover, I'm not sure what age Mary was when she had her false pregnancy. One of the Portuguese candidates could have been a better match for Mary than Philip II of Spain, like I don't know, Prince Henry of Portugal or Prince Duarte. I sensed that having Mary wed one of the Portuguese princes instead of Philip II of Spain would have prevented England from aiding the Dutch rebels.
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Post by diamondstorm on Oct 31, 2023 3:08:03 GMT
What would be the most likely fate for Tennessee and Kentucky in a scenario where the US collapses due to internal issues in the 1780s or 1790s? Would it be possible to not be absorbed completely by bigger states (by that I mean being granted some form of autonomy whether as a separate region, state, etc)?
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Post by halferking on Nov 2, 2023 22:14:17 GMT
Did Mary had some fertility problems though? Phantom or false pregnancy was probably a thing, and also the age gap between Mary and Philip of Spain is rather huge though. Moreover, I'm not sure what age Mary was when she had her false pregnancy. One of the Portuguese candidates could have been a better match for Mary than Philip II of Spain, like I don't know, Prince Henry of Portugal or Prince Duarte. I sensed that having Mary wed one of the Portuguese princes instead of Philip II of Spain would have prevented England from aiding the Dutch rebels.
Mary had two phantom pregnancies. The first happened shortly after she married Philip II. The union was politically motivated – those concerned hoped that the union would serve as a counterbalance to the rise of Protestantism on the Continent. The union was also predicated on the birth of a Catholic heir to the English Throne. Mary's marriage was designed to reestablish Catholicism in England.
Mary exhibited all the signs of pregnancy – morning sickness and a swelling abdomen. The public were happy for Mary. However, as time went on and Mary’s due date came and went rumours started and the public became sceptical and questioned the legitimacy of the birth. The lack of a baby put strain on the union. At the time no one knew why phantom pregnancies happened, so it was put down to either divine intervention or witchcraft.
For Mary – although she was never pregnant – she nonetheless grieved for her lost child and the added humiliation of her intimate medical issues were talk of the Court. A woman’s, Queen or not, worth was in being able to conceive, carry to full term and produce and heir - a boy – took a huge toll on her.
In 1557, three years after the first phantom pregnancy, Mary again announced that she was pregnant and indeed the Queen showed all the signs of pregnancy. This time the Court and the Courts in Europe were sceptical. Mary was increasingly becoming unpopular. She was older and therefore her chances to conceive again were practically zero. Her husband, Philip, spent more and more time away from England and this put a further strain on Mary. Like the first phantom pregnancy this too, sadly, was not meant to be.
With the onerous task of ruling over a divided Kingdom, a failed marriage and two phantom pregnancies Mary’s health, physically and mentally, rapidly declined.
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Nov 2, 2023 23:07:00 GMT
Given the opponents of Mary and their opposition to a marital union between her and Philip II of Spain, I would guess witchcraft being the primary cause, although phantom pregnancy is an actual thing.
If she had an earlier marriage, most likely to the Portuguese candidates that I mentioned earlier, then she would have had a healthy, albeit legit, pregnancy. Let's not forget that she's 11 years older than Philip II. That might have played a role in why she had trouble conceiving. She was 38 when she got married, and pregnancy is a lot harder in the mid to late 30s, so that might also be the reason why her pregnancy was hard.
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stevep
Fleet admiral
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Post by stevep on Nov 3, 2023 11:21:58 GMT
Given the opponents of Mary and their opposition to a marital union between her and Philip II of Spain, I would guess witchcraft being the primary cause, although phantom pregnancy is an actual thing. If she had an earlier marriage, most likely to the Portuguese candidates that I mentioned earlier, then she would have had a healthy, albeit legit, pregnancy. Let's not forget that she's 11 years older than Philip II. That might have played a role in why she had trouble conceiving. She was 38 when she got married, and pregnancy is a lot harder in the mid to late 30s, so that might also be the reason why her pregnancy was hard.
I wouldn't say its certain she would have a child with an earlier marriage as there could be other problems but definitely there would be a better chance. That does assume that she's allowed to marry and as an ardent Catholic that would pose a threat to Henry VIII's 'reforms' she's unlikely to have permission to marry under Henry's rule, or that of his ardent Protestant son so the chances of her being allowed to marry a Catholic royal figure, or even a Catholic noble inside England would seem unlikely.
Looking at her wiki entry I can't see any reference to a marriage proposal with a Portuguese candidate. There were a couple of proposals of marriage to Protestant figures but I doubt she would have accepted such an idea.
I could see some hard line Catholics, especially given feelings at the time arguing witch craft was involved in her failed pregnancy.  |
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Post by Otto Kretschmer on Nov 11, 2023 10:53:10 GMT
AHC: Native Americans discover Europe before 1000 AD.
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Post by Max Sinister on Nov 11, 2023 18:54:39 GMT
AHC: Native Americans discover Europe before 1000 AD. Which ones? |
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Post by Otto Kretschmer on Nov 11, 2023 18:56:02 GMT
AHC: Native Americans discover Europe before 1000 AD. Which ones? It doesn't matter. |
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Zyobot
Fleet admiral
Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
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Post by Zyobot on Nov 15, 2023 5:34:29 GMT
'AHC: President Alexander Hamilton'.
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Post by Otto Kretschmer on Nov 15, 2023 19:06:06 GMT
WI: no Habsburgs
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Post by Max Sinister on Nov 15, 2023 22:20:19 GMT
Since when? Medieval ages? Maria Theres(i)a stillborn?
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Post by Otto Kretschmer on Nov 16, 2023 1:47:49 GMT
Since when? Medieval ages? Maria Theres(i)a stillborn?
The amiddle Ages. Rudolf I Habsburg is born a girl or not born at all. |
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