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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Oct 9, 2023 8:42:05 GMT
I was angling for Harald Hardrada to become the new Lord of whichever land the Byzantines give to him, and then establish his own noble line that would eventually become powerful in its own right, similar to Rollo. A hybrid Greek speaking Norse/Germanic people that intermarried with the local Greek women would form their own kind of culture, similar to the Normans.
Ah with you now. I suspect he wouldn't be interested because he would want to return to Norway and claim the throne there as he did. However possibly some other group from the guard might. I know that after 1066 a lot of English fled the Normans and there are suggestions that some, aided by the empire formed a state somewhere in the Crimean area I believe although I'm not aware of any evidence of that.
I did make a flag of what this Greco-Varangian state would look like, and I ended up choosing some random Varangian warlord to become the Byzantine ‘Rollo’, although the Greco-Varangian duchy in southern Greece would be more oriented towards trade and raiding with Egypt and the Levantine. If they were lucky, other members of the Varangian Guard would be motivated to form their own Greco-Varangian entities in areas that would be reconquered from the Muslims. For example, we could have a Greco-Varangian warlord that takes over Cyprus and uses it as a base of operations from which the Byzantines can conquer the Levant. |
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575
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Post by 575 on Oct 9, 2023 9:14:51 GMT
I was angling for Harald Hardrada to become the new Lord of whichever land the Byzantines give to him, and then establish his own noble line that would eventually become powerful in its own right, similar to Rollo. A hybrid Greek speaking Norse/Germanic people that intermarried with the local Greek women would form their own kind of culture, similar to the Normans.
Ah with you now. I suspect he wouldn't be interested because he would want to return to Norway and claim the throne there as he did. However possibly some other group from the guard might. I know that after 1066 a lot of English fled the Normans and there are suggestions that some, aided by the empire formed a state somewhere in the Crimean area I believe although I'm not aware of any evidence of that.
Read that recently too but haven't been able to find it again.
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Post by Otto Kretschmer on Oct 12, 2023 10:45:03 GMT
WI: the Danes win the battle of Edington.
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Post by halferking on Oct 12, 2023 18:34:33 GMT
What if Philippa, daugh. of Lionel of Antwerp, Duke of Clarence, dies in childbirth and Philippa and Edmund's son Richard dies in infancy...
Who would Richard Earl of Cambridge marry?
Well the Earl of Cambridge could marry some random Aragonese or another Castilian noble woman, or secure a Burgundian marital tie. Alternatively, how about Margaret Paleologa? She married Peter II of Urgell IOTL, but I'm not sure if an Italian match (albeit descended from the Byzantine dynasty) would be prestigious for the Earl of Cambridge? How would that affect the line of succession? Richard, Duke of York sons were Edward IV and Richard III... |
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Oct 13, 2023 1:10:25 GMT
Well the Earl of Cambridge could marry some random Aragonese or another Castilian noble woman, or secure a Burgundian marital tie. Alternatively, how about Margaret Paleologa? She married Peter II of Urgell IOTL, but I'm not sure if an Italian match (albeit descended from the Byzantine dynasty) would be prestigious for the Earl of Cambridge? How would that affect the line of succession? Richard, Duke of York sons were Edward IV and Richard III... You were asking about the Earl of Cambridge, not the 3rd Duke of York. Although I am a bit intrigued about a different marital match for the 3rd Duke of York though. Would his cousin Henry VI allow him to marry a daughter of a powerful foreign noble? |
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Post by halferking on Oct 14, 2023 11:11:49 GMT
How would that affect the line of succession? Richard, Duke of York sons were Edward IV and Richard III... You were asking about the Earl of Cambridge, not the 3rd Duke of York. Although I am a bit intrigued about a different marital match for the 3rd Duke of York though. Would his cousin Henry VI allow him to marry a daughter of a powerful foreign noble?
Anne Mortimer and Roger, 3rd Earl of Cambridge, son was Richard, 3rd Duke of York...
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Oct 16, 2023 2:16:56 GMT
You were asking about the Earl of Cambridge, not the 3rd Duke of York. Although I am a bit intrigued about a different marital match for the 3rd Duke of York though. Would his cousin Henry VI allow him to marry a daughter of a powerful foreign noble?
Anne Mortimer and Roger, 3rd Earl of Cambridge, son was Richard, 3rd Duke of York...
The original question was who will Richard, Earl of Cambridge, marry. I was confused at the question first. Other than that, wasn't the deposed king that was overthrown by Isabella and the OG Roger Mortimer the father of the Black Prince? |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Oct 18, 2023 17:32:19 GMT
Anne Mortimer and Roger, 3rd Earl of Cambridge, son was Richard, 3rd Duke of York...
The original question was who will Richard, Earl of Cambridge, marry. I was confused at the question first. Other than that, wasn't the deposed king that was overthrown by Isabella and the OG Roger Mortimer the father of the Black Prince?
No that was Edward II, who seems to have been weak and ineffective with also suggestions about his sexularity. It was his son Edward III who was the father of the Black Prince. Edward III managed to overthrow the power of his mother and Mortimer. At least in OTL.
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Oct 18, 2023 20:04:09 GMT
The original question was who will Richard, Earl of Cambridge, marry. I was confused at the question first. Other than that, wasn't the deposed king that was overthrown by Isabella and the OG Roger Mortimer the father of the Black Prince?
No that was Edward II, who seems to have been weak and ineffective with also suggestions about his sexularity. It was his son Edward III who was the father of the Black Prince. Edward III managed to overthrow the power of his mother and Mortimer. At least in OTL.
I was kinda confused about which King Edward was whose father of the Black Prince. |
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Post by halferking on Oct 19, 2023 0:08:27 GMT
Anne Mortimer and Roger, 3rd Earl of Cambridge, son was Richard, 3rd Duke of York...
The original question was who will Richard, Earl of Cambridge, marry. I was confused at the question first. Other than that, wasn't the deposed king that was overthrown by Isabella and the OG Roger Mortimer the father of the Black Prince? Edward II is the Black Prince's grandfather. ![]()  |
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Oct 21, 2023 17:33:38 GMT
I see. Sorry if I have to throw in another England based scenario.
PC: How Would an English version of the French Wars of Religion play out?
It's surprising that England nearly degenerated into a religious conflict, given the religious divide between Anglicans, Catholics, and other Protestant factions. Although the Gunpowder Plot would not really trigger such a violent civil war, given the divided loyalties of English Catholics.
Could an English version of the French Wars of Religion be far worse than the Wars of Roses in terms of casualties? Would this result in England either embracing the Counter-Reformation or going full blown Protestant of the radical kind? I could either see this with Henry VIII having a surviving son from his marriage to Anne Boleyn, with that son being educated by Protestant radical preachers, but I could also see a Queen Mary that has married another Catholic monarch going the opposite direction.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Oct 21, 2023 17:48:19 GMT
I see. Sorry if I have to throw in another England based scenario. PC: How Would an English version of the French Wars of Religion play out? It's surprising that England nearly degenerated into a religious conflict, given the religious divide between Anglicans, Catholics, and other Protestant factions. Although the Gunpowder Plot would not really trigger such a violent civil war, given the divided loyalties of English Catholics. Could an English version of the French Wars of Religion be far worse than the Wars of Roses in terms of casualties? Would this result in England either embracing the Counter-Reformation or going full blown Protestant of the radical kind? I could either see this with Henry VIII having a surviving son from his marriage to Anne Boleyn, with that son being educated by Protestant radical preachers, but I could also see a Queen Mary that has married another Catholic monarch going the opposite direction.
Well to a degree there was a religious context in the ECW [English Civil War], as well as the parallel conflicts in Scotland and Ireland.
However if say Henry VIII had a son by Anne who was young enough that he needed a regent when Edward died then you might see some Catholic figures seeking to declare Mary as Queen in his place - as Protestants did with Lady Jane Grey to try and prevent Mary becoming queen OTL. Or possibly as Regent with the idea she would restore Catholicism during the boy's minority. This could make for a possibly very nasty conflict. Especially if there was foreign intervention on Mary's behalf.
It was probably too late after Elizabeth's reign although Charles I did have a Catholic queen and both his son's at least dabbled with Catholicism, in part to try and circumvent the power of Parliament. However while there was some sympathy for royal absolutism and also Catholicism in a number of areas Protestantism and supporting interests, especially in terms of restricting royal power for this to really succeed I think it would need substantial foreign aid for the Catholic faction by this stage.
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Oct 21, 2023 18:33:02 GMT
I see. Sorry if I have to throw in another England based scenario. PC: How Would an English version of the French Wars of Religion play out? It's surprising that England nearly degenerated into a religious conflict, given the religious divide between Anglicans, Catholics, and other Protestant factions. Although the Gunpowder Plot would not really trigger such a violent civil war, given the divided loyalties of English Catholics. Could an English version of the French Wars of Religion be far worse than the Wars of Roses in terms of casualties? Would this result in England either embracing the Counter-Reformation or going full blown Protestant of the radical kind? I could either see this with Henry VIII having a surviving son from his marriage to Anne Boleyn, with that son being educated by Protestant radical preachers, but I could also see a Queen Mary that has married another Catholic monarch going the opposite direction.
Well to a degree there was a religious context in the ECW [English Civil War], as well as the parallel conflicts in Scotland and Ireland.
However if say Henry VIII had a son by Anne who was young enough that he needed a regent when Edward died then you might see some Catholic figures seeking to declare Mary as Queen in his place - as Protestants did with Lady Jane Grey to try and prevent Mary becoming queen OTL. Or possibly as Regent with the idea she would restore Catholicism during the boy's minority. This could make for a possibly very nasty conflict. Especially if there was foreign intervention on Mary's behalf.
It was probably too late after Elizabeth's reign although Charles I did have a Catholic queen and both his son's at least dabbled with Catholicism, in part to try and circumvent the power of Parliament. However while there was some sympathy for royal absolutism and also Catholicism in a number of areas Protestantism and supporting interests, especially in terms of restricting royal power for this to really succeed I think it would need substantial foreign aid for the Catholic faction by this stage.
Which Edward? Given that the English equivalent of the French Wars of Religion would be nastier than the Wars of the Roses, plus it would be roughly 100 or more years after the Wars of the Roses ended, this might also affect England's own demographics as well. I'm guessing that the Catholic faction would rally around Bloody Mary and her Catholic husband while the Protestants would rally around Henry VIII's hypothetical son who would be raised as a Protestant. Basically Wars of the Roses Version Two, mixed in with whichever conflict involved Stephen of Blois and Empress Matilda. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Oct 21, 2023 21:09:17 GMT
Well to a degree there was a religious context in the ECW [English Civil War], as well as the parallel conflicts in Scotland and Ireland.
However if say Henry VIII had a son by Anne who was young enough that he needed a regent when Edward died then you might see some Catholic figures seeking to declare Mary as Queen in his place - as Protestants did with Lady Jane Grey to try and prevent Mary becoming queen OTL. Or possibly as Regent with the idea she would restore Catholicism during the boy's minority. This could make for a possibly very nasty conflict. Especially if there was foreign intervention on Mary's behalf.
It was probably too late after Elizabeth's reign although Charles I did have a Catholic queen and both his son's at least dabbled with Catholicism, in part to try and circumvent the power of Parliament. However while there was some sympathy for royal absolutism and also Catholicism in a number of areas Protestantism and supporting interests, especially in terms of restricting royal power for this to really succeed I think it would need substantial foreign aid for the Catholic faction by this stage.
Which Edward? Given that the English equivalent of the French Wars of Religion would be nastier than the Wars of the Roses, plus it would be roughly 100 or more years after the Wars of the Roses ended, this might also affect England's own demographics as well. I'm guessing that the Catholic faction would rally around Bloody Mary and her Catholic husband while the Protestants would rally around Henry VIII's hypothetical son who would be raised as a Protestant. Basically Wars of the Roses Version Two, mixed in with whichever conflict involved Stephen of Blois and Empress Matilda.
This Edward, Henry's only son who died at the age of 15.
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Oct 21, 2023 22:25:40 GMT
Which Edward? Given that the English equivalent of the French Wars of Religion would be nastier than the Wars of the Roses, plus it would be roughly 100 or more years after the Wars of the Roses ended, this might also affect England's own demographics as well. I'm guessing that the Catholic faction would rally around Bloody Mary and her Catholic husband while the Protestants would rally around Henry VIII's hypothetical son who would be raised as a Protestant. Basically Wars of the Roses Version Two, mixed in with whichever conflict involved Stephen of Blois and Empress Matilda.
This Edward, Henry's only son who died at the age of 15.
I see, though the hypothetical son that I wanted to refer to would have been one of the baby boys that could have survived Anne’s pregnancy in either 1534, 1535, or 1536. Alternatively, giving Anne a break between the birth of Elizabeth I and say, 1535, would have enabled her to remain healthy enough to give birth to a baby boy. In one of my old TLs from ah.com, one of those baby boys surviving his birth was one of the main PoDs that I went with in creating one of the most unlikely scenarios: marrying off Elizabeth Tudor to Ivan the Terrible. Now IOTL, this match was proposed, but ultimately rejected, because of the sheer distance between England and the Grand Duchy of Muscovy. With a healthy son, plus a growing sense of ties to the two nations (it is also worth noting that Muscovy Company was actually founded as a means of improving commercial ties between England and Muscovy while searching for a seaborne route to China), it might also be possible. Funnily enough, in that TL that I wrote, I named the surviving baby boy as Richard, though I’m not sure if Henry VIII would be willing to name any of his sons after his father’s predecessor who had Henry’s two uncles killed in the Tower) |
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