lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Oct 7, 2023 14:17:13 GMT
Nope, not these kind of post, use the words better ore not at all. AHC: Christian majority Middle East and North Africa by 1500-1800 AD with a PoD after 1000 AD Better? Better. |
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Post by Otto Kretschmer on Oct 7, 2023 14:18:31 GMT
AHC: Christian majority Middle East and North Africa by 1500-1800 AD with a PoD after 1000 AD Better? Better. What do you think happens of the Mongols convert to Christianity and become an ally of the crusaders? This might be one possible path to my goal. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Oct 7, 2023 14:19:19 GMT
What do you think happens of the Mongols convert to Christianity as nd become an ally of the crusaders? No idea. |
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575
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Post by 575 on Oct 7, 2023 15:05:42 GMT
Some of the Mongols were Christians. Think it was part of the Horde that sacked Baghdad 1258. If they should defeat the Mamluks You may have some of it.
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mspence
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Post by mspence on Oct 7, 2023 22:31:45 GMT
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Post by Max Sinister on Oct 8, 2023 1:13:42 GMT
Nope, not these kind of post, use the words better ore not at all. AHC: Christian majority Middle East and North Africa by 1500-1800 AD with a PoD after 1000 AD As long as Muslims aren't allowed to leave their faith, no matter what... some people have wondered about what'd happen if the Holy Sites were destroyed, but calling this "opening a can of worms" is putting it mildly. |
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Oct 8, 2023 2:30:50 GMT
Nope, not these kind of post, use the words better ore not at all. AHC: Christian majority Middle East and North Africa by 1500-1800 AD with a PoD after 1000 AD Better? An earlier Byzantine conquest of the Levant would give them a secure base from which they could retake Egypt in the long run, but would a Byzantine expansion into the Caucasus be also feasible in this case? Alternatively, a different kind of Byzantine reconquest in the 1040s and 1050s could also be achieved with a successful revolt of Giorgios Maniakes that would result in him awarding certain leaders of the Varangian Guard with land, from which they'd build a power base, a la Rollo and the foundation of Normandy. Or, the Khitans defeat the Mongols and absorbs them, resulting in a semi-Christian Khitan Horde (the guy who could have defeated Genghis Khan had a bad reputation for his treatment of Muslim majority cities from what I heard) |
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Post by Otto Kretschmer on Oct 8, 2023 9:58:15 GMT
WI: the 4th Crusade aimed at Muslims instead of Byzantium.
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575
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Post by 575 on Oct 8, 2023 10:17:30 GMT
WI: the 4th Crusade aimed at Muslims instead of Byzantium. If You'd read about it You'd know that was the initial purpose however things like economy got an issue and to pay the Venezians the Crusaders had to play their Mercenary Army capturing and sacking Byzantium to pay off debt.
Real question would be WI 4th Crusade goes off on schedule.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Oct 8, 2023 13:06:57 GMT
AHC: Christian majority Middle East and North Africa by 1500-1800 AD with a PoD after 1000 AD As long as Muslims aren't allowed to leave their faith, no matter what... some people have wondered about what'd happen if the Holy Sites were destroyed, but calling this "opening a can of worms" is putting it mildly. I suspect that Christianity at that date was also bitterly hostile to apostasy, at least in areas in had power. Its not impossible to have Muslims convert but they do need protection against persecution and also incentives. Not just in the east but also in places like Spain and Sicily where Christianity regained power after centuries of Muslim rule. Yes there was persecution at times and also some Muslims fleeing Christian rule but I suspect a lot of people decided on at least a token conversion which a generation or two down the line would have been real. Similarly when there were the mass expulsions of Greeks from Anatolia after 1922 it was actually a religious division with Turkish speaking Christians expelled and Greek speaking Muslims allowed to stay - although of course being pressed to convert their language to Turkish.
Possibly if the Christians had copied the Muslims. In areas with a significant Muslim population their denied the right to carry arms but pay an extra tax instead - as this also means they can't be used for military service - and largely denied access to high positions in the government. Your likely to have some revolts but if you manage to crush them, possibly with some brutality to the actual groups involved but tolerance towards others it should work. Provided you can hold the region for a few generations of course.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Oct 8, 2023 13:17:31 GMT
AHC: Christian majority Middle East and North Africa by 1500-1800 AD with a PoD after 1000 AD Better? An earlier Byzantine conquest of the Levant would give them a secure base from which they could retake Egypt in the long run, but would a Byzantine expansion into the Caucasus be also feasible in this case? Alternatively, a different kind of Byzantine reconquest in the 1040s and 1050s could also be achieved with a successful revolt of Giorgios Maniakes that would result in him awarding certain leaders of the Varangian Guard with land, from which they'd build a power base, a la Rollo and the foundation of Normandy. Or, the Khitans defeat the Mongols and absorbs them, resulting in a semi-Christian Khitan Horde (the guy who could have defeated Genghis Khan had a bad reputation for his treatment of Muslim majority cities from what I heard)
I have read the suggestion that Basil II could have taken Baghdad in the late 10thC/early 11th if he hadn't had to concentrate on the Bulgarian kingdom - or perhaps had been a better general and been able to defeat them quickly.
Also toyed with the idea of an emperor Maniakes managing to reform the empire. However not sure any Normans were ever in imperial service at that point. Not to mention its way too late for Rollo who died between 928 and 933. Maniakes had been fighting the Normans in S Italy IIRC when he was driven to revolt. Are you thinking of Harald Hardrada who while in exile from Norway was the commander of the Varangian guard for a while about this time? - Although checking on Maniakes's history he was actually fighting the Muslims in Sicily and as well as units of the Varangian guard there were Norman and Lombard mercenaries in his forces at the time so Norman mercenaries could have served him later. Although the religious differences would have been a continuous issue while the Normans were generally less loyal than the Norsemen.
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575
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Post by 575 on Oct 8, 2023 18:12:59 GMT
stevep;
Varangian Guard however the Danish Version says the Guard continued untill the Fall of Constantinoble 1204 and possibly was reestablish by Empire of Nicea or the Palaiologos Emperors. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Oct 8, 2023 22:15:43 GMT
stevep;
Varangian Guard however the Danish Version says the Guard continued untill the Fall of Constantinoble 1204 and possibly was reestablish by Empire of Nicea or the Palaiologos Emperors.
Interesting thanks.  |
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Oct 8, 2023 23:58:58 GMT
stevep;
Varangian Guard however the Danish Version says the Guard continued untill the Fall of Constantinoble 1204 and possibly was reestablish by Empire of Nicea or the Palaiologos Emperors.
Interesting thanks. I was angling for Harald Hardrada to become the new Lord of whichever land the Byzantines give to him, and then establish his own noble line that would eventually become powerful in its own right, similar to Rollo. A hybrid Greek speaking Norse/Germanic people that intermarried with the local Greek women would form their own kind of culture, similar to the Normans. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Oct 9, 2023 8:27:14 GMT
Interesting thanks. I was angling for Harald Hardrada to become the new Lord of whichever land the Byzantines give to him, and then establish his own noble line that would eventually become powerful in its own right, similar to Rollo. A hybrid Greek speaking Norse/Germanic people that intermarried with the local Greek women would form their own kind of culture, similar to the Normans.
Ah with you now. I suspect he wouldn't be interested because he would want to return to Norway and claim the throne there as he did. However possibly some other group from the guard might. I know that after 1066 a lot of English fled the Normans and there are suggestions that some, aided by the empire formed a state somewhere in the Crimean area I believe although I'm not aware of any evidence of that.
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