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Post by Max Sinister on Oct 3, 2023 21:25:54 GMT
WI: no HRE What if the Hooy Roman Empire was never established? How would it impact German history? Fewer conflicts between the "Roman king" and the Pope, since he wouldn't depend on the pope to become crowned emperor?
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stevep
Fleet admiral
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Post by stevep on Oct 3, 2023 21:33:53 GMT
WI: no HRE What if the Hooy Roman Empire was never established? How would it impact German history? Fewer conflicts between the "Roman king" and the Pope, since he wouldn't depend on the pope to become crowned emperor?
It might also depend on why it wasn't established. OTL it required both Charlemagne establishing a strong state dominating France and much of OTL Germany and the Low Countries and then responding to a Papacy request for aid against the Lombards. If the former doesn't happen then at what point does Charlemagne 'fail'. Do the Lombards end up dominating central Italy - in which case what happens to the power of the Papacy? Does someone else aid it, such as the Greek empire getting its act together a bit earlier say and reasserting domination of much of central and southern Italy, which would have a lot of affects or what?
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575
Captain
There is no Purgatory for warcriminals - they go directly to Hell!
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Post by 575 on Oct 3, 2023 21:41:42 GMT
Fewer conflicts between the "Roman king" and the Pope, since he wouldn't depend on the pope to become crowned emperor?
It might also depend on why it wasn't established. OTL it required both Charlemagne establishing a strong state dominating France and much of OTL Germany and the Low Countries and then responding to a Papacy request for aid against the Lombards. If the former doesn't happen then at what point does Charlemagne 'fail'. Do the Lombards end up dominating central Italy - in which case what happens to the power of the Papacy? Does someone else aid it, such as the Greek empire getting its act together a bit earlier say and reasserting domination of much of central and southern Italy, which would have a lot of affects or what?
Or some of the infight of Charlemagnes grand-sons end up in the Imperial Title going to France, Lorraine, Lombardy, Burgundy or whatever just not Germany. |
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Post by halferking on Oct 4, 2023 19:44:06 GMT
Geez, it is like Margaret Beaufort was also a power hungry schemer in her own right. What's worse is that one of her uncles was the same Lord Somerset that emerged as the 3rd Duke of York's enemies. I did start an ambitious TL with a Wars of the Roses PoD, but I got no responses so far. I had this discussion with another poster in the PM about a different marriage prospect for Edward (who became Edward IV IOTL). It involves the 3rd Duke of York marrying his eldest son to an Elizabeth of Nevers, who's related to Charles the Bold.
Margaret Beaufort had a claim in her own right to the Throne of England as the descendant of Edward III. Her claim had several impediments though (1) she was a woman (2) her claim originated from John of Gaunt, Duke of Lancaster & Katherine Swynford and (3) she had no personal means to enforce said claim. That said she had one valuable asset – her son to Edmund Tudur – Harri. Through him she could ‘take’ the Throne. The marriage between her son, now Henry VII, and Elizabeth of York gave the Tudor claim legitimacy that perhaps it had been slightly lacking given Henry killed the last occupant and his mother’s claim wasn’t exactly the ‘gold standard’...
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Oct 4, 2023 20:21:59 GMT
And the Yorkist claim came from Lionel of Antwerp, right?
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Post by halferking on Oct 5, 2023 1:37:56 GMT
And the Yorkist claim came from Lionel of Antwerp, right?
The Yorkist claim comes from Edmund, 1st Duke of York. Edmund married Isabella of Castile, the daughter of King Peter of Castile, and they had two sons Edward 2nd Duke of York and Richard, Earl of Cambridge. Edward was married to Beatrice of Portugal, daughter of King Ferdinand I of Portugal, but that marriage was annulled. He then married Phillippa de Mohun, but they didn’t have children, so the claim to the Dukedom's title moved to Edward’s brother Richard's line. Richard married Anne Mortimer. The Mortimers were a powerful family - Anne’s grandfather was Edmund Mortimer, 3rd Earl of March and he married Philippa the daughter of Lionel of Antwerp, Duke of Clarence.
There was somewhat of a mini succession crisis before the main event. Edward ‘The Black Prince’ had a son Richard II. Richard II had no children so there was a question over which of Edward III sons would take the Crown. Richard II, however had other ideas and proclaimed Roger 4th Earl of March as his successor. Richard II was allegedly a tyrant and his Court riddled with factions in partcular one lead by Henry Bollingbroke, his cousin who history knows as Henry IV. Henry upsets the apple cart and seizes the Throne an act that put the middle finger up in the face of the natural order of thing - Primogenitor the eldest son of the eldest son blah blah blah i.e., Richard II was the son of the eldest son of Edward III. The last time that happened the Kingdom was thrown headlong in to 15 years of chaos known as The Anarchy. It's the uspurpation of Richard II that sows the seed of the Wars of the Roses. Henry IV, Henry V (Battle of Agincourt) and enter - Henry VI...
Richard II plan for his succession obviously didn't go to plan so Roger Mortimer, 4th Earl of March marries to Eleanor Holland instead and had a daughter – Anne Mortimer. Anne goes on to marry Richard, Earl of Cambridge, as previously mentioned, and their son Richard, 3rd Duke of York marries Cecily Neville, and they go on to have numerous children among them Edward IV and Richard III.
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Oct 5, 2023 6:01:47 GMT
And the Yorkist claim came from Lionel of Antwerp, right?
The Yorkist claim comes from Edmund, 1st Duke of York. Edmund married Isabella of Castile, the daughter of King Peter of Castile, and they had two sons Edward 2nd Duke of York and Richard, Earl of Cambridge. Edward was married to Beatrice of Portugal, daughter of King Ferdinand I of Portugal, but that marriage was annulled. He then married Phillippa de Mohun, but they didn’t have children, so the claim to the Dukedom's title moved to Edward’s brother Richard's line. Richard married Anne Mortimer. The Mortimers were a powerful family - Anne’s grandfather was Edmund Mortimer, 3rd Earl of March and he married Philippa the daughter of Lionel of Antwerp, Duke of Clarence.
There was somewhat of a mini succession crisis before the main event. Edward ‘The Black Prince’ had a son Richard II. Richard II had no children so there was a question over which of Edward III sons would take the Crown. Richard II, however had other ideas and proclaimed Roger 4th Earl of March as his successor. Richard II was allegedly a tyrant and his Court riddled with factions in partcular one lead by Henry Bollingbroke, his cousin who history knows as Henry IV. Henry upsets the apple cart and seizes the Throne an act that put the middle finger up in the face of the natural order of thing - Primogenitor the eldest son of the eldest son blah blah blah i.e., Richard II was the son of the eldest son of Edward III. The last time that happened the Kingdom was thrown headlong in to 15 years of chaos known as The Anarchy. It's the uspurpation of Richard II that sows the seed of the Wars of the Roses. Henry IV, Henry V (Battle of Agincourt) and enter - Henry VI...
Richard II plan for his succession obviously didn't go to plan so Roger Mortimer, 4th Earl of March marries to Eleanor Holland instead and had a daughter – Anne Mortimer. Anne goes on to marry Richard, Earl of Cambridge, as previously mentioned, and their son Richard, 3rd Duke of York marries Cecily Neville, and they go on to have numerous children among them Edward IV and Richard III.
Wouldn't that Mortimer be a descendant of the same Roger Mortimer who was taken as a lover by a Queen Isabella that hated that king who got either smothered on his bed or skewered in the butt? |
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Post by Otto Kretschmer on Oct 5, 2023 10:53:46 GMT
WI: Gustavus Adolphus born a girl.
Who takes over Sweden? What's the future of Sweden without it's great king?
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Post by halferking on Oct 6, 2023 16:39:38 GMT
The Yorkist claim comes from Edmund, 1st Duke of York. Edmund married Isabella of Castile, the daughter of King Peter of Castile, and they had two sons Edward 2nd Duke of York and Richard, Earl of Cambridge. Edward was married to Beatrice of Portugal, daughter of King Ferdinand I of Portugal, but that marriage was annulled. He then married Phillippa de Mohun, but they didn’t have children, so the claim to the Dukedom's title moved to Edward’s brother Richard's line. Richard married Anne Mortimer. The Mortimers were a powerful family - Anne’s grandfather was Edmund Mortimer, 3rd Earl of March and he married Philippa the daughter of Lionel of Antwerp, Duke of Clarence.
There was somewhat of a mini succession crisis before the main event. Edward ‘The Black Prince’ had a son Richard II. Richard II had no children so there was a question over which of Edward III sons would take the Crown. Richard II, however had other ideas and proclaimed Roger 4th Earl of March as his successor. Richard II was allegedly a tyrant and his Court riddled with factions in partcular one lead by Henry Bollingbroke, his cousin who history knows as Henry IV. Henry upsets the apple cart and seizes the Throne an act that put the middle finger up in the face of the natural order of thing - Primogenitor the eldest son of the eldest son blah blah blah i.e., Richard II was the son of the eldest son of Edward III. The last time that happened the Kingdom was thrown headlong in to 15 years of chaos known as The Anarchy. It's the uspurpation of Richard II that sows the seed of the Wars of the Roses. Henry IV, Henry V (Battle of Agincourt) and enter - Henry VI...
Richard II plan for his succession obviously didn't go to plan so Roger Mortimer, 4th Earl of March marries to Eleanor Holland instead and had a daughter – Anne Mortimer. Anne goes on to marry Richard, Earl of Cambridge, as previously mentioned, and their son Richard, 3rd Duke of York marries Cecily Neville, and they go on to have numerous children among them Edward IV and Richard III.
Wouldn't that Mortimer be a descendant of the same Roger Mortimer who was taken as a lover by a Queen Isabella that hated that king who got either smothered on his bed or skewered in the butt?
Yes. I believe Roger Mortimer; 4th Earl of March is the great-great grandson of Roger Mortimer 1st Earl of March. The 1st Earl and Queen Isabella imprisoned her husband, Edward II, at Berkley Castle.
The cause of death is unknown but there are at least two theories that gained traction – Edward was smothered to death with a pillow or suffered the ignominious death of a red-hot poker inserted into the rear fundament. Until the Treason Act 1351 was passed there wasn’t a clear definition of what constituted High Treason under Common Law. The 1351 Act did establish a particularly gruesome punishment: for men – hung, drawn and quartered and for women I believe being burned alive. The punishment had been dealt out before 1351 so I’m guessing that if there was foul play, then the murderer or murderers would not want to leave any trace of the heinous act lest they be drawn and quartered or burned alive.
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Post by halferking on Oct 6, 2023 17:28:25 GMT
WI: Gustavus Adolphus born a girl. Who takes over Sweden? What's the future of Sweden without it's great king?
The line of succession was established by the Estates of Sweden in 1544 that designated the sons of Gustav I Adolph to be the rightful heirs to the Throne of Sweden.
I’m not an expert on Swedish succession law, but If Gustav II Adolph had been born a girl, then as Gustav I Adolph sole living heir, she would inherit the Throne. In OTL Gustav II daughter Christina became Queen.
Queen Christina appears to have died without an heir, so the Throne passed to the offspring of Charles IX and Maria of Palatinate-Kleeberg's daughter Katarina and her son to Johan Casimir Charles X Gustav became King of Sweden for a bit.
As for what Sweden may have been like if Gustav had been a Queen really depends on what you think it might be like.
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Post by halferking on Oct 6, 2023 22:10:24 GMT
And the Yorkist claim came from Lionel of Antwerp, right?
What if Philippa, daugh. of Lionel of Antwerp, Duke of Clarence, dies in childbirth and Philippa and Edmund's son Richard dies in infancy...
Who would Richard Earl of Cambridge marry?
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Oct 7, 2023 3:17:08 GMT
And the Yorkist claim came from Lionel of Antwerp, right?
What if Philippa, daugh. of Lionel of Antwerp, Duke of Clarence, dies in childbirth and Philippa and Edmund's son Richard dies in infancy...
Who would Richard Earl of Cambridge marry?
Well the Earl of Cambridge could marry some random Aragonese or another Castilian noble woman, or secure a Burgundian marital tie. Alternatively, how about Margaret Paleologa? She married Peter II of Urgell IOTL, but I'm not sure if an Italian match (albeit descended from the Byzantine dynasty) would be prestigious for the Earl of Cambridge? |
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Post by Otto Kretschmer on Oct 7, 2023 14:10:34 GMT
AHC: Destroy Islam with a PoD after 1000 AD.
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lordroel
Administrator
Posts: 68,031
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Post by lordroel on Oct 7, 2023 14:13:17 GMT
AHC: Destroy Islam with a PoD after 1000 AD. |
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Post by Otto Kretschmer on Oct 7, 2023 14:14:47 GMT
AHC: Destroy Islam with a PoD after 1000 AD. AHC: Christian majority Middle East and North Africa by 1500-1800 AD with a PoD after 1000 AD Better? |
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