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Post by Otto Kretschmer on Jan 30, 2024 11:11:51 GMT
WI: Japan from 1930 ISOT to 1914, joins the Central Powers.
Japan invades and quickky seizes the Russian Far East and British/French colonies in Asia. Do the Central Powers win ww1?
575, stevep?
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575
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Post by 575 on Jan 30, 2024 12:28:26 GMT
WI: Japan from 1930 ISOT to 1914, joins the Central Powers. Japan invades and quickky seizes the Russian Far East and British/French colonies in Asia. Do the Central Powers win ww1? 575, stevep? I don't see your outline as an automatic.
Hamaguchi is still premier of Japan democratic elected and not assassinated till 14 Nov 1930. The immediate problem regarding Russia will be the Japanese Guandong Army in Manchuria but the Russians were defeated 1905. The Guandong Army had plans for a coup scheduled for March 1931 which - if they choose may be accelerated. Also they accelerate the Manchurian Incident but that was September 1931!
Japan have a strong Navy but it is a local one as a lookup of the composition of it - 1 Navy Oiler, 1 (Food)Supply Ship. Not much of a sustainment force should the Japanese decide to go abroad. However anybody going near Japan risk their lives. Japan did have 7 Oiler/tankers which were used to transport oil from USA to Japan to supply society - don't know if Japan would be able to import its 1930 supply from USA? It may overall make Japanese need for oil much more acute than in 1940. Japan seems to have the resources to do their 1930's War in China including a takeover of British and French spheres there and possibly FIC - not a World Wide Wrecking!
Edit: However the Guandong Army and other Army and Navy Officers though Admiral Yamamoto may object to it may argue to attack China and then join the Central Powers. Still Yamamoto because of his US experience 1919-21 and 1926-28 and knowledge that the USA may eventually join the Allies. The way to do it I'd expect would be to bide time build up a capacity for Naval Invasion and sustainment of the Navy off home waters before going into the war. As long as the US isn't in the War Japan may still buy oil and metals and prepare for invading the NEI or just offer the Dutch to "protect" it. Would be an interesting situation with Japan invading the NEI and Germany not invading the Netherlands..
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jan 30, 2024 15:08:29 GMT
WI: Japan from 1930 ISOT to 1914, joins the Central Powers. Japan invades and quickky seizes the Russian Far East and British/French colonies in Asia. Do the Central Powers win ww1? 575, stevep? I don't see your outline as an automatic.
Hamaguchi is still premier of Japan democratic elected and not assassinated till 14 Nov 1930. The immediate problem regarding Russia will be the Japanese Guandong Army in Manchuria but the Russians were defeated 1905. The Guandong Army had plans for a coup scheduled for March 1931 which - if they choose may be accelerated. Also they accelerate the Manchurian Incident but that was September 1931!
Japan have a strong Navy but it is a local one as a lookup of the composition of it - 1 Navy Oiler, 1 (Food)Supply Ship. Not much of a sustainment force should the Japanese decide to go abroad. However anybody going near Japan risk their lives. Japan did have 7 Oiler/tankers which were used to transport oil from USA to Japan to supply society - don't know if Japan would be able to import its 1930 supply from USA? It may overall make Japanese need for oil much more acute than in 1940. Japan seems to have the resources to do their 1930's War in China including a takeover of British and French spheres there and possibly FIC - not a World Wide Wrecking!
Edit: However the Guandong Army and other Army and Navy Officers though Admiral Yamamoto may object to it may argue to attack China and then join the Central Powers. Still Yamamoto because of his US experience 1919-21 and 1926-28 and knowledge that the USA may eventually join the Allies. The way to do it I'd expect would be to bide time build up a capacity for Naval Invasion and sustainment of the Navy off home waters before going into the war. As long as the US isn't in the War Japan may still buy oil and metals and prepare for invading the NEI or just offer the Dutch to "protect" it. Would be an interesting situation with Japan invading the NEI and Germany not invading the Netherlands..
I would agree that there are significant limitations on Japan at this stage, both internal and in terms of military capacity. I would also point out a couple of other points. a) It seems to assume that the ISOT has occurred in a narrow period of 1914, after the main war starts in Europe and before Japan started attacking German colonial possessions. If it occurs before that, and especially before the FF assassination then unless the Japanese move quickly to suppress all western foreigners insider Japan the world is going to know what happened in 1914-18. Which is something that most people in the western world are likely to want to avoid. Especially prior to the assassination its easy to avoid and with reports coming out of what happened a hell of a lot of people will want to avoid such a massive war in Europe.
If it occurs afterwards than the new Japan is likely going to have some problems persuading the Germans especially to accept them as allies.
b) Given the state of Japan in 1930 and the world in 1914 I could see it being more interested in an earlier invasion of China than a risky attack on the western world at all. Especially if the war in Europe was avoided. This is going to cause tension with the western powers, including the US which is also deeply concerned with Japan by 1914 and you might see a short war in which the western powers are given some nasty shocks and a limited defeat but that's likely to prompt a lot of pressure for reform, aided by whatever up time information they can gather.
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Post by Otto Kretschmer on Jan 30, 2024 18:17:34 GMT
1592 Japan ISOT to 191 AD.
The ruler of Japan at the time is Toyotomi Hideyoshi. He was just about to launch his invasion of Korea.
After the ISOT what awaits him is a weaker Korea and a much weaker China that is also fragmented - the Han Dynasty has just fallen and multiple warlords are ruling China.
Does he manage to conquer China? If yes, where else may he set his foot on?
Japan's population in 1592 is approx. 22 mln, China's - about 56 mln. There are plenty of men for conquest.
Hideyoshi has approx. 160,000 men in his first invasion and has advantage of having muskets and cannons.
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Jan 31, 2024 21:52:21 GMT
'2024 Silicon Valley To 1984'.
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Post by Otto Kretschmer on Feb 1, 2024 14:04:27 GMT
US from Dec 8 2020 to Dec 8 1941.
AHC: win ww2 as fast as possible.
Hitler is in Wolf's Lair so it might be possible to whack him with a squadron of B-2s or even B-52s. Makes ending the war a bit easier.
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Feb 1, 2024 16:59:11 GMT
US from Dec 8 2020 to Dec 8 1941. AHC: win ww2 as fast as possible. Hitler is in Wolf's Lair so it might be possible to whack him with a squadron of B-2s or even B-52s. Makes ending the war a bit easier. Why not make it from 2021 instead, just to keep the number of years a good bit rounder? |
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Post by Otto Kretschmer on Feb 1, 2024 17:26:37 GMT
US from Dec 8 2020 to Dec 8 1941. AHC: win ww2 as fast as possible. Hitler is in Wolf's Lair so it might be possible to whack him with a squadron of B-2s or even B-52s. Makes ending the war a bit easier. Why not make it from 2021 instead, just to keep the number of years a good bit rounder? The forum has a three year rule - everything younger than three years is considered current politics, which is why I choose 2020 and not 2021.  |
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Post by Otto Kretschmer on Feb 4, 2024 13:24:27 GMT
1592 Japan ISOT to 476 AD, replaces UK in Europe. UK moves to replace Japan in Asia.
What does Toyotomi Hideyoshi do, having a weak Europe to invade? He invades obviously.
How much land does he take and how do you imagine a mic of Japanese and European cultures to look like?
I imagine Christianity to be significantly weakened or even wiped out in areas conquered by Hideyoshi. And Germanic tribes might actually convert to Buddhism instead of Christianity for the sake of better relations with Japan.
We assume Hideyoshi has a good map of Europe. His first conquest is going to be the realm of Syagrius in northern Gaul. Syagrius can hardly put up more than 10,000 men against Hideyoshi's army of 100,000 so the conquest is going to be a walk on the park. His next target is going to be either the Kingdom of the Visigoths or the Frankjsh realm to the east. Can he succeed?
stevep, 575?
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Post by Otto Kretschmer on Feb 10, 2024 16:10:53 GMT
1870 Papal States ISOT to 350 BC.
The Papal States at the time consist of the Lazio region of Italy with the city of Rome (pop
approx 200,000) numbering some 1 mln people in total
It's army consists of:
- 2 native Italian regiments
- 2 Swiss regiments
- an Irish battalion
- Papal zouaves
- some dragoons and artillery
Numbering approx. 13,000 men in total
Can the Papal States defend itself against neighboring Etruscans, Samnites and other local tribes? Gunpowder is widely known and there should be quite a lot of gunsmiths around to produce rifles for the army. There should also be some old fortifications around that could be manned.
Can the Pope recreate the Roman Empire?
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Post by Otto Kretschmer on Feb 16, 2024 13:37:54 GMT
wI: a small Chinese town from northern China with neighboring countryside from ca. 700 AD ISOT to the territory of modern day Belarus in 700 AD.
How does the town influence Slavdom? Any chances that stuff like writing and the heavy plow percolate to the neighboring Slavic tribes?
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Post by Otto Kretschmer on Feb 21, 2024 16:47:14 GMT
Poland from September 1 1939 ISOT to September 1 1933.
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575
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Post by 575 on Mar 10, 2024 20:55:35 GMT
The Soviet troops on the Iron Curtain i.e. East - West Border in Europe are gone! Hence why I listed the various Soviet occupation troops. There is no uptime weapons only WWII arms. Soviets haven't got the Kalashnikov assaultrifle yet. There is T-34 and IS-I, II and III tanks and other 1945 outfit. The Soviets have MiG-15 jetfighters and Il-28 jetbombers but the rest is piston engined as the Tu-4 which as I understand is only produced by this time in small numbers. Problem for Soviets is so is the case with Nuclear weapons - if this is correct the Soviets made a test 1949 and none 1950 but two 1951. Didn't they have any ready by 1950?
Worst case scenario for Uncle Joe is try hold the line till the Nukes is available and use the Air technical supeority to bomb the hell out of the Germans focusing on HQs and POL as well as railways. The Germans are still badly off and Adoph may think twice when he hear about the disappearance of two Armies in East Prussia and demand the operation unfold anyways. With some bad experiences - the Germans did run into the T-34 during Barbarossa but here is some other monsters they don't have many means to counter.
Best case scenario for Uncle Joe is a nuke is ready so take out Berlin and end the charade.
Re Allies/British - well they may be happy that Adolph now have his hands full and see no need for supplying arms to the Soviets who have their factories up and running and knowing what the Germans are up to. If they get to know but surely the Polish resistance will inform them and Swedes and Finns too.
The Red Army will be able to hold the line this time. The newer T-34s and the IS-1, IS-2, and IS-3 would be monsters that not even the strongest DT German tanks will be able to take on. Air superiority, the Soviets would deploy what few MiG-15s they have along with their Yak-52s, La-7s, and Sturmovik IL-2 close-air support aircraft. As of 1950, the Soviets had 5 nuclear weapons in their stockpile (Source: Global nuclear weapons inventories, 1945–2010). The Tu-4s could definitely deliver it to Berlin and maybe another few cities. Germany would be turned into an irradiated wasteland. The Allies would be thankful of the European front ending, but that also leaves a vast occupied land in complete disarray. Countries like France, the Netherlands, Belgium, and the Balkans would rise up now the Nazi high command has been decapitated. It won't be a happy ending for these countries though, as various factions would fall into infighting in trying to claim legitimacy after the Nazis are beaten. The uptime Red Army might even invade Manchuria and Korea much earlier than OTL. However, the Soviets still cannot invade Japan because the UT Soviet Navy was mostly a coastal defense force. The DT U.S. Navy, Royal Navy, Royal Canadian Navy, Royal Australian Navy, Royal New Zealand Navy, and the Royal Netherlands Navy still can control the seas with their battleships, battle cruisers, destroyers, and submarines. - seems the Soviet Nukes and delivery means Tu-4/B-29 clone Aircraft was very flawed at the time. Quite an interesting read. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Mar 10, 2024 23:28:37 GMT
The Red Army will be able to hold the line this time. The newer T-34s and the IS-1, IS-2, and IS-3 would be monsters that not even the strongest DT German tanks will be able to take on. Air superiority, the Soviets would deploy what few MiG-15s they have along with their Yak-52s, La-7s, and Sturmovik IL-2 close-air support aircraft. As of 1950, the Soviets had 5 nuclear weapons in their stockpile (Source: Global nuclear weapons inventories, 1945–2010). The Tu-4s could definitely deliver it to Berlin and maybe another few cities. Germany would be turned into an irradiated wasteland. The Allies would be thankful of the European front ending, but that also leaves a vast occupied land in complete disarray. Countries like France, the Netherlands, Belgium, and the Balkans would rise up now the Nazi high command has been decapitated. It won't be a happy ending for these countries though, as various factions would fall into infighting in trying to claim legitimacy after the Nazis are beaten. The uptime Red Army might even invade Manchuria and Korea much earlier than OTL. However, the Soviets still cannot invade Japan because the UT Soviet Navy was mostly a coastal defense force. The DT U.S. Navy, Royal Navy, Royal Canadian Navy, Royal Australian Navy, Royal New Zealand Navy, and the Royal Netherlands Navy still can control the seas with their battleships, battle cruisers, destroyers, and submarines. - seems the Soviet Nukes and delivery means Tu-4/B-29 clone Aircraft was very flawed at the time. Quite an interesting read.
Very interesting thanks. Surprising how limited the initial Soviet nuclear capacity was. Also the huge task of copying the B-29. I knew of some of the issues but it was a massive task.
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Post by Otto Kretschmer on Apr 3, 2024 6:58:50 GMT
East Germany from January 1st 1988 (the Soviet Group of Forces is ISOTed as well) ISOT to January 1st 1958.
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