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Post by Otto Kretschmer on Jan 9, 2024 17:03:02 GMT
1913 Russia to 1894 - how much more advanced/developed is Russia by the time we1 happens in 1914, given 19 more years of peaceful development?
stevep?
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gillan1220
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Post by gillan1220 on Jan 10, 2024 14:42:29 GMT
Does this include the USFJ as mentioned by a user above? The JMSDF would have the most powerful fleet composed of Fletcher-class, Allan M. Sumner-class, and Gleaves-class DDs while the JASDF would have T-33s and F-86s. The appearance of a modern Japan would have a lot of butterflies for the 19th Century. |
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Post by Otto Kretschmer on Jan 10, 2024 14:46:54 GMT
Does this include the USFJ as mentioned by a user above? The JMSDF would have the most powerful fleet composed of Fletcher-class, Allan M. Sumner-class, and Gleaves-class DDs while the JASDF would have T-33s and F-86s. The appearance of a modern Japan would have a lot of butterflies for the 19th Century. No, US forces are not ISOTed |
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gillan1220
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Post by gillan1220 on Jan 11, 2024 3:23:44 GMT
Does this include the USFJ as mentioned by a user above? The JMSDF would have the most powerful fleet composed of Fletcher-class, Allan M. Sumner-class, and Gleaves-class DDs while the JASDF would have T-33s and F-86s. The appearance of a modern Japan would have a lot of butterflies for the 19th Century. No, US forces are not ISOTed The UT JSDF will still be more capable nonetheless. Japan better starts reverse engineering those armaments now that the U.S. is gone. |
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575
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Post by 575 on Jan 11, 2024 8:50:22 GMT
No, US forces are not ISOTed The UT JSDF will still be more capable nonetheless. Japan better starts reverse engineering those armaments now that the U.S. is gone. They will - JSDF 1960 was a Cold War static defence force according to this though it seems it did have Tanks (Sherman?) and something like 4 Divisions initially. Looking up the Wiki reveal when browsing the various links that by 1952 Japan launched its first locally built Destroyer and had at least 85 aircraft - including T-33 jet trainers.
Japanese rice production is low by 1960 but the interesting thing about the first graph is that from 1960 to 65 yield increase slightly but consumption goes down slightly - however within those four years the use of fertilzer is increased the number of farms decrease and so does the works hours. Interesting no? Mechanization of Japanese farming going on and population grows almost 4 mill.
In the 1853 world Japan have the ability at least in the Pacific FE area to take on everybody though it have to sort out providers of agricutural produce, fuel and other raw materials - as I remember from some other discussions Russia was on the brink of entering trade with Japan and the US of course wanted it too.
That in place Japan may begin thinking of Empire!
Edit: the JSDMF ships can be found here - a little convoluted. Aircraft is easier by the page for the JSDAF.  |
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Jan 11, 2024 22:29:13 GMT
'1984 Warsaw Pact To 2024'.
Say it happens on January 1st, just to keep the timekeeping easy.
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Post by Otto Kretschmer on Jan 11, 2024 22:57:52 GMT
'1984 Warsaw Pact To 2024'. Say it happens on January 1st, just to keep the timekeeping easy. 2024 is current politics, better change it to 2020. |
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gillan1220
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Post by gillan1220 on Jan 12, 2024 0:16:10 GMT
The UT JSDF will still be more capable nonetheless. Japan better starts reverse engineering those armaments now that the U.S. is gone. They will - JSDF 1960 was a Cold War static defence force according to this though it seems it did have Tanks (Sherman?) and something like 4 Divisions initially. Looking up the Wiki reveal when browsing the various links that by 1952 Japan launched its first locally built Destroyer and had at least 85 aircraft - including T-33 jet trainers.
Japanese rice production is low by 1960 but the interesting thing about the first graph is that from 1960 to 65 yield increase slightly but consumption goes down slightly - however within those four years the use of fertilzer is increased the number of farms decrease and so does the works hours. Interesting no? Mechanization of Japanese farming going on and population grows almost 4 mill.
In the 1853 world Japan have the ability at least in the Pacific FE area to take on everybody though it have to sort out providers of agricutural produce, fuel and other raw materials - as I remember from some other discussions Russia was on the brink of entering trade with Japan and the US of course wanted it too.
That in place Japan may begin thinking of Empire!
Edit: the JSDMF ships can be found here - a little convoluted. Aircraft is easier by the page for the JSDAF. So in other words, even though the uptime JSDF is the most advanced military in the world, their power projection is still limited? I guess if the scenario took place between 1980-2000, the scenario would tweak to even more of Japan's favor. Yes, the JGSDF used M4 Shermans and other American armored vehicles surplus. |
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Post by Otto Kretschmer on Jan 12, 2024 0:19:16 GMT
I wonder how exactly will the 1960 Japan change the 19th century world? What butterflies are the most obvious?
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gillan1220
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Post by gillan1220 on Jan 12, 2024 0:51:57 GMT
I wonder how exactly will the 1960 Japan change the 19th century world? What butterflies are the most obvious? Improve firearms and armaments. Maybe ocean going ships will be more advanced. It butterflies the birth of most historical figures. |
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575
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Post by 575 on Jan 12, 2024 9:33:47 GMT
They will - JSDF 1960 was a Cold War static defence force according to this though it seems it did have Tanks (Sherman?) and something like 4 Divisions initially. Looking up the Wiki reveal when browsing the various links that by 1952 Japan launched its first locally built Destroyer and had at least 85 aircraft - including T-33 jet trainers.
Japanese rice production is low by 1960 but the interesting thing about the first graph is that from 1960 to 65 yield increase slightly but consumption goes down slightly - however within those four years the use of fertilzer is increased the number of farms decrease and so does the works hours. Interesting no? Mechanization of Japanese farming going on and population grows almost 4 mill.
In the 1853 world Japan have the ability at least in the Pacific FE area to take on everybody though it have to sort out providers of agricutural produce, fuel and other raw materials - as I remember from some other discussions Russia was on the brink of entering trade with Japan and the US of course wanted it too.
That in place Japan may begin thinking of Empire!
Edit: the JSDMF ships can be found here - a little convoluted. Aircraft is easier by the page for the JSDAF. So in other words, even though the uptime JSDF is the most advanced military in the world, their power projection is still limited? I guess if the scenario took place between 1980-2000, the scenario would tweak to even more of Japan's favor. Yes, the JGSDF used M4 Shermans and other American armored vehicles surplus. Their power projection capability is limited but having sorted out their food and materials supply they will be in position to change that - possibly within a few years as they are already building Destroyers and Aircraft - both prop and jet! Guess Japan 1960 also have a large Merchant fleet of assorted ships so might go the easy way for powerprojection by converting such. Their position in the Pacific will be a bonus as even if Commander Perry is enroute he may be told to just bugger off way off the isles. However the Japanese shouldn't be too isolated as they need to open trade but tell Perry that firing guns in Japanese waters is a no go except as a Salute to the Emperor!
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575
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Post by 575 on Jan 12, 2024 10:03:15 GMT
I wonder how exactly will the 1960 Japan change the 19th century world? What butterflies are the most obvious? Change + Butterflies: telling the Europeans and Americans that we are your equals/superiors in every aspect (just wait till post negotiating trade deals of course write the treaties yourself which will infuriate the E and A's) and don't go for colonies but respect other peoples. Do de-colonize whats already in such state and leave the Africans to themselves. No slavery, thank you very much.
Political option: occupy Korea and Manchuria which will of course bring a war with China, Amur Province and Sakhalin which isn't Russian at this time, establish protectorate of Thailand/Siam, North Sumatra, Hawaii, Samoa and whatever isn't a colony in the Pacific.
Possibilities: Build the Suez and Panama Canals and get a protectorate on both. |
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Post by Otto Kretschmer on Jan 12, 2024 10:09:16 GMT
I wonder how exactly will the 1960 Japan change the 19th century world? What butterflies are the most obvious? Change + Butterflies: telling the Europeans and Americans that we are your equals/superiors in every aspect (just wait till post negotiating trade deals of course write the treaties yourself which will infuriate the E and A's) and don't go for colonies but respect other peoples. Do de-colonize whats already in such state and leave the Africans to themselves. No slavery, thank you very much.
Political option: occupy Korea and Manchuria which will of course bring a war with China, Amur Province and Sakhalin which isn't Russian at this time, establish protectorate of Thailand/Siam, North Sumatra, Hawaii, Samoa and whatever isn't a colony in the Pacific.
Possibilities: Build the Suez and Panama Canals and get a protectorate on both. How do you expect the tech level in the year 2024 to be in such a scenario? |
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575
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There is no Purgatory for warcriminals - they go directly to Hell!
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Post by 575 on Jan 12, 2024 10:13:57 GMT
Change + Butterflies: telling the Europeans and Americans that we are your equals/superiors in every aspect (just wait till post negotiating trade deals of course write the treaties yourself which will infuriate the E and A's) and don't go for colonies but respect other peoples. Do de-colonize whats already in such state and leave the Africans to themselves. No slavery, thank you very much.
Political option: occupy Korea and Manchuria which will of course bring a war with China, Amur Province and Sakhalin which isn't Russian at this time, establish protectorate of Thailand/Siam, North Sumatra, Hawaii, Samoa and whatever isn't a colony in the Pacific.
Possibilities: Build the Suez and Panama Canals and get a protectorate on both. How do you expect the tech level in the year 2024 to be in such a scenario? Now that's too easy - I have provided You something now You do some thinking! |
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Post by Otto Kretschmer on Jan 12, 2024 10:49:12 GMT
575I expect the tech level in 2024 to be higher than OTL 2024. 1960 is already in the era of electronics. I don't know how advanced Japanese computer program was in 1960 but they were at least well aware of what a computer is and how it works. So I expect the first computers to be built around 1870-80 at the latest and first personal computers by 1900-1910. This is already a huge thing and just to he tip of the icebefg. Introduction of vaccines and antibiotics means an earlier population boom all around the world. I expect the world to reach 2024 tech level by 1960.
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