DMZ
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Post by DMZ on Nov 6, 2021 18:51:56 GMT
After Barbarossa, it won't be possible to supply Russia through Sweden and Finland as there are neutral (at least Sweden). Before, there will be no trade between UK and Russia... Anyway, as the rail gauge is different in Russia and it won't depend upon foreign countries, it's much preferable to have direct convoys to Murmansk. It will be also more secure because Narvik will always stay at LW bombers range while northern route is too far for German planes and too risky for raiders.
Indeed, Petsamo was still Finish at this time but there were no railroad, only a bad track to Rovaniemi (500 km) or Kemijärvi (465 km), not suitable to supply Finland. Railroad from Narvik is far more apropriate and didn't breach their neutrality either as any contry has the right to buy armaments to defend itself.
Hanko will probably be supplied by sea as IOTL. Should Finns stay neutral during German invasion of Soviet Union, there will be no major issue for Hanko. On the opposite, the fate of Hanko will be evacuation as IOTL. The point is Hanko will be a major support point for Russian naval forces and would probably be attacked by KM or LW. What will be reaction of Finland? Probably nothing but verbal protest if any .
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DMZ
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Post by DMZ on Nov 10, 2021 13:11:58 GMT
OK, we have explored several extreme cases from German breakthrough at Fauske to Allied conter-attack at Finneid and Rognan. Let's assume the more probable outcome of the campaign on June 10th: the front line is on the Skjerstad Fjord, Nedrevatnet and Øvrevatnet; The Allied hold Fauske, Finneid and Lakså and the Germans are on the other side of the fjord from Rognan to Sjønstå. Chronology
alternate-timelines.com/post/143124/threadMay 30 - The Mowinckel plan, initiated by Sweden following German suggestion, to neutralize Narvik under condition to Allied withdraw is proposed on more time by the Swedes and again rejected is by both London and Tromsø. June 2 - Landing in Rombaksbotn. Dietl build a last defensive square aroud Bjørnfjell station near Swedish border. ( alternate-timelines.com/post/143190 ) (...) June 8 and 9 - Operation Juno, battle of Andoya, battle of Namsos ( alternate-timelines.com/post/143174 ) Result of Operation JunoBritish One light cruiser ( Coventry), four destroyers, one tanker and a freighter lost One battlecruiser ( Devonshire), one light cruiser ( Southampton) and three destroyers badly damaged One battleship ( Valiant), one battlecruisers ( Repulse) and one destroyer damaged 7 Swordfish, 3 Skua and 2 Gladiator lost German One battlecruiser ( Scharnhorst) and two destroyers lost One battlecruiser ( Gneisenau), one cruiser ( Admiral Hipper) and one destroyer badly damaged 1 He 111 and 2 Ju 87 lost In France, the situation is quickly deteriorating, Germans are launching Fall Rot, Paris is declared an open city, the government flees to Tours then Bordeaux, Mussolini declare war to France the 10th. On June 16, Reynaud resignes. Pétain is designated Président du Conseil and declares the next day: "il faut cesser le combat" (we must stop the fight). In Norway, the 181. ID is moving North to join the 2. Gebirgs-Division at Rognan. The Norvegian 6th Division is redeployed between Bodø an the Swedish border, Poles are sent to Bodø in reserve. Apart some skirmishs on and around the glacier East of Sjønstå, near the border, the frontline is calm. On the other side of the front, the southern bank of the Skjerstad Fjord is progressively occupied by 16th Norwegian Regiment and 1st and 5th Independant companies landing at Ljønes, Skjerstad and Breivik and moving South. They encounter a platoon from 2. Gebirgs-Division at Misvær that is forced to retreat. Allies continue pushing until Kåsmohalsen using the small road and overtake the withdrowing elements which surrender. Without road from Rognan, Germans where initially unaware of the event and then couldn't send heavy weapons to stop the advance. However, they eventually overwhelm British and Norwegians as they move forward and they push them back to the Misvær fjord where the later could recover thanks to the naval supply. On the following days, Germans send more troops and the Allies had to withdraw to the North of Misvær fjord where the naval support by some Norwegian patrol boats helps to stop the German advance. At the end of the month, Allies are firmly entrenched on a small perimeter around Ljønes and Skjerstad. Nowegian platoons are dispached on the Southern coast up to the Svartisen glacier, on the other side, Germans occupy the coast and islands North of Mo i Rana. Without any way of communication, situation freezes without any real contact apart on sea and in the adjacent fjords where small naval skirmishs beween patrol and supply boats occure. In the air, Luftwaffe start a small Blitz on Bodø, Narvik, Harvik, Bardufoss, Tromsø. RAF launchs retaliation raids on Værnes airfield and harass German logistics. Heavy bomber losses on each side. On June 25, at the entry into force of the armistice in France, the situation hadn't changed and each side is reinforcing even if German communication lines are suffering more than Allied ones from air attacks. After a small period of discouragement, Norwegian population starts to be enthousiastic about the fierce resistance in the North and a flow of volonteers arrive, 50 to 100 people a day, most of them officers. General Fleisher considers creating one new division with these mens along with the conscripts from the Troms and Finmark regions. After a short discussion, the War Cabinet agree to arm and support these forces that will help to keep British troops on Norway at a minimal level. Pilots will be sent to Scotland to be trained on modern airplanes. Norwegian government will continue negotiation with USA to obtain more war planes. Hitler decides to carry over his effort on Norway to end with this ridiculous situation... |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Nov 10, 2021 17:26:57 GMT
Pilots will be sent to Scotland to be trained on modern airplanes. Norwegian government will continue negotiation with USA to obtain more war planes. That will take some time. |
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DMZ
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Post by DMZ on Nov 10, 2021 17:37:32 GMT
Pilots will be sent to Scotland to be trained on modern airplanes. Norwegian government will continue negotiation with USA to obtain more war planes. That will take some time. Yes, let say at least one month for Hurricane from Gladiator or equivalent. But I assume some pilots was already transformed on Curtiss P-36. The point is what planes to reequip NoAAF, not yet decided. For American planes, discussions are already in progress... |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Nov 10, 2021 17:42:04 GMT
So what is the Royal Norwegian Navy doing, if they still excist.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Nov 10, 2021 18:59:24 GMT
..... Hitler decides to report his effort on Norway to end with this ridiculous situation...
DMZ, Just to clarify. Is this a typo for redouble or something? Otherwise not sure what's being said there please? |
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DMZ
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Post by DMZ on Nov 10, 2021 19:54:31 GMT
Sorry, it's a very bad translation of "transférer son effort"
Deepl.com: Hitler decides to carry over its effort to Norway.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Nov 10, 2021 20:11:15 GMT
Sorry, it's a very bad translation of "transférer son effort" Deepl.com: Hitler decides to carry over its effort to Norway.
OK, many thanks. So more to come although that will take some weight off Britain probably and will hopefully prove a costly failure for the Germans.
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DMZ
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Post by DMZ on Nov 11, 2021 12:52:33 GMT
June 15 - Tromsø
Defense meeting with King Haakon VII, Crown Prince Olav, Prime Minister Nygaardsvold, Minister of Defence Birger Ljungberg, General Otto Ruge, General Carl Gustav Fleischer, Rear Admiral Henry Diesen, Senior officers from Norwegian Army Air Service and Royal Norwegian Navy Air Service.
"Gentlemen, as you know, the situation is as follows: we have recaptured Narvik and we are holding out in the Bodø area despite heavy enemy pressure. How can we organize ourselves for the next step?
- For the moment, your Majesty, Great Britain continues to support us, but the events in France are worrying and we risk finding ourselves alone at any moment. Will we be able to hold on in this case? Should we not return to the Mowinckel plan of demilitarizing Narvik?
- We now know that the Germans do not respect their commitments. Even if they sign the Mowinckel plan, we would quickly find ourselves in a difficult position.
- The defense line of Bodø - Fauske is much better than Narvik, it pushes the Germans back much further south. If they can seize Bodø, they will have control of the sky.
- But can we resist without British help?
- Without air cover, no. They must be persuaded by all means to hold at least that long until we can take it over.
- How long would it take?
- I estimate that it would take us a year to create the necessary fighter squadrons and train the pilots before we could be fully operational.
- Very well, we will press the British and explore the possibility of continuing to acquire aircraft from the US.
- We still have 5 Curtiss P-36 Hawk 75A-6s being delivered and 36 Hawk 75A-8s on order, as well as 36 Northrop-Douglas DB-8A-5 two-seat light bombers scheduled for the end of the year and 24 Northrop N-3PB patrol and bombing/torpedo seaplanes due to arrive early next year.
- We are in contact with Bernt Balchen in the USA, who is negotiating the purchases on the spot. His dual nationality greatly simplifies the discussions, and he has undeniable experience in aviation.
- He should be asked to push the negotiations for the purchase of fighters as a priority.
- Maritime surveillance is also very important for effective anti-submarine warfare, and the Northrop N-3PBs should be a great help, but in the meantime we only have five Heinkel He 115s, for which we will soon run out of spare parts.
- What about the army?
- The 6th Division has performed well despite the setbacks in the retreat from Namsos. It has made a lot of progress and is now able to stand up to the best enemy units. But we still have only one division.
- Volunteers are pouring in from the south of the country, but we don't have enough to equip them.
- The British agreed to provide us with the equipment for two divisions, but the lack of anti-aircraft guns was the main problem, and they did not have enough of them.
- All right, so we have to start the creation and training of the 7th division.
- What about the Navy?
- We have only light units left, except for the destroyer Sleipner. The sistership Æger has sunk and Gyller, Odin, Thor and Balder have been captured. Norge and Eidsvoll were torpedoed but no longer had any military value.
- We must refocus the navy's missions on close protection of coastal vessels and anti-submarine surveillance and leave the responsibility for the high seas to the Royal Navy. But anti-aircraft protection must be strengthened. We will face the same availability problems as for the army.
- What operations can we envisage?
- Not much, except for a handful of coups de main. The German lines of communication are stretched and vulnerable, I propose to launch harassment operations between Mo i Rana and Rognan and along the coast to Mosjøen.
- But the length of the day and the low vegetation cover will make any penetration very dangerous.
- So we will have to wait for the return of the night. Let us concentrate on the immediate surroundings of Rognan and Skjerstad Fjord to make life unbearable for the Germans.
- And to solidly fortify the sector of Fauske - Finneid to ward off any attempt to break through.
- The artillery beats the whole sector and we have some reserves with the Polish Brigade.
- Well, it looks like we still have a few problems to solve but the situation is quite encouraging. Gentlemen, I thank you."
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Nov 11, 2021 15:40:53 GMT
- For the moment, your Majesty, Great Britain continues to support us, but the events in France are worrying and we risk finding ourselves alone at any moment. Will we be able to hold on in this case? Should we not return to the Mowinckel plan of demilitarizing Narvik? Interesting, never knew the Mowinckel plan was real until i Goggled it. |
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575
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Post by 575 on Nov 11, 2021 15:51:26 GMT
Just remembered - the Norwegians Divisions were not operational units but areas of mobilization training and such much like British Regiments. The operational manoeuvre unit were the Brigade which could have quite a number of battalions in command. I once got lectured on this by Oddball at AH.com - The Norwegian Army of 1940 was organized into 6 regional "divisions" which were in fact administrative units responsible for units training, mobilization, personnel administration and supply officers to command field units etc, much like what modern Danish or British readers would expect from one of their national regiments.
The operational manoeuvre unit was to be the brigade; each "division" mobilizing one brigade of two or three regiments of infantry with an artillery battalion and attached cavalry and engineers.
The infantry regiments would consist of two battalions of mobile infantry and one of Landvern/static local defence battalion. (what at times may confuse readers is that the Landvern battalion in some sources is referred to the 3rd battalion of the regiment giving the impression of three mobile infantry and a Landvern battalions to the regiment)
During the OTL events lots of units mobilized didn't reach battalion size or were made up to battalion size by collecting a hotchpotch of companies and naming them a battalion.
Due to the fractured nature of the mobilized army the regiment usually ended up the organizational manoeuvre unit thus fulfilling the role intended for the brigade.
6. Brigade in North Norway was the only one close to envisioned organization due to being mobilized prior to 9. April 1940
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Post by simon darkshade on Nov 11, 2021 17:54:23 GMT
As a somewhat related question, I’ve come across Nordenfjeldske and Sondenfjeldske as the names of the Norwegian dragoon regiments in 1940. What do they translate to in English?
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575
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Post by 575 on Nov 12, 2021 7:56:23 GMT
As a somewhat related question, I’ve come across Nordenfjeldske and Sondenfjeldske as the names of the Norwegian dragoon regiments in 1940. What do they translate to in English? Nordenfjeldske - northern mountains
Sondenfjeldske - southern mountains
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575
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Post by 575 on Nov 12, 2021 21:51:43 GMT
A couple of Danish oddities related to the campaign in Norway.
Naval Pilot Lieutenant Kaj Birksted and another Lieutenant Pilot Charles Sundby had reached Namsos, Norway by 26. April and reported to the Norwegian Armed Forces. Birksted who was one of a few Nordics who were fluent in English having spent his first 12 years in Boston, USA became liaison officer of the Norwegian Forces to the British. 3. May they were evacuated to Glasgow and then went to London ITTL they may find their way back to North Norway to join the Norwegians; though perhaps only Birksted in his liaison role and Sundby then remain in Scotland for training with the Norwegian pilots converting to Curtiss fighters.
The other thing was the Madsen machinegun which had been license produced by the Norwegian Forces just as the Danish Forces were license producing the Norwegian Krag-Jørgensen rifle. Landing at Narvik the Germans came in possession of some 300 Madsen LMG's. ITTL both sides may be using that weapon as the Germans also captured weapons in the south of Norway.
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DMZ
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Post by DMZ on Nov 28, 2021 10:16:05 GMT
Passing the Flag
Despite the victory in Narvik and the succesfull defense in Fauske, the British evacuation was always on the table mid-June.
The British withdrawing was first envisionned on May 23, after the German Panzer divisions reached the Channel and encircled the "Groupe d'armées numéro un" in northern France and Belgium, including the whole BEF. Although most of the attendants of the War Concil was of the opinion to remove the troops from Norway to reinforce British defense and especially to relieve the RN from the burden of convoys to Narvik, it has been decided to postpone the final decision after the seizure of Narvik. After the unexpected success of Operation Dynamo, the fear of an invasion remained but it was not expected as soon as France was still in the fight. But during the second week of June, the quick advance of Germans shown that the situation was really desesperate and that within one month, at the latest, the next target will be England. The Italian declaration of war finished to persuade Admiralty that the Royal Navy was to be redispached to the Mediterranean Sea to protect the communication with the Empire.
A discussion as terrible as the Battle of France ensued between the supporters of Norwegians and the promoters of the evacuation and the last won, British will withdraw from Norway. Nevertheless, the respect gained by the small Norwegian army from the British officers in Norway, and the hudge contribution of the Norwegian merchant fleet, advocated for giving them the means to defend themselves. Royal Navy is required to make an additionnal effort to help reamament of these tiny but efficient forces, considering the Kriegsmarine collapse after the operation against Harstad, only light cruiser and destroyers escort seemed to be needed.
Few days later, June 16, at the announcement of the Petain's speetch requiring the end of the fight in France, a new panic seized the Head Quarter but Churchill held firm on the decision.
The British Minister in Norway, Sir Cecil Dormer, described the situation to king Haarkon VII and Norwegian government and announced that British forces has to withdraw from Norway within two weeks. The British will leave all heavy equipment, including AA batteries despite their vital need in Brittain. General Ruge, supported by general Auchinleck urgently asked for keeping two RAF squadrons until Norwegian pilots could take it over, arguing that there was enought trained crews to be transformed on Hurricanes and, in the mean time, qualified for Gladiators. Dormer agreed to transmit this request but precised that Royal Navy convoys' escorts will decrease and, here too, Norway has to take the effort.
In the following days, high level discussions continued to organize the transfer of equipement and the build up of the Norwegian army. The numerous unarmed Norwegian soldiers was quickly equiped with British riffles and machine guns and started training. But artillery was to be reinforced. With only two remaining destroyers, Norwegian Navy was not able to assure the protection of the convoys and advocated for a minimal help from RN that was agreed except that it could be removed at any time without previous notice in case of imminent danger of invasion. Two light cruisers and ten destroyers was devoted to the northern convoys. A dozen of Gladiators were sent to Norway and the first Norwegian fighting squadron installed in Skånland/Evenes. Having seen the efficiency of the fighter-dive bomber Skua, a request was made to obtain at least a squadron of these planes. Norwegian also required British military engineers to stay in Norway to help them to develop and reinforce infrastructures, especially harbours and airfields. Last but not least, after serious discussion, two independant companies will stay in Norway, Gubbins arguing maintaining these special forces in action in Norway will be of better efficiency than sending them back to United Kingdom without activity.
The Polish governement in exile soon declared that the Polish troops withdrawn from France could be transfered to Norway to reinforce the Independant Highland Brigade. Norwegian government immediatly dispached freighters to carry these undreamed forces. Unfortunatly, all Polish divisions was on the eastern front and not able to evacuate. But discussions started to send a Polish fighter squadron as soon as reequiped.
On June 20, general De Gaulle prononced a speach to the destination of the French forces in Narvik, congratulating them and announcing there was the pride and a model for France in these troubled times. He also sent a personnal message to general Béthouart urging him to continue his great action in the North. Forgotten by the French Head Quarter and without any instruction since two weeks, the infortunate general turned to general Ruge to offer him all help waiting for more information from France.
On June 25, as armistice in France came into effect, the situation was as follow (from East to West):
Lakså - Gjengam:
- 6th Brigade (Norway) Col. Löken
-- 12th Regiment Maj. Böckmann
-- 16th Regiment Maj. Munthe-Kaas
Finneid - Fauske:
-7th Brigade (Norway) Col. Faye
-- Alta Regiment Lt.Col. Dahl
-- 15th Regiment Maj. Hyldmo
- 6e CDAC (France)
4 sections x 3 x 25 mm anti-tank
Hjemås (north of Fauske):
- 3rd Mountain Artillery Battalion (Norway) Lt.Col. Hornslien
reequiped with 2 x 12 Ordnance QF 25-pounder 87,6 mm from 203rd Field Battery/51st Field Regiment Royal Artillery
- 2nd GAAC (France)
3 batteries x 4 x 75 mm all-terrain towed artillery
- 342nd and 343rd Compagnie Autonome de Chars de Combat (France) Capt. Dublineau
Reserve near Fauske:
- 14th Regiment (Norway)
- Podhale Independant Highland Brigade (Poland) Gen. Bohusz-Szysko
Reserve in Elvemo:
- 27th Demi-Brigade de Chasseurs Alpins (France) Lt-Col. Valentini
Reserve in Bodø:
- 13th Demi-Brigade de la Légion Étrangère (France) Col. Magrin-Verneret
- 1st and 5th independant companies (United Kingdom) Col. Colin Gubbins
Between Narvik and Bardufoss:
- 13th Regiment (Norway)
- Four other regiments under formation
CiC: General Otto Ruge
Commander Bodo - Fauske front: Gen. Carl Gustav Fleischer
Commander CEFS (French and Polish troops): Gen. Antoine Béthouart
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