lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 14, 2021 10:22:10 GMT
So what if the two Alaska-class cruisers (Alaska and Guam) remain in service instead of decommissioned in 1947, the serve longer and like the Iowas are mothballed and taken back into service in the 1980s, could they be turned into something like the Kirov Class.
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Post by simon darkshade on Aug 14, 2021 10:34:02 GMT
No.
Firstly, there was no point to them being in service in the 1940s and 1950s. They could not provide the 16” gunfire of the Iowas on the one hand nor do a substantially better job than the Baltimores and Des Moines in carrier escort on the other. They were crew sinks at a time when manpower was more and more important.
Secondly, there is no threat that demands them. This is the big one.
Thirdly, they were large cruisers with significant protection issues and design flaws. There is no reason for them to survive the culling of the early 60s. The Iowas only did so due to the vagaries of fortune; there was a reasonable chance they could have been scrapped in the early 70s.
If they survive to the 1980s, then they would be quite useful as Tomahawk barges, as were the Iowas. That window of utility slams shut once the VLS Spruances enter service.
There is no point, chance or possibility for them to turn into a nuclear powered sea denial cruiser like the Kirovs, as the USN faced a completely different threat to the Soviets. When you have carriers, there is no reason to fluff around with such ships.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 14, 2021 10:35:25 GMT
No. Firstly, there was no point to them being in service in the 1940s and 1950s. They could not provide the 16” gunfire of the Iowas on the one hand nor do a substantially better job than the Baltimores and Des Moines in carrier escort on the other. They were crew sinks at a time when manpower was more and more important. Secondly, there is no threat that demands them. This is the big one. Thirdly, they were large cruisers with significant protection issues and design flaws. There is no reason for them to survive the culling of the early 60s. The Iowas only did so due to the vagaries of fortune; there was a reasonable chance they could have been scrapped in the early 70s. If they survive to the 1980s, then they would be quite useful as Tomahawk barges, as were the Iowas. That window of utility slams shut once the VLS Spruances enter service. There is no point, chance or possibility for them to turn into a nuclear powered sea denial cruiser like the Kirovs, as the USN faced a completely different threat to the Soviets. When you have carriers, there is no reason to fluff around with such ships. So you are saying, the Iowas can do the same job as the Alaska but more.
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Post by simon darkshade on Aug 14, 2021 11:01:03 GMT
Yes, that is exactly what I’m saying.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 14, 2021 11:06:13 GMT
Yes, that is exactly what I’m saying. Well then this was a short thread then. But still looking at the the picture below i can see why the Alaska might not serve long, it looks like the little brother of Iowa.
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Post by simon darkshade on Aug 14, 2021 11:57:35 GMT
Size isn't everything.
In the postwar period, an Alaska had a crew of 1800+ compared to 1100 for a Baltimore. The Alaskas carried the same amount of 5" and only two more 40mm mounts than ships half their displacement, had deficient underwater protection and a huge turning circle.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 14, 2021 12:02:03 GMT
Size isn't everything. In the postwar period, an Alaska had a crew of 1800+ compared to 1100 for a Baltimore. The Alaskas carried the same amount of 5" and only two more 40mm mounts than ships half their displacement, had deficient underwater protection and a huge turning circle. A that makes sense.
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belushitd
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Post by belushitd on Aug 25, 2021 3:33:45 GMT
It should be kept in mind that during the planning to reactivate the Iowas in the early 80's, there was apparently some gnashing of teeth that the Alaskas had been scrapped, as they would have provided a similar/better tomahawk platform for much less crew. And if your whole point in life is to be a tomahawk thrower, your turning radius really doesn't matter all that much. Regretfully, I do not have a source on this, as it came from a naval expert of my online acquaintance who has since passed. Yes, I know that ignores the Marine clarion call for the retention of the Iowas, Naval Gunfire Support, but the cold hard truth is that there is EXTREMELY little in the way of beach or near beach defenses that a 12 inch cannon can't destroy but a 16 inch cannon can. Remember, the 12 inch guns on the Alaska class were specifically developed for that class of ship. Brand new, had similar ranges (22 miles Alaska class, 24 miles Iowa class) and were also (as I understand it) equipped with a superheavy version of the AP shell.
In my own little world, I would prefer that each ship named after a state/territory/city would have been donated to said state/territory/city as a memorial. I totally understand it wasn't feasible at the time the ships were scrapped for every one, nor would it have been feasible to continue paying upkeep for the ships, nor would you be able to get some of the ships to the locations in question. And finally, I'm aware that there was no interest in preservation for the vast majority of them at the time. But it warms my heart to think that they could have finished the Kentucky and then towed her up the mississippi and ohio rivers to permanently dock her somewhere in Kentucky. Just like it would have been great for the Alaska to be in Juneau somewhere, along with the Juneau.
I envision a person with Bezos level wealth in 1959 or so going to the navy and telling them "Hey, I want to preserve the battleships, cruisers and carriers named after specific places. I've this pile of money, can you work with me?" maybe get the Army corps of engineers involved. Buy land, dig a drydock kind of thing, line it with concrete and tow the ship in. Build a roof over it and call it a museum.
Belushi TD
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Sept 12, 2021 17:43:23 GMT
It should be kept in mind that during the planning to reactivate the Iowas in the early 80's, there was apparently some gnashing of teeth that the Alaskas had been scrapped, as they would have provided a similar/better tomahawk platform for much less crew. Belushi TD But would they carry the same amount of Tomahawks compared to the Iowas.
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1bigrich
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Post by 1bigrich on Sept 12, 2021 18:46:49 GMT
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Sept 12, 2021 18:58:23 GMT
Well having two Alaska's ore four Iowas in mothball, the Iowas win due them being more in number and bigger i think.
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1bigrich
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Post by 1bigrich on Sept 12, 2021 19:33:50 GMT
Well having two Alaska's ore four Iowas in mothball, the Iowas win due them being more in number and bigger i think.
That was kind of Dick's point, lordroel.
While not as large as the Iowas, the Alaskas were still big enough, and fast enough to carry a useful armament of Tomahawks and Harpoons.
One of my personal scenarios sees them sent to Turkey and Greece in the 1950s as counters to the Russian posession of Novorossiysk. they eventually shoot at each other when one of the Greco-Turk disputes heats up..... Regards,
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Sept 13, 2021 15:36:35 GMT
Well having two Alaska's ore four Iowas in mothball, the Iowas win due them being more in number and bigger i think. That was kind of Dick's point, lordroel.
While not as large as the Iowas, the Alaskas were still big enough, and fast enough to carry a useful armament of Tomahawks and Harpoons.
One of my personal scenarios sees them sent to Turkey and Greece in the 1950s as counters to the Russian posession of Novorossiysk. they eventually shoot at each other when one of the Greco-Turk disputes heats up..... Regards,
Well the Turks did operate until 1950 a old former German Moltke-class battlecruiser Yavuz (ex-Goeben) so having a Alaska-class might work. On 5 April 1946, the U.S. Navy battleship USS Missouri (BB-63) brought home for burial the body of the late Turkish Ambassador to the United States, Mehmet Munir Ertegun. This visit also was aimed at influencing Russian Middle East policy. The destroyer USS Power (DD-839) is at left, At right is the Turkish battlecruiser TCG Yavuz (B-70).
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Post by simon darkshade on Sept 14, 2021 14:45:21 GMT
I remember the Alaska Tomahawk comments as well over the years, from Stuart Slade and others.
However, they went and went early. They were stricken and scrapped in 1960. Washington also went that year, with South Dakota and Indiana going in 1962 and 1963. The first tranche of battleships went in 1959 in the form of the Big 5, with everything earlier going in 1947 or Crossroads.
Why did the wave of strikings and scrappings happen then? I'd say a variety of reasons, such as Korea finishing up and not turning out to be the prelude to WW3; the emergence of new weapons systems removing the impetus to keep a reserve BB force just in case; and the New Look kicking in. I'm sure there is something on it in Friedman, but my entire technical library is boxed up in storage and I'm unlikely to see it again in this lifetime. Suffice it to say that once the shift in doctrine and decision happened, it happened rather quickly.
In such circumstances, there is absolutely no reason to keep the two Alaskas around. They add an extra calibre, are manpower sinks at a time when new missile ships were the way of the future and are inferior in firepower to the SoDaks.
The wonder isn't that the Alaskas were not saved, but that the Iowas were not scrapped. That came down to the odd circumstances of Vietnam and New Jersey's deployment there; even then, the requirements weren't specifically calling for a BB, but rather 1 BB or 2 auto CA. If we elide that war from the historical record, then we can easily see three of the Iowas scrapped in the late 1960s/early 1970s, down to a dip in some of the general nostalgia levels perhaps.
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gillan1220
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Post by gillan1220 on Sept 14, 2021 16:02:59 GMT
Someone in my history group for the Cold War in the Philippines proposed on what-if the Philippine Navy purchased one of the Alaska-class battle cruisers. Naval experts and veterans were quick to point out that the Philippine Navy does not need such ship which is a resource sink. The Philippines during the Cold War offered ASW, minesweeping, and maritime patrol against the OPFOR as it does today. Better invest the resources used to keep an Alaska cruiser to have a destroyer, destroyer escort, frigate, submarine, or a fast-attack craft.
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