lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Sept 14, 2021 16:15:33 GMT
Someone in my history group for the Cold War in the Philippines proposed on what-if the Philippine Navy purchased one of the Alaska-class battle cruisers. Naval experts and veterans were quick to point out that the Philippine Navy does not need such ship which is a resource sink. The Philippines during the Cold War offered ASW, minesweeping, and maritime patrol against the OPFOR as it does today. Better invest the resources used to keep an Alaska cruiser to have a destroyer, destroyer escort, frigate, submarine, or a fast-attack craft. Agree a ship like the Alaska-class needs some 1,500 officers and sailors, best used on smaller ships like frigates and destroyers.
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Post by simon darkshade on Sept 14, 2021 16:20:22 GMT
Not a hope in Hades, realistically. The largest ship operated by the Philippines ever were their current LPDs, with a crew of 121. At the time when the Alaskas were in reserve, the largest was a Buckley with a crew of 213. Your chaps would not have had any officers with sufficient experience to command such a ship, nor the numbers to support their engineering plant, nor the sailors to crew her. Realistically, the Philippines Navy of the 1950s and 1960s was barely a coastal escort force and didn't really need to do much more. They have not ever operated a destroyer 76 years after the war, just WW2 sized frigates.
Postwar, the only time that light cruisers were sold was to South American navies by Britain, the USA, Sweden and the Netherlands and to India and Pakistan by the British. The only large ships sold or transferred were carriers and only to a handful of states at that; after that, we get the large number of surplus USN and RN destroyers and frigates.
I'm all for fun and zany ideas, but this one doesn't work on any level in this world.
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gillan1220
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Post by gillan1220 on Sept 14, 2021 16:41:26 GMT
Not a hope in Hades, realistically. The largest ship operated by the Philippines ever were their current LPDs, with a crew of 121. At the time when the Alaskas were in reserve, the largest was a Buckley with a crew of 213. Your chaps would not have had any officers with sufficient experience to command such a ship, nor the numbers to support their engineering plant, nor the sailors to crew her. Realistically, the Philippines Navy of the 1950s and 1960s was barely a coastal escort force and didn't really need to do much more. They have not ever operated a destroyer 76 years after the war, just WW2 sized frigates. At that time, the largest ships operated by the PN was the Cannon-class DE. All destroyer and frigate deals fell short. One great achievement of this era is one of our patrol boats sank one unknown submarine and damage another during the 1950s.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Sept 14, 2021 16:43:18 GMT
One great achievement of this era is one of our patrol boats sank one unknown submarine and damage another during the 1950s. Never heard of that, interesting but also moving away from the tread, so if you have any more information about this, the General Historical Discussion board would be a nice place to talk about it.
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1bigrich
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Post by 1bigrich on Sept 19, 2021 18:43:59 GMT
On 5 April 1946, the U.S. Navy battleship USS Missouri (BB-63) brought home for burial the body of the late Turkish Ambassador to the United States, Mehmet Munir Ertegun. This visit also was aimed at influencing Russian Middle East policy. The destroyer USS Power (DD-839) is at left, At right is the Turkish battlecruiser TCG Yavuz (B-70).
That is a great pic! I've seen a different angle on that when they were in the Dardanelles together. As I recall, the Soviets were putting pressure on Turkey at the time over the Montreaux (spelling?) treaty and sending Missouri was as much diplomatic posturing as an honor to the ambassador.
Regards,
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Sept 19, 2021 18:48:33 GMT
On 5 April 1946, the U.S. Navy battleship USS Missouri (BB-63) brought home for burial the body of the late Turkish Ambassador to the United States, Mehmet Munir Ertegun. This visit also was aimed at influencing Russian Middle East policy. The destroyer USS Power (DD-839) is at left, At right is the Turkish battlecruiser TCG Yavuz (B-70). That is a great pic! I've seen a different angle on that when they were in the Dardanelles together. As I recall, the Soviets were putting pressure on Turkey at the time over the Montreaux (spelling?) treaty and sending Missouri was as much diplomatic posturing as an honor to the ambassador. Regards,
The DEPARTMENT OF THE NAVY -- NAVAL HISTORICAL CENTER has a entire page with the USS Missouri (BB-63), Mediterranean Cruise, April 1946Looking from the distance you think the Yavuz is a simple cruiser instead of a battlecruiser.
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Post by simon darkshade on Sept 20, 2021 4:06:42 GMT
Somewhat ironic, given that ship sizes had risen in the interim 30 years to the vicinity of that level, in the form of the Des Moines, various Soviet designs and the larger British GW projects. As a broad rule, there is a sweet spot around 24,000-25,000t.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Sept 20, 2021 14:02:34 GMT
Somewhat ironic, given that ship sizes had risen in the interim 30 years to the vicinity of that level, in the form of the Des Moines, various Soviet designs and the larger British GW projects. As a broad rule, there is a sweet spot around 24,000-25,000t. True frigates are these days the size of destroyers and destroyers are sometimes the size of cruisers.
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Post by simon darkshade on Sept 20, 2021 15:01:56 GMT
The original TBDs were 250 tons, but grew and grew over time. By the 1930s, naval bean counters and Churchill alike were complaining that destroyers were pushing the size of cruisers, which of course was based on an idea of what the size of a cruiser was supposed to be. My point is that change and growth has been a constant since the dawn of the steel warship era, but got interrupted and artificially constrained by the WNT and LNT. By capping the size of destroyers, cruisers, battleships and carriers, they imposed certain psychological barriers on the size of ships that messed around with their ideal function. In prewar terms, the best size for an armoured cruiser/light battlecruisers/second class ship of the line would be 25,000t and a general purpose/light cruiser could be built on 12,000-15,000t. You don't really get any real cruisers built after the late 1940s, with only Long Beach giving an indication of the type of displacement you get for a proper cruiser-sized ship. Even then it is worth noting she was (briefly) a CLGN. When CG(X) was still a thing, we saw the 25,000t range rightly bandied around. Destroyer Destroyers were growing very quickly to the point that we reached the realm of the Darings and Mitschers by the late 1940s. That is a third sweet spot of ~4800-5000t, but only really for the early 1950s. The ideal 1960s 'destroyer' is actually the DLG that is the size of the Counties and Leahys. The old destroyer was dead. If we look at modern ships, the Sprucans, Burkes, Ticos, Sovremennys, Udaloys, Type 45s and 052Ds all fit in that bracket between 7500 and 9600t. That is what a destroyer is now. The issue is that ~8000t does bring with it a range of compromises and limitations. A fair bit can be gained by growth to the next spot of ~12000t, which is where the Red Chinese have gone with the Type 055. The USN calls these cruisers, but they are really the future of the destroyer. Frigate The ocean escort/frigate grew between 1945 and 1965 to hit that old destroyer sweet spot of ~4800t. There are some that are larger, like the Franco-Italian Horizons and Type 26s, but that is a bit of a case of upward creep. 4800-6400t is the best compromise range in my view. The ones that are under 4000t are too small, including the Anzacs and other Meko variants and are really corvettes in their capability; they are subject to limitations of speed, space, range, sensors and growth potential. You can build a decent corvette on 3200t, but how many states really need that? I don't think it is purely coincidental that we see a doubling in numbers. This is where we get to the Alaskas: The next point upwards is ~52,000t, which makes very little sense without aircraft. However, if we double that, we get to the size of a proper modern supercarrier. 50,000t is where you'd see capital ships pushing by 1930 without the WNT and its artificial constraints. We see that in the Iowas, Bismarck and Vanguard at normal displacement, not the 'standard displacement' invented for Washington. The issue for capital ships is that the ultimate 1940 'proper' displacement gives ships the size of Montana, Yamato, Sovetskiy Soyuz, H41 and the latter Lions iterations, which come with accompanying costs of infrastructure and related challenges and also knock out France and Italy from being able to compete at the top rank of naval powers; one could even argue that the Germans are also locked out. Alaska is a bit above an unrestricted heavy cruiser, yet gets called battlecruiser without justification. Even CA2-D www.history.navy.mil/our-collections/photography/numerical-list-of-images/nhhc-series/s-file/S-511-6.html isn't a battlecruiser. They can't really compete and that was acknowledged at the time. Interestingly, the USN wasn't the only navy that fell victim to this 'design creep' with the Soviets starting off with the decent 220mm heavy cruisers and ending up with the underweight Stalingrads.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Sept 20, 2021 15:06:36 GMT
The original TBDs were 250 tons, but grew and grew over time. By the 1930s, naval bean counters and Churchill alike were complaining that destroyers were pushing the size of cruisers, which of course was based on an idea of what the size of a cruiser was supposed to be. My point is that change and growth has been a constant since the dawn of the steel warship era, but got interrupted and artificially constrained by the WNT and LNT. By capping the size of destroyers, cruisers, battleships and carriers, they imposed certain psychological barriers on the size of ships that messed around with their ideal function. In prewar terms, the best size for an armoured cruiser/light battlecruisers/second class ship of the line would be 25,000t and a general purpose/light cruiser could be built on 12,000-15,000t. You don't really get any real cruisers built after the late 1940s, with only Long Beach giving an indication of the type of displacement you get for a proper cruiser-sized ship. Even then it is worth noting she was (briefly) a CLGN. When CG(X) was still a thing, we saw the 25,000t range rightly bandied around. Destroyer Destroyers were growing very quickly to the point that we reached the realm of the Darings and Mitschers by the late 1940s. That is a third sweet spot of ~4800-5000t, but only really for the early 1950s. The ideal 1960s 'destroyer' is actually the DLG that is the size of the Counties and Leahys. The old destroyer was dead. If we look at modern ships, the Sprucans, Burkes, Ticos, Sovremennys, Udaloys, Type 45s and 052Ds all fit in that bracket between 7500 and 9600t. That is what a destroyer is now. The issue is that ~8000t does bring with it a range of compromises and limitations. A fair bit can be gained by growth to the next spot of ~12000t, which is where the Red Chinese have gone with the Type 055. The USN calls these cruisers, but they are really the future of the destroyer. Frigate The ocean escort/frigate grew between 1945 and 1965 to hit that old destroyer sweet spot of ~4800t. There are some that are larger, like the Franco-Italian Horizons and Type 26s, but that is a bit of a case of upward creep. 4800-6400t is the best compromise range in my view. The ones that are under 4000t are too small, including the Anzacs and other Meko variants and are really corvettes in their capability; they are subject to limitations of speed, space, range, sensors and growth potential. You can build a decent corvette on 3200t, but how many states really need that? I don't think it is purely coincidental that we see a doubling in numbers. This is where we get to the Alaskas: The next point upwards is ~52,000t, which makes very little sense without aircraft. However, if we double that, we get to the size of a proper modern supercarrier. 50,000t is where you'd see capital ships pushing by 1930 without the WNT and its artificial constraints. We see that in the Iowas, Bismarck and Vanguard at normal displacement, not the 'standard displacement' invented for Washington. The issue for capital ships is that the ultimate 1940 'proper' displacement gives ships the size of Montana, Yamato, Sovetskiy Soyuz, H41 and the latter Lions iterations, which come with accompanying costs of infrastructure and related challenges and also knock out France and Italy from being able to compete at the top rank of naval powers; one could even argue that the Germans are also locked out. Alaska is a bit above an unrestricted heavy cruiser, yet gets called battlecruiser without justification. Even CA2-D www.history.navy.mil/our-collections/photography/numerical-list-of-images/nhhc-series/s-file/S-511-6.html isn't a battlecruiser. They can't really compete and that was acknowledged at the time. Interestingly, the USN wasn't the only navy that fell victim to this 'design creep' with the Soviets starting off with the decent 220mm heavy cruisers and ending up with the underweight Stalingrads. So the Alaska's where more heavy cruisers instead of battlecruisers.
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Post by simon darkshade on Sept 20, 2021 15:08:20 GMT
Yes, they were heavy cruisers that grew too large and confused people as to their role. A 35,000t CB doesn't get a lot of extras that aren't present on a 25,000t CA.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Sept 20, 2021 15:10:32 GMT
Yes, they were heavy cruisers that grew too large and confused people as to their role. A 35,000t CB doesn't get a lot of extras that aren't present on a 25,000t CA. So who could they be sold to, Turkey would be a good candidate as mentioned before, would Brazil want one ore what about Australia, to big for them.
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Post by simon darkshade on Sept 20, 2021 15:15:36 GMT
The scrapyards.
Turkey really, really could not afford it. They didn't need it, didn't have the crews and, importantly, it would destabilise the Eastern Med and the Greeks in one fell swoop. Just because the Turks nominally had a ship that was obsolete in 1914 tied up alongside for a few years doesn't put them into the category of major navies. They were and are a destroyer/submarine fleet without the need for any power projection.
Brazil's largest ships post WW2 were carriers and a Brooklyn. The Americans were not interested in any arms race in South America beyond the unimportant.
The RAN was pushed to man its carriers in the 1940s and 1950s and didn't really operate its cruisers. No chance.
There is a bit of a mistaken idea in some amateur wargaming circles that some nations, because they operated large warships in the first decade of the 20th century, were suited to doing so 40 years later.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Sept 20, 2021 15:17:50 GMT
There is a bit of a mistaken idea in some amateur wargaming circles that some nations, because they operated large warships in the first decade of the 20th century, were suited to doing so 40 years later. As things had shifted towards carriers which the British had plenty off to sell.
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Post by simon darkshade on Sept 20, 2021 15:27:38 GMT
Yes, exactly. There wasn't a perceived need for new heavy gunships at that time against that particular threat,
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