stevep
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Post by stevep on Dec 11, 2020 14:16:54 GMT
Steve, A.) You are right in terms of not causing damage, but police lions (having been moved out of frontline military use) have something more of an intimidating effect. If the average rioter sees a dozen 6ft tall roaring lions charging towards them, they will soon become mobile. There are a range of non-lethal weapons and spells that are deployed before lions. B.) They are under quite tight control; they don't engage in excesses so much as prosecute their specialist areas (witchcraft, necromancy, demonology, black magic, human sacrifice, occultism, Satanism and creation of homuncli, among others) very, very zealously. Simon
As long as the lions know when to stop as their natural instincts would be to chase fleeing prey. That would be the fear, or that they couldn't be controlled in riot type situation, i.e. with a lot of noise, possibly also smells especially of blood etc. If their that large as well they must take a fortune to feed, especially as I doubt their vegans.  |
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Post by simon darkshade on Dec 12, 2020 5:33:13 GMT
They are well trained talking beasts that don’t go fully animalistic in battle or law enforcement scenarios. The military use of big cats (in a fashion similar to their use in Narnia in the novels) has naturally declined from the mid 19th century, but this purpose still gives them a job.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Dec 12, 2020 11:24:06 GMT
They are well trained talking beasts that don’t go fully animalistic in battle or law enforcement scenarios. The military use of big cats (in a fashion similar to their use in Narnia in the novels) has naturally declined from the mid 19th century, but this purpose still gives them a job.
Ah so their more intelligent magical creatures than related to normal lions. That would make a significant difference.  |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Dec 12, 2020 11:35:22 GMT
The Icelanders had not presented any substantial disruption to British fishing in their waters since the business of several years ago, Are we speaking of the Darkearth version of the first, second and third cod Wars. |
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Post by simon darkshade on Dec 12, 2020 16:55:51 GMT
First one, but very different paradigm
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Post by simon darkshade on Dec 13, 2020 9:30:08 GMT
To expand:
The First Cod War of 1958-1961 is the only such @ conflict of the Cod Wars that bears a resemblance to the Dark Earth situation, which was resolved sooner with a great deal more force and threat employed. Among the most significant differences are the sheer power imbalance between Britain and Iceland and the considerable presence of British and Canadian troops on Iceland; the latter does also cut both ways.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Dec 13, 2020 9:37:33 GMT
To expand: The First Cod War of 1958-1961 is the only such @ conflict of the Cod Wars that bears a resemblance to the Dark Earth situation, which was resolved sooner with a great deal more force and threat employed. Among the most significant differences are the sheer power imbalance between Britain and Iceland and the considerable presence of British and Canadian troops on Iceland; the latter does also cut both ways. And i toughed Iceland had a change. |
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Post by simon darkshade on Dec 13, 2020 9:50:36 GMT
They are well trained talking beasts that don’t go fully animalistic in battle or law enforcement scenarios. The military use of big cats (in a fashion similar to their use in Narnia in the novels) has naturally declined from the mid 19th century, but this purpose still gives them a job.
Ah so their more intelligent magical creatures than related to normal lions. That would make a significant difference. It certainly does. The issue of talking beasts is one that won’t ever come up in the Book of Beasts, being quite straightforward, but is part of my thinking on how fantastical creatures would fit in a modern world. In the “stereotypical eternally medieval fantasy world”, of which there are thousands, various species can have their own niche. In a much more advanced and human dominated world, that doesn’t really work. In some of my future planned entries, we will explore some of the consequences and roles they have. Talking beasts have a number of possible uses: security, law enforcement and some military roles come to mind immediately. Entertainment and circuses may be beneath the dignity of many. |
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Post by simon darkshade on Dec 13, 2020 10:05:20 GMT
To expand: The First Cod War of 1958-1961 is the only such @ conflict of the Cod Wars that bears a resemblance to the Dark Earth situation, which was resolved sooner with a great deal more force and threat employed. Among the most significant differences are the sheer power imbalance between Britain and Iceland and the considerable presence of British and Canadian troops on Iceland; the latter does also cut both ways. And i toughed Iceland had a change. It depends what you mean here: change or chance. Have they had a change? Yes, Iceland is a somewhat different place, has a monarch and a few more natural resources. Did they have a chance? None whatsoever in a conventional sense. Politically, their major card (threatening withdrawal from the Atlantic Alliance) simply wasn’t there given that 1958 falls right in the middle of the post 1956 rupture in Anglo-American relations. Given what Britain did in Egypt, Syria and Iraq just two years before, there was significantly more bite to their actions and threats. However, there was a willingness to find a deal on both sides. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Dec 13, 2020 10:09:17 GMT
And i toughed Iceland had a change. It depends what you mean here: change or chance. Have they had a change? Yes, Iceland is a somewhat different place, has a monarch and a few more natural resources. Did they have a chance? None whatsoever in a conventional sense. Politically, their major card (threatening withdrawal from the Atlantic Alliance) simply wasn’t there given that 1958 falls right in the middle of the post 1956 rupture in Anglo-American relations. Given what Britain did in Egypt, Syria and Iraq just two years before, there was significantly more bite to their actions and threats. However, there was a willingness to find a deal on both sides. Thanks for both answers simon darkshade. |
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Post by simon darkshade on Dec 14, 2020 4:14:00 GMT
Notes from Part 7:
- The deployment of ground troops to Australia is largely a symbolic gesture, as any real Indonesian threat would be handled in the air and on/under the sea. However, it is in line with previous plans discussed in 1960.
- Tensions in the Far East continue to climb with the whole region seemingly embroiled in various campaigns that are part of the broader general conflict.
- Red Indonesia has a sizeable military force and it continues to grow.
- The Congo is going to start to escalate further in the final years of the decade.
- Aden offers an opportunity to demonstrate British power, resolution and basic ruthlessness. However, if that works in a short term perspective, it could well create some 'interesting' long term issues. It will see use of light, medium and heavy forces, although there isn't
- One off-hand reference that I slipped in was the notion of multiple Battles of Algiers, rather than the single engagement from @.
- Postwar Britain's drive towards self-sufficiency in food does come with some interesting political costs and consequences, but it very much driven by the spectre of the two U-Boat campaigns. For a variety of reasons, including some detailed in earlier entries, there is increasing attention paid to a protracted war.
- Here, the butter mountains and milk lakes are not a function of EEC subsidies, but are being directed towards overseas distribution and stockpiling.
- The fishing fleet is substantially larger, even counting scaling for size, reflecting the role of Ireland, Lyonesse and the Faroes.
- With smaller general patterns of immigration, there haven't been the same social issues that came as a result, at least not on the scale of @. No Notting Hill riots.
- Some parts of the updated plans for civil unrest come from consideration of some of the problems experienced on the Continent. There is a general preference for avoiding the use of tanks, given their increasing size and the damage they would cause to streets, in favour of wheeled armoured vehicles.
- Special Patrol Groups are used by other forces as well as the Met.
- Special Wizardry and Tactics = SWAT
- Crime is quite low for social and cultural reasons.
- The Witchfinder General's Office is quite widely feared.
- "Tough on crime and tough on the causes of crime"
- The reference to a cook seconded to Number 10 comes from Yes Prime Minister. One of Jim Hacker's first great achievements.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Dec 14, 2020 15:43:21 GMT
Notes from Part 7: - The deployment of ground troops to Australia is largely a symbolic gesture, as any real Indonesian threat would be handled in the air and on/under the sea. However, it is in line with previous plans discussed in 1960. - Tensions in the Far East continue to climb with the whole region seemingly embroiled in various campaigns that are part of the broader general conflict. - Red Indonesia has a sizeable military force and it continues to grow. - The Congo is going to start to escalate further in the final years of the decade. - Aden offers an opportunity to demonstrate British power, resolution and basic ruthlessness. However, if that works in a short term perspective, it could well create some 'interesting' long term issues. It will see use of light, medium and heavy forces, although there isn't- One off-hand reference that I slipped in was the notion of multiple Battles of Algiers, rather than the single engagement from @. - Postwar Britain's drive towards self-sufficiency in food does come with some interesting political costs and consequences, but it very much driven by the spectre of the two U-Boat campaigns. For a variety of reasons, including some detailed in earlier entries, there is increasing attention paid to a protracted war. - Here, the butter mountains and milk lakes are not a function of EEC subsidies, but are being directed towards overseas distribution and stockpiling. - The fishing fleet is substantially larger, even counting scaling for size, reflecting the role of Ireland, Lyonesse and the Faroes. - With smaller general patterns of immigration, there haven't been the same social issues that came as a result, at least not on the scale of @. No Notting Hill riots. - Some parts of the updated plans for civil unrest come from consideration of some of the problems experienced on the Continent. There is a general preference for avoiding the use of tanks, given their increasing size and the damage they would cause to streets, in favour of wheeled armoured vehicles. - Special Patrol Groups are used by other forces as well as the Met. - Special Wizardry and Tactics = SWAT - Crime is quite low for social and cultural reasons. - The Witchfinder General's Office is quite widely feared. - "Tough on crime and tough on the causes of crime" - The reference to a cook seconded to Number 10 comes from Yes Prime Minister. One of Jim Hacker's first great achievements.
Interesting points. I think the section above is missing something at the end? Of course ruthlessness may work in the short term but can cause problems later on, especially if the community being treated that way is part of a much, much larger one. [Both nationally [Arab], linguistically [speaker of Arabic] and religiously [Muslims].
Steve
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Post by simon darkshade on Dec 14, 2020 16:27:03 GMT
Steve,
The missing section was where I was going to talk about heavy forces, so should read:
“...although there isn’t much scope for the use of tanks or heavy artillery beyond the initial shock and awe phase.”
Given that the various rebel groups in Aden and across the border in Yemen don’t have anything that can knock out a Chieftain, their use is very much overkill.
It definitely presents some longer term problems in the Middle East/Arab world, but Barton is coming at the issue from the position of a Briton of the time - he was born and raised before the war and as such regarded the Arabs as a less sophisticated and rather primitive desert people. The stereotypes of them respecting strength and hard power and being very keen for money still exist through much of British society; there is certainly a big and glaring cultural prejudice. There is a lack of respect.
However, whilst they are definitely prejudiced and look down upon them, the British aren’t stupid and have learned a thing or two about empire building. The escalation in Aden will take the form of a very publicised and public arrival of a large force by sea and air, involving fly overs by dozens of fighters and heavy bombers; battleships, cruisers and aircraft carriers offshore; and a big show of force with troops being marched through sections of Aden (with overwatch and ambush preparation). This will be followed by some very heavy handed blows against rebel positions up country, including fire missions from offshore, and the resulting strikes will be filmed and used in propaganda newsreels across not only Southern Arabia, but the wider region. The main part of operations will come in the form of counter insurgency, public presence missions/patrols and psyops.
All of this is designed to make others think twice about tangling with them. A mind game, as it were.
It isn’t entirely unprecedented, when we consider the British use of Warspite and Barham to blockade the Alexandria Customs House in the 1920s, the Anglo-Zanzibar War of 1896, the Don Pacifico affair and other such examples of gunboat diplomacy.
The problem is that the Arabs may react and that they may not always be quite as powerless.
Simon
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Post by simon darkshade on Dec 15, 2020 19:17:30 GMT
A point to note:
Because of the escalation in Vietnam and the stand off with Indonesia, the Aden operation went on the back burner in 1965 and 1966. When it occurs in 1967, it is slightly beyond the scope of this story, but I may include a snippet on it, perhaps in the form of a newspaper article and the account of a Soviet attaché.
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Post by simon darkshade on Dec 21, 2020 13:54:40 GMT
A little preview of the next chapter:
A New Jerusalem Part 8
November 15th 1964
Remarks by Prime Minister Stanley Barton at the School of Oriental Studies
"It is not for nothing that we call the lands of the Near East, the most ancient in the story of man. These are the lands that have seen countless strife, the rise and fall of empires unnumbered and the greatest events of history. This is the site of the Garden of Eden, of the Great Flood, of the kingdom of Solomon and the birthplaces of Abraham and Mahomet. Here is the ground that Christ walked upon. The lands have been holy, but the wars that have wracked them have not been. For too long, this most ancient land of peace has been reduced to a waste by the callow designs of kings and emperors lost to time just as mighty Ozymandias is but a memory of a memory.
Yet now, in these last two decades, we have seen somethings new. Prosperity. The opportunity for the advancement of mankind. The desert blooming. Peace. These are gains that we should not and will not idly put aside. Here, in this part of God's Earth where three great faiths have collided and wrought centuries of blood, they coexist. This is something we should not and will not idly put aside.
We have seen the noble Arab peoples, so long held under the boots and sandles of conquering rulers from elsewhere, find their own destiny, rule their own sovereign great nations and unite in a union of peace and glory. In the ancient land between the two rivers, the fields grow where they have been desolate and fallow for millenia. The sons of the desert can now enjoy both the fruits of security and the wealth of their lands fairly and justly.
We have seen the Jewish people return to their ancient homeland and rebuild their own home for the first time in almost twenty centuries. In but a short time, a great nation has emerged, proud and free, standing alongside the cause of liberty in our troubled world. There has been peace and understanding where some would have sought war and because of that, the words written in the Book have come to pass and the deserts have bloomed. It has been shown that men can live together.
All this has come to pass not through the harsh and iron fist of domination, but through the protection of the British Empire. We have been a fair arbiter and judge and protector of the realms of the Levant, whatever their race, whatever their faith. When external powers and threats, such as the evil spectre of Communism that now menaces the whole world or the vileness of Nazism that has rightly been blasted into the ash heap of history, have tried to cast their loathsome shadow over these holy lands, our Empire has stood against them. We fought them and beat them then and we will do so again should ever they return.
The world is changing and our role is changing. Britain welcomes the new states of the Middle East to the ranks of the free as they grow now to their strength and maturity. Where once we lead and guided, we now walk together as equals and as allies. Yet this has been won with much pain, much treasure and much blood. We will continue to offer our hand in friendship and in protection.
We have peace in these lands. This is something we should not and will not idly put aside."
November 19th 1964
Universal Newsreel
"Once again, the spotlight of the world swings to Washington D.C. with the arrival of Britain's new Prime Minister, Stanley Barton, at Washington National Airport. The new PM has already been making a stir at home and this continued when he arrived in this country, flying into the capital on board his personal RAF Hawker-Siddeley Concord supersonic jet. There he is, accompanied by Mrs. Barton, Foreign Secretary Anthony Crosland and other key officials, coming down the red carpet to be met by Secretary of State Finch. The Prime Minister is also accompanied by the members of the Imperial Chiefs of Staff Committee who are scheduled to meet with their United States counterparts tomorrow.
(Instrumental interlude of God Save the Queen and The Star Spangled Banner)
After the anthems and review of the Presidential Guard, resplendent in their ceremonial uniforms, Mr. Barton spoke
"I thank you very much for your welcome. I look forward to the opportunity to further our mutual efforts for peace and security in the world today for all of our tomorrows. The bond of friendship between Britain and the United States is so strong that it may prove to be the foundation of that peace and that hope. Through understanding our common ties and our many differences, we shall all strive for the betterment of all mankind. There are no limits to our new horizons when we work together."
And now we see him being whisked away in his Rolls-Royce, accompanied by a grand motorcade of Scotland Yard and the Secret Service. All of us wish Mr. Barton well with his visit."
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