simon darkshade
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Post by simon darkshade on Mar 2, 2022 21:22:14 GMT
Scotland 14.6 million Ireland 12.4 million Wales 7.3 million Lyonesse 6.2 million England 85.5 million
England is under-represented to some extent, but many of the rural seats are fairly large in some areas. They are due for a boost which has been anticipated.
There are some voting hobbits and dwarves, but others of the latter live outside of the ‘system’.
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Post by simon darkshade on Mar 3, 2022 9:30:34 GMT
Looking at the @ populations of 2021 and the raw scaled numbers in brackets
Ireland and Northern Ireland are ~ 7 million (11.2) Scotland is ~5.5 million (8.8) Wales is 3.2 million (5.12) England is ~ 57 million (91.2)
We get some interesting results.
- Ireland is around the mark - Wales is 50% larger - Scotland is 165% of the inflated level - England is below where it might be
The figures are from 1960, so there has been 8 years of growth and change since that number.
Why does Scotland have such a larger population? Cities.
“ Scotland is an industrial and agricultural country of 14.6 million is balanced between the large population centres of Glasgow (3.5 million), Edinburgh (1.6 million), Aberdeen (1.1 million) and Dundee (0.8 million) and the smaller towns, cities and villages.”
Glasgow: 3500 vs 1800 Edinburgh 1600 vs 465 Aberdeen 1100 vs 200 Dundee 800 vs 170
Over time, Scotland has seen Glasgow supplant Dublin as the “second city of the Empire” and her other chief cities grow to what we can term ‘the next level.’ Their growth has been in the suburban areas, where smaller outlying towns have been absorbed.
In England, London has hit its practical peak (it is really Greater London by this point, if not by name), whilst Birmingham, Manchester and Liverpool are expanding gradually. The big bolters are Sheffield, Newcastle, Bradford and Middlesbrough; in the last case, Teesside is really booming.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Mar 3, 2022 16:21:06 GMT
Looking at the @ populations of 2021 and the raw scaled numbers in brackets Ireland and Northern Ireland are ~ 7 million (11.2) Scotland is ~5.5 million (8.8) Wales is 3.2 million (5.12) England is ~ 57 million (91.2) We get some interesting results. - Ireland is around the mark - Wales is 50% larger - Scotland is 165% of the inflated level - England is below where it might be The figures are from 1960, so there has been 8 years of growth and change since that number. Why does Scotland have such a larger population? Cities. “ Scotland is an industrial and agricultural country of 14.6 million is balanced between the large population centres of Glasgow (3.5 million), Edinburgh (1.6 million), Aberdeen (1.1 million) and Dundee (0.8 million) and the smaller towns, cities and villages.” Glasgow: 3500 vs 1800 Edinburgh 1600 vs 465 Aberdeen 1100 vs 200 Dundee 800 vs 170 Over time, Scotland has seen Glasgow supplant Dublin as the “second city of the Empire” and her other chief cities grow to what we can term ‘the next level.’ Their growth has been in the suburban areas, where smaller outlying towns have been absorbed. In England, London has hit its practical peak (it is really Greater London by this point, if not by name), whilst Birmingham, Manchester and Liverpool are expanding gradually. The big bolters are Sheffield, Newcastle, Bradford and Middlesbrough; in the last case, Teesside is really booming.
Thanks. I hadn't realised the current population for the island of Ireland was so high. Remember it being ~3-3.5M in the south and ~1.5M in the north in my youth and thought it had been fairly static for a long while but something of a growth since then.
In DE terms Scotland is larger than Ireland demographically but not by a massive amount and with the continuation of heavy industry longer in the Scottish central belt I could see that occurring, especially since that means its probably continued to import migrants from Ireland rather than export workers as OTL.
Steve
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Post by simon darkshade on Mar 4, 2022 5:48:52 GMT
Steve, Scotland has had a very good 20th Century with heavy industry and earlier exploitation of North Sea oil and gas. Migration has declined from the 18th and 19th centuries and a bit over roughly half of the @ 2.75 million leaving Scotland. upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/47/ScottishPop1801-2011.jpgThe line in that graph did not flatten after 1911 as it did in @, but has continued the same steady direction on top of a larger base; the fewer deaths from the Black Death add up. Simon
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Post by simon darkshade on Apr 15, 2022 16:01:31 GMT
Whilst ANJ is finished, I'm just popping this bit here for now. It is the first part of the Committee of Imperial Defence meeting referred to in this story, setting up what happens next as a bit of a bridge between ANJ and the future. I'm not sure where it will go, as it is a bit one dimensional for a stand along piece.
“How many meetings like this have you done before, Sir Richard?”
Now there was a bit of irony, even if it was unconscious thought Hannay.
“Not many at all, Prime Minister. The Special Full Meeting has tended to be more of a extraordinary measure in times of war and crisis, so the first one came in 1950, then ‘56 and 60. The other full meetings have come during the Imperial Conferences as part of the general roundtables.”
“Well, this is far from the likes of those three years. Hopefully it gives us the means to avoid a fourth one of them.”
“Indeed Prime Minister.” He gave a quick look around the Cabinet Office Briefing Room. This would be the last time that the Committee of Imperial Defence met in this particular chamber, as it’s larger and more secure successor had been completed in the new bunker beneath their current level. The four crystal screens on the opposite wall showed the participants from North America, India, the Levant, Southern Africa, Australasia in attendance, so, with a nod to Sir Obo and without further ado, Sir Richard Hannay began the meeting.
“Good morning, Your Royal Highness, Prime Minister, My Lords and gentlemen. We shall commence this Special Full Meeting of the Committee of Imperial Defence. It has been called by Prime Minister Barton to discuss and review the coordinated defence policy and strategy of the Empire in the light of the war in Viet Nam and the other significant changes that have occurred since the Defence Review of 1961. Prime Minister?”
“My thanks to you, Sir Richard. We are on the cusp of the midpoint of this decade. What we set ourselves to here today will guide us forward for the rest of it. We shall set our the challenge, our response, how we need to go forward together on land, sea and in the air and how and where we can coordinate our production and resources. Her Majesty’s Government in the United Kingdom wishes to provide the best possible picture of our intent and design to our great Commonwealth Dominions over the seas so that, together, we can be united and victorious, as we ever have been before.
That’s the aim. To put it simply, we need to rearm and to rearm efficiently. We’ve got to modernise our armed forces, paying for the new generation of weapons and equipment whilst building up the capacity needed in crisis and, heaven forfend, wartime. In Britain, we’re going to reverse the course we’ve taken since 1961. The Chancellor of the Exchequer can expand upon the economic and fiscal basis for our policy.”
“Yes Prime Minister. The decision made by the last government in 1960 has reduced defence spending from 12.5% to 9.9% of gross domestic product over these last four years. That managed to achieve their goal of funding the key strategic weapons programmes in that period, but at the cost of part of our conventional capacity, funding of our reserves and not keeping up with the effects of inflation. We don’t face an inordinate problem with the latter, but in broad terms we have a 10% reduction in the true value of the budget over that time. This is the first facet of the issue that confronts us - we get slightly less power for our pound.
Compounding this is the rising unit cost of our basic types of equipment - tanks, guns, armoured personnel carriers and small arms are all costing noticeably more and this is writ large in flaming letters for aircraft and ships. What’s new is two additional factors - the guided missile, which we are told by the services that we need in ever larger numbers; and replacement of our wartime and Korean War fleets of support vehicles.
To accomodate these needs, we will have to boost defence spending on an annualised basis in real terms over the next five years. In combination with our programme for growth and investment, this will deliver a definite rise in what we can afford to procure and what we can afford to do. In the absence of a major war in that time, such a policy will deliver considerable growth whilst working under the hard cap of 10% that we at the Treasury have agreed upon.”
Healey delivered his analysis in a flat voice that was almost forced. The Treasury had lost this particular battle, having proposed far more measured increases in raw funding, even if there was a useful benefit of increased tax receipts from the profits made by the major defence conglomerates. In Britain, arms and the state were very closely entwined in a multiplicity of ways and the electoral and political utility of increased orders for the shipyards, steelworks and arsenals of the North and the aircraft and automotive factories of the Midlands had been too popular in the Cabinet, at least this time. Barton’s Grand Design was a logical one, albeit very ambitious, and carried in it the prospect of being able to do more with less once the engines of national growth were turning fully.
“Right. That’s what we are going to be spending. We need to increase what we are doing as the international threat has grown faster than we have over the last 4 years. Prior to the last Defence Review, the previous government did countenance that the Soviets had a larger economy than we estimated and that they would grow faster than expected. In that, they were right. The consequences of us treading water in that time are problematic, but not insoluble. Admiral Mountbatten, would you provide us with the strategic picture as it currently stands and how we are positioned?”
“Yes, Prime Minister. As of the beginning of 1965, the Soviets will have an arsenal of well over 10,000 nuclear warheads, with an estimated quarter of those being strategic or semi-strategic. They outnumber the Empire in long range ballistic missiles by over 150 and their current production is focused on the heavyweight SS-9 Scarp and SS-10 Scrag. There are indications that they have a solid fueled LRBM under development and that they are studying the possibility of mobile missiles. The Soviet Long Range Cruise Missile programme is the most advanced in the world and of their 180 Buryas and 120 Burans, perhaps 60 present a threat to Britain, whilst the bulk of their numbers are focused on North America. Our main defence against the LRBM is to be Violet Friend, but our current deployment is limited to 40 missiles at this point. Once our full defensive force is in place, we project that we can successfully intercept up to 200 inbound targets with our ground based weapons; we are planning on upgrading our newer battleships with improved versions of the Triumph that can assist in the anti-ballistic missile role plus a potential airborne component.
We estimate they field 608 MRBMs, made up of 480 SS-4s and 228 SS-5s, with a new mobile missile, the SS-14 expected to be deployed next year; between 160 and 250 of these are targeted on . There are indications that they will start phasing out the older SS-4s deployed in soft sites over the next few years, which will dramatically increase their relative protection and decrease their reaction time. Currently, we have a two hour warning that they are being fueled, which is sufficient time for a pre-emptive strike with our Black Arrows and White Knights or with the TSR-2s. With silo basing, that figure is cut to perhaps 15-20 minutes if they are in high alert condition, which they can hold for 48 hours. That in itself is a considerable escalation of the Soviet threat to the British Isles, albeit measured by our missile defences. Our information indicates that up to 50 missiles are positioned to target India from the Uzbek SSR, but these are of the older type on soft sites and countered by our proposed Black Arrow deployment and sales, in addition to the extension of the defensive missile shield. There are no indications of Soviet targeting of medium ranged missiles on any of the other Commonwealth Dominions at this time, although it is expected that as their production rate increases, some of their newer weapons would be targeted on Israel.
In terms of bombers, the Soviets have over 500 intercontinental Tu-95 Bears and 360 Bounders, which are primarily aimed at North America, and a residual force of approximately 250 Bisons for use against Western Europe, China and India. The Bears are in the class of the Vulcan and B-52, the Bounders in that of the Vengeance and B-58 and the Bisons are akin to the Valiants and B-47s. The Bisons are on their way out by the end of the decade on current indications, but the other two are our ongoing worries. All three can be effectively engaged by our RAF and Commonwealth fighter forces, but their newer supersonic developments are more concerning. The Sukhoi Su-100 is entering production this year and is a supersonic reconnaissance/strike bomber with a very long range; at this stage, only a limited deployment is planned, indicating some potential issues with it. The Tupolev Tu-100 'Barbarian' is our most vexing concern, as it straddles the line between a theatre weapon and a strategic one by virtue of its combat radius of over 2000 miles, and it combines this with a challenging top speed of 1700 mph; there is also a naval strike version under development which we and the Americans have given the reporting code name 'Backfire'. Their theatre bomber force of Blinders and Badgers is decisively outmatched by our fighters and surface-to-air guided missile defences in Europe and the British Isles; as our Continental allies modernise their fighter forces, this deficiency will only be exacerbated. The Soviets know this as well and are looking to replace them with the Barbarian, shifting the legacy force to their Naval Aviation, and with a new Sukhoi interdiction strike bomber in the class of the F-111 and Thunderbolt. This will lead to a decline in the numbers of the medium bomber threat against Britain, but an increase in its complexity.
Their strategic submarine force has advanced rapidly over the last few years, but remains fundamentally behind us and the Americans. Their 25 Golf class boats are obsolete and are equipped with the SS-N-4, which has a range of 300 nautical miles. The Reds did plan on upgrading them to their new SS-N-5s, which can be launched from underwater, but their range is also limited to 700 nautical miles and was apparently seen as of limited utility. They will start to leave service in 1967. Their more substantive threat is the 16 Hotels, 10 Indias and particularly the two new Yankee class bombers. The former two carry the SS-N-5, which by virtue of its range is going to be of less utility against the US and thus could well be redeployed against us and the Japanese. It is considered decidedly unlikely that they would deploy far enough south in the Atlantic or Pacific to threat Southern Africa or Australasia, as moving to those areas would take them through some of our key chokepoints, and we are yet to allow a Soviet submarine into the Indian Ocean without a tail. As of this morning, the four Red bombers at sea in our area each have one or more of our attack boats stalking them in addition to surface ships, aircraft and airships on station within striking distance. Currently, their SSGN fleet is primarily focused on anti-surface warfare and even their vestigal efforts to threaten us with their Whiskey class conversions have come to a halt as they've conceded that they can't slip a wartime diesel boat down into the North Sea, surface and spend 20 minutes preparing to fire. The Floating Fortresses have similarly killed them off on the North Atlantic flank. If they build new dedicated land attack submarines, we will have a substantial strategic warning prior to their commissioning to allow for development of a response.
We thus largely have the measure of the Soviet strategic threat at this time, with the caveats of their evolving medium range missile force and the limited shield against their longer range weapons.
Their next major threat comes from their tactical forces. The Red Army has increased its strength to 284 divisions, a rise of 28 since 1960, and are expected to rise to 300 by 1969. They now field a dozen airborne divisions and have 12 rifle divisions, raised as light infantry with a deliberate reduction mechanised transport; intelligence on their TOE suggests that they do not lack in artillery or helicopter support and are fairly lavishly supplied with modern light support vehicles. This new unit is intended for air or sea deployment beyond the immediate region of the Soviet Union and Warsaw Pact, suggesting their envisaged use in Asia and Africa alongside their airborne and naval infantry forces. They are also in the process of modernising four cavalry divisions, although we have conflicting reports on their equipment and use. In direct terms, the Soviets are raising a Tank Army to the Leningrad Military District and a further Combined Arms Army in the Archangelsk Military District. This, in combination with preparation for the formation of a Murmansk Military District, suggests a renewed Soviet emphasis on the Scandinavian theatre. There has been significant debate inside Stavka regarding the role of their mechanised corps. Their mechanised divisions were amalgamated with their old rifle divisions in the reforms of 1957/58, but the separate corps have been maintained, each being the approximate equivalent of two divisions. It does seem now that they were intended for use as mobile front level assets in the manner of cavalry-mechanised groups in the last war, but doctrinal shifts are putting them somewhat out of favour as the great wartime commanders begin to retire and die off. It is entirely possible that they may be reorganised as motor rifle divisions, which would present an apparent rise in numbers of Soviet divisions whilst not increasing their actual troop numbers.
Their equipment is also increasingly catching up on Western weapons systems in quality and lethality. They have replaced the T-55 with the T-62 in their frontline motor rifle divisions and the T-64 in their tank divisions in Eastern Europe, which shifts the general balance somewhat. Whereas one of the later model Centurions could match half a dozen T-55s and a Chieftain easily take on ten, their newer tanks even the odds markedly. Their new T-68 heavies further alter the equation and from what we can tell about their current pair of future tank projects, they will feature further incremental improvements. We are in front of them with tanks, but cannot afford to stand still even a day further. Their new armoured personnel carriers and mechanised infantry fighting vehicles constitute a much larger improvement to their current weapons and represent a considerable threat. In artillery and helicopters, they are also catching up, whilst they lead us in sheer numbers of tactical battlefield rockets. The Red Army is receiving more tactical nuclear weapons systems every year and countering these is an increasingly complex task.
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simon darkshade
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Post by simon darkshade on May 15, 2022 15:31:11 GMT
The Red Air Force presents a mounting tactical threat but they are still markedly behind in the air. Their Frontal Aviation is undergoing what for the Soviets can be considered rationalisation on a reduced number of planes - the MiG-21 in the general fighter role, the Su-21 strike fighter, the Su-17 fighter-bomber, the Il-42 sturmovik attack jet, their Yakovlev Yak-36 VSTOL attack fighter, the Il-54 strike bomber and the Yak-26 light bomber. With the exception of the Forger, Moscow is looking to export as many of these types as possible. However, all of those are established aircraft that we are confident we have the measure of. It is their newest planes that are raising our greatest concern. Biggles, could you expand?”
“The Reds are now developing or fielding what our intelligence has dubbed their ‘Big 4’. The MiG-23 multirole fighter is assessed as broadly in the class of the F-4 Phantom and superior to our Spectre. In operations over North Vietnam, it has proved formidable against escort fighters and our information is that it will be equally a handful over the battlefield. Sukhoi are working on an advanced swing-wing strike/interdiction fighter, tentatively classified as the Su-24, to match the Western Tornados, F-111s and Orages. Yakovlev have their Yak-27 single engine fighter-Bomber, which will augment rather than replace the Fitter and represents the Soviets’ first foray into the ‘battlefield fighter’ concept. However, the most concerning is the MiG-25 super fighter/interceptor. Initial reports and indications are that it is a world leader in performance power and the most agile Soviet fighter to date. Whilst we expect the interceptor variants for PVO Strany to have initial production priority, it will be coming to Frontal Aviation air superiority fighter regiments within two to three years. The general characteristics of these planes as known to use at the moment indicate that the current gap will be bridged by this next generation. We can counter them, but it will be costly. The other factor to take into account is the larger Soviet aircraft production capacity. Facing increased quality and quantity is a concern.”
“Thank you, Air Chief Marshal, a concern indeed.” Mountbatten shuffled his notes and continued. “Now, at sea, the Red Navy is making a concerted effort to catch up or even exceed us in numbers. Their foremost threat comes from their 58 active atomic subs and the two dozen under construction; our intelligence indicates they want a force of 120 fast attack boats in addition to their bombers and cruise missile subs. They have moved on in production from their first generation November and Echo class boats to the new Victor and Charlie classes and have a new design underway which we have assigned the code name Bravo. The latter are thought to be near equivalents to the early Drakes. They have 38 nuclear subs in the Northern Fleet and a further 9 in the Baltic, together comprising their major naval component that seriously concerns us due to its proximity.
Their older conventional boats are far less threatening in capacity against our current ASW forces and the Romeos and Whiskys still make up the bulk of those numbers. Their 118 Foxtrots present a greater challenge but are not a significant qualitative threat to our North Atlantic escort forces. Their newest design, the Tango class, appears to represent a great leap ahead of their predecessors. From the little we know so far, they are far larger and longer ranged, but have tear drop hulls and some sort of new auxiliary power for underwater endurance. Should they enter service and have that full range of characteristics, then they will present an additional threat. Our own monitoring operations suggest that the Quebec coastal boats would be employed in a defensive role, representing a shift from their intention to try and break into the North Sea.
They have a further two nuclear aircraft carriers nearing completion and a further two being built as well as the eight Minsk class CVAs. That gives them a current force of 12 modern carriers compared to our 15 British and 6 Commonwealth supercarriers, counting the five Maltas as frontline carriers. There are indications that they are going to dispose of their light fleets, but whether that takes the form of conversion to commando carriers, something else or just scrapping them remains to be seen. Their ship based aircraft remain inferior to our own, but they can deploy decent numbers.
Their battleline remains the core of their surface strength, with three new battlewagons and a further four on the ways or projected, in addition to the two incomplete Sovetsky Soyuz class that have recommenced work since 1962. They have retired the old Cominterns at last, freeing up their manpower for their modern fleet, but we know the Reds have a funny way of never considering a ship truly disposed of whilst it is still afloat. The Soviet amphibious battleship-carriers remain something of a curiosity mixed with threat. They have commissioned two new vessels since 1960, Svoboda and Proletarskiy, and assigned them to the Baltic and the Pacific Fleets; they seem to be somewhat averse to deploying them in the Mediterranean to date.
The Red battlecruiser fleet is large and they don’t seem to be in any great hurry to increase it, but there are indications that they are proceeding with the design of a class of nuclear battlecruisers to match their new supercarriers. There is construction underway in Poland, Romania and the GDR that is concerning to the regional balances of power. In terms of other cruisers, there are two new guided missile types under construction to replace the Chapayevs, one roughly Sverdlov size and one smaller that seems analogous to our proposed Town class DLGs. The Soviet cruiser force has always been an area of some concern due to their numbers, armament and relative modernity.
From there, the quality of the Red Fleet falls off. The Samarkands are decent ships, but the Skoryys are obsolete, just as the Kolas and Petyas don’t really compare to even our second class frigates. Moscow has elected for quantity over quality here and that has made them vulnerable to subsurface warfare just as much as aerial weapons. This principle extends on down to their light surface combatants and coastal forces, which are numerous and possessed of not inconsiderable firepower but with a glass chin. We have the ways, means and devices to handle them comfortably. Their Naval Infantry is sizeable and heavily equipped, but does not present a direct threat against Britain or the Dominions at this time due to distance and their lack of forward bases. They are a big issue for our Scandinavian allies as they are right on their frontline.
That then brings us to the final element of the Soviet Armed Forces and the newest - their Airborne Troops. They are an issue, as they have a dozen divisions plus a further four being raised and the air fleet to deliver them. They present a threat in every theatre as well as being theoretically capable of long range deployment into the likes of Africa. They have both numbers and firepower, as the Soviets were the first to start hardening and mechanising their airborne units, and present the only real force that can realistically threaten the British Isles with incursion.
In all, the USSR presents a multi-spectrum military threat to Britain and the entire Empire insofar as their conventional or tactical forces are concerned. This has increased dramatically since the end of the last war and particularly since the death of the elder Stalin.”
“Thank you, Admiral.” said Hannay with a gracious nod. “Russia is far from the only threat confronting us, but is unquestionably the largest and most significant - in short, it is the only global threat to the British Empire as a whole. China does present a regional challenge in the Far East and to India, but it is yet to project force beyond those areas in a meaningful fashion. Indonesia is a similar problem, albeit with the direct support from Moscow behooving one of their key satellites, and thus limited at present. Beyond that, we enter into the realms of potential threats, such as the Turks and the Arabs, which would accord us a decent degree of strategic warning should they shift in that direction. In all of those three cases, we can measure and quantify what is needed to counter them and add these factors to the calculations we must make regarding Moscow. Aside from these specific threats, it is the considered view of the Committee of Imperial Defence that no other major military threats can or will emerge within the next 10 years.”
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Post by simon darkshade on May 17, 2022 18:00:36 GMT
Some notes on the meeting thus far:
- The 1960 plan to stop the growth in defence expenditure worked. Unfortunately, it worked at the same time as three other factors: gradual inflation, the entry of a new and more expensive generation of weapons and the Soviets putting their foot to the floor. As such, the assumption that a bit of economy could be afforded without too much trouble didn’t quite turn out that way. The defence pound didn’t quite stretch as far as envisaged and this was principally manifested in conventional weapons. - As will be seen, the nuclear ‘modernisation’ worked, but at the same time as a shift in significance. - Once again, the Treasury comes off as the ‘loser’ in the Whitehall tussle, but this is more an illustration of how political power and priority is positioned slightly differently. This Labour Party is the military Keynesianists. - The Soviets are now clearly in front in overall nuclear terms and a bit less so in purely strategic ones, but both of these increase from here. - Their older ICBMs go out of service faster, replaced by some darn capable ones. - The MRBM conundrum is a genuinely worrying one; we’d call them IRBMs. The British response is threefold - defend against them, be prepared to pre-empt them and try and lessen their effectiveness with some complex tricks… - Bears and Bisons = not so much of a worry. Bounders = quite concerning. It is the new Soviet bombers that really create a threat. The Barbarian is somewhere between a Backfire and Blackjack, so is a heck of a worry and the Soviet Tu-125 Mach 3 strategic bomber project, whilst aimed more at North America, is perhaps twice as threatening again. - It is a little unclear here, as I wanted to convey an atmosphere of slightly muddled intelligence, but the Soviets have two planes in the Su-24/F-111 category: the Su-24 and the Su-26. The latter is an enlarged aircraft akin to the FB-111H in its ‘rough shape’. - The Red SSBN threat to Britain is at a low ebb and they need longer ranged missiles to have a chance. - The Red Army is developing more of a flexible capacity, at a not insignificant cost. Prior to 1957 in @, the Soviets did have a mixture of tank, mech, rifle, cavalry, air rifle/airborne and arty divisions and this is an interesting mix for my thinking; there may be some further nomenclature twists and turns to come as foreshadowed here… - Signs of a threat to Scandinavia are real ones and this leads to a response in forces, agreements and armament, as seen in the 1965-1969 timeline. - The Air Force section is straightforward, showing the concern at Moscow catching up. - British estimations on the Soviet sub fleet numbers are off, but their analysis of the classes is correct. The Tango class here will be rather more capable and threatening. - In carriers, battleships, battlecruisers and cruisers, the British picture is largely correct. The relative contempt for the destroyers and frigates is similarly accurate, with new ships needing a few more years to hit the fleet in decent numbers before the Soviet block obsolescence issue is resolved. As I’ve touched upon before, Moscow ended up mass producing/building a lot of DDs that would be exceptional for the 1940s in the 1948-1955 period and they have become painfully obsolescent much more quickly than could be anticipated. I’m not a surfer, but the Red Fleet picked the false wave to ride into shore, missing the next big one. - Hence their problem as expounded here:
“Destroyer Obsolescence, or A Study in Timing
A.) Obsolescent WW2 Destroyers 1964 USN: 64 Allen M. Sumner and 144 Gearing class destroyers RN: 80 Battle class destroyers MR: 26 WW2 Soviet Navy: 12 Gnevny class destroyers + 41 reserve
B.) 1950s DDs USN: 82 Forrest Sherman class MR: 20 Le Aventurier class Soviet Navy: 95 Skoryy class
C.) DD/DDGs USN: 100 (16 Mitscher, 25 Farragut, 59 Charles F. Adams) RN: 84 (A-K class) Soviet Navy: 70 (+ 25 x 4900t Neustrashimy DD/DL) MR: 29
The devil is in the detail. The Skoryys are decent Forrest Sherman sized ships, but have less margin for modernisation, both in their design and by virtue of their role as fleet screens and escorts. They were built in big numbers in the late 1940s-early 1950s, before the full lessons of the war and subsequent naval revolution could be fully felt. The Royal Navy built slowly but steadily and her early DDGs have a somewhat longer window of effective service life remaining.“
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Post by simon darkshade on May 21, 2022 18:52:06 GMT
“That’s the other side laid out, then. If we put in place the forces and structures to counter Russia globally, then they will also provide for the ability to deal with any of the minor players; for the time being, our best and most economic means to cover China is the combination of our strategic forces and what is in place in the Far East. If we examine Appendix J in the briefing document, we can see that the forces required for a full war against China without the use of strategic weapons are quite beyond our scope at the moment or indeed in the future.” Barton said tersely.
There was a momentary silence across the room as the men flipped through the pages before them, followed by a single low whistle.
“50 divisions? Hell’s teeth! What of India?” Sir Alexander Spencer, the Canadian Defence Minister, was one not normally given to exclamation, but did seem shocked.
“That estimate is in addition to the Indian Army, but is a worst case scenario. It breaks down to one field army on the North East Frontier, one on the neck of the Malay Peninsula, one up on the Tibetan border and a mobile reserve in Central India to reinforce any sector, in addition to reinforced garrisons in Malaya and Borneo. The Indians would have one reinforced field army on each of the Frontiers and another up in the Himalayas. The Chinese would be able to take Tibet, most of Burma and all of Indochina and Siam before we could stop them in a purely conventional campaign.” Field Marshal Sir Charles Keightley reeled off the list of losses dispassionately.
“And in one that was not conventional?”
“With our forces in the Far East and our land based missiles, in a bit over half an hour, we would be able to destroy over 500 targets in China Proper and Manchuria, eliminating their ability to support aggressive military action and removing them as a threat.” said Air Chief Marshal Sir John Grandy, AOC-I-C of Bomber Command.
“Give us ten years and the modern weapons we need and we will be able to do most of the job ourselves at home and be free to deploy forces beyond our immediate region.” Chief of the Indian Defence Staff Field Marshal Sir Sanjay Ramakrishnan said, adjusting his rakish eye patch. “I have 80 divisions marching on paper at the present, but can put perhaps half of those in the field with the weapons of the Korean War. In the air, we can more than match the Chinese right now; but on land, the matter is not as clear, at least until we get the right weapons.”
“You’ll get them. That much and more we will do. As it stands, though, we need to reach agreement on the best means to do so. In Britain, we are going to be increasing funding overall as a first step towards that. Now, we are committed together to increase our presence in South Vietnam and that could well last several years, but our principles are that the British deployment will be not be a limitless one, either in numbers or expenditure. We will fund our Vietnam operations separately from the defence budget with specific drawings from the Sinking Fund and other sources, in addition to the American subsidy. Our increased spending and rearmament will then focus on what we really need. Minister of Defence?”
“We are basing our force and equipment requirements on the principle of a heavy mechanised army in Europe with more mobile troops on the Scandinavian and Mediterranean flanks, smaller light and medium forces in the Middle East and Orient and a rapid deployment force at home that can go to any of our four planned contingency areas - India, the South Pacific, North America and Africa. In contrast to this focus, both the Navy and the RAF are to function as global forces, with an emphasis on missiles and multirole aircraft. Our stocks of weapons, equipment, fuel and matériel are all to be boosted, both to increase the reach and striking power of the Air Force and the Navy and to cement the staying power of the Army. Our ability to project large ground forces beyond Europe and the Mediterranean will be dependent on our reserve forces and being able to sustain their mobilisation.”
“And sustain it we will. Britain will keep her commitments to each of our Commonwealth Dominions and our kith and kin over the seas. Absolutely. Our position is more strained than in 1961, but we shall do what we need to do, together. The current system of regional Imperial commands and responsibilities is a sound one as it currently stands, but one plan we wish to raise today is the introduction of an intermediate force level between the local and the Imperial Strategic Reserve. Admiral Mountbatten can expand.”
“Yes, Prime Minister. Aside from the large reserves in the Middle East and Orient we currently have our system of Imperial Commands in Atlantic, Pacific, West Indies, Africa and other key areas, with a joint Fleet Unit, aerial strike wing and a regional brigade on stand by. These work effectively and provide for a first response force. What our studies have shown is a gap between this level of force and the multiple reinforced corps level of the ISR that would be filled by a rotational Commonwealth Division supported by a composite air group and a naval strike force based around an aircraft carrier battle group. This would not be entirely forward deployed unless operationally required, but the framework to constitute and support it would be put in place. Structurally, it would follow the pattern of the current unit in Singapore of rotating brigade headquarters and assigned battalions from the Dominions and colonies, whilst operational funding would be drawn from the British Commonwealth Reserve Fund.
The notion is that we would be able to have East Africa Command dealing with an internal disturbance in Tanganyika and Pacific Command carrying out deterrence operations in New Guinea in support of the Aussies whilst a division remains ready to reinforce either or to go to Central America or even Alaska on short notice. This still preserves the main part of our established reserve for their contingency mission, but if heavier support is needed, it can be provided by British airborne, infantry or Royal Marines forces currently assigned to the Spearhead Division role within 100 hours.”
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stevep
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Post by stevep on May 22, 2022 14:21:17 GMT
“That’s the other side laid out, then. If we put in place the forces and structures to counter Russia globally, then they will also provide for the ability to deal with any of the minor players; for the time being, our best and most economic means to cover China is the combination of our strategic forces and what is in place in the Far East. If we examine Appendix J in the briefing document, we can see that the forces required for a full war against China without the use of strategic weapons are quite beyond our scope at the moment or indeed in the future.” Barton said tersely. There was a momentary silence across the room as the men flipped through the pages before them, followed by a single low whistle. “50 divisions? Hell’s teeth! What of India?” Sir Alexander Spencer, the Canadian Defence Minister, was one not normally given to exclamation, but did seem shocked. “That estimate is in addition to the Indian Army, but is a worst case scenario. It breaks down to one field army on the North East Frontier, one on the neck of the Malay Peninsula, one up on the Tibetan border and a mobile reserve in Central India to reinforce any sector, in addition to reinforced garrisons in Malaya and Borneo. The Indians would have one reinforced field army on each of the Frontiers and another up in the Himalayas. The Chinese would be able to take Tibet, most of Burma and all of Indochina and Siam before we could stop them in a purely conventional campaign.” Field Marshal Sir Charles Keightley reeled off the list of losses dispassionately. “And in one that was not conventional?” “With our forces in the Far East and our land based missiles, in a bit over half an hour, we would be able to destroy over 500 targets in China Proper and Manchuria, eliminating their ability to support aggressive military action and removing them as a threat.” said Air Chief Marshal Sir John Grandy, AOC-I-C of Bomber Command. “ Give us ten years and the modern weapons we need and we will be able to do most of the job ourselves at home and be free to deploy forces beyond our immediate region.” Chief of the Indian Defence Staff Field Marshal Sir Sanjay Ramakrishnan said, adjusting his rakish eye patch. “I have 80 divisions marching on paper at the present, but can put perhaps half of those in the field with the weapons of the Korean War. In the air, we can more than match the Chinese right now; but on land, the matter is not as clear, at least until we get the right weapons.” “You’ll get them. That much and more we will do. As it stands, though, we need to reach agreement on the best means to do so. In Britain, we are going to be increasing funding overall as a first step towards that. Now, we are committed together to increase our presence in South Vietnam and that could well last several years, but our principles are that the British deployment will be not be a limitless one, either in numbers or expenditure. We will fund our Vietnam operations separately from the defence budget with specific drawings from the Sinking Fund and other sources, in addition to the American subsidy. Our increased spending and rearmament will then focus on what we really need. Minister of Defence?” “We are basing our force and equipment requirements on the principle of a heavy mechanised army in Europe with more mobile troops on the Scandinavian and Mediterranean flanks, smaller light and medium forces in the Middle East and Orient and a rapid deployment force at home that can go to any of our four planned contingency areas - India, the South Pacific, North America and Africa. In contrast to this focus, both the Navy and the RAF are to function as global forces, with an emphasis on missiles and multirole aircraft. Our stocks of weapons, equipment, fuel and matériel are all to be boosted, both to increase the reach and striking power of the Air Force and the Navy and to cement the staying power of the Army. Our ability to project large ground forces beyond Europe and the Mediterranean will be dependent on our reserve forces and being able to sustain their mobilisation.” “And sustain it we will. Britain will keep her commitments to each of our Commonwealth Dominions and our kith and kin over the seas. Absolutely. Our position is more strained than in 1961, but we shall do what we need to do, together. The current system of regional Imperial commands and responsibilities is a sound one as it currently stands, but one plan we wish to raise today is the introduction of an intermediate force level between the local and the Imperial Strategic Reserve. Admiral Mountbatten can expand.” “Yes, Prime Minister. Aside from the large reserves in the Middle East and Orient we currently have our system of Imperial Commands in Atlantic, Pacific, West Indies, Africa and other key areas, with a joint Fleet Unit, aerial strike wing and a regional brigade on stand by. These work effectively and provide for a first response force. What our studies have shown is a gap between this level of force and the multiple reinforced corps level of the ISR that would be filled by a rotational Commonwealth Division supported by a composite air group and a naval strike force based around an aircraft carrier battle group. This would not be entirely forward deployed unless operationally required, but the framework to constitute and support it would be put in place. Structurally, it would follow the pattern of the current unit in Singapore of rotating brigade headquarters and assigned battalions from the Dominions and colonies, whilst operational funding would be drawn from the British Commonwealth Reserve Fund. The notion is that we would be able to have East Africa Command dealing with an internal disturbance in Tanganyika and Pacific Command carrying out deterrence operations in New Guinea in support of the Aussies whilst a division remains ready to reinforce either or to go to Central America or even Alaska on short notice. This still preserves the main part of our established reserve for their contingency mission, but if heavier support is needed, it can be provided by British airborne, infantry or Royal Marines forces currently assigned to the Spearhead Division role within 100 hours.”
So India has a large but fairly outdated army and is looking toward Britain for support. Is this in terms of funding or just the actual production of the weapons themselves. Since we're talking chiefly land forces here and given the size of India, especially in DE I would have thought that India would be able to produce most items locally. With possibly some of the heavier and more sophisticated stuff still needing to be obtained from the UK.
Interesting that one of the 4 contingency areas is N America. Someone's got to keep an eye on those dodgy sods to the south. Assuming this is for fear of attacks across from Russia but with Alaska in the way I would have thought that the US would handle that and probably also be unhappy about anyone else having a hand in matters. Or are there issues in the Caribbean?
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simon darkshade
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Post by simon darkshade on May 22, 2022 15:02:06 GMT
Steve, The Indian Army, as detailed in the Order of Battle thread here alternate-timelines.proboards.com/thread/2346/dark-earth-orders-battle?page=2&scrollTo=49960 has a number of limitations: - Their infantry divisions are motorised in lorries and equipped with a mixture of SLRs, SMLEs, Brens and old Vickers machine guns (the WW2 version at least, which are belt fed proto GPMGs that look like a cross between the Vickers-Berthier and Vickers K). - Their artillery is mainly of a similar vintage and isn’t bad, but 25pdrs and towed 6” howitzers are getting long in the teeth by 1965 - In terms of tanks, they have a mixture of 600 Chieftains, Centurions and upgunned Super Centurions, but want Chieftains and Conquerors sooner than later - There is also a need for new support vehicles, APCs, rockets, missiles of all kinds, AA weapons and modernised small arms They can build a lot of what is needed in India in terms of small arms and artillery, but as you say, the heavy and ultra modern kit can’t be mass produced in India just yet. The period of 1960/61 through to 64/65 has seen RIAF modernisation take first priority. Mountbatten was merely giving examples of widely separated contingencies in that bit, rather than pointing out the most likely threats. Alaska is part of Canada and whilst the Americans base forces there, they don’t have final say. It isn’t a likely contingency outside of WW3, when there would be different plans. The proposed change is to have a composite division and support elements that can reinforce the local ready brigade. As of 1965, they consist of West Indies: Canadian Army infantry brigade South Atlantic: South African Army brigade Pacific: New Avalonian infantry brigade Africa: British Army brigade based in Kenya Middle East and Far East have larger forces. So, if something flares up in Africa, the brigade goes on stand by and the air wing gets ready to go. This proposed change has a multinational division ready to be flown into, say, Nigeria to reinforce Africa Command along with more aircraft and naval reinforcements as needed. This means that the big Imperial Strategic Reserve in Britain can remain poised to react to a bigger crisis or fulfil their wartime contingency rather than be called out for every smaller flare up. The Commonwealth Division, like the regional brigades, is a light infantry formation. There is a question on where it would be best to base this force, as Britain is far from many locations and already quite full. Oh, and the little sting for the whole discussion: this is right before Vietnam.
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simon darkshade
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Post by simon darkshade on May 31, 2022 17:53:13 GMT
“That level of flexibility with regard to emerging or regional conflicts will permit us in Britain in turn to focus on our major priorities: a large land army and air force in Europe for Continental warfare and home defence, naval forces for control of the Atlantic, and smaller combined forces for holding the Middle East, supporting India and defending our position in the Far East. These are informed by the needs of the Dominions and Britain alike, but particularly for the frontline states - Australia and Israel. In turn, it determines our goals and collective priorities as an Empire. What follows from Sir Richard is an initial draft, as it were, subject to further refinement.”
“Thank you, Prime Minister. For the European and Mediterranean theatres, there is a requirement for a full army group of 24 heavy divisions in Germany and 2000 aircraft plus a Royal Marine force; a home defence force of 8 divisions and 1800 fighters; 8 divisions and 600 tactical aircraft for Scandinavia; two carrier battle groups in the North Sea to cover the Baltic Exits; two divisions each to reinforce Iceland and Denmark; 200 ASW aircraft in the Mediterranean and 400 for the North and Norwegian Seas; 60 convoy escorts in the Med; and garrison forces in Malta and Gibraltar equivalent to a division and 200 aircraft. The Austrians and Greeks have indicated that they would welcome further commitments of forces. Our forces in the Atlantic are almost all naval and air units, with garrison brigades for the Azures and Greenland and mobile defence battalions for the Floating Fortresses being the only significant land elements. We have a requirement for 240 escorts for convoy protection and general patrol in the North Atlantic and Western Approaches, 96 escorts and 8 light carriers for ASW Hunter/Killer Groups and four light carriers and 64 escorts for the GIB ASW Barrier Force, and 1200 assorted ASW patrol aircraft. For the North American theatre, there is a requirement for 6 divisions and 4 independent brigades and 1200 fighters for Continental defence across Canada and Newfoundland; 1 division and 200 planes in New Avalon; a brigade and 100 ASW planes in Bermuda; 100 local ASW patrol aircraft in Newfoundland; 20 coastal escorts in the Canada/Newfoundland littoral; and a carrier battle group or equivalent to cover Alaska and Western Canada. The Atlantic provides the link between the forces in the British Isles and North America and is the most significant sea in our defence against the Soviets and other global threats.
In the Middle East, we require 8 divisions and 1000 aircraft in Israel; 12 divisions and 1000 aircraft in Mesopotamia and Persia; two mobile divisions to be based in Cyprus; two divisions and 400 aircraft in Suez and Egypt; 100 ASW patrol aircraft; and garrison forces in the Gulf States. The Mediterranean Fleet of six carrier groups and two in the Persian Gulf and Arabian Sea would support these forces, deploying a total of 8 fleet carriers, 8 battleships, 20 cruisers and 100 escorts. The African theatre has a requirement for 6 divisions and 500 aircraft for the defence of Southern Africa, based on the current alignment of Portuguese Africa on its flanks; 2 divisions and 200 aircraft each for West Africa and Tanganyika; 200 patrol planes; and a reinforced corps to secure the Congo. We have always planned for and worked towards a strong degree of support and interchangeability of forces between the Middle East and Africa given their close proximity and one cannot be held without the other. Our fulcrum here is Suez, as ever, with our layers of defence projecting outward.
For the Far East, we need 4 divisions and 800 planes for Malaya and Singapore; divisions in Borneo and Burma; a mobile expeditionary force of 2 divisions and 500 tactical aircraft for Thailand and Indochina; a reinforced division and 200 aircraft for the defence of Hong Kong; and a theatre reserve division up on the Kra. The main force of the Far Eastern Fleet, some six carriers, four battleships, 12 cruisers and 48 escorts, is to be mobile in the South China Sea and at least 60 escorts and 250 ASW patrol aircraft for regional convoy protection. India’s requirements against a Soviet threat, as distinct from the Chinese one outlined previously, are for two reinforced field armies on the North West Frontier and Eastern Command supported by 2400 tactical aircraft and a central reserve field army. The exigencies of India’s geography are such to preclude an absolute need for carriers in support of either flank. The Pacific theatre requires fewer forces, with the defence of Australia and New Zealand being our primary focus in the South Pacific. The former requires 6 divisions across the North of Australia and New Guinea and two brigades in Timor, 500 aircraft and three carrier groups, whilst New Zealand can be covered by four brigades and 100 planes; anti-submarine warfare patrol aircraft in this theatre come to 250 and escorts to 30.
Finally, we have our global forces in the form of the Royal Navy and RAF - the Grand Fleet and Bomber Command. Each has the capacity to project power within any of the above major areas, whether it be with conventional, nuclear or chemical means for the bombers or the sheer firepower of our main carrier force and battlefleet. Optimal strength of the latter is projected as 8 fleet carriers and 4 ASW carriers, 12 battleships, 36 cruisers and 120 escorts. The Imperial Strategic Reserve in Britain is currently projected as two reinforced corps and 800 tactical aircraft and operates in conjunction with the aforementioned elements across the world. Further to these, we have the four integrated commands in the North Pacific, South Atlantic, West Indies and East Africa would each have a brigade, 100 aircraft and a carrier battle group as previously outlined, acting as regional reserves and direct augmentation of the larger joint commands, and 50 assorted escort ships on Imperial trade protection. Total target global force requirements come to 15,000 tactical fighters, 2800 patrol aircraft, 28 fleet and 16 ASW carriers, 32 battleships, 100 cruisers, 800 escorts and 156 divisions."
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simon darkshade
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Post by simon darkshade on Jun 1, 2022 17:20:27 GMT
To crunch some 1964/5 numbers based on the above
Britain: 28 + 8 divisions, 5650 aircraft (4800 RAF + 850 RNAS), 1200 patrol planes, 15 carriers, 25 battleships, 50 cruisers, 520 escorts Canada: 14 divisions, 2160 tac aircraft (1860 + 300 RCNAS) 300 patrol planes, 6 carriers, 4 battleships, 12 cruisers, 180 escorts Australia: 8 divisions, 632 tactical aircraft, 170 patrol planes, 4 carriers, 2 battleships, 8 cruisers, 80 escorts South Africa: 6 divisions, 520 tactical aircraft, 102 patrol planes, 2 carriers, 2 battleships, 4 cruisers, 25 escorts New Avalon: 4 divisions, 360 tactical aircraft, 48 patrol planes, 1 carrier, 1 battleship, 2 cruisers, 17 escorts Israel: 4 divisions, 524 tactical aircraft, 20 patrol planes, 1 cruiser, 10 escorts Rhodesia: 4 divisions, 300 tactical aircraft New Zealand: 2 divisions, 200 tactical aircraft, 36 patrol planes, 1 carrier, 1 battleship, 2 cruisers, 14 escorts Kenya: 2 divisions, 100 tactical aircraft, 1 cruiser, 4 escorts Newfoundland: 1 division, 200 tactical aircraft, 24 patrol planes, 1 battleship, 2 cruisers, 12 escorts Prydain: 1 division, 150 tactical aircraft, 16 patrol planes, 2 cruisers, 8 escorts
(India: 72 divisions, 2943 tactical aircraft, 240 patrol planes, 3 battleships, 3 carriers, 5 cruisers, 34 escorts)
Total Non India CW: 74 divisions, 10,796 tactical aircraft, 1916 patrol planes, 29 fleet carriers, 36 battleships, 84 cruisers, 866 escorts
Non India Variant A: 108 divisions, 12,600 tac a/c, 4000 patrol, 28 CV, 4 CVL, 32 BB, 100 CA, 800 escorts
Shortfall: 34 divisions, 1800 aircraft, 900 patrol planes, 12 CVL, (5000 modern a/c)
- The British divisional number includes the Regular Army (24) and Royal Marines (4); with 2 Gurkha and 2 Sikh divisions and the 4 African colonial divisions counted separately - The ‘Non India Variant A’ does not reflect an Indian split from the CW, but rather a recognition that their forces will be largely focused on the defence of India itself and not deployable in any great numbers before the modernisation programme or specific planning - Canada plans to build more patrol planes, but they, Australia and Britain will be disposing of older wartime escorts - In the shortfall figure, the 5000 aircraft refers to the number of older planes on strength requiring replacement - New Avalon has a smaller force than it is capable of and this will lead to some debate - The extra divisions come from the reserves of the CW Big 4 (Britain, Canada, Australia and South Africa), but they need time to mobilise in most cases - The exception is Israel, but they aren’t necessarily deployable beyond their immediate borders - The minor states are tapped out fairly considerably, without room for much expansion - On first reading, the numbers for the Continental army seem large. It consists of 4 British and 2 Canadian corps, each reinforced with a reserve/TA/Militia infantry division for rear area/flank security and anti-tank warfare; and a further 4 Commonwealth and 8 British TA infantry divisions as extra reserves
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simon darkshade
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Post by simon darkshade on Jun 2, 2022 7:10:33 GMT
From here then comes a process of - Discussions on what force level goals are collectively acceptable and agreements on land, sea and air - Having the debate on how to cut their cloth, with the collective shock at the India force levels being an example of that - Working out production and procurement coordination plans, based on national requirements, War Emergency Reserve Stocks and establishment of Regional Production Centres (not centralising everything in Britain and Canada) - Spending and Finance: What can be done with joint projects; How to make collective savings; Coordination of Funding; Establishment of an Imperial Defence Fund; Setting National Minimum Commitments
Broadly speaking,
1.) The defence of Southern Africa can be covered by South Africa and Rhodesia, Australasia by the Anzacs and Canada by the Canadians and Newfies. 2.) That leaves the Far East (10 divisions) and the Middle East (24 divisions) that stick out; cutting the requirement in the latter case for stopping the Soviets in Northern Iraq and Persia saves forces in the light of the regional countries being more capable. 3.) The two flanks of Africa are also deployments that can be reduced, given the expected gradual move towards African self-government in the 1960s and independence in the 1970s/80s. It frees up the African divisions for elsewhere/flexible deployment, which is the mot du jour. 4.) Britain will be looking to reduce overall regular strength after Vietnam as part of general consolidation. This will be based on the discussions Barton and Pendragon had earlier in ANJ 5.) In the second half of the 1960s, the independent forces of the West Indies add to total global strength. 6.) Who has deployable forces beyond their own local defence? Canada, after deployments in Europe and Scandinavia, has perhaps 2 'spare' divisions upon mobilisation; Britain has the ISR; and the Anzacs and Saracs can field reinforced corps for the Middle East and might be able to field a division each after that for Germany. New Avalon, being next door to the USA, has minimal defence needs and can potentially deploy multiple divisions overseas. 7.) Malaya and Ceylon, whilst having recently achieved Dominion status or being right on the verge of it, lack the ability to field strong forces beyond their own local defence. 8.) India could spare 12 of its 72 divisions if matters improve, all the stars align and the politics come together. 9.) The ambitious Germany/BAOR goals will take a while. 10.) Suez doesn't necessarily need the old standard land and air forces with forces right next door...
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