Lee in the Union

stevep
Fleet admiral

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Lee in the Union Nov 28, 2020 13:51:55 GMT ssgtc and La Rouge Beret like this

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Post by stevep on Nov 28, 2020 13:51:55 GMT

Nov 27, 2020 18:55:22 GMT oscssw said:

Oct 1, 2020 20:08:02 GMT ssgtc said:

In a scenario where Virginia stayed in the Union, I think that's broadly accurate. Had Lee been in command, he would have crushed Beauregard. But in this scenario, Virginia still seceded. Lee only stays in the Union by a quirk of fate: being in command in Texas when Texas seceded and being forced to fight against the South due to Virginia still being in the Union (Texas seceded in February, 1861 while Virginia didn't secede until mid May). Once that happens he's basically stuck. No one in the South will want him or trust him, and Lee still felt more loyal to Virginia than to Washington. So he won't want to fight in Virginia. In this scenario, I don't see him accepting command of the Army of the Potomac, which immediately thrusts him into fighting against his own state, something he was totally opposed to.

Eventually, I think he would admit that no matter what he did, he was still fighting and Virginians, so he might as well take command and end the war as fast as possible.

He might also salve his conscience by considering he was not alone, as a Virginian, fighting for the union.

The Virginia state legislature passed the Order of Secession on April 17, and Virginians voted to ratify secession on May 23. Less than a month later, Pro-Union Virginians voted to form a second government, the Restored Government of Virginia, on June 17. In August, the Restored Government of Virginia voted to approve the creation of a new state, West Virginia. According to Article IV, Section III of the U.S. Constitution, no new state can be formed from the territory of an existing state without the latter’s consent.

The West Virginia Constitution was ratified by voters on November 26, 1861. In May 1862, Senator Waitman T. Willey (Unionist-VA) submitted a bill, S. 365, to Congress for the admission of West Virginia to the Union. He then proposed an amendment to the bill calling for West Virginia to amend their constitution to include the gradual emancipation of slaves in the state. On July 14, the Senate approved West Virginia’s admission to the Union, with statehood conditioned on its approval of the Willey Amendment. The House approved the bill in December. Lincoln signed the bill admitting West Virginia to the Union, on December 31. On March 26, 1863, West Virginia ratified the revised constitution to include the gradual emancipation of slaves. President Lincoln proclaimed that West Virginia would officially be recognized as a state on June 20, 1863.

An estimated 32,000 West Virginians fought for the Union.

Infantry units

1st West Virginia Volunteer Infantry Regiment (3 Month)
1st West Virginia Volunteer Infantry Regiment (3 Year)
1st West Virginia Veteran Volunteer Infantry Regiment
2nd West Virginia Volunteer Infantry Regiment
2nd West Virginia Veteran Volunteer Infantry Regiment
3rd West Virginia Volunteer Infantry Regiment
4th West Virginia Volunteer Infantry Regiment
5th West Virginia Volunteer Infantry Regiment
6th West Virginia Volunteer Infantry Regiment
7th West Virginia Volunteer Infantry Regiment
8th West Virginia Volunteer Infantry Regiment
9th West Virginia Volunteer Infantry Regiment
10th West Virginia Volunteer Infantry Regiment
11th West Virginia Volunteer Infantry Regiment
12th West Virginia Volunteer Infantry Regiment
13th West Virginia Volunteer Infantry Regiment
14th West Virginia Volunteer Infantry Regiment
15th West Virginia Volunteer Infantry Regiment
16th West Virginia Volunteer Infantry Regiment
17th West Virginia Volunteer Infantry Regiment
Independent Battalion West Virginia Infantry
1st Independent Company Loyal Virginians

Cavalry units

1st West Virginia Volunteer Cavalry Regiment
2nd West Virginia Volunteer Cavalry Regiment
3rd West Virginia Volunteer Cavalry Regiment
4th West Virginia Volunteer Cavalry Regiment
5th West Virginia Volunteer Cavalry Regiment
6th West Virginia Volunteer Cavalry Regiment
7th West Virginia Volunteer Cavalry Regiment
Blazer's Scouts

Artillery units

Battery "A" West Virginia Light Artillery
Battery "B" West Virginia Light Artillery
Battery "C" West Virginia Light Artillery
Battery "D" West Virginia Light Artillery
Battery "E" West Virginia Light Artillery
Battery "F" West Virginia Light Artillery
Battery "G" West Virginia Light Artillery
Battery "H" West Virginia Light Artillery

The issue here for Lee might be not just that he's a slave owner himself but that the aim of the group quickly becomes the breaking away from Virginia. I suspect he would be happier in that situation if the unionist were proclaiming themselves the legitimate Virginian state government with the post-war aim of staying part of Virginia.

ssgtc
Sub-lieutenant

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Lee in the Union Nov 28, 2020 14:58:16 GMT via mobile

Quote

Post by ssgtc on Nov 28, 2020 14:58:16 GMT

Nov 28, 2020 13:51:55 GMT stevep said:

Nov 27, 2020 18:55:22 GMT oscssw said:

He might also salve his conscience by considering he was not alone, as a Virginian, fighting for the union.

The Virginia state legislature passed the Order of Secession on April 17, and Virginians voted to ratify secession on May 23. Less than a month later, Pro-Union Virginians voted to form a second government, the Restored Government of Virginia, on June 17. In August, the Restored Government of Virginia voted to approve the creation of a new state, West Virginia. According to Article IV, Section III of the U.S. Constitution, no new state can be formed from the territory of an existing state without the latter’s consent.

The West Virginia Constitution was ratified by voters on November 26, 1861. In May 1862, Senator Waitman T. Willey (Unionist-VA) submitted a bill, S. 365, to Congress for the admission of West Virginia to the Union. He then proposed an amendment to the bill calling for West Virginia to amend their constitution to include the gradual emancipation of slaves in the state. On July 14, the Senate approved West Virginia’s admission to the Union, with statehood conditioned on its approval of the Willey Amendment. The House approved the bill in December. Lincoln signed the bill admitting West Virginia to the Union, on December 31. On March 26, 1863, West Virginia ratified the revised constitution to include the gradual emancipation of slaves. President Lincoln proclaimed that West Virginia would officially be recognized as a state on June 20, 1863.

An estimated 32,000 West Virginians fought for the Union.

Infantry units

1st West Virginia Volunteer Infantry Regiment (3 Month)
1st West Virginia Volunteer Infantry Regiment (3 Year)
1st West Virginia Veteran Volunteer Infantry Regiment
2nd West Virginia Volunteer Infantry Regiment
2nd West Virginia Veteran Volunteer Infantry Regiment
3rd West Virginia Volunteer Infantry Regiment
4th West Virginia Volunteer Infantry Regiment
5th West Virginia Volunteer Infantry Regiment
6th West Virginia Volunteer Infantry Regiment
7th West Virginia Volunteer Infantry Regiment
8th West Virginia Volunteer Infantry Regiment
9th West Virginia Volunteer Infantry Regiment
10th West Virginia Volunteer Infantry Regiment
11th West Virginia Volunteer Infantry Regiment
12th West Virginia Volunteer Infantry Regiment
13th West Virginia Volunteer Infantry Regiment
14th West Virginia Volunteer Infantry Regiment
15th West Virginia Volunteer Infantry Regiment
16th West Virginia Volunteer Infantry Regiment
17th West Virginia Volunteer Infantry Regiment
Independent Battalion West Virginia Infantry
1st Independent Company Loyal Virginians

Cavalry units

1st West Virginia Volunteer Cavalry Regiment
2nd West Virginia Volunteer Cavalry Regiment
3rd West Virginia Volunteer Cavalry Regiment
4th West Virginia Volunteer Cavalry Regiment
5th West Virginia Volunteer Cavalry Regiment
6th West Virginia Volunteer Cavalry Regiment
7th West Virginia Volunteer Cavalry Regiment
Blazer's Scouts

Artillery units

Battery "A" West Virginia Light Artillery
Battery "B" West Virginia Light Artillery
Battery "C" West Virginia Light Artillery
Battery "D" West Virginia Light Artillery
Battery "E" West Virginia Light Artillery
Battery "F" West Virginia Light Artillery
Battery "G" West Virginia Light Artillery
Battery "H" West Virginia Light Artillery

The issue here for Lee might be not just that he's a slave owner himself but that the aim of the group quickly becomes the breaking away from Virginia. I suspect he would be happier in that situation if the unionist were proclaiming themselves the legitimate Virginian state government with the post-war aim of staying part of Virginia.

I agree with that. If the government in Charleston claimed to be the legitimate government of Virginia, I could see Lee in this situation declaring that the true state government was still in the Union, therefore he would likewise remain in the Union.

oscssw
Senior chief petty officer

Posts: 967
Likes: 1,575

Lee in the Union Nov 28, 2020 15:09:02 GMT stevep likes this

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Post by oscssw on Nov 28, 2020 15:09:02 GMT

Nov 28, 2020 13:48:24 GMT stevep said:

There used to be an old viewpoint in the British army that officers were there to inspire the men by leading from the front while the troops looked to the NCO's for orders at the tactical level.

I thought the NCOs were in the rear to make sure no one ran. As in "Don't think about running because you first have to get past me and you have a much better chance of surviving facing the enemy".

Or to put it another way there are few things as dangerous as a man who thinks he knows it all but doesn't.

Steve, that is God's own truth. Sadly that would be the epitaph on many a tomb stone if the truth be known.

And how can man die better than facing fearful odds, for the ashes of his fathers and the temple of his God?

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Post by stevep on Nov 28, 2020 13:51:55 GMT

Post by ssgtc on Nov 28, 2020 14:58:16 GMT

Post by oscssw on Nov 28, 2020 15:09:02 GMT