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Post by EwellHolmes on Oct 5, 2020 18:21:45 GMT
The author does not state Sherman was the first killed, and he has Grant die later in the battle as the Confederate attack develops. Ultimately, however, neither of these detract from the basis of the Confederate victory; a better deployment and a movement that involves not running to the Union Gunboats at Pittsburg Landing. Comparing this to Pickett's Charge ignores the very, very different tactical basis of both engagements. At Pickett's Charge, the Federal defenders were awaiting the attack, which had to come across an open field at them. At Shiloh, however, the Federals were caught completely by surprise and Grant compounded this failure by having ordered his men not to construct entrenchments. In short: Shiloh: Unprepared Federals caught by surprise with no fortifications Pickett's Charge: Fortified Federals expecting an attack in the open against them Further again, you need to consider that comparisons to other battles ignore the changed landscape and orientation of the battlefield. At Fredericksburg, the Confederates were entrenched and allowing the Federals to attack them but, further, the Federals had an open line of retreat. Same goes for Antietam. What the author wrote was Johnston's plan, which was a good one; instead of focusing on Pittsburg Landing, the attack maneuvers the Union forces into such a position that they have no escape due to the prevailing swamps and creeks of the area. If to his rear is flood, impassable swamps and to his front is the Confederate Army, what else can be expected but the total destruction of the force? See what happened to Harper's Ferry in September of 1862, where Jackson destroyed an entire force of 12,000 Federals. Finally, "No Plan survives Contact with the enemy" isn't meant to be a truism, but to instill a sense of improvisation as the particulars of the battlefield shape up. The vast majority of military operations do proceed as planned; otherwise, how does anybody win wars?
Have to disagree with this last bit. Yes its meant to show the importance of improvisation. However by definition at least half of military plans do fail in part and many totally as there are at least two sides in any war. Classic example might be the opening campaigns of WWI as I don't think anyone can say their plans worked out there. [Possible exception might be the Serbs, who for the 1st year+ managed to hold off a much larger opponent and possibly the UK for helping to prevent the total crushing of Belgium and defeat of France. However I doubt many in the BEF or the government and military higher levels at home expected anything like what happened in the campaign let alone the next 4 years].
Sometimes the conflict is so one sided that the eventual winner is in doubt but you can still get nasty shocks. For instance the Soviets in the Winter War or British at Isandlwana for example. Other than very short wars which may see little/no problems for the eventual winner its a case of muddling through, being better in some areas and making less [and/or less serious] mistakes than the opposition.
Steve
If taken as a truism, then all national militaries are stupid for maintaining military training academies like West Point or Sandhurst given the pointlessness of learning strategy and tactics. In reality, yes, little deviations to the plan always occur given the reality of human reaction and the like but in general, the concept of operations play out as intended even if said operation doesn't achieve it's operational goals. For a contemporary example, see the Army of the Cumberland's Tullahoma Campaign in the Summer of 1863. For a WWI example, see 1918 in general.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Oct 5, 2020 20:27:58 GMT
Have to disagree with this last bit. Yes its meant to show the importance of improvisation. However by definition at least half of military plans do fail in part and many totally as there are at least two sides in any war. Classic example might be the opening campaigns of WWI as I don't think anyone can say their plans worked out there. [Possible exception might be the Serbs, who for the 1st year+ managed to hold off a much larger opponent and possibly the UK for helping to prevent the total crushing of Belgium and defeat of France. However I doubt many in the BEF or the government and military higher levels at home expected anything like what happened in the campaign let alone the next 4 years].
Sometimes the conflict is so one sided that the eventual winner is in doubt but you can still get nasty shocks. For instance the Soviets in the Winter War or British at Isandlwana for example. Other than very short wars which may see little/no problems for the eventual winner its a case of muddling through, being better in some areas and making less [and/or less serious] mistakes than the opposition.
Steve
If taken as a truism, then all national militaries are stupid for maintaining military training academies like West Point or Sandhurst given the pointlessness of learning strategy and tactics. In reality, yes, little deviations to the plan always occur given the reality of human reaction and the like but in general, the concept of operations play out as intended even if said operation doesn't achieve it's operational goals. For a contemporary example, see the Army of the Cumberland's Tullahoma Campaign in the Summer of 1863. For a WWI example, see 1918 in general.
Would disagree. The lesson is that things will go wrong and you have to adapt when they do. Military academies are assumable teaching that lesson else their not doing a very good job. That is a fundamental part of military - and other - operations. As a certain Jackie Fisher said "Any fool can obey orders" - or checking the full quote "In war the first principle is to disobey orders. Any fool can obey orders!" I would modify it a bit to "In war the first principle is to know when to disobey orders. Any fool can obey orders!" which I presume is what he actually mean.
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Post by EwellHolmes on Oct 7, 2020 1:11:04 GMT
If taken as a truism, then all national militaries are stupid for maintaining military training academies like West Point or Sandhurst given the pointlessness of learning strategy and tactics. In reality, yes, little deviations to the plan always occur given the reality of human reaction and the like but in general, the concept of operations play out as intended even if said operation doesn't achieve it's operational goals. For a contemporary example, see the Army of the Cumberland's Tullahoma Campaign in the Summer of 1863. For a WWI example, see 1918 in general.
Would disagree. The lesson is that things will go wrong and you have to adapt when they do. Military academies are assumable teaching that lesson else their not doing a very good job. That is a fundamental part of military - and other - operations. As a certain Jackie Fisher said "Any fool can obey orders" - or checking the full quote "In war the first principle is to disobey orders. Any fool can obey orders!" I would modify it a bit to "In war the first principle is to know when to disobey orders. Any fool can obey orders!" which I presume is what he actually mean. Minor adjustments based upon the realities on the ground are common, but often the overall concept of operations plays out. Otherwise, why bothering having military academies at all if the lessons they teach cannot be repeated/used as a basis? Why have tactics at all, for that?
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Oct 7, 2020 15:32:38 GMT
Would disagree. The lesson is that things will go wrong and you have to adapt when they do. Military academies are assumable teaching that lesson else their not doing a very good job. That is a fundamental part of military - and other - operations. As a certain Jackie Fisher said "Any fool can obey orders" - or checking the full quote "In war the first principle is to disobey orders. Any fool can obey orders!" I would modify it a bit to "In war the first principle is to know when to disobey orders. Any fool can obey orders!" which I presume is what he actually mean. Minor adjustments based upon the realities on the ground are common, but often the overall concept of operations plays out. Otherwise, why bothering having military academies at all if the lessons they teach cannot be repeated/used as a basis? Why have tactics at all, for that?
Even sticking to your definition of plans it still remains that many/most plans therefore fail. One common reason for this being because the people involved stick too firmly to the plan. As I pointed out the purpose of military academy's among other things, is to prepare military leaders for when they do need to change direction in any number of ways. Including when to say "No this isn't working at all, we must stop and find a different approach".
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Post by La Rouge Beret on Nov 26, 2020 1:44:25 GMT
I had a draft TL that utilised a similar POD where Lee served with the Union that I had titled 'Look Away Dixie' from the Johnny Cash song.
The image I always had was a scene where he and Sherman along with Grant as well, clashed quite strongly over dinner regarding Sherman's troops conduct. Strangely enough the cult of Robert E Lee might then be taken up by Northern officers and it is the various Confederate veteran associations try to have his legacy limited within West Point. Now that would be a change from OTL.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Nov 26, 2020 11:11:49 GMT
I had a draft TL that utilised a similar POD where Lee served with the Union that I had titled 'Look Away Dixie' from the Johnny Cash song. The image I always had was a scene where he and Sherman along with Grant as well, clashed quite strongly over dinner regarding Sherman's troops conduct. Strangely enough the cult of Robert E Lee might then be taken up by Northern officers and it is the various Confederate veteran associations try to have his legacy limited within West Point. Now that would be a change from OTL.
That would be interesting. Agree that Lee isn't likely to be happy with the behaviour of Sherman's troops during his march to the sea.
The song is actually a lot older, dating back to before the civil war itself and was apparently also a favourite of a Kentucky born bloke by the name of Lincoln. See Dixie for some more details.
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oscssw
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Post by oscssw on Nov 27, 2020 18:23:11 GMT
If taken as a truism, then all national militaries are stupid for maintaining military training academies like West Point or Sandhurst given the pointlessness of learning strategy and tactics. Any of you ever had a Divo (Division Officer) straight out of Annapolis with 8 weeks at SWO basic Divo course? You would be surprised to learn just how little these kids actually know compared to what they THINK they know!
They are what makes chiefs turn to the bottle.
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oscssw
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Post by oscssw on Nov 27, 2020 18:55:22 GMT
In a scenario where Virginia stayed in the Union, I think that's broadly accurate. Had Lee been in command, he would have crushed Beauregard. But in this scenario, Virginia still seceded. Lee only stays in the Union by a quirk of fate: being in command in Texas when Texas seceded and being forced to fight against the South due to Virginia still being in the Union (Texas seceded in February, 1861 while Virginia didn't secede until mid May). Once that happens he's basically stuck. No one in the South will want him or trust him, and Lee still felt more loyal to Virginia than to Washington. So he won't want to fight in Virginia. In this scenario, I don't see him accepting command of the Army of the Potomac, which immediately thrusts him into fighting against his own state, something he was totally opposed to. Eventually, I think he would admit that no matter what he did, he was still fighting and Virginians, so he might as well take command and end the war as fast as possible. He might also salve his conscience by considering he was not alone, as a Virginian, fighting for the union.
The Virginia state legislature passed the Order of Secession on April 17, and Virginians voted to ratify secession on May 23. Less than a month later, Pro-Union Virginians voted to form a second government, the Restored Government of Virginia, on June 17. In August, the Restored Government of Virginia voted to approve the creation of a new state, West Virginia. According to Article IV, Section III of the U.S. Constitution, no new state can be formed from the territory of an existing state without the latter’s consent.
The West Virginia Constitution was ratified by voters on November 26, 1861. In May 1862, Senator Waitman T. Willey (Unionist-VA) submitted a bill, S. 365, to Congress for the admission of West Virginia to the Union. He then proposed an amendment to the bill calling for West Virginia to amend their constitution to include the gradual emancipation of slaves in the state. On July 14, the Senate approved West Virginia’s admission to the Union, with statehood conditioned on its approval of the Willey Amendment. The House approved the bill in December. Lincoln signed the bill admitting West Virginia to the Union, on December 31. On March 26, 1863, West Virginia ratified the revised constitution to include the gradual emancipation of slaves. President Lincoln proclaimed that West Virginia would officially be recognized as a state on June 20, 1863.
An estimated 32,000 West Virginians fought for the Union.
Infantry units
1st West Virginia Volunteer Infantry Regiment (3 Month) 1st West Virginia Volunteer Infantry Regiment (3 Year) 1st West Virginia Veteran Volunteer Infantry Regiment 2nd West Virginia Volunteer Infantry Regiment 2nd West Virginia Veteran Volunteer Infantry Regiment 3rd West Virginia Volunteer Infantry Regiment 4th West Virginia Volunteer Infantry Regiment 5th West Virginia Volunteer Infantry Regiment 6th West Virginia Volunteer Infantry Regiment 7th West Virginia Volunteer Infantry Regiment 8th West Virginia Volunteer Infantry Regiment 9th West Virginia Volunteer Infantry Regiment 10th West Virginia Volunteer Infantry Regiment 11th West Virginia Volunteer Infantry Regiment 12th West Virginia Volunteer Infantry Regiment 13th West Virginia Volunteer Infantry Regiment 14th West Virginia Volunteer Infantry Regiment 15th West Virginia Volunteer Infantry Regiment 16th West Virginia Volunteer Infantry Regiment 17th West Virginia Volunteer Infantry Regiment Independent Battalion West Virginia Infantry 1st Independent Company Loyal Virginians
Cavalry units
1st West Virginia Volunteer Cavalry Regiment 2nd West Virginia Volunteer Cavalry Regiment 3rd West Virginia Volunteer Cavalry Regiment 4th West Virginia Volunteer Cavalry Regiment 5th West Virginia Volunteer Cavalry Regiment 6th West Virginia Volunteer Cavalry Regiment 7th West Virginia Volunteer Cavalry Regiment Blazer's Scouts
Artillery units
Battery "A" West Virginia Light Artillery Battery "B" West Virginia Light Artillery Battery "C" West Virginia Light Artillery Battery "D" West Virginia Light Artillery Battery "E" West Virginia Light Artillery Battery "F" West Virginia Light Artillery Battery "G" West Virginia Light Artillery Battery "H" West Virginia Light Artillery
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Nov 27, 2020 20:12:52 GMT
An estimated 32,000 West Virginians fought for the Union. I assume not all at once.
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oscssw
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Post by oscssw on Nov 27, 2020 20:22:33 GMT
An estimated 32,000 West Virginians fought for the Union. I assume not all at once. Beats me. I'll have to ask one of them when I get the chance.
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Post by La Rouge Beret on Nov 28, 2020 0:03:38 GMT
If taken as a truism, then all national militaries are stupid for maintaining military training academies like West Point or Sandhurst given the pointlessness of learning strategy and tactics. Any of you ever had a Divo (Division Officer) straight out of Annapolis with 8 weeks at SWO basic Divo course? You would be surprised to learn just how little these kids actually know compared to what they THINK they know!
They are what makes chiefs turn to the bottle.
Hey! I might have been that Divisional Officer, but I was fortunate in that my Chief and two Petty Officer's were great. The kellicks were solid as well. Good times.
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ssgtc
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Post by ssgtc on Nov 28, 2020 0:07:11 GMT
If taken as a truism, then all national militaries are stupid for maintaining military training academies like West Point or Sandhurst given the pointlessness of learning strategy and tactics. Any of you ever had a Divo (Division Officer) straight out of Annapolis with 8 weeks at SWO basic Divo course? You would be surprised to learn just how little these kids actually know compared to what they THINK they know!
They are what makes chiefs turn to the bottle.
And yet again, I have it driven home to me just how lucky I was in having generally good officers in my time in the Corps...
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Post by La Rouge Beret on Nov 28, 2020 0:19:55 GMT
Any of you ever had a Divo (Division Officer) straight out of Annapolis with 8 weeks at SWO basic Divo course? You would be surprised to learn just how little these kids actually know compared to what they THINK they know!
They are what makes chiefs turn to the bottle.
And yet again, I have it driven home to me just how lucky I was in having generally good officers in my time in the Corps... I think that the units you served with also weeded out the lower EQ officers, hence your good experience was a result of you having the best officers the USMC produced. Well that's an outsider's perspective anyway.
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ssgtc
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Post by ssgtc on Nov 28, 2020 0:40:38 GMT
And yet again, I have it driven home to me just how lucky I was in having generally good officers in my time in the Corps... I think that the units you served with also weeded out the lower EQ officers, hence your good experience was a result of you having the best officers the USMC produced. Well that's an outsider's perspective anyway. No, that's pretty close to the truth. Plus, we also tend to get Gunnery Sergeants as Platoon Leaders because we don't have enough officers in Recon.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Nov 28, 2020 13:48:24 GMT
If taken as a truism, then all national militaries are stupid for maintaining military training academies like West Point or Sandhurst given the pointlessness of learning strategy and tactics. Any of you ever had a Divo (Division Officer) straight out of Annapolis with 8 weeks at SWO basic Divo course? You would be surprised to learn just how little these kids actually know compared to what they THINK they know!
They are what makes chiefs turn to the bottle.
There used to be an old viewpoint in the British army that officers were there to inspire the men by leading from the front while the troops looked to the NCO's for orders at the tactical level.
Or to put it another way there are few things as dangerous as a man who thinks he knows it all but doesn't.
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