ssgtc
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Post by ssgtc on Oct 1, 2020 19:20:30 GMT
I just finished reading Lee at the Alamo by Harry Turtledove. And now it's got me wondering: had something like that happened, what kind of butterflies would it cause and how long would Lee be able to avoid service in the East? Personally, I think he would be very successful in the Mississippi theater, far more than any General prior to Sherman and Grant. But given his success in that theater, how long would he be able to stomach the shit show in Virginia? Personally, i think he would eventually end up there, regardless of his personal feelings on the matter. Particularly since Virginia regiments served in the Army of Tennessee, so his desire not to fight fellow Virginians would end up being overridden by facing them anyway. Thoughts?
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Oct 1, 2020 19:23:45 GMT
I just finished reading Lee at the Alamo by Harry Turtledove. And now it's got me wondering: had something like that happened, what kind of butterflies would it cause and how long would Lee be able to avoid service in the East? Personally, I think he would be very successful in the Mississippi theater, far more than any General prior to Sherman and Grant. But given his success in that theater, how long would he be able to stomach the shit show in Virginia? Personally, i think he would eventually end up there, regardless of his personal feelings on the matter. Particularly since Virginia regiments served in the Army of Tennessee, so his desire not to fight fellow Virginians would end up being overridden by facing them anyway. Thoughts? Well there was once a history news network article called What If Robert E. Lee Accepted Command of the Union Army? which i posted in a thread: What If: Robert E. Lee commands the Union Army, do not know if you agree with what is said there. |
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ssgtc
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Post by ssgtc on Oct 1, 2020 20:08:02 GMT
In a scenario where Virginia stayed in the Union, I think that's broadly accurate. Had Lee been in command, he would have crushed Beauregard. But in this scenario, Virginia still seceded. Lee only stays in the Union by a quirk of fate: being in command in Texas when Texas seceded and being forced to fight against the South due to Virginia still being in the Union (Texas seceded in February, 1861 while Virginia didn't secede until mid May). Once that happens he's basically stuck. No one in the South will want him or trust him, and Lee still felt more loyal to Virginia than to Washington. So he won't want to fight in Virginia. In this scenario, I don't see him accepting command of the Army of the Potomac, which immediately thrusts him into fighting against his own state, something he was totally opposed to.
Eventually, I think he would admit that no matter what he did, he was still fighting and Virginians, so he might as well take command and end the war as fast as possible.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Oct 1, 2020 20:11:02 GMT
In a scenario where Virginia stayed in the Union, I think that's broadly accurate. Had Lee been in command, he would have crushed Beauregard. But in this scenario, Virginia still seceded. Lee only stays in the Union by a quirk of fate: being in command in Texas when Texas seceded and being forced to fight against the South due to Virginia still being in the Union (Texas seceded in February, 1861 while Virginia didn't secede until mid May). Once that happens he's basically stuck. No one in the South will want him or trust him, and Lee still felt more loyal to Virginia than to Washington. So he won't want to fight in Virginia. In this scenario, I don't see him accepting command of the Army of the Potomac, which immediately thrusts him into fighting against his own state, something he was totally opposed to. Eventually, I think he would admit that no matter what he did, he was still fighting and Virginians, so he might as well take command and end the war as fast as possible. So he takes command of the Army of the Gulf, its far enough away that he is forced to fight any Virginians i think. |
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ssgtc
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Post by ssgtc on Oct 1, 2020 20:20:25 GMT
In a scenario where Virginia stayed in the Union, I think that's broadly accurate. Had Lee been in command, he would have crushed Beauregard. But in this scenario, Virginia still seceded. Lee only stays in the Union by a quirk of fate: being in command in Texas when Texas seceded and being forced to fight against the South due to Virginia still being in the Union (Texas seceded in February, 1861 while Virginia didn't secede until mid May). Once that happens he's basically stuck. No one in the South will want him or trust him, and Lee still felt more loyal to Virginia than to Washington. So he won't want to fight in Virginia. In this scenario, I don't see him accepting command of the Army of the Potomac, which immediately thrusts him into fighting against his own state, something he was totally opposed to. Eventually, I think he would admit that no matter what he did, he was still fighting and Virginians, so he might as well take command and end the war as fast as possible. So he takes command of the Army of the Gulf, its far enough away that he is forced to fight any Virginians i think. That command didn't exist in 1861. In fact, it wouldn't exist for over a year from where the story ends. I think Lee is probably given command of the Department of the Ohio, followed by the Army of the Ohio. Which puts him fighting in Tennessee and Georgia most likely. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Oct 1, 2020 20:24:44 GMT
So he takes command of the Army of the Gulf, its far enough away that he is forced to fight any Virginians i think. That command didn't exist in 1861. In fact, it wouldn't exist for over a year from where the story ends. I think Lee is probably given command of the Department of the Ohio, followed by the Army of the Ohio. Which puts him fighting in Tennessee and Georgia most likely. Would he encounter any Virginians and do you know of any high rank Southerns who stayed and fought for the Union instead of the confederacy. |
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ssgtc
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Post by ssgtc on Oct 1, 2020 20:30:43 GMT
That command didn't exist in 1861. In fact, it wouldn't exist for over a year from where the story ends. I think Lee is probably given command of the Department of the Ohio, followed by the Army of the Ohio. Which puts him fighting in Tennessee and Georgia most likely. Would he encounter any Virginians and do you know of any high rank Southerns who stayed and fought for the Union instead of the confederacy. Yes, Major General George Thomas. He was from Virginia and remained with the Union. He was stationed with Lee in Texas just prior to the outbreak of the war. He was, behind Grant and Sherman, one of the best Generals the Union had. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Oct 2, 2020 11:27:10 GMT
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Oct 2, 2020 11:29:34 GMT
Would that be so easy, he fights against the breakaway states and the resigns due his home state breaking away itself. |
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Post by stevep on Oct 2, 2020 12:57:53 GMT
Would that be so easy, he fights against the breakaway states and the resigns due his home state breaking away itself.
Not easy but given his reported loyalty to Virginia I can't see him taking a role hostile to the south once Virginia joins it. The north might be able technically to charge him with mutiny but I think that would kick off a firestorm of complaints so would not be worthwhile.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Oct 2, 2020 13:00:21 GMT
Would that be so easy, he fights against the breakaway states and the resigns due his home state breaking away itself. Not easy but given his reported loyalty to Virginia I can't see him taking a role hostile to the south once Virginia joins it. The north might be able technically to charge him with mutiny but I think that would kick off a firestorm of complaints so would not be worthwhile.
They can always try to have him agree that he will be allowed to return to Virginia but only if he does not take arms against the Union. |
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ssgtc
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Post by ssgtc on Oct 2, 2020 18:53:28 GMT
Ok, so in the short story, the POD is that David Twiggs was unable to assume command of the Department of Texas due to ill health, leaving Lee in command. And though Lee obviously had no qualms about fighting for the Confederacy in OTL, at the time the story takes place, Virginia was still in the Union. So Lee was bound by his own honor to continue to uphold his oath to the Union, despite his personal feelings. He and his command hole up in the Alamo, which was being used as a supply depot. In TTL, the first shots of the Civil War are fired at the Alamo with the Texas Militia attempting to seize the fort after Lee refused to surrender it. So he is essentially forced into fighting against the South by a quirk of fate and Virginia still being part of the Union at the time. He is eventually forced to surrender when the Wall is breached in March shortly after Lincoln is sworn in. By the time he reaches Washington, his story has been published across the nation and he is hailed as a hero in the Union and is even paraded through Washington as a hero. But by now, Virginia has also seceded. At this point, Lee is quite literally being torn in two, as he feels his loyalty needs to lie with Virginia, but he is being reviled as a traitor to the South for fighting to hold the Alamo. So he knows that he'll never be accepted in the South because of that. Add in OTL, he is offered command of the Union Army, and declines as he feels that he cannot fight against Virginia. Lincoln invites him to the White House and attempt to persuade him to accept before offering him command of the Western Theater of the War where he will not have to fight directly against Virginia with the caveat that he will be allowed to retire with honor should he feel he can no longer continue to serve the Union while his own state opposed it. Phew!! I did not intend for my summary to be that long! Lol. So, given that he has already engaged in combat against the South, I think that rules out Lee resigning his commission to join Virginia. My personal view is that, having already been forced into fighting the South, and combining it with his religious beliefs (not as extreme as Jackson's, but he was still a very devout man), he'll accept that it was divine providence that he act as he did and will willingly fight for the Union in the West. I'm thinking he probably gets command of the Department of the Ohio and leads that army. Now, what butterflies that has on the war could be huge. Lee is a far better general than anyone in the West in the first year of the war. Whether he ever goes east is beyond me. I could see him taking command as a way of ending the war as quickly as possible to end the suffering. And I can also see him refusing any appointment in the East. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Oct 3, 2020 11:05:31 GMT
Not easy but given his reported loyalty to Virginia I can't see him taking a role hostile to the south once Virginia joins it. The north might be able technically to charge him with mutiny but I think that would kick off a firestorm of complaints so would not be worthwhile.
They can always try to have him agree that he will be allowed to return to Virginia but only if he does not take arms against the Union.
That could well be. Lee would be likely to accept that under those circumstances. Although there is one awkward issue here. His home is right on the front line and was under union control for much of the war. In fact one reason the US national cemetery was at Arlington was to deny Lee access to his home after the war. That may not be an issue here but union forces are almost certain to occupy the region at some point, in part because its on an height overlooking Washington. At that point would Lee be tempted to fight for his home, accept being taken prisoner or leave?
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Post by stevep on Oct 3, 2020 11:12:14 GMT
Ok, so in the short story, the POD is that David Twiggs was unable to assume command of the Department of Texas due to ill health, leaving Lee in command. And though Lee obviously had no qualms about fighting for the Confederacy in OTL, at the time the story takes place, Virginia was still in the Union. So Lee was bound by his own honor to continue to uphold his oath to the Union, despite his personal feelings. He and his command hole up in the Alamo, which was being used as a supply depot. In TTL, the first shots of the Civil War are fired at the Alamo with the Texas Militia attempting to seize the fort after Lee refused to surrender it. So he is essentially forced into fighting against the South by a quirk of fate and Virginia still being part of the Union at the time. He is eventually forced to surrender when the Wall is breached in March shortly after Lincoln is sworn in. By the time he reaches Washington, his story has been published across the nation and he is hailed as a hero in the Union and is even paraded through Washington as a hero. But by now, Virginia has also seceded. At this point, Lee is quite literally being torn in two, as he feels his loyalty needs to lie with Virginia, but he is being reviled as a traitor to the South for fighting to hold the Alamo. So he knows that he'll never be accepted in the South because of that. Add in OTL, he is offered command of the Union Army, and declines as he feels that he cannot fight against Virginia. Lincoln invites him to the White House and attempt to persuade him to accept before offering him command of the Western Theater of the War where he will not have to fight directly against Virginia with the caveat that he will be allowed to retire with honor should he feel he can no longer continue to serve the Union while his own state opposed it. Phew!! I did not intend for my summary to be that long! Lol. So, given that he has already engaged in combat against the South, I think that rules out Lee resigning his commission to join Virginia. My personal view is that, having already been forced into fighting the South, and combining it with his religious beliefs (not as extreme as Jackson's, but he was still a very devout man), he'll accept that it was divine providence that he act as he did and will willingly fight for the Union in the West. I'm thinking he probably gets command of the Department of the Ohio and leads that army. Now, what butterflies that has on the war could be huge. Lee is a far better general than anyone in the West in the first year of the war. Whether he ever goes east is beyond me. I could see him taking command as a way of ending the war as quickly as possible to end the suffering. And I can also see him refusing any appointment in the East.
Thanks for the summary. That does put Lee in a difficult position. I think Lee would either refuse to fight at all or as you say be willing to serve the union but not directly against Virginia as you say. Trend to think the former because if he continued to serve in the union forces after Virginia leaves the union he would be reviled there but if he say returned to Virginia on condition he didn't serve he would still be accepted there. Suspect that how he was viewed in Virginia would be most important to him.
Steve
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ssgtc
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Post by ssgtc on Oct 3, 2020 12:31:11 GMT
Ok, so in the short story, the POD is that David Twiggs was unable to assume command of the Department of Texas due to ill health, leaving Lee in command. And though Lee obviously had no qualms about fighting for the Confederacy in OTL, at the time the story takes place, Virginia was still in the Union. So Lee was bound by his own honor to continue to uphold his oath to the Union, despite his personal feelings. He and his command hole up in the Alamo, which was being used as a supply depot. In TTL, the first shots of the Civil War are fired at the Alamo with the Texas Militia attempting to seize the fort after Lee refused to surrender it. So he is essentially forced into fighting against the South by a quirk of fate and Virginia still being part of the Union at the time. He is eventually forced to surrender when the Wall is breached in March shortly after Lincoln is sworn in. By the time he reaches Washington, his story has been published across the nation and he is hailed as a hero in the Union and is even paraded through Washington as a hero. But by now, Virginia has also seceded. At this point, Lee is quite literally being torn in two, as he feels his loyalty needs to lie with Virginia, but he is being reviled as a traitor to the South for fighting to hold the Alamo. So he knows that he'll never be accepted in the South because of that. Add in OTL, he is offered command of the Union Army, and declines as he feels that he cannot fight against Virginia. Lincoln invites him to the White House and attempt to persuade him to accept before offering him command of the Western Theater of the War where he will not have to fight directly against Virginia with the caveat that he will be allowed to retire with honor should he feel he can no longer continue to serve the Union while his own state opposed it. Phew!! I did not intend for my summary to be that long! Lol. So, given that he has already engaged in combat against the South, I think that rules out Lee resigning his commission to join Virginia. My personal view is that, having already been forced into fighting the South, and combining it with his religious beliefs (not as extreme as Jackson's, but he was still a very devout man), he'll accept that it was divine providence that he act as he did and will willingly fight for the Union in the West. I'm thinking he probably gets command of the Department of the Ohio and leads that army. Now, what butterflies that has on the war could be huge. Lee is a far better general than anyone in the West in the first year of the war. Whether he ever goes east is beyond me. I could see him taking command as a way of ending the war as quickly as possible to end the suffering. And I can also see him refusing any appointment in the East.
Thanks for the summary. That does put Lee in a difficult position. I think Lee would either refuse to fight at all or as you say be willing to serve the union but not directly against Virginia as you say. Trend to think the former because if he continued to serve in the union forces after Virginia leaves the union he would be reviled there but if he say returned to Virginia on condition he didn't serve he would still be accepted there. Suspect that how he was viewed in Virginia would be most important to him.
Steve
That's kinda my take on him as well. In the story, he's already seen as a traitor in Virginia for not surrendering immediately like so many other Southern officers did. I also forgot to mention that, as he and his men were leaving the Alamo, he fired it and destroyed all the supplies there because the man he surrendered to failed to require the supplies be surrendered intact in the surrender documents. So his standing in the South is screwed. (As an aside, Turtledove really screwed Ben McColluh (sp) over in this story. He turned him into little more than a bumbling rank amateur, while in real life, he was actually a decent tactician and had a good understanding of how war was fought.) Back to Lee, given he was already seen as a traitor and was reviled in Virginia, would that effect his decision? If he was seen as just having done his duty while Virginia was still part of the Union, I could see him retiring and staying out of the fighting. But given the sheer number of other Southern officers who turned over their whole commands to the South, regardless of whether or not their state had seceded yet, I don't know if that will be an option for him. |
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