Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Sept 23, 2020 2:00:48 GMT
With its rise around the Mediterranean Sea giving way to a rich and centuries-long legacy that remains with us to this day, the Greco-Roman world stood tall as a bastion of science, art, law, and high culture until its tragic decline following the sacking of Rome in 410 A.D. But for all the contributions that have still been left to us--from Aristotle's philosophy to Roman influence within the Anglo-American legal tradition--the world that exists now, in the one-and-a-half millennia since the end of Classical Civilization, has become something that they'd find utterly unrecognizable.
That their lot would find it impossible to immediately make heads or tails of our world is pretty clear, but let's say that one curious ASB goes further than that by resurrecting a bunch of ancient Romans and Greeks from 300 A.D. or so, placing them in a vast and closed-off residential jurisdiction with familiar architecture and all the provisions they'd ever need so that they won't be forced to forage for themselves and start confrontations that could escalate into something much more ugly, if left unchecked. At the same time, ASB also leaves them a note that explains their current situation to them all in great detail, as well as plenty of user-tailored resources on the state of the world nowadays as well as exactly how it got there. This would encompass everything from modern appliances with meticulous instructions on how to use them, to all sorts of books and documentaries on over a thousand years of history that took place between the period they were sent from and the present day. So, having received the aid of a curious ASB so that they're not left to their own devices in a setting that they'd likely never understand on their own, what would these resurrected Greeks and Romans make of the modern world?
Leaving obvious factors like our mind-boggling technology aside, I imagine they'd find us contemporary people very "pampered" and "weak" thanks to how dependent we've become on all of our advancements to sustain us (even though they'd quickly see the appeal of things like modern medicine, I'm sure). They'd similarly disapprove of our social norms and contemporary culture, with our historically recent mentality of change and progress for its own sake probably unnerving societies as traditional and time-tested as theirs. On the flip side, the scale and destructive potential of modern conflicts--though tempered by conventions that they'd find rather foreign and perhaps too generous to the enemy--would probably astonish them, with the World Wars completely blowing anything in their initial frame of reference out of the water in terms of sheer death toll and showcasing the dark side of what modernity has brought into being. How they'd react to myriad and far-reaching geopolitical changes, considering all of the cultures and states that have risen and fallen during the past millennium or two, seems like something more difficult to gauge in one fell swoop--though how Britannia and Gallia eventually went on to forge two of the greatest empires the world has ever seen would doubtlessly surprise them, not to mention the fact that the most powerful nation to have ever walked the earth sits on a continent who existence they never knew of in the first place!
Anyways, that's all I have for now. Hopefully, we can keep the conversation going beyond just some initial musings of mine when it comes to how two interlocked, long-dead peoples would react to their distant descendants and the lives they lead in 2020 or thereabouts.
Thank you in advance, Zyobot
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Sept 23, 2020 11:29:49 GMT
Well initial thoughts, depending on what social background they have but suspect most would have been fairly well off - if their going to have enough education to be able to understand written information and the like - is that they would be amazed and probably shocked by a lot of social change. If they came from 300AD their used to a very autocratic state already struggling with numerous problems so most modern western ideas in terms of human rights, opposition to slavery and the like would be appalling to many of them. They might be more accepting of anti-racists ideas, although social barriers were already stiffening I think by this time. The pagans among them would probably mostly welcome the religious freedom, albeit its a few years/decades before Constantine came to power and they faced serious discrimination themselves, although the lack of an empire cult could shock them. Of course depending on the size of the community and how diverse it is there will be other viewpoint and there could be a wider spread of opinions than what we might think given the limited knowledge of people of this period.
Frankly they might find more in common with China, as its actually governed as opposed to the image it presents of itself.
Steve
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Sept 23, 2020 18:02:00 GMT
This may not be of much note relative to big-picture matters, but I can imagine that the more educated circles of Greco-Roman society would be bemused at the fact that--despite us having sent men to the moon and creating bombs capable of annihilating entire cities and irradiating where they once stood in one fell swoop--we still haven't rediscovered the recipe for Roman concrete.
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Sept 25, 2020 0:11:28 GMT
To repeat a question I asked in the OP, I’m curious as to how they’d react to the World Wars? Casual brutality may have been an everyday trope of the world they came from, but considering the oversized scale of the period between 1914 and 1945--ranging from combat and death tolls to production and supply lines--I find it hard to believe that the World Wars wouldn’t leave a lasting impression of some sort. Even if their responses aren’t as “soulful” or “reflective” as we’d probably hope for, namely whether or not they recognize Hitler and Stalin as rough contemporary equivalents to the likes of Caligula and/or Nero ( I'm reminded of some Quora answers as to what Julius Caesar would think of the former in particular). Or at least as despotic figures who weren’t good and virtuous people by any stretch of the imagination, even if their actions as political leaders weren’t something completely beyond the pale by ancient Greco-Roman standards. The Fallen of World War IIWhether Roman and Greek war veterans brought along for the ride will understand the significance of those wars--or have due respect for everything the survivors went through--I don't know. For those that do, a conversation between them and the few WW2 veterans still with us would prove a worthwhile discussion, I think. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Sept 25, 2020 9:15:18 GMT
To repeat a question I asked in the OP, I’m curious as to how they’d react to the World Wars? Casual brutality may have been an everyday trope of the world they came from, but considering the oversized scale of the period between 1914 and 1945--ranging from combat and death tolls to production and supply lines--I find it hard to believe that the World Wars wouldn’t leave a lasting impression of some sort. Even if their responses aren’t as “soulful” or “reflective” as we’d probably hope for, namely whether or not they recognize Hitler and Stalin as rough contemporary equivalents to the likes of Caligula and/or Nero ( I'm reminded of some Quora answers as to what Julius Caesar would think of the former in particular). Or at least as despotic figures who weren’t good and virtuous people by any stretch of the imagination, even if their actions as political leaders weren’t something completely beyond the pale by ancient Greco-Roman standards. The Fallen of World War IIWhether Roman and Greek war veterans brought along for the ride will understand the significance of those wars--or have due respect for everything the survivors went through--I don't know. For those that do, a conversation between them and the few WW2 veterans still with us would prove a worthwhile discussion, I think.
Thought provoking video thanks.
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Sept 25, 2020 9:51:35 GMT
To repeat a question I asked in the OP, I’m curious as to how they’d react to the World Wars? Casual brutality may have been an everyday trope of the world they came from, but considering the oversized scale of the period between 1914 and 1945--ranging from combat and death tolls to production and supply lines--I find it hard to believe that the World Wars wouldn’t leave a lasting impression of some sort. Even if their responses aren’t as “soulful” or “reflective” as we’d probably hope for, namely whether or not they recognize Hitler and Stalin as rough contemporary equivalents to the likes of Caligula and/or Nero ( I'm reminded of some Quora answers as to what Julius Caesar would think of the former in particular). Or at least as despotic figures who weren’t good and virtuous people by any stretch of the imagination, even if their actions as political leaders weren’t something completely beyond the pale by ancient Greco-Roman standards. The Fallen of World War IIWhether Roman and Greek war veterans brought along for the ride will understand the significance of those wars--or have due respect for everything the survivors went through--I don't know. For those that do, a conversation between them and the few WW2 veterans still with us would prove a worthwhile discussion, I think.
Thought provoking video thanks.
Certainly, man. Ideally, enough of the ancient Greeks and Romans who’ve come along for the ride would share that opinion. Given how modern media has entered the picture here, I wonder if their reactions to actual photos and footage of the horrors in question will change some minds. Namely dug-up mass graves, skin-and-bones Holocaust survivors just after their liberation, and the destruction wrecked by everything from artillery barrages to mass fire-bombing of civilians. And, of course, the atomic bombs exploding right as they’ve been dropped on Japan. Somehow, I suspect them to sputter some claptrap about how their wars “different” while ours are “impersonal and fought dishonorably“. Whatever the heck that means, given that sacrificing efficiency for some contrived form of “battle etiquette” is stupid and counterproductive. Refraining from causing needless misery towards enemy combatants and civilians remain an obvious objective, though. That, I think, would be another point of disagreement that arises between us and them (Geneva Convention and whatnot). |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Sept 25, 2020 10:29:02 GMT
Thought provoking video thanks.
Certainly, man. Ideally, enough of the ancient Greeks and Romans who’ve come along for the ride would share that opinion. Given how modern media has entered the picture here, I wonder if their reactions to actual photos and footage of the horrors in question will change some minds. Namely dug-up mass graves, skin-and-bones Holocaust survivors just after their liberation, and the destruction wrecked by everything from artillery barrages to mass fire-bombing of civilians. And, of course, the atomic bombs exploding right as they’ve been dropped on Japan. Somehow, I suspect them to sputter some claptrap about how their wars “different” while ours are “impersonal and fought dishonorably“. Whatever the heck that means, given that sacrificing efficiency for some contrived form of “battle etiquette” is stupid and counterproductive. Refraining from causing needless misery towards enemy combatants and civilians remain an obvious objective, though. That, I think, would be another point of disagreement that arises between us and them (Geneva Convention and whatnot).
Difficult to say. For one thing I suspect it would depend on who they were and what element of Roman society they came from. I doubt by 300AD there was much sense of warfare being honourable as it was already a pretty grim period. In many cases the empire was seeking to maintain order, both against internal rebellion and growing pressure on just about all borders. Plus most of them were much nearer to death and suffering so they might not be shocked by the manner of death of many people although they would probably see things like the Nazi murdering of Jews as pointless waste of resources, both in those it took to carry it out and if their seen as non-citizens then it makes logical sense to keep them as slaves and get work out of them. After all in earlier periods the expanding Rome was pretty brutal with opponents, as the Carthaginians found out for instance.
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Sept 25, 2020 14:56:12 GMT
Certainly, man. Ideally, enough of the ancient Greeks and Romans who’ve come along for the ride would share that opinion. Given how modern media has entered the picture here, I wonder if their reactions to actual photos and footage of the horrors in question will change some minds. Namely dug-up mass graves, skin-and-bones Holocaust survivors just after their liberation, and the destruction wrecked by everything from artillery barrages to mass fire-bombing of civilians. And, of course, the atomic bombs exploding right as they’ve been dropped on Japan. Somehow, I suspect them to sputter some claptrap about how their wars “different” while ours are “impersonal and fought dishonorably“. Whatever the heck that means, given that sacrificing efficiency for some contrived form of “battle etiquette” is stupid and counterproductive. Refraining from causing needless misery towards enemy combatants and civilians remain an obvious objective, though. That, I think, would be another point of disagreement that arises between us and them (Geneva Convention and whatnot).
Difficult to say. For one thing I suspect it would depend on who they were and what element of Roman society they came from. I doubt by 300AD there was much sense of warfare being honourable as it was already a pretty grim period. In many cases the empire was seeking to maintain order, both against internal rebellion and growing pressure on just about all borders. Plus most of them were much nearer to death and suffering so they might not be shocked by the manner of death of many people although they would probably see things like the Nazi murdering of Jews as pointless waste of resources, both in those it took to carry it out and if their seen as non-citizens then it makes logical sense to keep them as slaves and get work out of them. After all in earlier periods the expanding Rome was pretty brutal with opponents, as the Carthaginians found out for instance.
Them coming straight from the ancient world where life was much more brutal in most aspects, I can understand them being much less disgusted by the World Wars in principle. However, I'd think that all the new techniques and toys directed towards killing millions upon millions of people since their time--artillery barrages, bombing raids, chemical weapons, nukes, and industrialized murder factories--would be rather shocking in of themselves, at least at first. Perhaps they'll become desensitized once they realize that's the culmination of technology constantly advancing paired off with warfare between modern nation-states, but still.
As it relates to technology in particular, one thing they're bound to notice about us is how fast technology tends to advance as of the last three-hundred or so years. What might they make of game-changers like the Industrial Revolution, for example? True, we've certainly had the luxury of time to build off of the discoveries of previous generations, but the compounding speed at which it gets better and better isn't something the ancient Romans and Greeks would've been accustomed to (even keeping in mind the latter's technological parity for their time).
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Sept 25, 2020 16:24:55 GMT
Difficult to say. For one thing I suspect it would depend on who they were and what element of Roman society they came from. I doubt by 300AD there was much sense of warfare being honourable as it was already a pretty grim period. In many cases the empire was seeking to maintain order, both against internal rebellion and growing pressure on just about all borders. Plus most of them were much nearer to death and suffering so they might not be shocked by the manner of death of many people although they would probably see things like the Nazi murdering of Jews as pointless waste of resources, both in those it took to carry it out and if their seen as non-citizens then it makes logical sense to keep them as slaves and get work out of them. After all in earlier periods the expanding Rome was pretty brutal with opponents, as the Carthaginians found out for instance.
Them coming straight from the ancient world where life was much more brutal in most aspects, I can understand them being much less disgusted by the World Wars in principle. However, I'd think that all the new techniques and toys directed towards killing millions upon millions of people since their time--artillery barrages, bombing raids, chemical weapons, nukes, and industrialized murder factories--would be rather shocking in of themselves, at least at first. Perhaps they'll become desensitized once they realize that's the culmination of technology constantly advancing paired off with warfare between modern nation-states, but still.
As it relates to technology in particular, one thing they're bound to notice about us is how fast technology tends to advance as of the last three-hundred or so years. What might they make of game-changers like the Industrial Revolution, for example? True, we've certainly had the luxury of time to build off of the discoveries of previous generations, but the compounding speed at which it gets better and better isn't something the ancient Romans and Greeks would've been accustomed to (even keeping in mind the latter's technological parity for their time).
Good point on the latter. There were some technological advances in the earlier period but nothing like the scale of modern times or the fact the rate of change still seems to be increasing.
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Sept 25, 2020 16:59:50 GMT
Them coming straight from the ancient world where life was much more brutal in most aspects, I can understand them being much less disgusted by the World Wars in principle. However, I'd think that all the new techniques and toys directed towards killing millions upon millions of people since their time--artillery barrages, bombing raids, chemical weapons, nukes, and industrialized murder factories--would be rather shocking in of themselves, at least at first. Perhaps they'll become desensitized once they realize that's the culmination of technology constantly advancing paired off with warfare between modern nation-states, but still.
As it relates to technology in particular, one thing they're bound to notice about us is how fast technology tends to advance as of the last three-hundred or so years. What might they make of game-changers like the Industrial Revolution, for example? True, we've certainly had the luxury of time to build off of the discoveries of previous generations, but the compounding speed at which it gets better and better isn't something the ancient Romans and Greeks would've been accustomed to (even keeping in mind the latter's technological parity for their time).
Good point on the latter. There were some technological advances in the earlier period but nothing like the scale of modern times or the fact the rate of change still seems to be increasing.
Thank you. For obvious reasons, I imagine that the various Greco-Roman engineers and tinkerers will be eager--or at least, curious--to learn the ins and outs of how all our magical technology works. Likewise, historians will preoccupy themselves with studying how it was all came to be in the first place, while that one Roman engineer whose name I can't remember will eat his words about how all the knowledge in the world has already been discovered and that it's pointless to find more (assuming that he comes along for the ride, which there's no guarantee of here).
Also, though it probably receives less acknowledgement in AH circles, what would they make of the Scientific Revolution that laid much groundwork for industrialization to take hold? I'm not expert on the state of Greco-Roman natural philosophy around 300 or so, but I imagine that the notion that the universe operates according to consistent and systematically deducible principles--rather than according to the will of much more arbitrary and capricious forces like their gods--will intrigue them. The works of Isaac Newton and his contemporaries will generate some respectable interest among more inquisitive, knowledge-inclined Greeks and Romans, I'll bet.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Sept 26, 2020 10:56:00 GMT
Good point on the latter. There were some technological advances in the earlier period but nothing like the scale of modern times or the fact the rate of change still seems to be increasing.
Thank you. For obvious reasons, I imagine that the various Greco-Roman engineers and tinkerers will be eager--or at least, curious--to learn the ins and outs of how all our magical technology works. Likewise, historians will preoccupy themselves with studying how it was all came to be in the first place, while that one Roman engineer whose name I can't remember will eat his words about how all the knowledge in the world has already been discovered and that it's pointless to find more (assuming that he comes along for the ride, which there's no guarantee of here).
Also, though it probably receives less acknowledgement in AH circles, what would they make of the Scientific Revolution that laid much groundwork for industrialization to take hold? I'm not expert on the state of Greco-Roman natural philosophy around 300 or so, but I imagine that the notion that the universe operates according to consistent and systematically deducible principles--rather than according to the will of much more arbitrary and capricious forces like their gods--will intrigue them. The works of Isaac Newton and his contemporaries will generate some respectable interest among more inquisitive, knowledge-inclined Greeks and Romans, I'll bet.
That would be embarrassing for him if he's brought along. I remember reading of one scientist saying something like that towards the end of the 19thC. Then of course Mr Röntgen had his accident with some film and things changed rapidly.
Depend on how broad a selection they are but could see a wide range of reactions. Some might even see the development of ecological sciences as evidence for natural forces been predominant and decide that gives evidence of the pantheon actually still being relevant. More are likely to accept that the gods don't exist while its going to be interested to see how any Christians among them react to both the fact that Christ hasn't yet returned and brought the end of days with him and the differences with assorted modern Christian sects.
There will be a lot of interest in more modern technology and capacities but how much they will understand, especially of the more electronic devices I don't know.
Steve
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Sept 27, 2020 16:13:03 GMT
Thank you. For obvious reasons, I imagine that the various Greco-Roman engineers and tinkerers will be eager--or at least, curious--to learn the ins and outs of how all our magical technology works. Likewise, historians will preoccupy themselves with studying how it was all came to be in the first place, while that one Roman engineer whose name I can't remember will eat his words about how all the knowledge in the world has already been discovered and that it's pointless to find more (assuming that he comes along for the ride, which there's no guarantee of here).
Also, though it probably receives less acknowledgement in AH circles, what would they make of the Scientific Revolution that laid much groundwork for industrialization to take hold? I'm not expert on the state of Greco-Roman natural philosophy around 300 or so, but I imagine that the notion that the universe operates according to consistent and systematically deducible principles--rather than according to the will of much more arbitrary and capricious forces like their gods--will intrigue them. The works of Isaac Newton and his contemporaries will generate some respectable interest among more inquisitive, knowledge-inclined Greeks and Romans, I'll bet.
That would be embarrassing for him if he's brought along. I remember reading of one scientist saying something like that towards the end of the 19thC. Then of course Mr Röntgen had his accident with some film and things changed rapidly.
Depend on how broad a selection they are but could see a wide range of reactions. Some might even see the development of ecological sciences as evidence for natural forces been predominant and decide that gives evidence of the pantheon actually still being relevant. More are likely to accept that the gods don't exist while its going to be interested to see how any Christians among them react to both the fact that Christ hasn't yet returned and brought the end of days with him and the differences with assorted modern Christian sects.
There will be a lot of interest in more modern technology and capacities but how much they will understand, especially of the more electronic devices I don't know.
Steve
Having looked up that engineer just now--Sextus Julius Frontinus is what his name appears to have been--it turns out that by the standards I laid out in my original post, he lived way too early to have been whisked to the present along with the other Greeks and Romans  . Obviously, I doubt he'd be able to stand by that initial statement in good faith once he gets wind of how many new technologies have arisen long after his death. Perhaps you could get the wiser ones to accept that "no, our various devices that do everything from play music to conjure a global repository of knowledge in a moment's notice don't actually have a bunch of little men inside of them"--but even then, that's still the biggest possible mind-screw for a people who had no concept of all the magical trinkets and contraptions that we take for granted today. That, and as said before, the rate at which they advance becomes progressively faster and faster with time, so there's that.
I suppose that there being--or at least appearing to be--consistent laws by which the universe operates doesn't preclude the existence of higher beings like their gods. Though by that same token, it doesn't prove that they exist either (even betting on the "safe option" via a pantheon-friendly version of Pascal's Wager, you still have yet to determine precisely which supernatural power is your best bet). Like you said, Christians' reactions are bound to prove interesting--not only because of how Christianity came to dominate over a thousand years after Rome collapsed, but also because of how Jesus's absence over all that time could very well stir up debate and outright doubt within the Christian community.
Moreover, as it concerns religion more broadly, what might they make of the various new faiths that have sprung up between their time and ours--Islam being the most obvious example? Almost certainly, the Greco-Romans had a concept of other religions besides their own (probably picking up a thing or two about Germanic paganism over the years). But either way, it'd still be a new creed that they have no preexisting familiarity with. They'll also no doubt hear of Islamic theocracies like Iran and Saudi Arabia in the course of their studies. Not to mention terrorist groups like Al-Qaeda and ISIS, since they're the poster boys for a far more radical and insidious interpretation of that religion.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Sept 27, 2020 19:34:37 GMT
That would be embarrassing for him if he's brought along. I remember reading of one scientist saying something like that towards the end of the 19thC. Then of course Mr Röntgen had his accident with some film and things changed rapidly.
Depend on how broad a selection they are but could see a wide range of reactions. Some might even see the development of ecological sciences as evidence for natural forces been predominant and decide that gives evidence of the pantheon actually still being relevant. More are likely to accept that the gods don't exist while its going to be interested to see how any Christians among them react to both the fact that Christ hasn't yet returned and brought the end of days with him and the differences with assorted modern Christian sects.
There will be a lot of interest in more modern technology and capacities but how much they will understand, especially of the more electronic devices I don't know.
Steve
Having looked up that engineer just now--Sextus Julius Frontinus is what his name appears to have been--it turns out that by the standards I laid out in my original post, he lived way too early to have been whisked to the present along with the other Greeks and Romans . Obviously, I doubt he'd be able to stand by that initial statement in good faith once he gets wind of how many new technologies have arisen long after his death. Perhaps you could get the wiser ones to accept that "no, our various devices that do everything from play music to conjure a global repository of knowledge in a moment's notice don't actually have a bunch of little men inside of them"--but even then, that's still the biggest possible mind-screw for a people who had no concept of all the magical trinkets and contraptions that we take for granted today. That, and as said before, the rate at which they advance becomes progressively faster and faster with time, so there's that.
I suppose that there being--or at least appearing to be--consistent laws by which the universe operates doesn't preclude the existence of higher beings like their gods. Though by that same token, it doesn't prove that they exist either (even betting on the "safe option" via a pantheon-friendly version of Pascal's Wager, you still have yet to determine precisely which supernatural power is your best bet). Like you said, Christians' reactions are bound to prove interesting--not only because of how Christianity came to dominate over a thousand years after Rome collapsed, but also because of how Jesus's absence over all that time could very well stir up debate and outright doubt within the Christian community.
Moreover, as it concerns religion more broadly, what might they make of the various new faiths that have sprung up between their time and ours--Islam being the most obvious example? Almost certainly, the Greco-Romans had a concept of other religions besides their own (probably picking up a thing or two about Germanic paganism over the years). But either way, it'd still be a new creed that they have no preexisting familiarity with. They'll also no doubt hear of Islamic theocracies like Iran and Saudi Arabia in the course of their studies. Not to mention terrorist groups like Al-Qaeda and ISIS, since they're the poster boys for a far more radical and insidious interpretation of that religion.
On that last point they definitely know about a lot of other religions and they might be surprised how few are left. Although it was suffering some difficulties I believe the disappearance of the Egyptian religion after so many millennia of existence would probably shock them as well as of so many other religions that they were familiar with, from the Celtic ones of the west which were still going strong in their time to those they knew about from traders, of distant India as well as a wide range from across Europe, western Asia and Africa. After all the three main cults that were contesting for prominence in the empire at this point, of Sol the Sun God, of Mithras and Christianity all came from the near east.
The Christians among them are likely to be happy about the victory of their faith but possibly shocked that the divisions of their time have gotten far worse and quite possibly some of the policies of some churches, both recent and in the intervening centuries.
Both would probably consider Islam as a break-away from the Judo-Christian system, which in many ways it is. Christians will be upset at the loss of the core lands of their faith although possibly relieved that it has spread to many other areas, such as the Americas and southern Africa.
Steve
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Sept 27, 2020 23:07:52 GMT
Having looked up that engineer just now--Sextus Julius Frontinus is what his name appears to have been--it turns out that by the standards I laid out in my original post, he lived way too early to have been whisked to the present along with the other Greeks and Romans . Obviously, I doubt he'd be able to stand by that initial statement in good faith once he gets wind of how many new technologies have arisen long after his death. Perhaps you could get the wiser ones to accept that "no, our various devices that do everything from play music to conjure a global repository of knowledge in a moment's notice don't actually have a bunch of little men inside of them"--but even then, that's still the biggest possible mind-screw for a people who had no concept of all the magical trinkets and contraptions that we take for granted today. That, and as said before, the rate at which they advance becomes progressively faster and faster with time, so there's that.
I suppose that there being--or at least appearing to be--consistent laws by which the universe operates doesn't preclude the existence of higher beings like their gods. Though by that same token, it doesn't prove that they exist either (even betting on the "safe option" via a pantheon-friendly version of Pascal's Wager, you still have yet to determine precisely which supernatural power is your best bet). Like you said, Christians' reactions are bound to prove interesting--not only because of how Christianity came to dominate over a thousand years after Rome collapsed, but also because of how Jesus's absence over all that time could very well stir up debate and outright doubt within the Christian community.
Moreover, as it concerns religion more broadly, what might they make of the various new faiths that have sprung up between their time and ours--Islam being the most obvious example? Almost certainly, the Greco-Romans had a concept of other religions besides their own (probably picking up a thing or two about Germanic paganism over the years). But either way, it'd still be a new creed that they have no preexisting familiarity with. They'll also no doubt hear of Islamic theocracies like Iran and Saudi Arabia in the course of their studies. Not to mention terrorist groups like Al-Qaeda and ISIS, since they're the poster boys for a far more radical and insidious interpretation of that religion.
On that last point they definitely know about a lot of other religions and they might be surprised how few are left. Although it was suffering some difficulties I believe the disappearance of the Egyptian religion after so many millennia of existence would probably shock them as well as of so many other religions that they were familiar with, from the Celtic ones of the west which were still going strong in their time to those they knew about from traders, of distant India as well as a wide range from across Europe, western Asia and Africa. After all the three main cults that were contesting for prominence in the empire at this point, of Sol the Sun God, of Mithras and Christianity all came from the near east.
The Christians among them are likely to be happy about the victory of their faith but possibly shocked that the divisions of their time have gotten far worse and quite possibly some of the policies of some churches, both recent and in the intervening centuries.
Both would probably consider Islam as a break-away from the Judo-Christian system, which in many ways it is. Christians will be upset at the loss of the core lands of their faith although possibly relieved that it has spread to many other areas, such as the Americas and southern Africa.
Steve
Hopefully, as in all things, there are at least a few educated Romans willing to come forward and enlighten us on what they knew about these religions that we don't (given how so much has been lost to time). The thorough Christianization of the Celts, Anglo-Saxons and other such peoples would've almost certainly done a number on the breadth of knowledge available to future generations, I'll bet.
As it concerns the new places that Christianity has spread to, what might the Greeks and Romans think of the New World? I pointed out in the original post that the most powerful nation to have ever walked the earth just happens to preside there, on a gigantic landmass whose existence they knew nothing about prior to the ISOT. However, the next round of questions on their minds will no doubt concern how it was discovered as late as it was and the gradual, highly contested process by which it was eventually settled (Columbus and his crew weren't the first to land there, I know). Not to mention how the United States went from a collection of rebellious British colonies to the reigning global superpower in less than three-hundred years as its own, sovereign nation.
Britain, Gaul and Spain forging some of the world's greatest empires aside, what might they make of other nation-states and distinct cultural identities that have emerged since Rome's collapse? Russia is the first that comes to mind for me, but there are no doubt others (such as India and maybe also Mongolia). The sheer size that the Mongol Empire reached thanks to Genghis Khan's conquests will be of note to them, even if they don't necessarily appreciate the fact that it overshadowed Rome in terms of territory taken (though in fairness, it did disintegrate into separate Khanates much faster). For those "successor societies" that'd be more familiar to to the Greeks and Romans, there's also the various German states that took shape over the centuries before their final unification in the 1870s; that's certainly not something to gloss over--and for more reasons than one, if you know what I mean.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Sept 28, 2020 14:50:13 GMT
On that last point they definitely know about a lot of other religions and they might be surprised how few are left. Although it was suffering some difficulties I believe the disappearance of the Egyptian religion after so many millennia of existence would probably shock them as well as of so many other religions that they were familiar with, from the Celtic ones of the west which were still going strong in their time to those they knew about from traders, of distant India as well as a wide range from across Europe, western Asia and Africa. After all the three main cults that were contesting for prominence in the empire at this point, of Sol the Sun God, of Mithras and Christianity all came from the near east.
The Christians among them are likely to be happy about the victory of their faith but possibly shocked that the divisions of their time have gotten far worse and quite possibly some of the policies of some churches, both recent and in the intervening centuries.
Both would probably consider Islam as a break-away from the Judo-Christian system, which in many ways it is. Christians will be upset at the loss of the core lands of their faith although possibly relieved that it has spread to many other areas, such as the Americas and southern Africa.
Steve
Hopefully, as in all things, there are at least a few educated Romans willing to come forward and enlighten us on what they knew about these religions that we don't (given how so much has been lost to time). The thorough Christianization of the Celts, Anglo-Saxons and other such peoples would've almost certainly done a number on the breadth of knowledge available to future generations, I'll bet.
As it concerns the new places that Christianity has spread to, what might the Greeks and Romans think of the New World? I pointed out in the original post that the most powerful nation to have ever walked the earth just happens to preside there, on a gigantic landmass whose existence they knew nothing about prior to the ISOT. However, the next round of questions on their minds will no doubt concern how it was discovered as late as it was and the gradual, highly contested process by which it was eventually settled (Columbus and his crew weren't the first to land there, I know). Not to mention how the United States went from a collection of rebellious British colonies to the reigning global superpower in less than three-hundred years as its own, sovereign nation.
Britain, Gaul and Spain forging some of the world's greatest empires aside, what might they make of other nation-states and distinct cultural identities that have emerged since Rome's collapse? Russia is the first that comes to mind for me, but there are no doubt others (such as India and maybe also Mongolia). The sheer size that the Mongol Empire reached thanks to Genghis Khan's conquests will be of note to them, even if they don't necessarily appreciate the fact that it overshadowed Rome in terms of territory taken (though in fairness, it did disintegrate into separate Khanates much faster). For those "successor societies" that'd be more familiar to to the Greeks and Romans, there's also the various German states that took shape over the centuries before their final unification in the 1870s; that's certainly not something to gloss over--and for more reasons than one, if you know what I mean.
There's a hell of a lot of 'history' that post-dates them and some of them will have interest in that. Possibly only really those who are historians are likely to be interested pass the 'bad' bits about the fall of their empire. After all its not something they can do anything about it and assorted 'barbarians' who came after them may be of minimal interest.
With the US there might be some more interest, both because its the current super-power and because the founders of the US seem to have based some of their ideas on the Roman Republic and some of the Romans could see parallels. A state that wins independence from a foreign ruler and expands rapidly to form a large empire then steadily surpasses every other nation - although their views on developments with China could be interesting. Shouldn't be surprised however if many/most are puzzled than the US hasn't simply nuked China into oblivion, because that's almost certainly what any Roman ruler would do to a potential rival when they had the power to and because they would struggle to understand the wider political and ecological impacts of such actions.
They would be able to tell us a lot about ancient religions in the regions they have experience of - although we're going to have to watch for some bias probably occurring in some cases. Most especially probably religion inside Rome itself and a lot of information about key figures of their time and earlier which has since been lost. Although again we would have to check data because there could be bias or simply their education was incomplete. For instance a recent defeated rival to the current emperor is unlikely to have a fair press in what they were told.
Steve
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. Obviously, I doubt he'd be able to stand by that initial statement in good faith once he gets wind of how many new technologies have arisen long after his death. Perhaps you could get the wiser ones to accept that "no, our various devices that do everything from play music to conjure a global repository of knowledge in a moment's notice don't actually have a bunch of little men inside of them"--but even then, that's still the biggest possible mind-screw for a people who had no concept of all the magical trinkets and contraptions that we take for granted today. That, and as said before, the rate at which they advance becomes progressively faster and faster with time, so there's that.