Greco-Roman Peoples React To Modern World

   Zyobot ,

Now that the parameters we're starting out with have been cleared up, another aspect of this scenario that's been on my mind is how the Greeks and Romans might learn today's languages? I'm sure it's possible for more linguistically inclined downtimers to learn in principle, though the fact that they have no scholars or universities who know about them from the get-go means that they'll need uptimer help to get started.

This also assumes they're even willing to take it, which is debatable thanks to conservative backlash on the part of more moralistic, culturally "purist" elements of the Greco-Roman population. Knowing them, our languages will at least peripherally skirt into their line of attack, and probably for misguided reasons like how learning them allows their people to make sense of "degenerate" uptimer media and will lead to lots of "strange" foreign loanwords worming their way into their "undefiled" Greek/Latin. Even if for whatever reason they don't put up much of a fight in that respect, the fact that they maintain a cultural superiority complex probably means that they'd mourn how Greek/Latin don't command the same prestige as was once the case (continued legal, religious and scientific usage notwithstanding).

If, however, more than a handful of Greeks and Romans were in a position to learn, then I think it'd prove a much more interesting experience than a typical case of "native speaker of Language A is currently learning Language B". Because I don't know much about the other major trade languages there are to master--Spanish, Arabic, Mandarin Chinese, etc.--most of my initial thoughts here will cover English. In that case, some of the first key points that come to mind for me are grammar, spelling, and vocabulary.

Latin being an inflected language where words change depending on how they're being used in different contexts, I imagine that sticking to English's more analytic word order would be rather foreign. As would its definite/indefinite articles, distinct lack of grammatical gender, and a tense system that acts in rather interesting ways sometimes. How much experience they have with those sorts of linguistic conventions heading into this scenario (due to my unfamiliarity with whatever Germanic languages they'd have known about), I'm not sure.

English vocabulary also strikes me as a mixed bag for them. There's plenty of English words with Latin and Greek roots, but English has also borrowed words from all over the world thanks to British (and maybe to some extent American) exploration, vastly increasing the array of words that there are to memorize. Plus, there are plenty of terms and concepts that the Romans had no straightforward equivalent for, such as airplane or television; those would prove hard to explain for reasons other than simply being easily lost in translation, I'd think. Nonetheless, I imagine that English's uniquely "open" and "innovative" tendencies will be of great notice to Greco-Roman linguists who bother studying it, though whether they'd see it as largely positive, negative or not really give a damn may depend on the linguist in question, as I don't know whether Latin and/or Greek ever cultivated similar reputations while they were still the great lingua francas of their heyday.

For those Greeks and Romans who do successfully learn it, I wonder how their accents might sound? I know less about Greece, but I'm fairly certain that upwards of ninety-nine percent of Anglophonic Romans won't speak with conspicuous British accents (much to the surprise of the average uptimer on the street, unfortunately).

Perhaps the rather silly Open University video below will provide beginners with some useful (though nonessential) context. As will The History of English Podcast, for those who want something more comprehensive.

History of English (combined)

Yeah, that figures. Nonetheless, the fact that Italian and Greek don't command the same universality as the other lingua francas I mentioned probably means that it's in their interest to learn at least one of those. English seems like a likely choice in that case, even if it's not the first uptimer language they learn. Still, given its unprecedented global dominance in ways ranging from the total number of Anglophones (though not native speakers) to the ubiquity of English-language media, it's a pretty reasonable move. How ancient Roman/Greek accents will sound once the first batch of them have become fluent, I'm curious to speculate on.



That's not something I thought of the first time around, and you're not the only one to point it out (I posted this same thread on AH.com as well). But the familiar etymology of words like television isn't the point, so much as the fact that the Greco-Romans' lack of an equivalent word due to the fact that they don't have a concept of it to begin with means that such terms would require explanation that goes beyond mere translation. As would other distinctly modern terms like smartphone, firearm, nuclear, and others. How downtimers might go about Latinizing/Grecizing these words when they eventually reach their islands, I don't know.



I was also thinking that, but I do anticipate certain hurdles beyond the problems automatically associated with uptimer-downtimer language barriers to start out with. The more reactionary elements of the population I mentioned earlier would attempt (but in the long term likely fail) to stop it, namely more conservative paterfamilias' who will prevent their kids from leaving. Them being a similarly patriarchal society, I expect many ancient Greek fathers to act the same way.

What you mention about Latin and Greek as they were spoken in the (Western) Roman Empire's twilight years does raise an interesting point. Because while this scenario presents a golden opportunity for historians, linguists and Classicists to perfect their incomplete knowledge of how these languages were originally spoken, the fact that they'll naturally die out within a few generations may incense reactionary Greeks and Romans to aggressively preserve them while they still can. By which I mean vocally agitating against learning uptimer languages, as well as staunchly resisting any loanwords or other foreign quirks that almost invariably creep into the Greek/Latin they speak. Cato the Elder may not be here to stymie uptimer influences of all kinds from "corrupting" the youth and "diluting" the culture, but there are always plenty of like-minded "family value" moralists who will do so regardless.

Adapting uptimer words for their own languages might make sense if the whole of Greece and the Roman Empire were sent along, yes. Given the sheer amount of vocabulary that they have no easy equivalents for, though, I can see most of them probably creeping in without too much alteration (everyday words that they'll wind up using all the time notwithstanding, probably).



Perhaps not, though for those Greco-Romans seeking to do business internationally or travel to some Anglospheric country(s), mastering English would prove invaluable for them. That may not be as many downtimer Anglophones as I was initially projecting, but at least the more adventurous ones and somewhat wealthier people who can afford to travel long distances will learn it.

Once they get become accustomed to modern Greek or Italian, I'm also curious as to whether they'll study other languages spoken locally? They'll almost certainly be other Indo-European ones like French and/or Spanish, which will also get them far in terms of international communication. How much room there is for them to become acquainted with Slavic languages, due to how that diaspora seems to mainly be concentrated in Eastern Europe and Central Asia, I'm not sure. But if places as new to them as Russia or Poland arouse much interest (and I'm sure they will), then some subset of the more adventurous ones may very well study those.

The odds of them studying non-European languages like Arabic or Mandarin Chinese do evade me, but at least in the short term, my gut instinct leans towards them largely shelving those for now. Not only because of the "familiarity factor" that comes with mastering tongues descended from the ones you speak already, but also because of how far English and other European lingua francas will get you as is (rendering a working knowledge of Mandarin redundant for them in many cases).




In principle, I can see your point. But in practice, I'm concerned that uptimer demands for the Greco-Romans to end their most outdated practices--crucifixion, slavery, systemic misogyny, abandoning/killing unwanted babies, and undoubtedly a host of others I'm missing--may make them a whole lot less receptive to what modern society brings to the table. True, we've certainly drawn inspiration from certain traditions of theirs and have come to view them as mighty and high-achieving civilizations for their time, but acknowledgement of what we think of as their achievements isn't the same as respecting their cultures as a whole. And if we tell them to shut it down or else as soon as introductions are out of the way, that'll give the moralists and their demagogue spokesmen the ammunition they need to whip everyday Greeks and Romans into a frenzy and spur a wave of arch-reactionary doubling down and anti-uptimer scaremongering.

That, and at least Christianity was something they were at least somewhat used to at that point in time. But for entirely new conventions like human rights, they won't have nearly as much before being brief introduced and expected to embrace them shortly thereafter (which is very unrealistic, especially when they don't think you'll extend their cultures the same courtesy). In short, I doubt that they'll be as flexible and open-minded as you anticipate--even if I wish that the opposite were true instead.

Because of our obvious sheer technological prowess from day one, I wonder what they'll make of footage of this legendary moment in our history (and are given proper context so that they know what it's capturing, as well)?

Restored Apollo 11 Moonwalk - Original NASA EVA Mission Video - Walking on the Moon


At that point, I've a feeling that more sensible Greeks and Romans will swallow their pride and realize that their achievements were not, in fact, the apex of what human civilization is capable of. Not when the dominant power this era was the first to land on the freaking Moon, and while directing less total computing power to that undertaking than our individual smartphones possess, to boot!

That was a point I raised in the AH.com version of this thread. It's one thing to grasp cars as gas/electricity-powered transportation machines, it's another to wrap their heads around more abstract things like computing power. One person did make a good point that the internet can be explained as a means of exchanging all sorts of messages and media via electricity and our devices, though--which is still a reductive explanation, but considering that this is ancient Greco-Romans who we're talking about, it's probably a good start.



Well, considering how the arch-conservatives would bitch and moan about just about anything and everything "new" under the sun, I suppose anger at our "intrusion into divine territory" is something to be expected from them. How they'd go about intellectually defending their position, even though their attempts to thwart it would be a lost cause from the get-go, I don't have high hopes for. For the more well-educated members in their ranks, perhaps they'd do well to become acquainted with all the advancements in scientific knowledge and philosophical reasoning before trying to argue against space exploration--and even then, a good share of them may change their minds as they learn more.

Since you mention what we now know about the Solar System and greater universe as a whole, I'm also curious as to what they'd make of other space-exploration attempts aside from the Moon landings? It may be old news by our standards, but Sputnik alone is bound to impress them for a) being an artificial satellite and b) getting off the ground at all, even if human flight has been around for decades at the time it was launched. Never mind the Space Race in general, with even less earth-shattering feats of engineering--like probes, rovers and shuttles--not escaping their notice, either. There's also the fact that space exploration has since become more commercially and geopolitically competitive, especially with China, India and the European Union becoming new players in a once-dipolar game between the United States and Soviet Russia.

And, since we're talking about their likely reactions to space, maybe we should show them this and see how they react.


I'd also suggest showing them space-themed movies like Apollo 13 and The Martian, though I'm not sure how true-to-former the former is. That, and the idea of moving pictures with accompanying sound is yet another rabbit hole that deserves its own, separate discussion--which I'd be more than happy to have here, mind you .