simon darkshade
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Post by simon darkshade on May 26, 2023 7:15:49 GMT
As of 1972, there wasn't a big market for 1939-1943 tanks anywhere on Earth, based on the usage of Shermans and early T-34/76s. Ergo, a lot would be scrapped or sold for civilian purposes (such as film/television, industrial conversions and private collectors).
Note that I said 'on Earth'. In DE, there are other planets, which in this case means Mars. Quite a few of the older Crusaders get passed down to the British Martian Army and sold to other friendly Martian forces as a means of getting the best return on investment possible.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on May 26, 2023 7:34:01 GMT
Note that I said 'on Earth'. In DE, there are other planets, which in this case means Mars. Quite a few of the older Crusaders get passed down to the British Martian Army and sold to other friendly Martian forces as a means of getting the best return on investment possible. I assume transport cost must be cheap to transport these tanks to other planets, also do the tanks need some modifications to operate on other planets like Mars. |
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simon darkshade
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Post by simon darkshade on May 26, 2023 7:50:32 GMT
They aren't particularly cheap, but squeezing a few dozen at a time on board on of the freighters of the Mars Convoy isn't that difficult or egregiously expensive.
They don't require any modifications on Mars.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on May 26, 2023 13:15:59 GMT
Very, very few. Consider the @ Cold War experience of reserve stocks and tank attrition. Damage to a tank usually means putting on a new track, replacing the engine or other such repair; they are fairly resilient vehicles, not throwaway items. As a result, the British Empire’s tank stocks are fairly deep - only in 1972 are they starting to dispose of WW2 era Crusader tanks. The inactive stockpile consists of Super Crusaders and earlier Centurions, then the active stockpile of later Centurions and the 125mm Armed Super Centurions, then the war reserve stocks of quite new Chieftains.
The problems with having huge stockpiles of elderly vehicles would be the costs of maintaining them - and checking that that maintenance is actually being done which seems to have been a problem for the Soviet/Russia stockpile - plus keeping spares for such vehicles and having people familiar enough with them to use them efficiently. If their only disposing of 30 year old vehicles in 1972 then I would wonder if too much is being stockpiled, as well as the combat effectiveness of such units if their not been expensively upgrades with new electronics. Especially since disposal seems to be transferring to other theatres or 3rd world customers.
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simon darkshade
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Post by simon darkshade on May 26, 2023 13:39:30 GMT
A decent observation that merits a decent answer: - This isn't the Soviet system, but a British one built up since 1918 where it first started, unsurprisingly, with artillery - The vehicles and guns are stored in underground caverns specially kept at precise temperatures with minor enchantments - Insofar as the tank stockpile was concerned, a reasonable number of the large reserves of WW2 tanks were bought out of storage during the Korean War rearmament period, largely to equip the TA. These were replaced by the accelerated Centurion production programme, with the last Crusader/Super Crusader being retired from reserve divisions of the British Army in 1952 - Holding onto them *just in case* is something I've touched upon in A New Jerusalem and Imperial Defence from 1964/65. What happened to throw off the schedule of disposal? Vietnam - Once the war in the Far East was over and the risk of escalation died off, then the delayed spring cleaning of the war reserve stocks could begin - How much are we talking about? Perhaps 3000 of the older Crusaders (out of 29000) and 5000 of the postwar Super Crusaders (out of 6893) produced 1945-1952 - Centurion production in Britain was 1944-1956 for 24,879 plus another 4496 Super Centurions (upgraded armour and the 125mm gun of the Chieftain) from 1957-1962. On top of that, we need to add the consistent production in Canada from 1945-1960 (which largely catered to export) and India's production run from 1950-1970. Australia built its own tanks and those of New Zealand and South Africa produced its own and those of Rhodesia. - Some Commonwealth production rates in the 1960s are here: alternate-timelines.proboards.com/thread/3409/dark-earth-general-discussion?page=18&scrollTo=163582- Centurion tanks and 1950s APCs, lorries, Land Rovers etc are all pre-electronics |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on May 26, 2023 14:06:44 GMT
A decent observation that merits a decent answer: - This isn't the Soviet system, but a British one built up since 1918 where it first started, unsurprisingly, with artillery - The vehicles and guns are stored in underground caverns specially kept at precise temperatures with minor enchantments - Insofar as the tank stockpile was concerned, a reasonable number of the large reserves of WW2 tanks were bought out of storage during the Korean War rearmament period, largely to equip the TA. These were replaced by the accelerated Centurion production programme, with the last Crusader/Super Crusader being retired from reserve divisions of the British Army in 1952 - Holding onto them *just in case* is something I've touched upon in A New Jerusalem and Imperial Defence from 1964/65. What happened to throw off the schedule of disposal? Vietnam - Once the war in the Far East was over and the risk of escalation died off, then the delayed spring cleaning of the war reserve stocks could begin - How much are we talking about? Perhaps 3000 of the older Crusaders (out of 29000) and 5000 of the postwar Super Crusaders (out of 6893) produced 1945-1952 - Centurion production in Britain was 1944-1956 for 24,879 plus another 4496 Super Centurions (upgraded armour and the 125mm gun of the Chieftain) from 1957-1962. On top of that, we need to add the consistent production in Canada from 1945-1960 (which largely catered to export) and India's production run from 1950-1970. Australia built its own tanks and those of New Zealand and South Africa produced its own and those of Rhodesia. - Some Commonwealth production rates in the 1960s are here: alternate-timelines.proboards.com/thread/3409/dark-earth-general-discussion?page=18&scrollTo=163582- Centurion tanks and 1950s APCs, lorries, Land Rovers etc are all pre-electronics
On this last point true but their going to be at an even bigger disadvantage if they are working without modern sights, night viewers and the like. That was my point there. Alternatively would the government/military decide lashing out on building and installing such equipment for tanks that ideally will never be used. Possibly given the very large construction lines in the DE Earth but it may be an issue.
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simon darkshade
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Post by simon darkshade on May 26, 2023 15:50:46 GMT
As a point of information, they do have the equivalent of night vision in the form of darksight adaptors. The pre 1960s Centurions have more mechanical sights compared to the electronic and laser equipment installed in the 1960s, but retrofitting that equipment isn't an inordinate expense for a government that puts a high priority on conventional forces and reserves.
It was be a matter of upgrading ~8000 of the later model Centurions that make up the bulk of the war reserve stocks, along with 4000 Super Centurions.
In terms of numbers, the Regular Army has 97% of its target Crusader fleet of 7680 by the end of 1972, the TA has 8640 Chieftains and there are 3360 Chieftains in Active Reserve (12,000). That leaves 7400 being sold as surplus to Sweden (600), Norway (600), Denmark (500), the Netherlands (1650), Belgium (1650) and Persia (2400) and ~5000 laid up as Reserve War Stocks; further overseas sales (Yugoslavia, Albania, Greece and Bulgaria are in the market) will come out of Indian production and Commonwealth surplus stocks. Should the Arabs and South Americans look to make an order of Chieftains rather than the expected Valiants in the next few years, which is possible, then some production lines will be reactivated.
Chieftain production: 24567
1957: 584
1958: 1856
1959: 1944
1960: 2549
1961: 1807
1962: 1865
1963: 1963
1964: 1984
1965: 2032
1966: 1910
1967: 1760
1968: 1908
1969: 1745
1970: 421
1971: 239
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simon darkshade
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Post by simon darkshade on May 26, 2023 16:09:19 GMT
I think one key theme that comes out of this exchange is a recognition that the older generations of equipment are progressively less useful without requisite investment; and the accompanying idea that it is becoming too costly to replace all wartime/40s and Korean War/50s generation equipment on a one for one basis. This was done with the Chieftain and FV-432 of the 1960s, but the Crusader and FV-525 of the 1970s are a further jump up. However, the inherent conservatism involved in the Defence of the Realm ensures that the ~12,000 Centurions aren't going away any time soon. Just in case.
Additionally, the requirements for small arms and vehicles are going to drop, leading to an increased emphasis on exports, right as markets open up in Africa, India, Asia and South America.
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simon darkshade
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Post by simon darkshade on Jun 20, 2023 11:29:33 GMT
National Parks of Britain 1972
Lake District
Peak District
Dartmoor
Snowdonia
Pembrokeshire Coast
Yorkshire Moors
Yorkshire Dales
Exmoor
Sherwood Forest
Coast of Cornwall
Isles of Scilly
Anglesey
The Shire/Hartshire
Vale of Belvoir
Northumberland
Cambrian Mountains
Brecon Beacons
Northern Pennines
The Broads
New Forest
Forest of Dean
South Downs
Chiltern Hills
Cotswolds
Forest of Bowland
High Weald
Cairngorms
St Kilda
Glencoe
Loch Lomond
Trossachs
Highland Glens
Wester Ross
Golden Isles
Forest of Lyon
Cathbad Hills
White Mountains
Vale of Avalon
Mountains of Mourne
Killarney Forest
Connemara
Wild Nephin
Wicklow Mountains
The Burren
Glen Tuatha
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jun 20, 2023 13:57:25 GMT
National Parks of Britain 1972 Lake District Peak District Dartmoor Snowdonia Pembrokeshire Coast Yorkshire Moors Yorkshire Dales Exmoor Sherwood Forest Coast of Cornwall Isles of Scilly Anglesey Vale of Belvoir Northumberland Cambrian Mountains Brecon Beacons Northern Pennines The Broads New Forest Forest of Dean South Downs Chiltern Hills Cotswolds Forest of Bowland High Weald Cairngorms St Kilda Glencoe Loch Lomond Trossachs Highland Glens Wester Ross Golden Isles Forest of Lyon Cathbad Hills White Mountains Vale of Avalon Mountains of Mourne Killarney Forest Connemara Wild Nephin Wicklow Mountains The Burren Glen Tuatha Regular ore also with magic ore ore creature living there i might want to check out if i lived in DE Britian. |
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simon darkshade
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Post by simon darkshade on Jun 20, 2023 14:10:39 GMT
In this case, a National Park is a combination of @ British national parks that developed after 1949 (here they appear earlier) in concert with Areas of Outstanding Natural Beauty. They are in the main beautiful natural environments of a regular sort, but there are supernatural and supranatural creatures and features aplenty. I plan to do some stuff on some of them in a future piece.
One of the takeaways here is that there is a stronger environmentalist tinge to politics and popular culture, but it wouldn't be called that here, where Naturalism is the term applied. It comes from a combination of the influence of the elves and halflings, the nature of the land, the influence of the druids (a different group here that sticks around in a semi D&D druidic fashion rather than Getafix), the impact of the two world wars and an increasing awareness of the fragility of nature along with its value; I even have a thought that the continuation of the non-dissolved monasteries may have a little bit of a role to play. It is also an environmentalism devoid of the political polarisation that occurred down the line in the 1970s-90s, when it fell in some respects into a Right/Progress vs Left/Protection paradigm - here, it is a bipartisan value and matter of consensus.
This gives me a few ideas about further 1970s directions that I'll assemble directly.
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simon darkshade
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Post by simon darkshade on Jun 20, 2023 15:39:30 GMT
Just over a year ago, I had these thoughts on 1970s Britain
- No waves of strikes and industrial strife and certainly no Winter of Discontent
- Britain will be overtaken by Japan economically, but won’t be the sick man of Europe
- Traditional heavy industries in the North, Scotland and Wales remain important and strong, rather than being allowed to die off
- A very different decade for the British automotive industry
- Few of the @ subcultures will emerge. Certainly no punks
- The Troubles in Ireland are absent here. There will be something going on there, but not of the same character
- More TV and radio stations as policies open up
- Continued progress of women’s rights, eventually catching up and surpassing Earth in some areas
- Historically, we see the rise of obesity and diet related health problems in the 1970s. Not here. If anything, they will be getting better
- Having said that, there will be the emergence of what we would consider many ‘modern’ foods. Wonka has a big decade
- Some gradual reduction of the size of the Armed Forces as costs of equipment increase, but nowhere near @
- Big changes in the way aspects social security is funded
- A lack of the circumstances that lead to the ascension of Margaret Thatcher means no PM Thatcher or what we’d recognise as Thatcherism. The Conservatives will need to find new strategies and reappraise their philosophy to take on Labour, but also to address a resurgence of the Liberals. Politically, Britain will have a genuine three way split
- Another @ issue was Europe, which won’t raise its head here. There won’t be an EEC emerging with France’s interesting decade to come, but there will be some trade related changes on the Continent. Britain, though, treads a different path
- Without twin oil shocks, it will be a more prosperous time. A lot more colour in many different ways
- Whilst a lot of oil wealth will go into various funds for the future, enough will spill over to create some interesting effects of affluence
- Supersonic air travel will begin to become more and more prevalent
- Whilst a Channel Tunnel will be thought to still be a non-starter, there will be talk of an underwater railway…
- High speed rail will branch out from the larger lines, but many of the smaller rural lines will still have more conventional services
- 1960s decisions to increase wizardly education result in more coming through and a widening use of magic and magitech
- The rise of suburbia
- African colonies that were given self government in the 1960s will now move to bona fide independence
- Increasing environmentalism
- An early 1970s fantasy boom
- Culturally, there will be a renewed folk revival in more than just music with some interesting consequences
- No decimalisation or metrication
- On nuclear matters, the advent of fusion power will see changes in this decade
- Underwater exploration…the Sea Race?
There is an obvious change in the form of the imminent Channel Tunnel (showing how quickly change occurs even if the process leading up to it is drawn out) and some other areas where there is quite different development:
Economy: Britain is sitting on much better fundamentals and will continue to see quite decent growth. It will likely stay a solid 5th in GDP behind the USA, USSR, Germany and Japan, but with a strong upward trend in GDP/capita, exports and general trade. As oil prices go up steadily, a Britain with the lion’s share of the North Sea will be on a good wicket. Inflation isn’t a major problem on the eastern side of the Atlantic as of 1972 and unemployment is still much, much lower than @
Industry: Perhaps the biggest change. The old heavy standbys of coal, steel, ships, arms, machine tools, engineering, chemicals and rail and the medium aerospace, and automotive and light industries of textiles, food processing, plastics and consumer goods still play a considerable collective part in the British economy, rather than the drift to services and particularly finance. That has an impact on the relative health of certain areas and their communities
Resources and Energy: Net exporter of coal, oil and gas plus the rising percentage of nuclear (incl fusion) means quite a few things. Cheaper petrol for motorists and lower transport costs, in addition to steadily low power bills/costs for industry
Defence: No pull out from East of Suez is on the cards, so there is increasing distance from @ in very noticeable ways. There are moves for gradual reductions in active strength in some areas and even the first reduction in divisional strength for 20 years. This is now very much a missile age, but not in the Sandys sense, so we also see a full range of 4th Gen British military aircraft
Politics: Both Labour and the Conservatives have strong leaders who can work with the other side. No sense of the country being ungovernable or trade unions being out of control, due to different laws and history, as well as Stanley Barton having pushed the Far Left out since he became Leader in 1956. Barton has now served longer than Attlee and, as the first and only Labour PM, has a lot of internal clout that he most certainly uses. The Liberals are making a run for a genuine alternative at the top
Sport: Different performances upcoming at the Olympics, a very different decade for cricket and a few ‘new’ sports to emerge on the international stage
Science and Technology: A rather earlier start to the computer and Internet age will have big consequences…
Culture: Some liberalisation in some areas, such as female rights, but not others, such as capital punishment and social morals. Interested to get some more ideas and opinions on potential cultural developments
Misc:
- Definitely no Northern Ireland or Europe issues
- The ongoing Empire gets more complex
- British cost of living went up by 190% in 70-79, but here will be a more manageable 25-30%
- What Arthur Marwick termed as the ‘cultural revolution’ of 58-74…isn’t
- Many of the seeds sown in the 1950s and 60s begin to bear fruit
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simon darkshade
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Post by simon darkshade on Jun 20, 2023 16:56:16 GMT
The above post is now complete and ‘open’ for comment.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jun 20, 2023 17:12:25 GMT
- Britain will be overtaken by Japan economically, but won’t be the sick man of Europe Has Germany already done this ore will the be able to do it. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jun 20, 2023 21:36:49 GMT
Initial thoughts. a) The corresponding element to no bolshie unions is that the crap mis-management problems Britain suffered - and still does OTL - are also resolved. Coupled with keeping the finance sector under control and avoiding the Thatcherite reversion to the liassez faire mythology you would definitely see a much stronger British performance even with the more autocratic social attitudes. The very heavy military burden will be an issue as probably also the continuation of conscription and the social and economic problems it causes.
b) Your talking now about a number of African states moving towards independence but in the past suggested that would be in name only and Britain would still maintain a large measure of control. Is this changing?
c) Good to see that environmentalism is going to be taken more seriously but the obvious issue will be global warming as, despite the larger size of DE the basic science still applies and demographic and industrial levels are also markedly higher than OTL. That continuation of low energy prices is going to mean its going to emerge as an issue as early as OTL, with the 1st clear signs being reported in the 70's or even faster. Question would be would the big producers still be able to cover up as much as OTL?
d) Given that the space race has been on for about a century plus hints of something very odd coming up shortly that could have some dramatic effects.
e) A bit confused by this bit "Barton has now served longer than Attlee and, as the first and only Labour PM". That implies that Attlee didn't serve as PM, or at least not as a Labour PM and presumably no MacDonald either?
f) While you have made mention of it elsewhere your got no mention of the industrial revolution that was ongoing in this period OTL with a lot of electronic advances. Hopefully Britain is well represented here.
g) In answer to Lordroel's point Germany is markedly larger here than OTL Germany, even without the partition IIRC as it still holds some of the lands OTL Germany lost in 1945 so not surprising that its overtaken the UK in overall industrial output. I am wondering how well the Japanese economic miracle would go in DE given the stronger performance in the older economic centres as its less likely to become as big a challenge as OTL.
Steve
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