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Post by simon darkshade on Nov 15, 2022 15:45:31 GMT
Looking ahead to the 1970s, Israel has a distinct qualitative edge over the Arab Union, but is substantively outnumbered quantitatively.
A.) Fighters As of 1971, the Royal Israeli Air Force fields 600 frontline fighters (200 Phantoms, 150 English Electric Lightnings, 100 de Havilland Tornados, 100 Hawker-Siddeley Merlins and 50 Avro Arrows) compared to the Arab Union of Syria, Arabia, Iraq and Jordan which has 1809 (562 Hawker Hunters, 403 Fairey Deltas, 298 de Havilland Spectres, 230 Supermarine Swifts, 196 Gloster Javelins and 150 Dassault Mirage IIIs).
The RIAF is nominally outnumbered 3:1, but it’s individual fighter types are more modern and superior at this point, in addition to their edge in radar, training and missiles. Additionally, they have 150 Hunters and 100 Deltas in service with their reserve squadrons, which gives a useful adjunct force.
The issue is Israel’s size, which puts its major air bases within range of enemy aircraft and missiles. The logic to mobilise and preemptively strike a foe is similar to @, even without the same background of conflict.
B.) Strike Here, the RIAF advantage is quite clear cut. They have 100 F-111s and 50 TSR-2s, backed up by 150 Canberras in reserve, against a collective Arab force of 207 Canberras. Neither the USA or France has offered them more sophisticated bombers or strike planes and the purchase of Soviet bombers is only open to its satellites. Theoretically, if an Arab Union state tried to buy old Tu-16s, for example, they would face very strong diplomatic pressure to reconsider from the U.S. and Britain.
Thus, they are still looking…
The RIAF is looking to acquire another 100 strike bombers, which would likely be the F-111 or FB-111
It is notable that it is unlikely that the RIAF would acquire an attack fighter like the A-10 or the Gloster Lion as they have a preference for multirole aircraft.
C.) Tanks The Arab armies collectively field ~3600 Centurions to 1600 active Israeli Chieftains + 2400 reserve Chieftains; Israeli Centurions are being converted into other vehicles and/or their turrets used for border fortifications in the Golan etc.
At this time, the advantage is very clearly towards the Israeli Army even if just based on regular service numbers.
D.) Unknown Factor: Egypt Egypt isn’t as widely associated with the Arab Union due to a more distinct national character, but also due to 1956 and a non-Pan Arab government at this time. They can muster 250 Deltas, 250 Hunters, 150 Spectres, 90 Swifts (740 tac fighters) and 100 Canberras in their own right, along with 900 tanks in their 15 regular divisions (6 Infantry, 5 Mechanised and 4 Armoured).
Whilst there is a certain degree of antipathy towards Israel for their role in 1956, the issue is that they don’t share a border as such, what with the Canal Zone.
They additionally face the issue of ~500 planes of RAF Middle East in Libya, Egypt, the Canal Zone, Israel, Jordan, Iraq and Cyprus; 150 Commonwealth aircraft supporting the former; multiple RN and CW carrier groups in the Med; an openly nuclear Israel in an openly nuclear Commonwealth; and a quite vigorous British government. As said a few years ago, this is even before counting the Americans.
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Post by simon darkshade on May 7, 2023 11:36:49 GMT
In the spirit of recent events, a bit on the 1953 Coronation of Queen Elizabeth II:
- In March, HMY Britannia is launched amid great ceremony - Festivities and celebrations begin in mid May, with a series of grand receptions and State Banquets - The Queen and Prince Philip conducted a Royal Review of the Army at Aldershot, reviewing 250,000 troops on May 26th - An Empire Service of Youth takes place on May 28th - Saturday May 29th sees the opening of a Coronation Fair in Hyde Park, reminiscent of the festivities that greeted the coronation of Queen Victoria - On June 1st, the the Festival of Empire opens at the Crystal Palace as part of the Coronation festivities. The day is a public bank holiday - Tuesday June 2: Coronation Day. Coronation of Queen Elizabeth II at Westminster Abbey in London in front of a crowd of 10,000. - The procession from Buckingham Palace to the Abbey is watched by over 5 million Londoners and a televisual audience of 100 million and consists of over 25,000 British, Commonwealth and Imperial military personnel, with a further 100,000 troops lining the streets along the 5 mile route along with 50,000 policemen - It includes mounted units from across the Empire, including Arab camelry and the Imperial Camel Corps, Egyptian Mamelukes, the Bengal Lancers - After the return of the procession to Buckingham Palace, there is a celebratory fly over by RFC dragons, other flying creatures and helicopters, 1000 RAF and RN jets and Royal Space Force spaceplanes. It sees the first public flights of the English Electric Lightning and de Havilland Vengeance, as well as a full squadron of 24 Avro Vulcans - News arrives on the morning that Edmund Hillary and Tenzing Norgay have been the first to successfully ascend Mount Everest, adding to the national and Imperial celebration - The day concludes with the traditional Royal Coronation Banquet in Westminster Hall street parties across Britain and the Empire and magnificent Royal Fireworks in the evening - On June 6th, there is a great military parade through London - June 12: Opening of the Royal Air Show, a special international event to mark the Coronation of Queen Elizabeth II, at Farnborough - June 15: Queen Elizabeth II inspects the vast Coronation Fleet Review at Spithead aboard the royal yacht Britannia, consisting of over 600 ships of the Royal and Commonwealth Navies - 29 battleships, 35 aircraft carriers, 79 cruisers, 125 destroyers, 87 frigates, 108 corvettes, 56 submarines and 93 minesweepers - and representative ships from over two dozen foreign nations, including the battleships Sovetsky Soyuz from the USSR, USS Montana from the United States and Charlemagne from France. Over 2500 aircraft of the Fleet Air Arm and Royal Naval Air Service fly over the fleet in formation
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on May 7, 2023 11:54:40 GMT
- June 15: Queen Elizabeth II inspects the vast Coronation Fleet Review at Spithead aboard the royal yacht Britannia, consisting of over 600 ships of the Royal and Commonwealth Navies - 29 battleships, 35 aircraft carriers, 79 cruisers, 125 destroyers, 87 frigates, 108 corvettes, 56 submarines and 93 minesweepers - and representative ships from over two dozen foreign nations, including the battleships Sovetsky Soyuz from the USSR, USS Montana from the United States and Charlemagne from France. Over 2500 aircraft of the Fleet Air Arm and Royal Naval Air Service fly over the fleet in formation Would have love to see the DE Coronation Fleet Review, would have been spectacular.
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Post by simon darkshade on May 7, 2023 13:22:24 GMT
It, like the other features of the Coronation, was designed to be spectacular and grand in scale. For a Britain coming out of war and reconstruction (even if nowhere near the same depths reached in @), this presented the first great state occasion to really go out and put on a slow to be proud of.
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Post by simon darkshade on May 8, 2023 13:11:52 GMT
As a related note, with the absence of an English Civil War and the interregnum of the Commonwealth, the Crown Jewels were not destroyed or remade as in @. Additionally, the Three Brothers and Mirror of Great Britain were not pawned in Amsterdam under Charles I, but remain as parts of the collection. There are several pieces that stretch back to the days of Richard the Lionheart and Alfred the Great and a special few from the days of Arthur.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on May 8, 2023 13:41:49 GMT
As a related note, with the absence of an English Civil War and the interregnum of the Commonwealth, the Crown Jewels were not destroyed or remade as in @. Additionally, the Three Brothers and Mirror of Great Britain were not pawned in Amsterdam under Charles I, but remain as parts of the collection. There are several pieces that stretch back to the days of Richard the Lionheart and Alfred the Great and a special few from the days of Arthur. The sword of the lake among them.
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Post by simon darkshade on May 9, 2023 2:21:03 GMT
Excalibur is separate from the Crown Jewels as a Treasure of the Realm. It doesn’t just have a ceremonial role.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on May 9, 2023 11:57:37 GMT
As a related note, with the absence of an English Civil War and the interregnum of the Commonwealth, the Crown Jewels were not destroyed or remade as in @. Additionally, the Three Brothers and Mirror of Great Britain were not pawned in Amsterdam under Charles I, but remain as parts of the collection. There are several pieces that stretch back to the days of Richard the Lionheart and Alfred the Great and a special few from the days of Arthur.
Ouch that's a BIG butterfly. How was Charles I's determination to maintain absolute power blocked or was he less of a total idiot in DE TL? Without the check on the monarchy coming from the success in defeating it in the 1640's England especially would be a lot weaker for a while.
Did we still have James II being deposed by William III and possibly that had the primary role in reducing royal power and hence enabling the development of a stronger society and country?
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Post by simon darkshade on May 9, 2023 12:31:59 GMT
"Succeeding James to the throne was King Charles I (reigned 1625-1650), whose rule would be dominated by the Thirty Years' War on the Continent. He encountered many struggles with Parliament regarding his religious policies, his marriage to a Roman Catholic queen and the questions of absolute monarchy and the divine right of kings. These were subsumed by the wider conflict against the Holy Roman Empire, Austria and Spain in the Thirty Years' War, where England's forces were vital to the Protestant cause. Fighting took place not only in Europe and the Americas, but in Africa and Asia in what would be the model for many wars to come. Charles I's nephew, Prince Rupert of the Rhine, was one of the great Protestant field commanders of the war, his successes bettered only by the English general Sir Oliver Cromwell and King Gustavus Adolphus of Sweden.
Rebellions in Ireland and Scotland were suppressed, but Charles was forced to bow to the will of Parliament in order to fund the campaigns and dismissed several key advisers. The Grand Settlement of 1642 instituted a system of mixed government, preventing the growing spectre of open conflict between the Royalist and Parliamentarian parties of the realm, but proving to be only a temporary compromise. King Charles was stricken by terrible apoplexy and slowly recovered over the next three years, constraining the direct exercise of royal authority. The final years of his reign saw his earlier ardour tempered by a preference for consensus, but he is not regarded as one of England's finer kings.
Charles II (1650-1685) was far more successful and popular, winning renown as the 'Merry Monarch' as the profile of Puritanism faded. At home, the Great Plague and the Great Fire of London caused substantial damage and disruption. Two political parties, the Tories and Whigs, began to emerge at this point as the nation continued to transition to a mixed constitutional monarchy. England gained control over Dunkirk and Tangiers through careful diplomacy in the early part of his reign and extended its colonial empire in the Americas and Asia, particularly through the expanded influence of the East India Company. The Anglo-Dutch Wars that raged through much of the second half of the 17th century saw England's naval superiority seriously threatened, but ultimate victory was gained by 1680 in the Fourth Anglo-Dutch War after many defeats. Piracy was a particular scourge in the Caribbean during the Caroline period and the Royal Navy established several permanent squadrons in foreign waters as a consequence. The Scientific, Commercial and Arcane Revolutions all reached their high points under Charles II and England supplanted the Netherlands as the wealthiest power in Europe by 1685.
The death of Charles without a male heir saw the throne pass to his brother James, Duke of York. He faced immediate rebellions in Scotland and Ireland from Protestant aristocrats who feared the prospect of a Catholic heir and his Declaration of Indulgence was met with substantial opposition from the Church of England. His moves towards religious toleration were seen as thinly disguised attempts to promote Catholicism. In what was known as the Glorious Revolution of 1688, a group of Protestant nobles invited William of Orange, son-in-law of James II, to invade and take the throne. In a brief campaign, James was routed and forced to flee to the sanctuary of the court of King Louis XIV of France. Parliament passed the Bill of Rights the next year, declaring that James had abandoned his throne and prohibiting any Roman Catholic from ascending to the throne of England or marrying an English monarch. It also set out a number of certain fundamental rights and liberties of Englishmen that remain at the heart of the unwritten Constitution and English law."
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Post by simon darkshade on May 9, 2023 12:39:22 GMT
So for the first issue, it is a mixture of better advice (particularly from his court wizard) and the temporary Band-Aid of The Great Settlement, along with the greater shadow of a foreign war focusing national attention outwards.
Absolutely spot on on the second issue.
Thus, the era of the cavalier in the times of Charles I and II is looked back upon very fondly as the foundation of a greater golden age. Whilst the cropheads get part of their aims, there is far less of a cost to the Three Kingdoms, society, culture and more.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on May 9, 2023 14:34:55 GMT
"Succeeding James to the throne was King Charles I (reigned 1625-1650), whose rule would be dominated by the Thirty Years' War on the Continent. He encountered many struggles with Parliament regarding his religious policies, his marriage to a Roman Catholic queen and the questions of absolute monarchy and the divine right of kings. These were subsumed by the wider conflict against the Holy Roman Empire, Austria and Spain in the Thirty Years' War, where England's forces were vital to the Protestant cause. Fighting took place not only in Europe and the Americas, but in Africa and Asia in what would be the model for many wars to come. Charles I's nephew, Prince Rupert of the Rhine, was one of the great Protestant field commanders of the war, his successes bettered only by the English general Sir Oliver Cromwell and King Gustavus Adolphus of Sweden. Rebellions in Ireland and Scotland were suppressed, but Charles was forced to bow to the will of Parliament in order to fund the campaigns and dismissed several key advisers. The Grand Settlement of 1642 instituted a system of mixed government, preventing the growing spectre of open conflict between the Royalist and Parliamentarian parties of the realm, but proving to be only a temporary compromise. King Charles was stricken by terrible apoplexy and slowly recovered over the next three years, constraining the direct exercise of royal authority. The final years of his reign saw his earlier ardour tempered by a preference for consensus, but he is not regarded as one of England's finer kings. Charles II (1650-1685) was far more successful and popular, winning renown as the 'Merry Monarch' as the profile of Puritanism faded. At home, the Great Plague and the Great Fire of London caused substantial damage and disruption. Two political parties, the Tories and Whigs, began to emerge at this point as the nation continued to transition to a mixed constitutional monarchy. England gained control over Dunkirk and Tangiers through careful diplomacy in the early part of his reign and extended its colonial empire in the Americas and Asia, particularly through the expanded influence of the East India Company. The Anglo-Dutch Wars that raged through much of the second half of the 17th century saw England's naval superiority seriously threatened, but ultimate victory was gained by 1680 in the Fourth Anglo-Dutch War after many defeats. Piracy was a particular scourge in the Caribbean during the Caroline period and the Royal Navy established several permanent squadrons in foreign waters as a consequence. The Scientific, Commercial and Arcane Revolutions all reached their high points under Charles II and England supplanted the Netherlands as the wealthiest power in Europe by 1685. The death of Charles without a male heir saw the throne pass to his brother James, Duke of York. He faced immediate rebellions in Scotland and Ireland from Protestant aristocrats who feared the prospect of a Catholic heir and his Declaration of Indulgence was met with substantial opposition from the Church of England. His moves towards religious toleration were seen as thinly disguised attempts to promote Catholicism. In what was known as the Glorious Revolution of 1688, a group of Protestant nobles invited William of Orange, son-in-law of James II, to invade and take the throne. In a brief campaign, James was routed and forced to flee to the sanctuary of the court of King Louis XIV of France. Parliament passed the Bill of Rights the next year, declaring that James had abandoned his throne and prohibiting any Roman Catholic from ascending to the throne of England or marrying an English monarch. It also set out a number of certain fundamental rights and liberties of Englishmen that remain at the heart of the unwritten Constitution and English law."
So James was less of an absolute idiot and then was sick for a while so we avoided the bloodshed he caused OTL and the main reforms came a generation later. Its quite possible if Charles II was less rash than he was OTL and saw the need for a more responsible government.
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Post by simon darkshade on May 9, 2023 15:33:32 GMT
"Succeeding James to the throne was King Charles I (reigned 1625-1650), whose rule would be dominated by the Thirty Years' War on the Continent. He encountered many struggles with Parliament regarding his religious policies, his marriage to a Roman Catholic queen and the questions of absolute monarchy and the divine right of kings. These were subsumed by the wider conflict against the Holy Roman Empire, Austria and Spain in the Thirty Years' War, where England's forces were vital to the Protestant cause. Fighting took place not only in Europe and the Americas, but in Africa and Asia in what would be the model for many wars to come. Charles I's nephew, Prince Rupert of the Rhine, was one of the great Protestant field commanders of the war, his successes bettered only by the English general Sir Oliver Cromwell and King Gustavus Adolphus of Sweden. Rebellions in Ireland and Scotland were suppressed, but Charles was forced to bow to the will of Parliament in order to fund the campaigns and dismissed several key advisers. The Grand Settlement of 1642 instituted a system of mixed government, preventing the growing spectre of open conflict between the Royalist and Parliamentarian parties of the realm, but proving to be only a temporary compromise. King Charles was stricken by terrible apoplexy and slowly recovered over the next three years, constraining the direct exercise of royal authority. The final years of his reign saw his earlier ardour tempered by a preference for consensus, but he is not regarded as one of England's finer kings. Charles II (1650-1685) was far more successful and popular, winning renown as the 'Merry Monarch' as the profile of Puritanism faded. At home, the Great Plague and the Great Fire of London caused substantial damage and disruption. Two political parties, the Tories and Whigs, began to emerge at this point as the nation continued to transition to a mixed constitutional monarchy. England gained control over Dunkirk and Tangiers through careful diplomacy in the early part of his reign and extended its colonial empire in the Americas and Asia, particularly through the expanded influence of the East India Company. The Anglo-Dutch Wars that raged through much of the second half of the 17th century saw England's naval superiority seriously threatened, but ultimate victory was gained by 1680 in the Fourth Anglo-Dutch War after many defeats. Piracy was a particular scourge in the Caribbean during the Caroline period and the Royal Navy established several permanent squadrons in foreign waters as a consequence. The Scientific, Commercial and Arcane Revolutions all reached their high points under Charles II and England supplanted the Netherlands as the wealthiest power in Europe by 1685. The death of Charles without a male heir saw the throne pass to his brother James, Duke of York. He faced immediate rebellions in Scotland and Ireland from Protestant aristocrats who feared the prospect of a Catholic heir and his Declaration of Indulgence was met with substantial opposition from the Church of England. His moves towards religious toleration were seen as thinly disguised attempts to promote Catholicism. In what was known as the Glorious Revolution of 1688, a group of Protestant nobles invited William of Orange, son-in-law of James II, to invade and take the throne. In a brief campaign, James was routed and forced to flee to the sanctuary of the court of King Louis XIV of France. Parliament passed the Bill of Rights the next year, declaring that James had abandoned his throne and prohibiting any Roman Catholic from ascending to the throne of England or marrying an English monarch. It also set out a number of certain fundamental rights and liberties of Englishmen that remain at the heart of the unwritten Constitution and English law."
So James was less of an absolute idiot and then was sick for a while so we avoided the bloodshed he caused OTL and the main reforms came a generation later.
Its quite possible if Charles II was less rash than he was OTL and saw the need for a more responsible government.
1.) Yes, subbing Charles I for James. Reform was a gradual process of easing forward one step at a time, rather than all in a rush. Given the nature of Dark Earth, there is something more to the idea of kingship than @ in the mystical sense. 2.) The extra time on the throne gave him somewhat more maturity, in addition to having some strong and wise advisors. The latter is a bit of a theme in DE, affecting Henry VIII, Charles I and Charles II.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on May 9, 2023 15:39:26 GMT
"Succeeding James to the throne was King Charles I (reigned 1625-1650), whose rule would be dominated by the Thirty Years' War on the Continent. He encountered many struggles with Parliament regarding his religious policies, his marriage to a Roman Catholic queen and the questions of absolute monarchy and the divine right of kings. These were subsumed by the wider conflict against the Holy Roman Empire, Austria and Spain in the Thirty Years' War, where England's forces were vital to the Protestant cause. Fighting took place not only in Europe and the Americas, but in Africa and Asia in what would be the model for many wars to come. Charles I's nephew, Prince Rupert of the Rhine, was one of the great Protestant field commanders of the war, his successes bettered only by the English general Sir Oliver Cromwell and King Gustavus Adolphus of Sweden. Rebellions in Ireland and Scotland were suppressed, but Charles was forced to bow to the will of Parliament in order to fund the campaigns and dismissed several key advisers. The Grand Settlement of 1642 instituted a system of mixed government, preventing the growing spectre of open conflict between the Royalist and Parliamentarian parties of the realm, but proving to be only a temporary compromise. King Charles was stricken by terrible apoplexy and slowly recovered over the next three years, constraining the direct exercise of royal authority. The final years of his reign saw his earlier ardour tempered by a preference for consensus, but he is not regarded as one of England's finer kings. So what happen with Prince Rupert of the Rhine, with no English Civil War.
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Post by simon darkshade on May 9, 2023 15:52:39 GMT
That is literally written in the first paragraph of what you just quoted.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on May 9, 2023 16:14:56 GMT
That is literally written in the first paragraph of what you just quoted. Please tell me i did not do it again. My apologies that you have to deal with me and my inability to read.
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