oscssw
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Post by oscssw on Jul 3, 2020 14:38:15 GMT
Even if the Nimitz has 10 Lockheed S-3A Vikings onboard, without here modern escorts who for some reason did not join here in the past, she might be a target for Japanese submarines armed with the Type 93 Long Lance torpedo. Not sure if the Japanese subs had the long lance but they could well be a threat while the ship is alone. Doubt a single torpedo would seriously damage the ship but a multiple strike could cause a fair amount of damage and its not going to be something that would be easy to repair in 1941/42. There were a number in the region of Pearl, I think to try and hit any ships sortieing out after the attack.
The Long Lance was the type 93. IJN subs used the Type 95. It was a 21 inch diameter (Type 93 was 24 inch diameter). It had a shorter range at 13,000, type 93 24,000 yds, at max speed setting.
The Mod 2 had a 1200 lb warhead. Today's USN Mk48 ADCAP has a 650 Lb, Warhead.
I'd say 1,200 LB warhead is going to do damage even to a CVN. Probably not sink one and depending on where it hit, maybe not even a "Mission Kill" but not to be taken lightly.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 3, 2020 14:45:00 GMT
Not sure if the Japanese subs had the long lance but they could well be a threat while the ship is alone. Doubt a single torpedo would seriously damage the ship but a multiple strike could cause a fair amount of damage and its not going to be something that would be easy to repair in 1941/42. There were a number in the region of Pearl, I think to try and hit any ships sortieing out after the attack.
The Long Lance was the type 93. IJN subs used the Type 95. A my mistake. |
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oscssw
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Post by oscssw on Jul 3, 2020 18:43:57 GMT
The Long Lance was the type 93. IJN subs used the Type 95. A my mistake.
Not to worry. I had to look up the difference myself. The 24 inch diameter of the Type 93 was just too big for WWII submarine torpedo tubes. The 1,200 lb warhead was way bigger than anyone else used. Quite honestly, even with radar, the first allied ships at Guadalcanal did not have a chance. The IJN's night fighting doctrine dates back to the Sino-Japanese War of 1894-1895 and the Russo-Japanese War of 1904-1905. It was absolutely brilliant. The Type 93 was the perfect weapon for that doctrine.
Using pure oxygen instead of compressed air also allowed the torpedo to travel faster, farther and eliminated the bubble trail. Like everything else about this torpedo, its warhead was also outsized—1,200 pounds—and its maximum range was an incredible 22,000 yards (11 nautical miles) at a speed of 49 knots, or 40,000 yards at 36 knots. The U.S. Navy’s Mark 14 torpedo, in comparison, carried a warhead of only 825 pounds and had a range of 6,000 yards at 45 knots or 15,000 yards at 26 knots.
One last point the Type 93 was very reliable. It went where it was aimed, maintained set depth and it exploded almost every time. The US Mk13/14/15 did not go where aimed, ran deeper than set and seldom exploded. One thing they were good for was a circular run which made their own ship the target.
Sorry to get this far off subject.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 3, 2020 18:50:24 GMT
Sorry to get this far off subject.
Not at all, i doubt there are many things that can sink the Nimitz, with here air group and here RIM-7 Sea Sparrows and PHALANX CIWS (Close-In Weapons System) Gatling guns it will be hard for any Japanese aircraft to approach here. A Japanese surface ship might come close, if not detected by the Nimitz radars and then only if the Nimitz air group does not sink them first. |
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oscssw
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Post by oscssw on Jul 3, 2020 21:12:24 GMT
Sorry to get this far off subject.
Not at all, i doubt there are many things that can sink the Nimitz, with here air group and here RIM-7 Sea Sparrows and PHALANX CIWS (Close-In Weapons System) Gatling guns it will be hard for any Japanese aircraft to approach here. A Japanese surface ship might come close, if not detected by the Nimitz radars and then only if the Nimitz air group does not sink them first.  |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 4, 2020 8:42:49 GMT
So with no Pear Harbor attack, no firing of admiral ” Husband Kimmel and thus no admiral Nimitz taking over as Commander in Chief, U.S. Pacific Fleet and Commander in Chief, Pacific Ocean Areas.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jul 4, 2020 12:31:03 GMT
So with no Pear Harbor attack, no firing of admiral ” Husband Kimmel and thus no admiral Nimitz taking over as Commander in Chief, U.S. Pacific Fleet and Commander in Chief, Pacific Ocean Areas.
That might not as the up-timers can inform the down-timers of the disaster that would have happened without their appearance so Kimmel possibly might still get sacked. However it does raise an interesting point. IIRC the politician rescued from his attacked boat is angry on seeing the Nimitz because: a) I think he's an isolationist and he's dubious about how FDR has secretly constructed such massive ships - which is his original idea - and
b) He's also outraged at the breach of tradition with a ship named after a currently serving naval officer.
Of course neither are actually occurring as the ship is from a future. However its going to have impacts that such an important ship is named after a current officer and also other details that can [and likely will] be transmitted to the down-timers about events in the 'future'. Could see some careers' both in the military and elsewhere changed.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 4, 2020 12:34:29 GMT
So with no Pear Harbor attack, no firing of admiral ” Husband Kimmel and thus no admiral Nimitz taking over as Commander in Chief, U.S. Pacific Fleet and Commander in Chief, Pacific Ocean Areas. That might not as the up-timers can inform the down-timers of the disaster that would have happened without their appearance so Kimmel possibly might still get sacked. However it does raise an interesting point. IIRC the politician rescued from his attacked boat is angry on seeing the Nimitz because: a) I think he's an isolationist and he's dubious about how FDR has secretly constructed such massive ships - which is his original idea - and
b) He's also outraged at the breach of tradition with a ship named after a currently serving naval officer. Of course neither are actually occurring as the ship is from a future. However its going to have impacts that such an important ship is named after a current officer and also other details that can [and likely will] be transmitted to the down-timers about events in the 'future'. Could see some careers' both in the military and elsewhere changed.
So Kimmel gets sacked for something that did not happen, that is strange, but reading his Wikipedia article, there are some people who say that Kimmel had been ordered 10 days prior to the attack to initiate a "defensive deployment" of the fleet. Kimmel, thinking the main threat to the fleet was sabotage, kept much of the fleet in port and did not place the fleet on alert. When his intelligence unit lost track of Japan's aircraft carriers, he did not order long-range air or naval patrols to assess their positions. He had a poor working arrangement with his Army counterpart, General Short, who was charged with defending the fleet while in port. Could this be enough to sack him despite the USS Nimitz preventing the Pearl Harbor attack. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jul 4, 2020 12:37:31 GMT
That might not as the up-timers can inform the down-timers of the disaster that would have happened without their appearance so Kimmel possibly might still get sacked. However it does raise an interesting point. IIRC the politician rescued from his attacked boat is angry on seeing the Nimitz because: a) I think he's an isolationist and he's dubious about how FDR has secretly constructed such massive ships - which is his original idea - and
b) He's also outraged at the breach of tradition with a ship named after a currently serving naval officer. Of course neither are actually occurring as the ship is from a future. However its going to have impacts that such an important ship is named after a current officer and also other details that can [and likely will] be transmitted to the down-timers about events in the 'future'. Could see some careers' both in the military and elsewhere changed.
So Kimmel gets sacked for something that did not happen, that is strange, but reading his Wikipedia article, there are some people who say that Kimmel had been ordered 10 days prior to the attack to initiate a "defensive deployment" of the fleet. Kimmel, thinking the main threat to the fleet was sabotage, kept much of the fleet in port and did not place the fleet on alert. When his intelligence unit lost track of Japan's aircraft carriers, he did not order long-range air or naval patrols to assess their positions. He had a poor working arrangement with his Army counterpart, General Short, who was charged with defending the fleet while in port. Could this be enough to sack him despite the USS Nimitz preventing the Pearl Harbor attack.
Possibly. Its probably still unlikely he would be sacked for something that didn't actually happen in this TL but its possible.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 4, 2020 12:41:46 GMT
So Kimmel gets sacked for something that did not happen, that is strange, but reading his Wikipedia article, there are some people who say that Kimmel had been ordered 10 days prior to the attack to initiate a "defensive deployment" of the fleet. Kimmel, thinking the main threat to the fleet was sabotage, kept much of the fleet in port and did not place the fleet on alert. When his intelligence unit lost track of Japan's aircraft carriers, he did not order long-range air or naval patrols to assess their positions. He had a poor working arrangement with his Army counterpart, General Short, who was charged with defending the fleet while in port. Could this be enough to sack him despite the USS Nimitz preventing the Pearl Harbor attack. Possibly. Its probably still unlikely he would be sacked for something that didn't actually happen in this TL but its possible.
Also it is mentioned in the movie that United States Senator, Samuel Chapman could have become Franklin D. Roosevelt's running mate (and his potential successor) during his final re-election bid except for the fact that Chapman disappeared shortly before the fateful attack on Pearl Harbor on December 7, 1941. So i think this Senator will be for a war against Japan, he was a victim of it after all, but will be against a war against Germany, if he becomes VP in 1942 he would make sure that the US stays out of the war in Europe. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jul 4, 2020 13:08:32 GMT
Possibly. Its probably still unlikely he would be sacked for something that didn't actually happen in this TL but its possible.
Also it is mentioned in the movie that United States Senator, Samuel Chapman could have become Franklin D. Roosevelt's running mate (and his potential successor) during his final re-election bid except for the fact that Chapman disappeared shortly before the fateful attack on Pearl Harbor on December 7, 1941. So i think this Senator will be for a war against Japan, he was a victim of it after all, but will be against a war against Germany, if he becomes VP in 1942 he would make sure that the US stays out of the war in Europe.
Ah possibly I was remembering it wrongly as I thought that was the politician on the boat and he was somewhat hostile to FDR - hence the comments I made.
I can't see him becoming VP in 42 unless for some reason the current VP - was it Wallace? - was removed. Are you thinking of the next presidential election in 44? Either way I think its going to be too late to prevent a US dow on the European fascists, even if Hitler doesn't decide the issue as he did OTL.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 4, 2020 13:36:29 GMT
Also it is mentioned in the movie that United States Senator, Samuel Chapman could have become Franklin D. Roosevelt's running mate (and his potential successor) during his final re-election bid except for the fact that Chapman disappeared shortly before the fateful attack on Pearl Harbor on December 7, 1941. So i think this Senator will be for a war against Japan, he was a victim of it after all, but will be against a war against Germany, if he becomes VP in 1942 he would make sure that the US stays out of the war in Europe.
I can't see him becoming VP in 42 unless for some reason the current VP - was it Wallace? - was removed. Are you thinking of the next presidential election in 44? Either way I think its going to be too late to prevent a US dow on the European fascists, even if Hitler doesn't decide the issue as he did OTL.
A forgot about that, do not think Wallace is removed, unless the crew of the USS Nimitz have something on him, |
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archibald
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Post by archibald on Aug 9, 2020 13:44:52 GMT
Fascinating thread ! VF-41 Black Aces: Grumman F-14A Tomcats (12x). VF-84 Jolly Rogers: Grumman F-14A Tomcats (12x). 24 Tomcats. Each can carry (in an emergency) either 6*Phoenix or 4*Phoenix+2*Sparrow+2*Sidewinders. Second case has 192 AAMs, barely enough to wipeout the first wave of 183 Japanese aircraft. Note that A-7 Corsair II with 1*20 mm gun and Sidewinders have nothing to fear about Zeros !
If the Nimitz has nuclear weapons onboard I can see the crew nuking some strategic Japanese targets and hope for an "Hiroshima effect". They have enough nuclear weapons to turn Japan into a parking lot.
Once Japan done, send an A-6 intruder nuking Hitler Wolf Lair or Berlin. Once again, A-6 has nothing to fear from 1941 vintage Me-109s or FW-190s.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 9, 2020 13:49:08 GMT
Yep, this is a fascinating thread, to bad the Nimitz did not have its escorts with here as that would be a very powerful force to deal with. |
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gillan1220
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I've been depressed recently. Slow replies coming in the next few days.
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Post by gillan1220 on Sept 9, 2020 5:34:10 GMT
Just caught up with the thread. A great one indeed. While a USN modern day carrier may not change the war single-handedly, it will be a deadly blow to the Axis.
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