lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jun 29, 2020 15:21:17 GMT
Since the Brits, without the help of the Nimitz, produced operational jets by late '44 and the chief factor was the engine I doubt much could be done to speed that up. Know what was needed and actually producing it are two very different problems. As I understand it, and I could be very wrong, it was a matter of metallurgy and that can't be rushed. From what I remember in the Nav
metallurgy was not a science a CVA would have much use for so I doubt there would any real experts.
As far as using Kerosene based Jet fuels as available in WWII I don't see degraded performance as that big a factor. An F-14 operating at 50 power is still going to be orders of magnitude more deadly than the best piston engine fighter. I also see engine/aircraft life extended by not pushing the birds anywhere near their top performance. But in the end, they most likely need to cannibalize some F-14s to keep other flying until they can make spare and replacement part for them. |
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oscssw
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Post by oscssw on Jun 29, 2020 15:34:14 GMT
Since the Brits, without the help of the Nimitz, produced operational jets by late '44 and the chief factor was the engine I doubt much could be done to speed that up. Know what was needed and actually producing it are two very different problems. As I understand it, and I could be very wrong, it was a matter of metallurgy and that can't be rushed. From what I remember in the Nav
metallurgy was not a science a CVA would have much use for so I doubt there would any real experts.
As far as using Kerosene based Jet fuels as available in WWII I don't see degraded performance as that big a factor. An F-14 operating at 50 power is still going to be orders of magnitude more deadly than the best piston engine fighter. I also see engine/aircraft life extended by not pushing the birds anywhere near their top performance. But in the end, they most likely need to cannibalize some F-14s to keep other flying until they can make spare and replacement part for them. |
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ukron
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Post by ukron on Jun 29, 2020 15:38:46 GMT
Political speaking, if the whole japanese fleet is sunken in matters of some hours, it would be a huge blow to Japanese expansionism and maybe push some Axis nations to withdraw from the war.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jun 29, 2020 15:49:19 GMT
But in the end, they most likely need to cannibalize some F-14s to keep other flying until they can make spare and replacement part for them. So oscssw, i tried to make a list of what was onboard the Nimitz in 1980, quiet impressive, also found a good YouTube clip of the Nimitz in 1980. Carrier air wing, USS Nimitz, 1980During the 1980s, a carrier air wing normally consisted of nine squadrons of various aircraft: two F-14 fighter squadrons, one E-2C AEW squadron, one EA-6B electronic warfare squadron, one S-3 ASW squadron, one A-6 medium-attack squadron, two A-7 light-attack squadrons, and one helicopter squadron, for a total of approximately 90 aircraft. VF-41 Black Aces: Grumman F-14A Tomcats (12x). VF-84 Jolly Rogers: Grumman F-14A Tomcats (12x). VA-82 Marauders: Vought A-7E Corsair IIs (12x). VA-86 Sidewinders: Vought A-7E Corsair IIs (12x). VA-35 Black Panthers: Grumman A-6E and KA-6D Intruders (10 A-6Es and 4 KA-6Ds). VS-24 Scouts: Lockheed S-3A Vikings (10x). VAQ-134 Garudas: Grumman EA-6B Prowlers (4x). VAW-124 Bear Aces: Lockheed E-2C Hawkeyes (6x). VFP-63 Eyes of the Fleet: Vought RF-8G Crusaders (12x), not sure if she was onboard the Nimitz during the events of the movie.VRC-40 Rawhides: Grumman C-1A Trader CODs, and HS-9 Sea Griffins Sikorsky SH-3H Sea Kings. YouTube (USS NIMITZ CVN-68 1980 AIRCRAFT CARRIER & F-14 OPERATIONS & CAPABILITIES) |
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oscssw
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Post by oscssw on Jun 29, 2020 20:19:30 GMT
Concur. So conducting decisive strikes while spares, weapons and fuel are available seems to point to nuclear strikes agianst the most essential axis assets seems the wise move. So oscssw , I tried to make a list of what was onboard the Nimitz in 1980, quiet impressive, also found a good YouTube clip of the Nimitz in 1980. Carrier air wing, USS Nimitz, 1980During the 1980s, a carrier air wing normally consisted of nine squadrons of various aircraft: two F-14 fighter squadrons, one E-2C AEW squadron, one EA-6B electronic warfare squadron, one S-3 ASW squadron, one A-6 medium-attack squadron, two A-7 light-attack squadrons, and one helicopter squadron, for a total of approximately 90 aircraft. VF-41 Black Aces: Grumman F-14A Tomcats (12x). VF-84 Jolly Rogers: Grumman F-14A Tomcats (12x). VA-82 Marauders: Vought A-7E Corsair IIs (12x). VA-86 Sidewinders: Vought A-7E Corsair IIs (12x). VA-35 Black Panthers: Grumman A-6E and KA-6D Intruders (10 A-6Es and 4 KA-6Ds). VS-24 Scouts: Lockheed S-3A Vikings (10x). VAQ-134 Garudas: Grumman EA-6B Prowlers (4x). VAW-124 Bear Aces: Lockheed E-2C Hawkeyes (6x). VFP-63 Eyes of the Fleet: Vought RF-8G Crusaders (12x), not sure if she was onboard the Nimitz during the events of the movie.VRC-40 Rawhides: Grumman C-1A Trader CODs, and HS-9 Sea Griffins Sikorsky SH-3H Sea Kings. YouTube (USS NIMITZ CVN-68 1980 AIRCRAFT CARRIER & F-14 OPERATIONS & CAPABILITIES)
Sounds about right for a late Cold War CAW with the exception of the VFP-63 Eyes of the Fleet: Vought RF-8G Crusaders (12x). As I remember it, and I could be wrong, there was usually just a Det, normally 4 and occasionally 6 RF8-Gs.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jun 30, 2020 2:53:51 GMT
So oscssw , I tried to make a list of what was onboard the Nimitz in 1980, quiet impressive, also found a good YouTube clip of the Nimitz in 1980. Carrier air wing, USS Nimitz, 1980During the 1980s, a carrier air wing normally consisted of nine squadrons of various aircraft: two F-14 fighter squadrons, one E-2C AEW squadron, one EA-6B electronic warfare squadron, one S-3 ASW squadron, one A-6 medium-attack squadron, two A-7 light-attack squadrons, and one helicopter squadron, for a total of approximately 90 aircraft. VF-41 Black Aces: Grumman F-14A Tomcats (12x). VF-84 Jolly Rogers: Grumman F-14A Tomcats (12x). VA-82 Marauders: Vought A-7E Corsair IIs (12x). VA-86 Sidewinders: Vought A-7E Corsair IIs (12x). VA-35 Black Panthers: Grumman A-6E and KA-6D Intruders (10 A-6Es and 4 KA-6Ds). VS-24 Scouts: Lockheed S-3A Vikings (10x). VAQ-134 Garudas: Grumman EA-6B Prowlers (4x). VAW-124 Bear Aces: Lockheed E-2C Hawkeyes (6x). VFP-63 Eyes of the Fleet: Vought RF-8G Crusaders (12x), not sure if she was onboard the Nimitz during the events of the movie.VRC-40 Rawhides: Grumman C-1A Trader CODs, and HS-9 Sea Griffins Sikorsky SH-3H Sea Kings. YouTube (USS NIMITZ CVN-68 1980 AIRCRAFT CARRIER & F-14 OPERATIONS & CAPABILITIES)
Sounds about right for a late Cold War CAW with the exception of the VFP-63 Eyes of the Fleet: Vought RF-8G Crusaders (12x). As I remember it, and I could be wrong, there was usually just a Det, normally 4 and occasionally 6 RF8-Gs.
Checking Wikipedia i got this image which tells me: A U.S. Navy Vought RF-8G Crusader from Photographic Reconnaissance Squadron VFP-63 Det.5 "Eyes of the Fleet" in flight. VFP-63 Det.5 was assigned to Carrier Air Wing 8 (CVW-8) aboard the aircraft carrier USS Nimitz (CVN-68) for a deployment to the Mediterranean Sea and the Indian Ocean from 10 September 1979 to 26 May 1980. As the movie was released in August 1st 1980, lets make that the date the Nimitz disappears, that means the VFP-63 Eyes of the Fleet was not onboard the Nimitz at that time. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jul 1, 2020 10:30:04 GMT
Political speaking, if the whole japanese fleet is sunken in matters of some hours, it would be a huge blow to Japanese expansionism and maybe push some Axis nations to withdraw from the war.
I suspect not too likely initially as I doubt too much was expected from Japan until she made her massive conquests, a fair number of which could well not occur now. Plus Germany looks very strong in Europe with Russia seeming on the verge of collapse. With Japan having failed so catastrophically one factor is Hitler may have the sense not to declare war on the US, which could delay it entering the conflict against the European axis. However given how confident he was feeling at the time I suspect he would still declare war.
Of course once nukes start landing this could change drastically. I could see a lot of the minor Axis allies, provided their offered some outlet that doesn't involve either Nazi [in the short term] or Soviet occupation. Of course it might mean accepting the continuation of some unpleasant regimes so this would be an important political decision.
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ukron
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Post by ukron on Jul 1, 2020 13:51:42 GMT
Political speaking, if the whole japanese fleet is sunken in matters of some hours, it would be a huge blow to Japanese expansionism and maybe push some Axis nations to withdraw from the war.
I suspect not too likely initially as I doubt too much was expected from Japan until she made her massive conquests, a fair number of which could well not occur now. Plus Germany looks very strong in Europe with Russia seeming on the verge of collapse. With Japan having failed so catastrophically one factor is Hitler may have the sense not to declare war on the US, which could delay it entering the conflict against the European axis. However given how confident he was feeling at the time I suspect he would still declare war.
Of course once nukes start landing this could change drastically. I could see a lot of the minor Axis allies, provided their offered some outlet that doesn't involve either Nazi [in the short term] or Soviet occupation. Of course it might mean accepting the continuation of some unpleasant regimes so this would be an important political decision.
USA is going (at least with Roosevelt as President) to go in war with Germany, with the whole 1980s anti-submarine technology (and the experience and history lessons from every USS Nimitz crew members) it seems obvious that U-Boats haven't any chance to stand against them. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 1, 2020 14:27:19 GMT
I suspect not too likely initially as I doubt too much was expected from Japan until she made her massive conquests, a fair number of which could well not occur now. Plus Germany looks very strong in Europe with Russia seeming on the verge of collapse. With Japan having failed so catastrophically one factor is Hitler may have the sense not to declare war on the US, which could delay it entering the conflict against the European axis. However given how confident he was feeling at the time I suspect he would still declare war. Of course once nukes start landing this could change drastically. I could see a lot of the minor Axis allies, provided their offered some outlet that doesn't involve either Nazi [in the short term] or Soviet occupation. Of course it might mean accepting the continuation of some unpleasant regimes so this would be an important political decision.
USA is going (at least with Roosevelt as President) to go in war with Germany, with the whole 1980s anti-submarine technology (and the experience and history lessons from every USS Nimitz crew members) it seems obvious that U-Boats haven't any chance to stand against them. It depends, is the USA going to war with Germany if Germany does not declare war against them, despite the USS Nimitz most likely having evidence of the Holocaust, Roosevelt has to sell any declaration of war against Germany and it will be hard if the USA is not attacked by Germany. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jul 2, 2020 10:10:23 GMT
I suspect not too likely initially as I doubt too much was expected from Japan until she made her massive conquests, a fair number of which could well not occur now. Plus Germany looks very strong in Europe with Russia seeming on the verge of collapse. With Japan having failed so catastrophically one factor is Hitler may have the sense not to declare war on the US, which could delay it entering the conflict against the European axis. However given how confident he was feeling at the time I suspect he would still declare war.
Of course once nukes start landing this could change drastically. I could see a lot of the minor Axis allies, provided their offered some outlet that doesn't involve either Nazi [in the short term] or Soviet occupation. Of course it might mean accepting the continuation of some unpleasant regimes so this would be an important political decision.
USA is going (at least with Roosevelt as President) to go in war with Germany, with the whole 1980s anti-submarine technology (and the experience and history lessons from every USS Nimitz crew members) it seems obvious that U-Boats haven't any chance to stand against them.
Not in the short term as the USN isn't set up for such a conflict and members of the USN are [according to many sources] opposed to the idea of convoys and protecting shipping. hence what the Germans called the 2nd Happy Time. Knowledge from the Nimitz will help if Roosevelt is willing to override his naval commanders but there's only so much the small and largely untrained for the role forces that can be assigned to escort duties in the Caribbean and western Atlantic can do in the short term if the two go to war. It would take time to bring 1980's technology into production and even knowledge of 1940/50 equipment will need time to enter production. Tactics and doctrine will be quicker if the US leadership is willing to listen to the up-timers. Suspect the UK/Canadians could learn a lot as well and would probably be more willing to having seen the size of the problems if they brought into the loop.
I would agree with Lordroel that Roosevelt may have problems bringing the US into the European conflict IF Hitler doesn't declare war. There will be a fair number of people arguing that the Pacific and Japan is the US's war. News of the full details of the Nazi regime and its atrocities and also what happens in the post-war period with the threat that the Soviets pose will help although many isolationists are likely to be appalled by the idea of the US becoming a world power with so many forces deployed overseas. If the Nimitz's has nukes that could be a big factor as well as it would provide what will seem to be an option for a quick and easy victory, which would make fighting Nazi Germany more attractive to many.
One other factor of course is that the Nimitz's will bring news of the progress of the civil rights movement. Which is a potential minefield for Roosevelt given that the old south is a stronghold for the Democrats at this point and a lot of people there and elsewhere won't like such details of the future. It could also be a problem for up-timers who aren't white and any women who are serving on it at the time - not sure if any women serving in active warships at that stage?
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ukron
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Post by ukron on Jul 2, 2020 13:17:03 GMT
In 1978, Judge John Sirica ruled the law banning navy women from ships to be unconstitutional in the case Owens v. Brown. That year, Congress approved a change to Title 10 USC Section 6015 to permit the navy to assign women to fill sea duty billets on support and noncombatant ships. During the 1970s, women began to enter the surface warfare and aviation fields, gained access to officer accession programs previously open only to men, and started to screen for command opportunities ashore.
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oscssw
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Post by oscssw on Jul 2, 2020 13:52:35 GMT
In 1978, Judge John Sirica ruled the law banning navy women from ships to be unconstitutional in the case Owens v. Brown. That year, Congress approved a change to Title 10 USC Section 6015 to permit the navy to assign women to fill sea duty billets on support and noncombatant ships. During the 1970s, women began to enter the surface warfare and aviation fields, gained access to officer accession programs previously open only to men, and started to screen for command opportunities ashore. Given the inertia of the USN I doubt there would be any women aboard Nimitz in 1980. As I remember it (and I could be wrong) they were just beginning to crew auxiliaries in the mid '80s.
The bull sessions in the Goat Locker about "the end of the world" were quite numerous with almost all thinking it was a very bad idea with many of our black shipmates being the most outraged. The key logical argument against was DC (Damage Control) with many comments about how the gals were not going to be able to lug the P-250 pumps up ladders etc.
Oh yah the navy wives were much more upset about it than were the sailors, for obvious reasons.
As the Royal Nav types so eloquently put it. "Growl You May But Go You Must."  |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 2, 2020 14:04:13 GMT
Has anybody checked out the The Final Countdown TV Tropes page, it has some nice stuff in it. Did some spotting on image of the movie, oscssw , i think i was wrong that no Vought RF-8G Crusaders where aboard the Nimitz, seems there is one parked in the picure.  |
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oscssw
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Post by oscssw on Jul 2, 2020 14:33:28 GMT
lordroel, that sure looks like a crusader and it was SOP to have a RF-8 Det. in each CAW in 1980. Since the original F-8 fighter was retired by 1976 can't see how it could be anything but an RF-8 in 1980. However, nothing in that picture dates it as 1980. those S-3 Vikings became operational in 1974 so we know the picture is after that. Those SH3 Sea Kings don't help much either because they were operation between 1961 and 2006.
Wish I could be of more help.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 2, 2020 14:46:58 GMT
lordroel, that sure looks like a crusader and it was SOP to have a RF-8 Det. in each CAW in 1980. Since the original F-8 fighter was retired by 1976 can't see how it could be anything but an RF-8 in 1980. However, nothing in that picture dates it as 1980. those S-3 Vikings became operational in 1974 so we know the picture is after that. Those SH3 Sea Kings don't help much either because they were operation between 1961 and 2006.
Wish I could be of more help.
The movie was filmed in 1979 and released in 1980. Did find some nice F-14 clips of the movie. Clip I Clip IIClip III |
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