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Post by simon darkshade on Mar 14, 2020 8:49:06 GMT
The Poles, Norwegians, Dutch and Belgians fall under British operational command, although the Dutch have a certain degree of greater independence in 1940-42 due to the position of the Dutch East Indies. The French coordinate their strategy with Britain, but are their own actor in their own right.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Mar 14, 2020 9:10:54 GMT
The Poles, Norwegians, Dutch and Belgians fall under British operational command, although the Dutch have a certain degree of greater independence in 1940-42 due to the position of the Dutch East Indies. The French coordinate their strategy with Britain, but are their own actor in their own right. And only the Dutch and French have carriers in service of those countries you mentioned.
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Post by simon darkshade on Mar 14, 2020 9:46:57 GMT
That is correct. The Dutch carriers initially pull out to Britain and are transferred to the Far East as tensions with Japan rise and, concomitantly, the relative threat of the German surface fleet is reduced by the Norwegian Campaign, the Battle of the North Sea and Operation Lightning. Whilst the Kriegsmarine presents a threat as a fleet in being, it can be covered by the Nelsons and the most recently commissioned battleships.
The newest French carriers eventually go east with the Grand Fleet.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Mar 14, 2020 9:52:12 GMT
That is correct. The Dutch carriers initially pull out to Britain and are transferred to the Far East as tensions with Japan rise and, concomitantly, the relative threat of the German surface fleet is reduced by the Norwegian Campaign, the Battle of the North Sea and Operation Lightning. Whilst the Kriegsmarine presents a threat as a fleet in being, it can be covered by the Nelsons and the most recently commissioned battleships. The newest French carriers eventually go east with the Grand Fleet. That will give the allies more carriers then the Japanese at the start of the war in the pacific, ore am i wrong.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Mar 14, 2020 10:28:41 GMT
simon darkshade, Thanks for the additional detail. I'm only really checking in once a day currently hence my delayed response but definitely enjoying the universe your created. Steve
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Post by simon darkshade on Mar 14, 2020 10:35:34 GMT
At the start of the Pacific War, the balance is:
Allies: Lexington, Saratoga, Ranger, Yorktown, Enterprise, Hornet, Wasp; Ark Royal, Eagle, Illustrious, Invincible, Victorious, Formidable, Inflexible, Incomparable, Hermes, Centaur
Japan: Kaga, Akagi, Hiryu, Soryu, Shokaku, Zuikaku, Hiyo, Junyo, Ryujo, Ryuho, Hosho, Zuiho, Kairyu, Shinyo
The IJN has the advantage of concentrating its force, whereas the USN and RN are separated to begin with.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Mar 14, 2020 10:45:38 GMT
At the start of the Pacific War, the balance is: Allies: Lexington, Saratoga, Ranger, Yorktown, Enterprise, Hornet, Wasp; Ark Royal, Eagle, Illustrious, Invincible, Victorious, Formidable, Insuperable, Incomparable, Hermes, Centaur Japan: Kaga, Akagi, Hiryu, Soryu, Shokaku, Zuikaku, Hiyo, Junyo, Ryujo, Ryuho, Hosho, Zuiho, Kairyu, Shinyo The IJN has the advantage of concentrating its force, whereas the USN and RN are separated to begin with. But concentrating your forces as we have seen in OTL Battle of Midway means that the Japanese in one single battle can lose the majority of their carriers while the USN and RN if i am right are based around Task forces.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Mar 14, 2020 10:51:03 GMT
At the start of the Pacific War, the balance is: Allies: Lexington, Saratoga, Ranger, Yorktown, Enterprise, Hornet, Wasp; Ark Royal, Eagle, Illustrious, Invincible, Victorious, Formidable, Insuperable, Incomparable, Hermes, Centaur Japan: Kaga, Akagi, Hiryu, Soryu, Shokaku, Zuikaku, Hiyo, Junyo, Ryujo, Ryuho, Hosho, Zuiho, Kairyu, Shinyo The IJN has the advantage of concentrating its force, whereas the USN and RN are separated to begin with.
Well that's 17 to 14 but as you say the IJN have concentrated forces and united command. Also of course in TTL its by no means certain that no USN CVs will be at Pearl if/when that's attacked or with Force Z if that still suffers losses so there could shortly be a IJN numerical superiority. However didn't you just say there are French and Dutch CVs to boost the allied ranks. Although how the forces of the four navies interact and their relative performance and norms of operation are another matter. [When HMS Victorian operated with the USN in 1943 for instance it had to change a lot of systems of operation including the batmen helping signal down landing plans.] Plus of course while things are going reasonably well in the Med and Atlantic the RN especially will have to station forces, including CVs in those theatres.
In terms of the listed ships HMS Insuperable doesn't ring a bell as a name that has been used in the RN and I can't find any match in Wiki. Should that be something different or did you decide to add a new name for originality.
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Post by simon darkshade on Mar 14, 2020 11:04:00 GMT
The circumstances of the USN and RN are different due to the locations they will be operating in; the USN have a lot more space.
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Post by simon darkshade on Mar 14, 2020 11:18:43 GMT
At the start of the Pacific War, the balance is: Allies: Lexington, Saratoga, Ranger, Yorktown, Enterprise, Hornet, Wasp; Ark Royal, Eagle, Illustrious, Invincible, Victorious, Formidable, Insuperable, Incomparable, Hermes, Centaur Japan: Kaga, Akagi, Hiryu, Soryu, Shokaku, Zuikaku, Hiyo, Junyo, Ryujo, Ryuho, Hosho, Zuiho, Kairyu, Shinyo The IJN has the advantage of concentrating its force, whereas the USN and RN are separated to begin with.
Well that's 17 to 14 but as you say the IJN have concentrated forces and united command. Also of course in TTL its by no means certain that no USN CVs will be at Pearl if/when that's attacked or with Force Z if that still suffers losses so there could shortly be a IJN numerical superiority. However didn't you just say there are French and Dutch CVs to boost the allied ranks. Although how the forces of the four navies interact and their relative performance and norms of operation are another matter. [When HMS Victorian operated with the USN in 1943 for instance it had to change a lot of systems of operation including the batmen helping signal down landing plans.] Plus of course while things are going reasonably well in the Med and Atlantic the RN especially will have to station forces, including CVs in those theatres.
In terms of the listed ships HMS Insuperable doesn't ring a bell as a name that has been used in the RN and I can't find any match in Wiki. Should that be something different or did you decide to add a new name for originality.
Steve, You are correct on the immediate Japanese advantage and may be correct regarding Pearl Harbor... There isn't a Force Z, but rather the whole Grand Fleet coming out. The French carriers will operate with the British eventually and have some teething problems; Richelieu operated historically with the Eastern Fleet in 1944/45. The Dutch will be based with lighter forces protecting their part of the Malay Barrier; the fate of their carriers will be detailed. The RN will have to keep Courageous, Glorious and Furious with the Home Fleet, along with several light fleet carriers and whatever fleet carriers are working up. The Mediterranean will need a minimum of two carriers in addition to the French Ocean, Brennus and Suffren. Insuperable should be Inflexible, sorry; one of the two Incomparable class.
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Post by simon darkshade on Mar 15, 2020 19:08:56 GMT
In the next phase of 1941, we’ll see how carrier operations in the narrow seas of the Mediterranean go against a prepared land based air force as the Luftwaffe deploys to Sicily. This will have a bearing on how the RN will subsequently fight its carrier war against Japan in 1942 and 1943 in similarly ‘enclosed’ seas.
This will be different from the USN in @ in the open Pacific and from the success of the RN off Norway. Both the Germans and British are learning from each other and evolving their tactics and how they employ their weapons.
Some general notes: - Free France fighting on from Algeria changes some of the scope of convoys to Malta, but as they are fighting a broken backed war, they do not have the fighters with sufficient range, nor the numbers, nor the pilots to provide complete air cover over convoys. The RN and Marine Royale still have to provide carrier escort in the Western Med, particularly in the Sicilian Narrows. - Similarly, they do not have the strength to push forward from the Mareth Line, but hold it with static infantry. Between that front, Morocco, Southern Spain and an ad hoc division in Egypt, there isn’t any real capacity for French offensive action until 1942, when supplies have built up from America and units have been rebuilt. - Mainland Greece falls in 1941, but Crete is held by a very strong garrison, whilst the Bulgarians try to break through the defences of Constantinople, which gets hit heavily from the air. - The Spanish-Portuguese War drags in the British, French, Italians and eventually the Germans, leading to retreat and defeat in 1941, an Andalusian bridgehead, a decisive sea battle in early February 1941 and then a royalist lead counter coup against the fascist junta. - It is the turn of the Turks in April. - The RN starts heading east in May, right after a certain German battleship is sunk by HMS Hood & co. - There is an Austro-Hungarian force alongside the DAK. - Even though the British Empire seems to be much more powerful, it is really tapped out to counter its foes by the end of 1941. It has to maintain Fighter Command and the Home Fleet in Britain; build up a new BEF for a return to France; fight holding actions in Norway, Spain and Iraq/Syria; put its major land effort into the Western Desert Campaign; hold Malta and Crete; fight the Battle of the Atlantic; build up Bomber Command and strike Germany; attack Western Europe with the Commandos; clear out Italian East Africa and fight a low level conflict in West Africa; fight the naval and air Battle of the Mediterranean; build armies in Malaya and Burma; and get the main fleet to Singapore. - As such, the roles of Canada, Australia/New Zealand, South Africa/Rhodesia and India take on even greater import than in @.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Mar 15, 2020 19:10:25 GMT
In the next phase of 1941, we’ll see how carrier operations in the narrow seas of the Mediterranean go against a prepared land based air force as the Luftwaffe deploys to Sicily. This will have a bearing on how the RN will subsequently fight its carrier war against Japan in 1942 and 1943 in similarly ‘enclosed’ seas. This will be different from the USN in @ in the open Pacific and from the success of the RN off Norway. Both the Germans and British are learning from each other and evolving their tactics and how they employ their weapons. Some general notes: - Free France fighting on from Algeria changes some of the scope of convoys to Malta, but as they are fighting a broken backed war, they do not have the fighters with sufficient range, nor the numbers, nor the pilots to provide complete air cover over convoys. The RN and Marine Royale still have to provide carrier escort in the Western Med, particularly in the Sicilian Narrows. - Similarly, they do not have the strength to push forward from the Mareth Line, but hold it with static infantry. Between that front, Morocco, Southern Spain and an ad hoc division in Egypt, there isn’t any real capacity for French offensive action until 1942, when supplies have built up from America and units have been rebuilt. - Mainland Greece falls in 1941, but Crete is held by a very strong garrison, whilst the Bulgarians try to break through the defences of Constantinople, which gets hit heavily from the air. - The Spanish-Portuguese War drags in the British, French, Italians and eventually the Germans, leading to retreat and defeat in 1941, an Andalusian bridgehead, a decisive sea battle in early February 1941 and then a royalist lead counter coup against the fascist junta. - It is the turn of the Turks in April. - The RN starts heading east in May, right after a certain German battleship is sunk by HMS Hood & co. - There is an Austro-Hungarian force alongside the DAK. - Even though the British Empire seems to be much more powerful, it is really tapped out to counter its foes by the end of 1941. It has to maintain Fighter Command and the Home Fleet in Britain; build up a new BEF for a return to France; fight holding actions in Norway, Spain and Iraq/Syria; put its major land effort into the Western Desert Campaign; hold Malta and Crete; fight the Battle of the Atlantic; build up Bomber Command and strike Germany; attack Western Europe with the Commandos; clear out Italian East Africa and fight a low level conflict in West Africa; fight the naval and air Battle of the Mediterranean; build armies in Malaya and Burma; and get the main fleet to Singapore. - As such, the roles of Canada, Australia/New Zealand, South Africa/Rhodesia and India take on even greater import than in @. What about Syria and Iraq.
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Post by simon darkshade on Mar 15, 2020 19:41:18 GMT
That is the ‘Ottoman Front’, where a small force of Commonwealth troops holds the Turkish advance:
“The Valiant had carried on as the main tank in use on the Middle Eastern front and in service with the Indian Army from mid 1940. They countered the superior numbers of Ottoman and German P40s and Panzer IIs during the defensive battles of October and November whilst General Lawrence’s Ninth Army and the Israeli Army under General Trumpeldor built up their strength for Operation Swiftsure. Two newly arrived regiments of Crusader tanks formed the vanguard of Lawrence’s right hook through the Syrian desert alongside the epic advance of Lieutenant General Sir Charles Ratcliffe’s cavalry corps.”
Ninth Army is primarily from the British Indian Army (4 infantry divisions), plus two British, one Commonwealth and one Indian cavalry divisions; a composite South African/Rhodesian infantry division and a British motorised division; and two British armoured brigades.
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Post by lordroel on Mar 15, 2020 19:46:22 GMT
That is the ‘Ottoman Front’, where a small force of Commonwealth troops holds the Turkish advance: “The Valiant had carried on as the main tank in use on the Middle Eastern front and in service with the Indian Army from mid 1940. They countered the superior numbers of Ottoman and German P40s and Panzer IIs during the defensive battles of October and November whilst General Lawrence’s Ninth Army and the Israeli Army under General Trumpeldor built up their strength for Operation Swiftsure. Two newly arrived regiments of Crusader tanks formed the vanguard of Lawrence’s right hook through the Syrian desert alongside the epic advance of Lieutenant General Sir Charles Ratcliffe’s cavalry corps.” Ninth Army is primarily from the British Indian Army (4 infantry divisions), plus two British, one Commonwealth and one Indian cavalry divisions; a composite South African/Rhodesian infantry division and a British motorised division; and two British armoured brigades. Do the Ottomans get a carrier from the Germans ore is that to much Goeben like.
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Post by simon darkshade on Mar 16, 2020 0:01:56 GMT
The Germans do not have carriers around to spare prewar and the Turks don’t have the need for one from their perspective, focussing on battleships. They are a regional power that goes up against a global superpower, both navally and in general.
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