simon darkshade
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Post by simon darkshade on Mar 4, 2020 23:30:25 GMT
The general Allied strategy regarding the French fleet is to:
1.) Keep it as a fleet in being until the Mediterranean is secure, then lay up 2.) Maintain some heavy ships at Scapa Flow to watch the Germans. 3.) Use the oldest 15” Neptunes on trade protection duty alongside their British compatriots. 4.) Deter or oppose Japanese aggression with the most modern elements.
Neptune: 44,000t, 8 x 380mm, 16 x 138mm, 12 x 75mm, 25kts Magnifique: 44,000t, 8 x 380mm, 16 x 138mm, 12 x 75mm, 25kts Foudroyant: 44,000t, 8 x 380mm, 16 x 138mm, 12 x 75mm, 25kts Triomphant: 44,000t, 8 x 380mm, 16 x 138mm, 12 x 75mm, 25kts Bucentaure: 44,000t, 8 x 380mm, 16 x 138mm, 12 x 75mm, 25kts
- Atlantic trade protection, with a view to laying up ASAP
Agamemnon: 56,000t, 8 x 460mm, 24 x 138mm, 12 x 75mm, 26kts Ajax: 56,000t, 8 x 460mm, 24 x 138mm, 12 x 75mm, 26kts Ulysse: 56,000t, 8 x 460mm, 24 x 138mm, 12 x 75mm, 26kts Sans Pareil: 56,000t, 8 x 460mm, 24 x 138mm, 12 x 75mm, 26kts Tonnere: 56,000t, 8 x 460mm, 24 x 138mm, 12 x 75mm, 26kts
- Secondline Med duties and reserve for fleet engagements, then lay up
Hercule: 69,000t, 8 x 460mm, 24 x 138mm, 32kts Annibal: 69,000t, 8 x 460mm, 24 x 138mm, 32kts
- Frontline Med duties with a secondary Atlantic role
Redoubtable: 78,000t, 8 x 510mm, 24 x 138mm, 27.5kts Vengeur: 78,000t, 8 x 510mm, 24 x 138mm, 27.5kts Robuste: 78,000t, 8 x 510mm, 24 x 138mm, 27.5kts Conquérant: 78,000t, 8 x 510mm, 24 x 138mm, 27.5kts
- Frontline Med duties, with a view towards laying up after any enemy forces are eliminated
Dunkerque: 87,000t, 8 x 510mm, 24 x 135mm, 48 x 40mm, 34kts Strasbourg: 87,000t, 8 x 510mm, 24 x 135mm, 48 x 40mm, 34kts Lyons: 87,000t, 8 x 510mm, 24 x 135mm, 48 x 40mm, 34kts Toulon: 87,000t, 8 x 510mm, 24 x 135mm, 48 x 40mm, 34kts
- Global duties, including moving to the Far East
Gloire: 116,000t, 8 x 600mm, 24 x 100mm, 80 x 40mm, 128 x 25mm, 32kts Soleil Royale: 116,000t, 8 x 600mm, 24 x 100mm, 80 x 40mm, 128 x 25mm, 32kts Victoire: 116,000t, 8 x 600mm, 24 x 100mm, 80 x 40mm, 128 x 25mm, 32kts Majestueux: 116,000t, 8 x 600mm, 24 x 100mm, 80 x 40mm, 128 x 25mm, 32kts Superbe: 116,000t, 8 x 600mm, 24 x 100mm, 80 x 40mm, 128 x 25mm, 32kts Orient: 116,000t, 8 x 600mm, 24 x 100mm, 80 x 40mm, 128 x 25mm, 32kts
- Med and global duties, with an emphasis on preserving them for the heart of the postwar fleet. To go to Scapa Flow.
Richelieu: 124,000t, 8 x 600mm, 32 x 100mm, 96 x 40mm, 128 x 25mm, 32.5kts Jean Bart: 124,000t, 8 x 600mm, 32 x 100mm, 96 x 40mm, 128 x 25mm, 32.5kts (Charlemagne: 124,000t, 8 x 600mm, 32 x 100mm, 96 x 40mm, 128 x 25mm, 32.5kts) (Jeanne D’Arc: 124,000t, 8 x 600mm, 32 x 100mm, 96 x 40mm, 128 x 25mm, 32.5kts)
- Latter two still working up and fitting out and need a long time until ready. Global duties/Far East
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Mar 5, 2020 4:22:28 GMT
The general Allied strategy regarding the French fleet is to: 1.) Keep it as a fleet in being until the Mediterranean is secure, then lay up 2.) Maintain some heavy ships at Scapa Flow to watch the Germans. 3.) Use the oldest 15” Neptunes on trade protection duty alongside their British compatriots. 4.) Deter or oppose Japanese aggression with the most modern elements. Neptune: 44,000t, 8 x 380mm, 16 x 138mm, 12 x 75mm, 25kts Magnifique: 44,000t, 8 x 380mm, 16 x 138mm, 12 x 75mm, 25kts Foudroyant: 44,000t, 8 x 380mm, 16 x 138mm, 12 x 75mm, 25kts Triomphant: 44,000t, 8 x 380mm, 16 x 138mm, 12 x 75mm, 25kts Bucentaure: 44,000t, 8 x 380mm, 16 x 138mm, 12 x 75mm, 25kts - Atlantic trade protection, with a view to laying up ASAP Agamemnon: 56,000t, 8 x 460mm, 24 x 138mm, 12 x 75mm, 26kts Ajax: 56,000t, 8 x 460mm, 24 x 138mm, 12 x 75mm, 26kts Ulysse: 56,000t, 8 x 460mm, 24 x 138mm, 12 x 75mm, 26kts Sans Pareil: 56,000t, 8 x 460mm, 24 x 138mm, 12 x 75mm, 26kts Tonnere: 56,000t, 8 x 460mm, 24 x 138mm, 12 x 75mm, 26kts - Secondline Med duties and reserve for fleet engagements, then lay up Hercule: 69,000t, 8 x 460mm, 24 x 138mm, 32kts Annibal: 69,000t, 8 x 460mm, 24 x 138mm, 32kts - Frontline Med duties with a secondary Atlantic role Redoubtable: 78,000t, 8 x 510mm, 24 x 138mm, 27.5kts Vengeur: 78,000t, 8 x 510mm, 24 x 138mm, 27.5kts Robuste: 78,000t, 8 x 510mm, 24 x 138mm, 27.5kts Conquérant: 78,000t, 8 x 510mm, 24 x 138mm, 27.5kts - Frontline Med duties, with a view towards laying up after any enemy forces are eliminated Dunkerque: 87,000t, 8 x 510mm, 24 x 135mm, 48 x 40mm, 34kts Strasbourg: 87,000t, 8 x 510mm, 24 x 135mm, 48 x 40mm, 34kts Lyons: 87,000t, 8 x 510mm, 24 x 135mm, 48 x 40mm, 34kts Toulon: 87,000t, 8 x 510mm, 24 x 135mm, 48 x 40mm, 34kts - Global duties, including moving to the Far East Gloire: 116,000t, 8 x 600mm, 24 x 100mm, 80 x 40mm, 128 x 25mm, 32kts Soleil Royale: 116,000t, 8 x 600mm, 24 x 100mm, 80 x 40mm, 128 x 25mm, 32kts Victoire: 116,000t, 8 x 600mm, 24 x 100mm, 80 x 40mm, 128 x 25mm, 32kts Majestueux: 116,000t, 8 x 600mm, 24 x 100mm, 80 x 40mm, 128 x 25mm, 32kts Superbe: 116,000t, 8 x 600mm, 24 x 100mm, 80 x 40mm, 128 x 25mm, 32kts Orient: 116,000t, 8 x 600mm, 24 x 100mm, 80 x 40mm, 128 x 25mm, 32kts - Med and global duties, with an emphasis on preserving them for the heart of the postwar fleet. To go to Scapa Flow. Richelieu: 124,000t, 8 x 600mm, 32 x 100mm, 96 x 40mm, 128 x 25mm, 32.5kts Jean Bart: 124,000t, 8 x 600mm, 32 x 100mm, 96 x 40mm, 128 x 25mm, 32.5kts (Charlemagne: 124,000t, 8 x 600mm, 32 x 100mm, 96 x 40mm, 128 x 25mm, 32.5kts) (Jeanne D’Arc: 124,000t, 8 x 600mm, 32 x 100mm, 96 x 40mm, 128 x 25mm, 32.5kts) - Latter two still working up and fitting out and need a long time until ready. Global duties/Far East So if the French is a monarchy, that is if i am correct in the assumption, could be wrong, why are no French ships named after former ore current monarchs like what is done in the United Kingdom.
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simon darkshade
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Post by simon darkshade on Mar 5, 2020 15:52:18 GMT
It is simply the different traditional nomenclature of the French Navy. They are not a facsimile of the British just as they are a monarchy.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Mar 5, 2020 15:56:11 GMT
It is simply the different traditional nomenclature of the French Navy. They are not a facsimile of the British just as they are a monarchy. But they do name a ship after i assume a former emperor of France.
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Post by simon darkshade on Mar 6, 2020 2:38:19 GMT
Yes, as happened in 1850. The naming of the 1940s battleship symbolises the reintegration of the Bonapartists.
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Post by simon darkshade on Mar 8, 2020 15:51:01 GMT
Another little snippet to show the last parts of 1940:
As darkness fell over the North Sea, the Grand Fleet was moving towards its launching position for a daring nocturnal strike on Kiel. Operation Lightning. This is a considerably more dangerous operation given the necessity to make part of the approach over land. RAF reconnaissance flights over the previous weeks have indicated that a tempting target is present – the new capital ship Moltke, the damaged battleships Bismarck, Gneisenau and Tirpitz, the damaged carrier Hermann Goering, the pocket battleship Lutzow and the heavy cruisers Admiral Roon and Seydlitz. Covered by 12 battleships, 20 cruisers and 56 destroyers, the aircraft carriers Formidable, Indefatigable, Implacable, Hermes, Glorious and Courageous launched 135 Fairey Swordfish from 280 miles out and flew in at very low level to avoid RDF detection. They struck in two waves at 2244 and 2306. The first wave discovered that part of the intelligence on German naval units present had been faulty, with Bismarck having moved to Gotenhafen during the day. This provides only momentary discouragement as the first attack proceeded. Tirpitz was hit by five bombs and two torpedoes, developing a significant list; Gneisenau was hit by six bombs and three torpedoes before sinking in flames; Admiral Roon is hit by three bombs and four torpedoes and gradually sank; Moltke was hit by four bombs and one torpedo, causing a significant fire topside and severely damaging one of the forward turrets; and Hermann Goering was hit by seven bombs and four torpedoes, causing a catastrophic explosion. Five destroyers were also sunk by torpedoes. The attack costs a total of 24 Swordfish, a comparatively high number compared to the losses of the Mediterranean Fleet, but less than expected by the Admiralty. The final strike of the night did not involve aircraft carriers, but Operation Lucid, the first fire ship attack conducted by the Royal Navy since the Napoleonic Wars, saw the destruction of over 200 invasion barges by five converted oil tankers sent into Boulogne harbour, along with three torpedo boats and fourteen E-Boats in the resultant conflagration. The effect on British public opinion and morale was electric, with Admiral Cunningham of the Mediterranean Fleet, Admiral Fraser of the Grand Fleet, Admiral Ramsay of the Channel Fleet and Commodore Augustus Agar being hailed as heroes of the Empire. Newsreel footage of the attacks was rushed by flying boat to the United States, where The New York Times ran several excited stories calling for a military alliance with the British Empire. The impact of Lightning and Lucid would bring an end to any prospects of a German invasion of the British Isles in 1940.
The performance of the Fleet Air Arm over Taranto and Kiel did not go unnoticed by other major carrier navies, with new consideration given to the capabilities displayed by the Swordfish and Buccaneer. The Royal Navy regarded the results achieved by its strike aircraft as extremely satisfactory, but the margin of superiority of the Supermarine Eagle and Hawker Firefly over German and Italian aircraft was not seen as sufficiently advantageous to offset the capabilities of shore-based aircraft against carrier raids. Newer models of both fighters began to enter service in October and December respectively, with the Supermarine Eagle Mark III, carrying an improved armament of four 25mm cannon and powered by a new 2000hp Rolls Royce Merlin anticipated as clearly extending the Royal Navy's edge in air-to-air combat. The needs for a greatly expanded Fleet Air Arm at the same time as the Royal Air Force was engaged in the Battle of Britain saw the latter naturely given priority and 12 FAA fighter squadrons were seconded to Fighter Command operational control, delaying the entry into service of taxed the training establishment of the first of the light fleet carriers and the fleet carrier Ocean into the new year. At the same time, the increasing pressure of the German U-Boat threat in the Battle of the Atlantic took its toll upon the RN as the number of Kriegsmarine submarines in the crucial sea lanes greatly increased when new bases in France and Southern Norway became operational. HMS Fearless was sunk by U-99 in the Western Approaches on October 28th and the light carrier HMS Frobisher was declared a total constructive loss after being torpedoed by U-78 within sight of Reykjavik whilst transporting aircraft to the British garrison of Iceland. The entry of the first auxiliary carriers into the fray did provide a not-insubstantiable measure of relief and slowly, in conjunction with increased long range patrols by RNAS Short Stirlings and airships, the tide began to turn by the end of the year.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Mar 8, 2020 16:26:57 GMT
The performance of the Fleet Air Arm over Taranto and Kiel did not go unnoticed by other major carrier navies, The Japanese and the United States i guess will be among them.
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Post by simon darkshade on Mar 8, 2020 17:14:19 GMT
They are the two other carrier fleets, yes. The Italians and Germans have taken enough damage to almost knock them out of the game, leaving the French and Dutch.
The French operate primarily in the Med as previously said, whilst the Dutch carriers will be going out to Singapore to join the growing British fleet there.
As of October 1940, the Far Eastern Fleet has:
BB: HMAS Australia, HMNZS New Zealand, HMS Revenge, HMS Royal Oak, HMS Resistance, HMS Reprisal CV: HMS Incomparable, HMS Inflexible, HMAS Anzac BC: HMS St David, HMS St Patrick, HMS Henry V, HMS Royal Arthur, HNLMS Java, HNLMS Sumatra
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Post by simon darkshade on Mar 12, 2020 17:29:03 GMT
Another one of these short snippets. I will put up the whole version in due course (currently doing Cape Spartivento and Cape Matapan), but this serves as both a little teaser and also to see whether the overall concept works. Comments on this or the previous one are welcome.
At the beginning of 1941, the general situation faced by Britain and her allies remained parlous. The Battle of the Atlantic, although beginning to shift in Allied favour, was still a vast and complex one fraught with existential danger and German U-Boat production was increasing by the week. In Norway, the grinding fighting in the centre of the country had slowed over winter and German control over the most populous and productive parts of the country seemed increasingly secure. Prime Minister Sir Winston Churchill had declared that the main focus of the British Empire's war effort for the year must lie in the Mediterranean, the 'crucible of victory', which was now looking further away than ever. The presence of Austro-Hungarian and German forces in North Africa had shifted the nature of the conflict there, even as British and Commonwealth forces were now committed to Greece. The initial Turkish offensive in the Middle East had been blunted by Imperial forces, which even now gathered in Israel and Iraq for an audacious counterattack, whilst the British and French expeditionary forces in Portugal did not seem capable of decisive offensive action against the Spanish and Italian foe. This necessary division of force to aid beleagured democratic allied states and protect the vitally important positions in Egypt and the Suez Canal was mirrored by affairs at sea, which saw the strength of the Royal Navy spread over multiple theatres, denying it the ability to concentrate and deliver decisive blows in the manner of October 1940. The Admiralty ever looked to the situation in the Far East and knew that time was running short to begin the dispatch of a sufficient battle fleet to deter the increasingly expansive ambitions of Japanese expansionism. Increased deployments of warships and auxiliaries east of Suez in the final months of 1940 had been however, it was but the beginning of what was required; Admiralty plans called for 6 months notice to gather, provision and send the fleet and Royal Marines.
Whilst the demands upon the Royal Navy had taxed it to the limit in the first full year of war, now the process of prewar rearmament and emergency naval construction would begin to bear valuable fruit. Three fleet and five light aircraft carriers, six battleships, four battlecruisers, a dozen cruisers, forty invaluable destroyers and over a hundred escorts were scheduled to enter service over the course of the year, aircraft production was increasing and the 11 auxiliary aircraft carriers converted in the early part of the war were now becoming operational. They would now be joined by the first of a new type of smaller, versatile carrier, as three merchant vessels, including the captured German SS Hannover, began conversion into small 'merchant auxiliary aircraft carriers', later better known as escort aircraft carriers. It was estimated that at least 75 such ships would be required to provide full coverage to every convoy operating in the North Atlantic, a daunting prospect for British shipbuilding capacity, even when augmented by the burgeoning military industrial power of the Dominion of Canada across the ocean, which was mustering its might for the challenge with a fierce pride and determination. Already in January, very quiet discussions were occurring regarding the ordering of new auxiliary ships from the United States of America, which was being bought ever closer to full involvement in the world war.
The 1941 War Emergency Naval Construction Programme reflected the priorities of the British Empire in this dark hour, mostly consisting of anti-submarine escorts for service on the vital convoy routes and light surface combatants to harrass and raid the imprisoned continent of Europe as it sweltered under the tyrannous Nazi yoke. The voracious demands of tank manufacturing for the active fronts in Norway and North Africa drew much of British armour production and the first priority for light and medium anti-aircraft guns went to Anti-Aircraft Command and the Royal Air Force. Tentative plans for the construction of a new class of fully armoured super battlecruisers were set aside in light of these necessities and it took exceptional efforts on the part of First Sea Lord Sir Dudley Pound to save the Tiger class cruisers projected to be laid down that year. A final group of four light aircraft carriers were approved, rather than the eight that the Admiralty had asked for, with the demands of merchant ship repair and maintenance of the Grand Fleet after punishing long term operations in the North Sea and off Scandinavaia putting paid to them. The finally agreed programme consisted of 4 light aircraft carriers, 8 cruisers, 32 destroyers, 32 destroyer escorts, 48 frigates, 20 sloops, 39 submarines, 56 corvettes, 62 minesweepers, 80 naval trawlers and 268 torpedo boats, with one important addition - the Malta class large aircraft carriers. The design of these successors to the Illustrious class fleet carriers had been underway since 1936 and had undergone many alterations along the way, the latest of which incorporated some of the improved features of the cancelled 1940 Aircraft Carriers, but, through a supreme effort of will, argument and bitter compromise, four ships were authorised for 1941. They represented a clear leap in size and capability over the Ark Royal and Illustrious class ships, coming in at over 1000ft in length, displacing upwards of 56,000t and protected by a stronger armoured deck and belt than their predecessors, all at an increased speed. The Maltas were designed to operate 120 aircraft and carried the formidable anti-aircraft gun defences yet put to sea on a British carrier, consisting of 24 5.25", 72 40mm Bofors and over 100 25mm Maxim guns. These were ships designed for global operations, with a particular view towards the threat posed by Imperial Japan in the Far East, yet even as dark war clouds began to gather over the Orient, it seemed that it may be too late.
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simon darkshade
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Post by simon darkshade on Mar 12, 2020 17:59:18 GMT
The problem of Main Fleet to Singapore:
- The consistent strategy of the Andrew since the early 1920s for war with Japan has been to send out the fleet, recapture Hong Kong (which was presumed as an early loss), enforce a distant blockade of Japan in conjunction with submarine, cruiser and carrier attrition and, when and if the time was right, engage in a fleet battle. The RAF made a lot of noises about seizing an appropriate forward base for strategic bombing operations, but did not have the clout to have it included. - Plan for the Royal Marines to seize Formosa or Okinawa as a forward fleet base proceeded very roughly, as Hong Kong was the preferred option. - The proposed fleet size in the 1920s, based on IJN strength post Paris Naval Agreement, was 25-30 capital ships, 10 battlecruisers, 10 aircraft carriers, 60 cruisers, at least 150 destroyers and escorts and 70 submarines, which would require a minimum of 550 tankers in support. - The plan would be split into 3 phases: 1. Period of Pre-reinforcement (Hold Singapore as fleet base, Distant blockade at Suez, Cape of Good Hope, East Indies) 2. Period of Consolidation (Re-establish Hong Kong as forward fleet operating base) 3. Period of Advance (Destroy IJN and institute closer blockade to bring about victory)
The RN of 1941 faces substantially more challenges than Japan alone. 1.) After clearing the Med, it can reinforce with perhaps 12 BB, 8 CV, 40-50 cruisers, 100 destroyers and 50-60 submarines. 2.) This puts it at a disadvantage against the Combined Fleet + Kido Butai, but would have the RAN and RNZN operating with it, supported by the Dutch squadron at Batavia and a French squadron. 3.) The legacy Axis threat in the Med can be handled by the French, Commonwealth (South African and Indian) and the Queen Elizabeths + King Richards 4.) A Home Fleet of the eight Nelsons, four RCN battleships, the newest 24” ships and some French ships can cover the legacy Kriegsmarine force 5.) As of 1/1/1941, US entry into the war is anticipated, but not clear when; their contribution would make the world of difference.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Mar 12, 2020 19:23:20 GMT
5.) As of 1/1/1941, US entry into the war is anticipated, but not clear when; their contribution would make the world of difference. So the US can focus on the Japanese while the RN and Free French can focus on the Germans and Italians, what is left on them.
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Post by simon darkshade on Mar 12, 2020 23:08:51 GMT
No, that is quite the opposite of what is planned and outlined, particularly in Point #1, #3, #4 and the entire notion of the British strategy of ‘Main Fleet to Singapore’, in both posts. The Royal Navy is going east.
USN forces would provide the necessary addition in the Atlantic, whilst Italy is well on the way to being neutralised. The full details of the strategic approach in the Med, including breaking the Tyrennian Triangle and implementing the Trident Plan, will come out in 1942 and 1943.
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Post by lordroel on Mar 13, 2020 9:32:32 GMT
No, that is quite the opposite of what is planned and outlined, particularly in Point #1, #3, #4 and the entire notion of the British strategy of ‘Main Fleet to Singapore’, in both posts. The Royal Navy is going east. USN forces would provide the necessary addition in the Atlantic, whilst Italy is well on the way to being neutralised. The full details of the strategic approach in the Med, including breaking the Tyrennian Triangle and implementing the Trident Plan, will come out in 1942 and 1943. A thanks for the clarification simon.
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Post by simon darkshade on Mar 14, 2020 4:51:13 GMT
Given that you two chaps seem to be the only ones in the world to read and comment on my works, I endeavour to make things clear and provide a fair bit of background detail for you. That was the purpose of the previous post, outlining the difficulties involved with implementing the prewar strategy of the move to the east, but emphasising that it still occurs in a substantial way. There was no part that indicated a complete concentration on Europe, but rather the contrary, which made me think that perhaps it wasn't clear enough.
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Post by lordroel on Mar 14, 2020 7:22:49 GMT
Given that you two chaps seem to be the only ones in the world to read and comment on my works, I endeavour to make things clear and provide a fair bit of background detail for you. That was the purpose of the previous post, outlining the difficulties involved with implementing the prewar strategy of the move to the east, but emphasising that it still occurs in a substantial way. There was no part that indicated a complete concentration on Europe, but rather the contrary, which made me think that perhaps it wasn't clear enough. Do the navies of countries in exile fall under British command during the 2nd World War.
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