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Post by simon darkshade on May 26, 2020 12:08:58 GMT
Steve,
The Japanese plans, like those of mice and men, will go awry.
Their WW1 experiences are enough to change their perspective, but not quite enough to give them pause, particularly in their internal conflicts and interservice powerplays.
Smashing the Kra is one option, but there will be a need to advance up through it in due course; running an invasion of Siam through Burma or amphibiously would not be ideal.
Churchill is one among many strong personalities and doesn't quite assert the same personal dominance as in @. Weighed up against this is a greater career record of success; at the end of the day, there are trade-offs and 'victories' for Churchill in some areas are traded off against concessions in others. Perhaps the driving factor in British naval strategy in the Far East is, unlike the USA or even Japan, it completed its naval armament process earlier; if it loses this fleet, it doesn't have too many replacements in the production pipeline.
There are a fair lot of carriers, most of which are larger than the average flattops in @, but this comes from the need to project power over much larger areas of ocean on a larger world. Lordroel is right on the numbers; there are quite a few with more than just a single token ship.
Simon
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Post by simon darkshade on May 26, 2020 15:29:58 GMT
"In the Mediterranean, the Regia Marina had taken virtually the whole of the remainder of 1941 to recover from the devastating blow of the Battle of Cape Matapan. The impact of the RN submarine campaign against Italian shipping and the vital maritime link to the Axis armies under Field Marshal Rommel in North Africa began to show decisive results in early 1942, as the fuel supplies available to the Italian battlefleet were increasingly constrained. Now a combined British, American and French fleet mustered in Gibraltar, Oran and Alexandria that vastly outnumbered the Regia Marina and, even as fighting continued in the Western Desert, the grand design for the invasion of Italy was underway, building on planning that had begun back in the dark days of 1940. In the first half of 1942, the capital ships of the Regia Marina were mainly kept back in the relative safety of La Spezia and Livorno, with only lighter forces based at Naples and Taranto, and attempts to draw them out into the range of Allied carriers and battleships were unsuccessful. The grand Allied triumph at the Battle of El Alamein in June 1942 and the subsequent fall of Tripoli on August 4th was the harbinger of the next stage in the Battle of the Mediterranean, the invasion of Sicily, codenamed Operation Husky. The speed of the Axis collapse in North Africa brought forward the invasion to November 5th 1942, coordinating it with the planned Soviet counteroffensive around Stalingrad.
All Allied naval forces in the Mediterranean theatre came under the overall command of Admiral Somerville at Malta. To prevent the Regia Marina from interfering with the landing, a huge covering fleet under the command of Admiral Sir Bruce Fraser that dwarfed that assigned to Torch would deploy between Malta and Pantalleria, capable of reacting to sorties from either Taranto or La Spezia and supporting the landing forces. It would consist of 24 battleships (Nebraska, Oklahoma, South Carolina, Delaware, Dragon, Trafalgar, Superb, Magnificent, Nelson, Rodney, HMSAS South Africa, HMSAS Good Hope, HMCS America, HMNS Newfoundland, Gloire, Soleil Royale, Victoire, Majesteux, Orient, Superbe, Chile, Brasil, La Argentina and México), 8 battlecruisers, 13 carriers (Albion, Bulwark, Courageous, Glorious, Ranger, Océan, Suffren, Charles Martel, Brennus, Perseus, Belleau Wood and San Jacinto), 35 cruisers and 84 destroyers, operating alongside the Red Navy's Mediterranean Squadron. The landings themselves on would be supported by three task forces under the overall command of Admiral Sir Bertram Ramsey deploying 16 older battleships, 12 monitors, 29 cruisers, 20 escort carriers and 67 destroyers, in addition to smaller gunboats and rocket-equipped landing craft. In the face of the overwhelming force deployed off Sicily, the major units of the Regia Marina stayed in their ports, secure for the moment. Husky would see the most concentrated use of aircraft carriers to date and was the largest Allied fleet deployed to that point of the war. The end of the threat of the Regia Marina and broader Axis surface menace in the Mediterranean would come in 1943, not with a last defiant roar, but with a whimper."
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on May 26, 2020 16:56:23 GMT
"In the Mediterranean, the Regia Marina had taken virtually the whole of the remainder of 1941 to recover from the devastating blow of the Battle of Cape Matapan. The impact of the RN submarine campaign against Italian shipping and the vital maritime link to the Axis armies under Field Marshal Rommel in North Africa began to show decisive results in early 1942, as the fuel supplies available to the Italian battlefleet were increasingly constrained. Now a combined British, American and French fleet mustered in Gibraltar, Oran and Alexandria that vastly outnumbered the Regia Marina and, even as fighting continued in the Western Desert, the grand design for the invasion of Italy was underway, building on planning that had begun back in the dark days of 1940. In the first half of 1942, the capital ships of the Regia Marina were mainly kept back in the relative safety of La Spezia and Livorno, with only lighter forces based at Naples and Taranto, and attempts to draw them out into the range of Allied carriers and battleships were unsuccessful. The grand Allied triumph at the Battle of El Alamein in June 1942 and the subsequent fall of Tripoli on August 4th was the harbinger of the next stage in the Battle of the Mediterranean, the invasion of Sicily, codenamed Operation Husky. The speed of the Axis collapse in North Africa brought forward the invasion to November 5th 1942, coordinating it with the planned Soviet counteroffensive around Stalingrad. All Allied naval forces in the Mediterranean theatre came under the overall command of Admiral Somerville at Malta. To prevent the Regia Marina from interfering with the landing, a huge covering fleet under the command of Admiral Sir Bruce Fraser that dwarfed that assigned to Torch would deploy between Malta and Pantalleria, capable of reacting to sorties from either Taranto or La Spezia and supporting the landing forces. It would consist of 24 battleships ( Nebraska, Oklahoma, South Carolina, Delaware, Dragon, Trafalgar, Superb, Magnificent, Nelson, Rodney, HMSAS South Africa, HMSAS Good Hope, HMCS America, HMNS Newfoundland, Gloire, Soleil Royale, Victoire, Majesteux, Orient, Superbe, Chile, Brasil, La Argentina and México), 8 battlecruisers, 13 carriers ( Albion, Bulwark, Courageous, Glorious, Ranger, Océan, Suffren, Charles Martel, Brennus, Perseus, Belleau Wood and San Jacinto), 35 cruisers and 84 destroyers, operating alongside the Red Navy's Mediterranean Squadron. The landings themselves on would be supported by three task forces under the overall command of Admiral Sir Bertram Ramsey deploying 16 older battleships, 12 monitors, 29 cruisers, 20 escort carriers and 67 destroyers, in addition to smaller gunboats and rocket-equipped landing craft. In the face of the overwhelming force deployed off Sicily, the major units of the Regia Marina stayed in their ports, secure for the moment. Husky would see the most concentrated use of aircraft carriers to date and was the largest Allied fleet deployed to that point of the war. The end of the threat of the Regia Marina and broader Axis surface menace in the Mediterranean would come in 1943, not with a last defiant roar, but with a whimper." So the Allies land a year earlier than OTL, will we also see the collapse of Italy a year earlier ore will this Italy fight united against the Allies until defeated. |
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Post by simon darkshade on May 26, 2020 18:01:17 GMT
The landing occur in November 1942 and the Battle of Sicily is wrapped up by January 1943. The landings in Italy follow in April 1943, so running about ~6 months ahead of the historical schedule. The Italians throw in the towel with the invasion, turning the battle into one between the Allies and the Germans. First step is cracking the Gustav Line, then taking Rome, then pushing through the Gothic Line and then finally pushing up through the Alpine Line defences into the Ljubljana and Austria-Hungary by January 1945.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on May 27, 2020 9:53:58 GMT
"In the Mediterranean, the Regia Marina had taken virtually the whole of the remainder of 1941 to recover from the devastating blow of the Battle of Cape Matapan. The impact of the RN submarine campaign against Italian shipping and the vital maritime link to the Axis armies under Field Marshal Rommel in North Africa began to show decisive results in early 1942, as the fuel supplies available to the Italian battlefleet were increasingly constrained. Now a combined British, American and French fleet mustered in Gibraltar, Oran and Alexandria that vastly outnumbered the Regia Marina and, even as fighting continued in the Western Desert, the grand design for the invasion of Italy was underway, building on planning that had begun back in the dark days of 1940. In the first half of 1942, the capital ships of the Regia Marina were mainly kept back in the relative safety of La Spezia and Livorno, with only lighter forces based at Naples and Taranto, and attempts to draw them out into the range of Allied carriers and battleships were unsuccessful. The grand Allied triumph at the Battle of El Alamein in June 1942 and the subsequent fall of Tripoli on August 4th was the harbinger of the next stage in the Battle of the Mediterranean, the invasion of Sicily, codenamed Operation Husky. The speed of the Axis collapse in North Africa brought forward the invasion to November 5th 1942, coordinating it with the planned Soviet counteroffensive around Stalingrad. All Allied naval forces in the Mediterranean theatre came under the overall command of Admiral Somerville at Malta. To prevent the Regia Marina from interfering with the landing, a huge covering fleet under the command of Admiral Sir Bruce Fraser that dwarfed that assigned to Torch would deploy between Malta and Pantalleria, capable of reacting to sorties from either Taranto or La Spezia and supporting the landing forces. It would consist of 24 battleships ( Nebraska, Oklahoma, South Carolina, Delaware, Dragon, Trafalgar, Superb, Magnificent, Nelson, Rodney, HMSAS South Africa, HMSAS Good Hope, HMCS America, HMNS Newfoundland, Gloire, Soleil Royale, Victoire, Majesteux, Orient, Superbe, Chile, Brasil, La Argentina and México), 8 battlecruisers, 13 carriers ( Albion, Bulwark, Courageous, Glorious, Ranger, Océan, Suffren, Charles Martel, Brennus, Perseus, Belleau Wood and San Jacinto), 35 cruisers and 84 destroyers, operating alongside the Red Navy's Mediterranean Squadron. The landings themselves on would be supported by three task forces under the overall command of Admiral Sir Bertram Ramsey deploying 16 older battleships, 12 monitors, 29 cruisers, 20 escort carriers and 67 destroyers, in addition to smaller gunboats and rocket-equipped landing craft. In the face of the overwhelming force deployed off Sicily, the major units of the Regia Marina stayed in their ports, secure for the moment. Husky would see the most concentrated use of aircraft carriers to date and was the largest Allied fleet deployed to that point of the war. The end of the threat of the Regia Marina and broader Axis surface menace in the Mediterranean would come in 1943, not with a last defiant roar, but with a whimper."
Simon that's a hell of a force. So this time the US is willing to commit substantial forces to the Med. That is good as long as it continues. With amphibious support Italy could be a markedly quicker and less costly campaign. Does the fact that FNA being allied mean there is no retreat by the AK and hence Rommel is captured there or does he still manage to escape?
It also helps that things are moving quicker anyway with Axis defeat in N Africa being followed so quickly by the invasion of Sicily.
Should that be Royal rather than Red I assume? Which shows how big the allied force is when it excludes the Med Fleet.
Steve
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Post by simon darkshade on May 27, 2020 12:00:50 GMT
Steve,
It is a large force. The US presence does go down in 1943 as the two South Dakotas go to the Pacific, but the Atlantic Fleet retains a force of old battleships into 1944, plus whatever carriers are newly commissioned.
Italy is perhaps less costly, but is still lengthy due to its terrain. The Afrika Korps does not have a Tunisia to retreat into, so is cut off earlier; Rommel escapes due to being off home sick with a note.
The invasion of Sicily is able to follow so quickly as it involves Anglo-French planning from 1940 onward, Anglo-American planning from mid 1941 onward and a build up of forces in French North Africa that I’ve referred to previously; it takes a long time to pay off, but finally bears fruit.
It is the Red Navy of the Soviet Union, made up of two battleships from the Northern Fleet. Their role isn’t really needed, but Stalin is keen on extending his influence.
USN
Battleships: Oklahoma, Nebraska; South Carolina, Delaware; New Mexico, Mississippi, Arkansas, Minnesota, New York, Texas
Carriers: Ranger
Light Carriers: Belleau Wood, San Jacinto
Escort Carriers: Long Island, Nantucket, Belle Isle, Sangamon, Bogue, Santee, Copahee, Suwannee, Chenango, Carr, Core
Heavy Cruisers: Pittsburgh, Augusta, Rockford, Groton, Knoxville, Ogden, Chester, Tuscaloosa
Light Cruisers: York, Raleigh, Marblehead, Savannah, Little Rock, Bismarck, Phoenix, Santa Fe, Astoria, Chattanooga
36 Destroyers
RN
Battleships: Dragon, Trafalgar, Superb, Magnificent, Nelson, Rodney, HMSAS South Africa, HMSAS Good Hope, HMNS Newfoundland, HMCS America; Queen Elizabeth, Warspite, Valiant, Barham, Queen Victoria, Resolution
Battlecruisers: King Richard I, King Henry V, King Alfred, Royal Arthur, OKP Jan Sobieski, BNP Georgios Averof
Carriers: Albion, Bulwark, Courageous, Glorious
Light Carriers: Perseus, Hector
Escort Carriers: Bold, Dasher, Vindex, Citadel, Growler, Hunter, Campania, Nairana, Aurania
Heavy Cruisers: Somerset, Lancaster, Cumberland, Monmouth, Drake, Ratcliffe, HMSAS Capetown, HMSAS Durban, OKP Krakow
Light Cruisers: Avalon, Randernesse, Alexander, Galatea, Penelope, Aurora, Poseidon, Leonidas, Minerva, Juno, Arethusa, Minerva, HMSAS Johannesburg, HMSAS Bloemfontein
Monitors: Roberts, Abercrombie, Wolseley, Gordon, Marshal Soult, Marshal Ney, Erebus, Terror, Prince Eugene, Prince Rupert, General Wolfe, Lord Clive
68 Destroyers
Marine Royale
Battleships: Gloire, Soleil Royale, Victoire, Majestueux, Superbe, Orient; Redoubtable, Conquerant; Agamemnon, Ajax, Ulysse, Sans Pareil
Battlecruisers: Hercule, Annibal
Carriers: Ocean, Suffren, Charles Martel, Brennus
Heavy Cruisers: Lafayette, Rochambeau, Turrene, Magenta, Algerie, Morocco, Indochine, Tunisie, Senegal, Madagascar
Light Cruisers: Victor Hugo, Dupuy de Lome, Jules Verne, Duguay-Trouin, Emile Bertin, La Motte-Picquet, Primauguet, d'Iberville, La Bourdonnais, Jauréguiberry, Vauquelin, D'Estrées, Maillé-Brézé, Du Chayla, Lansequenet
54 Destroyers
In addition, there are ships from Mexico, Brazil, Argentina and Chile, as well as Comintern and Sovetskaya Rossiya. Other French ships are covering Spain and Sardinia.
Simon
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on May 27, 2020 14:32:23 GMT
Steve, It is a large force. The US presence does go down in 1943 as the two South Dakotas go to the Pacific, but the Atlantic Fleet retains a force of old battleships into 1944, plus whatever carriers are newly commissioned. Italy is perhaps less costly, but is still lengthy due to its terrain. The Afrika Korps does not have a Tunisia to retreat into, so is cut off earlier; Rommel escapes due to being off home sick with a note. The invasion of Sicily is able to follow so quickly as it involves Anglo-French planning from 1940 onward, Anglo-American planning from mid 1941 onward and a build up of forces in French North Africa that I’ve referred to previously; it takes a long time to pay off, but finally bears fruit. It is the Red Navy of the Soviet Union, made up of two battleships from the Northern Fleet. Their role isn’t really needed, but Stalin is keen on extending his influence. USN Battleships: Oklahoma, Nebraska; South Carolina, Delaware; New Mexico, Mississippi, Arkansas, Minnesota, New York, Texas Carriers: Ranger Light Carriers: Belleau Wood, San Jacinto Escort Carriers: Long Island, Nantucket, Belle Isle, Sangamon, Bogue, Santee, Copahee, Suwannee, Chenango, Carr, Core Heavy Cruisers: Pittsburgh, Augusta, Rockford, Groton, Knoxville, Ogden, Chester, Tuscaloosa Light Cruisers: York, Raleigh, Marblehead, Savannah, Little Rock, Bismarck, Phoenix, Santa Fe, Astoria, Chattanooga 36 Destroyers RN Battleships: Dragon, Trafalgar, Superb, Magnificent, Nelson, Rodney, HMSAS South Africa, HMSAS Good Hope, HMNS Newfoundland, HMCS America; Queen Elizabeth, Warspite, Valiant, Barham, Queen Victoria, Resolution Battlecruisers: King Richard I, King Henry V, King Alfred, Royal Arthur, OKP Jan Sobieski, BNP Georgios Averof Carriers: Albion, Bulwark, Courageous, Glorious Light Carriers: Perseus, Hector Escort Carriers: Bold, Dasher, Vindex, Citadel, Growler, Hunter, Campania, Nairana, Aurania Heavy Cruisers: Somerset, Lancaster, Cumberland, Monmouth, Drake, Ratcliffe, HMSAS Capetown, HMSAS Durban, OKP Krakow Light Cruisers: Avalon, Randernesse, Alexander, Galatea, Penelope, Aurora, Poseidon, Leonidas, Minerva, Juno, Arethusa, Minerva, HMSAS Johannesburg, HMSAS Bloemfontein Monitors: Roberts, Abercrombie, Wolseley, Gordon, Marshal Soult, Marshal Ney, Erebus, Terror, Prince Eugene, Prince Rupert, General Wolfe, Lord Clive 68 Destroyers Marine Royale Battleships: Gloire, Soleil Royale, Victoire, Majestueux, Superbe, Orient; Redoubtable, Conquerant; Agamemnon, Ajax, Ulysse, Sans Pareil Battlecruisers: Hercule, Annibal Carriers: Ocean, Suffren, Charles Martel, Brennus Heavy Cruisers: Lafayette, Rochambeau, Turrene, Magenta, Algerie, Morocco, Indochine, Tunisie, Senegal, Madagascar Light Cruisers: Victor Hugo, Dupuy de Lome, Jules Verne, Duguay-Trouin, Emile Bertin, La Motte-Picquet, Primauguet, d'Iberville, La Bourdonnais, Jauréguiberry, Vauquelin, D'Estrées, Maillé-Brézé, Du Chayla, Lansequenet 54 Destroyers In addition, there are ships from Mexico, Brazil, Argentina and Chile, as well as Comintern and Sovetskaya Rossiya. Other French ships are covering Spain and Sardinia. Simon No ships from the Netherlands, no Terrible Twins type of ships like OTL where gunboats Flores and Soemba took part in the landings of Sicily. |
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Post by simon darkshade on May 27, 2020 16:03:55 GMT
"Operational Lessons from Europe 1939-1942
The operational lessons drawn by the Royal Navy from the European campaigns in the first half of the war were mixed. Firstly, the prewar design philosophy of the fleet carriers of both the Ark Royal and Illustrious class had been successful, with the combination of armoured decks, substantive air groups and efficient anti-aircraft gun defences allowing the fleet to operate within range of land-based opposition. Secondly, carrier based airpower had been successful in opposing land-based opposition, particularly when it could best use its advantages of mobility and flexibility. Thirdly, the greatest successes had come from a narrow range of operations that had been the result of considerable prewar planning and training and this night strike capacity could not be easily applied to broader circumstances. Fourthly, the general capability and quality of carrier fighters had begun to dip in comparison with their land-based opponents, but the developments of the latter half of 1942 had begun to ameliorate this. Finally and perhaps most significantly, the aircraft carrier had proved to be the absolutely essential component of any major fleet operations.
FAA Aircraft Development
The Fleet Air Arm had been well-served by its four main aircraft in the first three years of the war, but by the end of 1942, all were beginning to show their prewar vintage. The Supermarine Eagle was considered to have the most growth potential within its sizeable airframe and capacity to take the new developments of the Rolls Royce Merlin, but the development of a multi-role high performance fighter powered by the new Rolls Royce Eagle was initiated in February 1942 as its putative replacement. In the interim, the Mark VIII Eagle entered service in March, bringing considerable agility to the formidable platform, increased range, greater hitting power with its advanced 25mm cannons and a higher top speed of 425 mph. All of these characteristics combined to give it a number of advantages in clashes with the Japanese A6M Zero in the second half of the year, although the latter aircraft remained the most nimble fighter in the world; information from captured Zeroes would be incorporated into the Mark X in 1943. The Hawker Firefly Mk IV constituted an improvement, but as a naval fighter, it lacked the true performance edge to be fully competitive with the IJN and as a strike aircraft, it could not quite compete with its dedicated counterparts. Replacement of the Firefly with a derivation of the Hawker Light Fighter under development since mid 1941 was seen as the best option, but this would take some time to bear fruit. The Swordfish torpedo bomber and Buccaneer dive bomber had soldiered on manfully through the battles of 1942 and their replacements were well on their way in the form of the Fairey Spearfish and Blackburn Firedrake, both of which represented a substantial increase in performance. Testing of a carrier-based variant of the de Havilland Mosquito began in November 1942, promising a range of capabilities currently not matched by any aircraft in service.
New Weapons
Along with new aircraft, the Fleet Air Arm would also field new weapons throughout the course of 1942 as the development efforts of the first years of war came to fruition. The most radical of these would be the 60lb Rocket Projectile, which gave attacking aircraft significant striking power, albeit at a certain cost in accuracy. These entered service from May 1942 onwards in the fighting off the coast of Malaya and Burma and were used to great effect in the Sicily campaign at the end of the year. The 2500lb heavy armour piercing bomb arrived with the Grand Fleet too late to see service in the Battles of the South China Sea, but provided a devastating capacity capable of penetrating the largest enemy vessels, proving its mettle in the Guadalcanal campaign. The Royal Navy had generally employed 18" aerial torpedoes for its strikes against enemy fleets up to 1942, but prewar efforts to develop a heavy counterpart capable of sinking enemy capital ships had finally resulted in the operational availability of the 24.5" Mk V in December 1942. Finally, parallel to Barnes Wallis' project for a large bouncing bomb for employment against German hydroelectric dams, development of an innovative spherical weapon suitable for deployment on carrier aircraft continued at considerable pace.
The Turning of the Tide
By the end of 1942, the tide of the war had begun to shift towards Allied victory, after the year had begun with such portent of disaster. The Royal Navy had begun the year as the most powerful navy in the world, yet by Christmas, the changing of the guard had definitely occurred and now the United States Navy was unquestionably the mightiest force on the seven seas. The Grand Fleet now gathered its strength once again at Singapore and in India for a new offensive against the Empire of Japan in conjunction with the United States Pacific Fleet what was to be the greatest pincer movement of the war. In the fighting of this hardest year of deep war, the aircraft carrier had been the indispensable weapon of the Royal Navy."
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Post by simon darkshade on May 27, 2020 16:08:23 GMT
Steve, It is a large force. The US presence does go down in 1943 as the two South Dakotas go to the Pacific, but the Atlantic Fleet retains a force of old battleships into 1944, plus whatever carriers are newly commissioned. Italy is perhaps less costly, but is still lengthy due to its terrain. The Afrika Korps does not have a Tunisia to retreat into, so is cut off earlier; Rommel escapes due to being off home sick with a note. The invasion of Sicily is able to follow so quickly as it involves Anglo-French planning from 1940 onward, Anglo-American planning from mid 1941 onward and a build up of forces in French North Africa that I’ve referred to previously; it takes a long time to pay off, but finally bears fruit. It is the Red Navy of the Soviet Union, made up of two battleships from the Northern Fleet. Their role isn’t really needed, but Stalin is keen on extending his influence. USN Battleships: Oklahoma, Nebraska; South Carolina, Delaware; New Mexico, Mississippi, Arkansas, Minnesota, New York, Texas Carriers: Ranger Light Carriers: Belleau Wood, San Jacinto Escort Carriers: Long Island, Nantucket, Belle Isle, Sangamon, Bogue, Santee, Copahee, Suwannee, Chenango, Carr, Core Heavy Cruisers: Pittsburgh, Augusta, Rockford, Groton, Knoxville, Ogden, Chester, Tuscaloosa Light Cruisers: York, Raleigh, Marblehead, Savannah, Little Rock, Bismarck, Phoenix, Santa Fe, Astoria, Chattanooga 36 Destroyers RN Battleships: Dragon, Trafalgar, Superb, Magnificent, Nelson, Rodney, HMSAS South Africa, HMSAS Good Hope, HMNS Newfoundland, HMCS America; Queen Elizabeth, Warspite, Valiant, Barham, Queen Victoria, Resolution Battlecruisers: King Richard I, King Henry V, King Alfred, Royal Arthur, OKP Jan Sobieski, BNP Georgios Averof Carriers: Albion, Bulwark, Courageous, Glorious Light Carriers: Perseus, Hector Escort Carriers: Bold, Dasher, Vindex, Citadel, Growler, Hunter, Campania, Nairana, Aurania Heavy Cruisers: Somerset, Lancaster, Cumberland, Monmouth, Drake, Ratcliffe, HMSAS Capetown, HMSAS Durban, OKP Krakow Light Cruisers: Avalon, Randernesse, Alexander, Galatea, Penelope, Aurora, Poseidon, Leonidas, Minerva, Juno, Arethusa, Minerva, HMSAS Johannesburg, HMSAS Bloemfontein Monitors: Roberts, Abercrombie, Wolseley, Gordon, Marshal Soult, Marshal Ney, Erebus, Terror, Prince Eugene, Prince Rupert, General Wolfe, Lord Clive 68 Destroyers Marine Royale Battleships: Gloire, Soleil Royale, Victoire, Majestueux, Superbe, Orient; Redoubtable, Conquerant; Agamemnon, Ajax, Ulysse, Sans Pareil Battlecruisers: Hercule, Annibal Carriers: Ocean, Suffren, Charles Martel, Brennus Heavy Cruisers: Lafayette, Rochambeau, Turrene, Magenta, Algerie, Morocco, Indochine, Tunisie, Senegal, Madagascar Light Cruisers: Victor Hugo, Dupuy de Lome, Jules Verne, Duguay-Trouin, Emile Bertin, La Motte-Picquet, Primauguet, d'Iberville, La Bourdonnais, Jauréguiberry, Vauquelin, D'Estrées, Maillé-Brézé, Du Chayla, Lansequenet 54 Destroyers In addition, there are ships from Mexico, Brazil, Argentina and Chile, as well as Comintern and Sovetskaya Rossiya. Other French ships are covering Spain and Sardinia. Simon No ships from the Netherlands, no Terrible Twins type of ships like OTL where gunboats Flores and Soemba took part in the landings of Sicily. There are Dutch gunboats involved among the lighter vessels, but the majority of the Dutch fleet is out in the Far East by the end of the year alongside the Grand Fleet and French Escadron d'Extrême-Orient or with the Home Fleet. |
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Post by simon darkshade on May 27, 2020 17:02:32 GMT
The last sections of 1942 will be the South Pacific Campaign of Ark Royal and Victorious and Grand Fleet Operations April-December. The latter will feature the fighting in some coverage of the Burma front, Carrier Operations off Sumatra, Northern Malaya (April-August), the Kra Campaign (September-December) and the build up for the invasion of Siam.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on May 27, 2020 17:06:07 GMT
The Turning of the Tide By the end of 1942, the tide of the war had begun to shift towards Allied victory, after the year had begun with such portent of disaster. The Royal Navy had begun the year as the most powerful navy in the world, yet by Christmas, the changing of the guard had definitely occurred and now the United States Navy was unquestionably the mightiest force on the seven seas. The Grand Fleet now gathered its strength once again at Singapore and in India for a new offensive against the Empire of Japan in conjunction with the United States Pacific Fleet what was to be the greatest pincer movement of the war. In the fighting of this hardest year of deep war, the aircraft carrier had been the indispensable weapon of the Royal Navy." The RN must have swallowed its pride went the US Navy surpassed them, ore have they always believed that the US was capable of surpassing them on many fronts. |
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Post by simon darkshade on May 27, 2020 17:23:08 GMT
It doesn’t really matter what the RN thinks; this is simply an objective assessment of the relative force strengths. This is an “in-universe” text with its own biases, similar to The History of the Tank, but it is written in 1964, long after any soreness over the changing of the guard has faded.
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stevep
Fleet admiral
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Post by stevep on May 27, 2020 21:16:52 GMT
simon darkshade , Thanks for clarifying over the Red navy. That would make a significant difference politically I suspect. Did they come from the Soviet Northern fleet as I can't see anything getting out of the Black Sea in wartime and would expect that the Baltic fleet has been truely trashed by this stage.
Interesting developments on the a/c and other weapons but couple of questions: a) Would Supermarine - or anyone else for that matter give an engine the same name as the a/c its going into? Sound a bit off and potential for confusion. Expect a Merlin replacement will go into other a/c as well but naming it Eagle as well seems a touch unlikely to me.
b) What sort of a/c would be using a 2500lb AP bomb? Is it something a CV a/c could use or would it be primarily by heavier land based units? Also thinking about it any development of guided missiles either by the allies or the Germans as OTL?
Steve
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Post by simon darkshade on May 28, 2020 7:41:41 GMT
Steve,
The Red Navy Mediterranean Squadron is an attempt to assert influence; it runs into the problem of the Soviets not reaching the Mediterranean and Adriatic, as Stalin and Stavka had thought would be the minimum that they would achieve. They did come from the Northern Fleet, as the Black Sea Fleet ends up sheltering in Batumi or running for Constantinople and the Baltic Fleet is pinned down in Kronstadt and Leningrad until the full breaking of the Siege of Leningrad in late 1943.
A.) Rolls Royce name the engine the Eagle after its Great War aeroengine. It goes into the successor to the Eagle. The Dark Earth RR Merlin fills the place of the @ Merlin and the Griffon, with 1600hp-2500hp over its service life. It is one of three late war engines along with the Napier Sabre and Bristol Centaurus and the first turboprops.
B.) The 2500lb bomb would be used by Buccaneer and Firedrake dive bombers, Spearfish torpedo bombers and Sea Mosquitoes with the fleet and everything large enough to take it on land. Guided missiles will come in time in a couple of versions, as well as some other interesting devices such as Toraplane, Doravane and of course Helmover.
Simon
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Post by simon darkshade on May 28, 2020 16:05:18 GMT
"With the exception of Malaya and Burma, Japan had achieved the main initial objectives by early 1942 and had neutralised the Grand Fleet of the Royal Navy as a decisive offensive force. However, it was unable to eliminate the last positions and forces of the British Empire in the Far East through direct assault and was also facing the increasing pressure of the recovering United States Navy across the Pacific. Intense discussions took place over the course of March amongst the members of the Imperial General Headquarters on the strategic priority for Japan in 1942, fixing upon the establishment of a firm defensive perimeter in the east and a build up of forces to push the Commonwealth forces back to India in the west. The movement of the Royal Navy's carrier forces to the Bay of Bengal served as a final trigger for this action, as it placed these vital assets beyond the immediate reach of the Combined Fleet. It was considered that the optimum means of achieving these aims in the short term would be through an oblique approach: the isolation and possible invasion of Australia. This would be carried out over the course of six months, after which time the IJN could prepare to execute its decades-old plan for the defeat of the advancing United States Navy through a process of gradual attritional battles through the Central Pacific utilising aircraft carriers, land-based bombers and submarines before a final decisive fleet battle at a time, place and circumstances of Japanese advantage.
The IJN South Seas Fleet had already taken New Britain during its initial sweeping offensive into the South Pacific in January 1942 and had landed substantial Imperial Japanese Army forces along the northern coast of New Guinea. This put Japanese forces in an optimum position to push down at take the remainder of New Guinea and occupy the key island chains that stood astride Australia and New Zealand's lifelines to the United States - the Solomon Islands, New Hebrides, Fiji and Samoa. Once this supply line was severed, Britain would be forced to redirect supplies, troops and ships away from its build-up in India and Malaya to the aid of its Commonwealth kith and kin, presenting an opportunity to eliminate its remaining naval power east of Suez. The IJN had presented an expansive plan for this concept to encompass the seizure of seizure of Northern Australia as a preventative measure. The Imperial Japanese Army was reticent to prepare full plans for an invasion of Australia, considering the troop and shipping requirements (some 20 divisions and 4.5 million tons at a minimum) being well beyond their actual capabilities, but supported a proposal by the Imperial Japanese Air Force for the neutralisation of Australian defences through a concentrated aerial campaign provided that its planned offensives in South East Asia and China received greater tactical air support.
The Australian and New Zealand governments had been calling for reinforcements of their increasing parlous position since the outbreak of war and, by the beginning of April, these calls could no longer be ignored, particularly in the face of signals intercepts indicating a gradual move of Japanese ships from Manila to Truk and Rabaul and Japanese intentions for the invasion of New Guinea. The Australia and New Zealand Stations had been unified as the ANZAC Squadron in January under the command of Admiral Sir John Crace and reinforced by USN cruisers and certain surviving units of the ABDAF Strike Force, but its sole capital ship was the new Australian battleship HMAS Commonwealth and the elderly carrier HMAS Albatross was not considered as a frontline unit. The Imperial War Cabinet concluded that there was a clear need for reinforcement of Commonwealth naval forces in the South Pacific. This lead to the dispatch of a squadron of the Grand Fleet from Singapore to Australia based around the aircraft carriers Ark Royal and Victorious and the battleships Australia, New Zealand, Hood, St. George and Prince of Wales, considered an acceptable reduction of forces given that Formidable and Indomitable would be available for service by early May and Leviathan's imminent arrival from the Mediterranean alongside the Dutch battleships De Zeven Provincien and Willem van Oranje. Additionally, two infantry divisions and a Royal Marine Division and two Spitfire wings would be redirected from India to Australia in a convoy escorted by the East Indies Squadron.
However, this major force for the defence of Allied position in the South Pacific would come from the United States Navy. The three carriers of Task Force 12, Enterprise, Wasp and Essex, escorted by Connecticut, Washington and Constellation, 6 cruisers and 18 destroyers had been engaged in the Doolittle Raid and were now returning to San Diego. Task Force 11 (Saratoga, North Carolina, 4 cruisers and 12 destroyers) was en route from Fiji to the new USN base in New Caledonia, Task Force 15 (Bonhomme Richard, Alabama, 3 cruisers and 9 destroyers) was covering a crucial convoy to New Zealand 400nm northeast of Samoa and Task Force 16 (Intrepid, Kearsarge, Michigan, Indiana, 10 cruisers and 36 destroyers) was operating from the still damaged base at Pearl Harbor in defence of the American position in the Central Pacific. In the South Pacific, Task Forces 17 and 18 (a total force of Yorktown, Hornet, South Dakota, Massachusetts, 6 cruisers and 25 destroyers) were on station in the Coral Sea, having recently conducted air raids against Japanese landings on the northern coast of New Guinea. The utilisation of super battleships in fast carrier task forces had already proven successful in the USN raids on the Gilberts and Marshall Islands earlier in 1942, ironically being driven by a lack of sufficient large fleet oilers to support the operation of separate battlesquadrons; the same logistical limitations and the question of the location of the main IJN battlefleet and carrier force kept the 9 older battleships of the US Pacific Fleet to San Diego for the time being as a defensive measure."
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