lordroel
Administrator
Member is Online
Posts: 67,984 
Likes: 49,385
|
Post by lordroel on May 20, 2020 16:15:01 GMT
The battle will not end up as a decisive one for either side, given the stakes and more significantly, the general technological level of advance. There is something of an impasse as of early 1942. But it will tilt to the Allies side from 1942 onward when they start outproducing the Japanese in everything. |
|
|
|
Post by simon darkshade on May 21, 2020 0:14:28 GMT
That much is guaranteed. I’ve already put up the 1942 ship building data, which is perhaps 12-18 months before the US juggernaut begins to start commissioning ships, but in terms of aircraft, tanks, guns and materiel, this will start to show sooner. Effectively, the Japanese find themselves in a two front war. Like Germany historically, the overwhelming part of their defeat will come on the “Eastern Front” in the Pacific.
|
|
stevep
Fleet admiral
Posts: 24,836
Likes: 13,224
|
Post by stevep on May 21, 2020 9:37:44 GMT
That much is guaranteed. I’ve already put up the 1942 ship building data, which is perhaps 12-18 months before the US juggernaut begins to start commissioning ships, but in terms of aircraft, tanks, guns and materiel, this will start to show sooner. Effectively, the Japanese find themselves in a two front war. Like Germany historically, the overwhelming part of their defeat will come on the “Eastern Front” in the Pacific.
I think it would be at least a 3 front war, like with Germany. The main attack may ultimately be by the US from the Pacific but they will take heavy losses in the south simply because their logistical problems will limit what they can get there and we know from other posts they get pushed all the way back. Also their fighting in China and with the Burma road still open the Chinese are going to get a lot more stuff sent to them so that front will not only tie up a lot of forces but be markedly harder than OTL.
Steve
|
|
lordroel
Administrator
Member is Online
Posts: 67,984
Likes: 49,385
|
Post by lordroel on May 21, 2020 9:48:34 GMT
That much is guaranteed. I’ve already put up the 1942 ship building data, which is perhaps 12-18 months before the US juggernaut begins to start commissioning ships, but in terms of aircraft, tanks, guns and materiel, this will start to show sooner. Effectively, the Japanese find themselves in a two front war. Like Germany historically, the overwhelming part of their defeat will come on the “Eastern Front” in the Pacific. A, found it on page 18 of this thread, the Japanese in 1942 had 4 carriers in construction, but the following years i presume they will fall back in production and delivery i presume compared on how many carriers the Allies can produce in a record time. |
|
stevep
Fleet admiral
Posts: 24,836
Likes: 13,224
|
Post by stevep on May 21, 2020 9:53:29 GMT
That much is guaranteed. I’ve already put up the 1942 ship building data, which is perhaps 12-18 months before the US juggernaut begins to start commissioning ships, but in terms of aircraft, tanks, guns and materiel, this will start to show sooner. Effectively, the Japanese find themselves in a two front war. Like Germany historically, the overwhelming part of their defeat will come on the “Eastern Front” in the Pacific. A, found it on page 18 of this thread, the Japanese in 1942 had 4 carriers in construction, but the following years i presume they will fall back in production and delivery i presume compared on how many carriers the Allies can produce in a record time.
No doubt. Even ignoring what the US will be pumping out Japan, unless massively different from OTL will have increasing difficulties with supplies of just about everything and bitter infighting between the army and navy as well.
|
|
lordroel
Administrator
Member is Online
Posts: 67,984
Likes: 49,385
|
Post by lordroel on May 21, 2020 9:56:48 GMT
A, found it on page 18 of this thread, the Japanese in 1942 had 4 carriers in construction, but the following years i presume they will fall back in production and delivery i presume compared on how many carriers the Allies can produce in a record time. No doubt. Even ignoring what the US will be pumping out Japan, unless massively different from OTL will have increasing difficulties with supplies of just about everything and bitter infighting between the army and navy as well.
Seems that in 1942 the United States was already working on 8 aircraft carriers, 12 Light Aircraft Carriers, 18 Escort Carriers and 18 Bogue-class carriers, and i doubt they had fully started production yet. |
|
|
|
Post by simon darkshade on May 21, 2020 14:29:59 GMT
Interesting points chaps.
China does constitute another front; I had been thinking of the two naval campaigns, but China does hold down a majority of the IJA and the IJAF (in conjunction with the Kwantung Army). In 1945, the US and British advances converge and end up deploying land forces in China, as was postulated by many (armchair) strategists during the war in @.
I’ll dig out the total wartime production figures to illustrate the situation:
1942
USN
4 South Dakota BBB
8 Essex CV
12 Independence CVL
18 CVE
23 CA (2 Wichita, 8 Baltimore; 4 Atlanta, 9 Cleveland)
84 DD (28 Gleaves, 56 Fletcher)
130 DE (59 Evarts, 71 Buckley)
98 FF (38 Asheville, 60 Tacoma)
103 PC
192 SC
62 SS (34 Tambor, 28 Gato)
RN
6 BB
4 CV
3 CVL
12 CVE (+ 11 Lend Lease)
24 CA (8 CA, 16 CL)
54 DD (18 Q/R, 18 O, 18 P)
36 DE
88 FF
32 SL
56 CR (+ 40 CW)
32 SS
IJN
4 BBB
4 CV
3 CVL
10 CA (4 CA, 6 CL)
28 DD
32 Kaibokan
40 SS
1943
USN:
6 Iowa BBB
8 Essex CV
49 CVE
4 Hawaii BC
35 CA (10 Baltimore; 20 Cleveland, 5 Atlanta)
122 DD (44 Gleaves, 78 Fletcher)
284 DE (115 Edsall, 76 Cannon, 93 Buckley)
120 FF (120 Tacoma)
187 PC
236 SC
87 SS (36 Gato, 51 Balao)
IJN
4 BBB
6 CV
3 CVL
9 CVE
4 BC
10 CA (4 CA, 6 CL)
42 DD
70 Kaibokan
42 SS
RN
8 CA
8 CVL
6 CVE ( 2 Castle, 4 Lusitania) (+ 19 Avenger Lend Lease)
74 DD (18 S/T, 18 U/V, 18 W/Z, 20 C)
54 DE (24 Hunt, 30 Bay)
86 FF (36 River, 50 Loch)
34 SL (34 Black Swan)
76 CR (76 Flower + 64 CW)
40 SS
1944
USN
6 Montana BBB
2 Midway CVB
8 Essex CV
2 Hawaii BC
24 CA (7 Baltimore, 8 Des Moines; 4 Cleveland, 5 Worcester)
134 DD (50 Fletcher, Sumner 42, Gearing 42)
217 DE (30 John C. Butler, 101 Rudderow, 33 Edsall, 53 Cannon)
74 FF (74 Tacoma)
165 PC
134 SC
83 SS (14 Gato, 69 Balao)
IJN
4 CV
2 BC
10 CA (4 CA, 6 CL)
12 CVE
49 DD
84 Kaibokan
40 SS
RN
2 Malta CVB
4 CVL
8 CA
4 CVE (+ 18 Ruler Lend Lease)
60 DD (28 C, 16 Weapon, 16 Battle)
58 DE (26 Bay, 32 Colony)
60 FF (14 Loch, 46 Castle FF)
30 SS (30 A)
1945
USN
6 Midway CVB
13 CA (8 Des Moines CA, 5 Worcester CL)
128 DD (26 Sumner, 102 Gearing)
99 DE (72 John C. Butler, 27 Rudderow)
44 SS (20 Balao, 24 Tench class)
RN
2 Malta CVB
48 DD (48 Battle, 8 Weapon)
18 FF (18 Castle)
18 SS
(18 Amphion)
(8 Ruler CVE Lend Lease)
IJN
2 CA
2 CV
6 CVE
25 DD
56 Kaibokan
27 SS
|
|
lordroel
Administrator
Member is Online
Posts: 67,984
Likes: 49,385
|
Post by lordroel on May 21, 2020 14:39:13 GMT
Interesting points chaps. China does constitute another front; I had been thinking of the two naval campaigns, but China does hold down a majority of the IJA and the IJAF (in conjunction with the Kwantung Army). In 1945, the US and British advances converge and end up deploying land forces in China, as was postulated by many (armchair) strategists during the war in @. I’ll dig out the total wartime production figures to illustrate the situation: 1942 USN 4 South Dakota BBB 8 Essex CV 12 Independence CVL 18 CVE 26 CA (2 Wichita, 8 Baltimore; 4 Atlanta, 9 Cleveland) 84 DD (28 Gleaves, 56 Fletcher) 130 DE (59 Evarts, 71 Buckley) 98 FF (38 Asheville, 60 Tacoma) 103 PC 192 SC 62 SS (34 Tambor, 28 Gato) Was there a reason why you separated the 18 Escort Carriers and 18 Bogue-class carriers in your page 18 post, the Bogue-class is also classified as escort carrier, ore is it a different carrier in the Darkearth verse. |
|
|
|
Post by simon darkshade on May 21, 2020 14:43:00 GMT
I didn't. The 18 escort carriers were all Bogue class vessels. The second entry simply refers to the ship class, similar to the differentiation between the total number of cruisers and destroyers and the classes that make them up.
|
|
lordroel
Administrator
Member is Online
Posts: 67,984
Likes: 49,385
|
Post by lordroel on May 21, 2020 14:45:47 GMT
I didn't. The 18 escort carriers were all Bogue class vessels. The second entry simply refers to the ship class, similar to the differentiation between the total number of cruisers and destroyers and the classes that make them up. Thanks for the explanation. |
|
|
|
Post by comradedave on May 21, 2020 16:15:28 GMT
Interesting points chaps. China does constitute another front; I had been thinking of the two naval campaigns, but China does hold down a majority of the IJA and the IJAF (in conjunction with the Kwantung Army). In 1945, the US and British advances converge and end up deploying land forces in China, as was postulated by many (armchair) strategists during the war in @. I’ll dig out the total wartime production figures to illustrate the situation: 1942USN4 South Dakota BBB 8 Essex CV 12 Independence CVL 18 CVE 23 CA (2 Wichita, 8 Baltimore; 4 Atlanta, 9 Cleveland) 84 DD (28 Gleaves, 56 Fletcher) 130 DE (59 Evarts, 71 Buckley) 98 FF (38 Asheville, 60 Tacoma) 103 PC 192 SC 62 SS (34 Tambor, 28 Gato) RN
6 BB 4 CV 3 CVL 12 CVE (+ 11 Lend Lease) 24 CA (8 CA, 16 CL) 54 DD (18 Q/R, 18 O, 18 P) 36 DE 88 FF 32 SL 56 CR (+ 40 CW) 32 SS IJN4 BBB 4 CV 3 CVL 10 CA (4 CA, 6 CL) 28 DD 32 Kaibokan 40 SS 1943USN:
6 Iowa BBB 8 Essex CV 49 CVE 4 Hawaii BC 35 CA (10 Baltimore; 20 Cleveland, 5 Atlanta) 122 DD (44 Gleaves, 78 Fletcher) 284 DE (115 Edsall, 76 Cannon, 93 Buckley) 120 FF (120 Tacoma) 187 PC 236 SC 87 SS (36 Gato, 51 Balao) IJN4 BBB 6 CV 3 CVL 9 CVE 4 BC 10 CA (4 CA, 6 CL) 42 DD 70 Kaibokan 42 SS RN8 CA 8 CVL 6 CVE ( 2 Castle, 4 Lusitania) (+ 19 Avenger Lend Lease) 74 DD (18 S/T, 18 U/V, 18 W/Z, 20 C) 54 DE (24 Hunt, 30 Bay) 86 FF (36 River, 50 Loch) 34 SL (34 Black Swan) 76 CR (76 Flower + 64 CW) 40 SS 1944USN6 Montana BBB 2 Midway CVB 8 Essex CV 2 Hawaii BC 24 CA (7 Baltimore, 8 Des Moines; 4 Cleveland, 5 Worcester) 134 DD (50 Fletcher, Sumner 42, Gearing 42) 217 DE (30 John C. Butler, 101 Rudderow, 33 Edsall, 53 Cannon) 74 FF (74 Tacoma) 165 PC 134 SC 83 SS (14 Gato, 69 Balao) IJN4 CV 2 BC 10 CA (4 CA, 6 CL) 12 CVE 49 DD 84 Kaibokan 40 SS RN2 Malta CVB 4 CVL 8 CA 4 CVE (+ 18 Ruler Lend Lease) 60 DD (28 C, 16 Weapon, 16 Battle) 58 DE (26 Bay, 32 Colony) 60 FF (14 Loch, 46 Castle FF) 30 SS (30 A) 1945USN6 Midway CVB 13 CA (8 Des Moines CA, 5 Worcester CL) 128 DD (26 Sumner, 102 Gearing) 99 DE (72 John C. Butler, 27 Rudderow) 44 SS (20 Balao, 24 Tench class) RN
2 Malta CVB 48 DD (48 Battle, 8 Weapon) 18 FF (18 Castle) 18 SS (18 Amphion) (8 Ruler CVE Lend Lease) IJN2 CA 2 CV 6 CVE 25 DD 56 Kaibokan 27 SS I imagine Navy days will be a delight for the next few Post war years considering the size of the Royal navy’s Build Program  would this enlarged build program also mean that a much bigger fleet train can be built for British operations in the Far East? As OTL a lack of available supply and support ships severely hamstrung British efforts against Japan towards the end of the war. Comrade Dave. |
|
|
|
Post by simon darkshade on May 21, 2020 17:27:25 GMT
That is quite fine.
And now, for good measure:
1941
RN
6 BBB (Vanguard, Majestic, Triumph, Agincourt, Dragon, Trafalgar)
4 BC (Orion, Neptune, Jupiter, Ajax)
2 CV (Ocean, Leviathan)
4 CVL (Hercules, Achilles, Ethalion, Mars)
1 CVE
12 CA (Ceylon, Uganda, Aden, Barbados; Euryalus, Europa, Hermione, Naiad, Niobe, Phoebe, Scylla, Sirius)
2 PB (Goliath, Hannibal)
32 DD
20 DE
24 FF
24 SL
53 CR
29 SS
USN
4 BBB (2 Washington, 2 South Dakota)
4 Essex CV
8 CA (4 Wichita CA, 3 Cleveland CL, 1 Atlanta CLAA)
36 DD (24 Gleaves, 12 Benson)
14 DE
25 SS
IJN
2 BBB (Shinano, Kai)
4 CV (Hiyo, Junyo, Shoho, Shinyo)
2 CVL (Taiho, Mizuho)
11 CA (5 Agano CL, 4 Nantai CB, 2 Ibuki CA)
27 DD
18 Kaibokan
18 SS
1940
RN
4 BBB (Conqueror, Thunderer, Iron Duke, Black Prince)
5 CV (Pegasus, Unicorn, Argus, Indefatigable, Implacable)
1 CVL (Theseus)
11 CVE
16 CA (Minotaur, Challenger, Powerful, Terrible; Kenya, Mauritius, Nigeria, Trinidad; Dido, Astraea, Bellona, Bonaventure, Charybdis, Cleopatra, Danae, Diadem)
2 PBB (Leopard, Arrogant)
32 DD
16 DE
24 FF
18 SL
27 CR
28 SS
USN
4 Washington BBB
5 CA (2 Wichita, 3 Charleston)
37 DD (6 Gleaves, 12 Benson, 19 Sims)
15 SS
IJN
2 BBB (Yamato, Musashi)
3 CV (Shokaku, Zuikaku, Kairyu)
2 CVL (Zuiho, Kaiyo)
7 CA (5 Agano CL, 2 Ibuki CA)
20 DD
10 Kaibokan
12 SS
|
|
|
|
Post by simon darkshade on May 21, 2020 17:30:19 GMT
Interesting points chaps. China does constitute another front; I had been thinking of the two naval campaigns, but China does hold down a majority of the IJA and the IJAF (in conjunction with the Kwantung Army). In 1945, the US and British advances converge and end up deploying land forces in China, as was postulated by many (armchair) strategists during the war in @. I’ll dig out the total wartime production figures to illustrate the situation: 1942USN4 South Dakota BBB 8 Essex CV 12 Independence CVL 18 CVE 23 CA (2 Wichita, 8 Baltimore; 4 Atlanta, 9 Cleveland) 84 DD (28 Gleaves, 56 Fletcher) 130 DE (59 Evarts, 71 Buckley) 98 FF (38 Asheville, 60 Tacoma) 103 PC 192 SC 62 SS (34 Tambor, 28 Gato) RN
6 BB 4 CV 3 CVL 12 CVE (+ 11 Lend Lease) 24 CA (8 CA, 16 CL) 54 DD (18 Q/R, 18 O, 18 P) 36 DE 88 FF 32 SL 56 CR (+ 40 CW) 32 SS IJN4 BBB 4 CV 3 CVL 10 CA (4 CA, 6 CL) 28 DD 32 Kaibokan 40 SS 1943USN:
6 Iowa BBB 8 Essex CV 49 CVE 4 Hawaii BC 35 CA (10 Baltimore; 20 Cleveland, 5 Atlanta) 122 DD (44 Gleaves, 78 Fletcher) 284 DE (115 Edsall, 76 Cannon, 93 Buckley) 120 FF (120 Tacoma) 187 PC 236 SC 87 SS (36 Gato, 51 Balao) IJN4 BBB 6 CV 3 CVL 9 CVE 4 BC 10 CA (4 CA, 6 CL) 42 DD 70 Kaibokan 42 SS RN8 CA 8 CVL 6 CVE ( 2 Castle, 4 Lusitania) (+ 19 Avenger Lend Lease) 74 DD (18 S/T, 18 U/V, 18 W/Z, 20 C) 54 DE (24 Hunt, 30 Bay) 86 FF (36 River, 50 Loch) 34 SL (34 Black Swan) 76 CR (76 Flower + 64 CW) 40 SS 1944USN6 Montana BBB 2 Midway CVB 8 Essex CV 2 Hawaii BC 24 CA (7 Baltimore, 8 Des Moines; 4 Cleveland, 5 Worcester) 134 DD (50 Fletcher, Sumner 42, Gearing 42) 217 DE (30 John C. Butler, 101 Rudderow, 33 Edsall, 53 Cannon) 74 FF (74 Tacoma) 165 PC 134 SC 83 SS (14 Gato, 69 Balao) IJN4 CV 2 BC 10 CA (4 CA, 6 CL) 12 CVE 49 DD 84 Kaibokan 40 SS RN2 Malta CVB 4 CVL 8 CA 4 CVE (+ 18 Ruler Lend Lease) 60 DD (28 C, 16 Weapon, 16 Battle) 58 DE (26 Bay, 32 Colony) 60 FF (14 Loch, 46 Castle FF) 30 SS (30 A) 1945USN6 Midway CVB 13 CA (8 Des Moines CA, 5 Worcester CL) 128 DD (26 Sumner, 102 Gearing) 99 DE (72 John C. Butler, 27 Rudderow) 44 SS (20 Balao, 24 Tench class) RN
2 Malta CVB 48 DD (48 Battle, 8 Weapon) 18 FF (18 Castle) 18 SS (18 Amphion) (8 Ruler CVE Lend Lease) IJN2 CA 2 CV 6 CVE 25 DD 56 Kaibokan 27 SS I imagine Navy days will be a delight for the next few Post war years considering the size of the Royal navy’s Build Program would this enlarged build program also mean that a much bigger fleet train can be built for British operations in the Far East? As OTL a lack of available supply and support ships severely hamstrung British efforts against Japan towards the end of the war. Comrade Dave. Comrade Dave, Most definitely! Given the focus of naval rearmament on the Singapore Strategy, the build up has also involved support ships of all descriptions. Simon |
|
|
|
Post by comradedave on May 21, 2020 18:58:13 GMT
Ah Excelllent, I recall being told the most laborious task for the sailors at Navy days was always getting the children off of the ship! Much of the Royal Navy’s support fleet built during the war was often merchant construction refitting for naval service, would the Dark Earth Royal Navy Follow a similar method? Comrade Dave. |
|
|
|
Post by simon darkshade on May 22, 2020 2:35:33 GMT
Comrade Dave,
The DE Royal Fleet Auxiliary and RN is fair bit better developed, given the requirements of range, the long term planning and the earlier naval rearmament.
Dedicated Construction
Tankers/Oilers: 16 Wave class oilers completed between 1940 and 1943, 8 Ranger class tankers built 1938-1940, 35 Dale class oilers built 1936-1940, 12 Gold class tankers built 1928-1935 and 20 Ol class tankers built 1918-1923.
Combat Stores Ships: 12 Fort class built 1940-1943, 6 Bacchus class built 1936-1940
Maintenance and Repair Ships: 4 Resource class built 1928-1934, 4 Faithful class built 1936-1940, 4 Artifex class built 1940-1943; 4 Abundance class built 1941-1944, 24 Beachy Head class built 1942-1945
(+ 8 Destroyer Tenders, 4 Submarine Depot Ships, 3 Torpedo Boat Tenders, 3 Seaplane Tenders, 12 Salvage Ships)
Merchant Conversions
Amenities Ships: 5 Menestheus class
Combat Supply Ships: 42 Empire ships
Ammunition Ships: 8 Vesuvius class
General Stores Issue Ships: 20 Luna class
Maintenance Ships: 17 Empire ships
|
|
would this enlarged build program also mean that a much bigger fleet train can be built for British operations in the Far East? As OTL a lack of available supply and support ships severely hamstrung British efforts against Japan towards the end of the war.