lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Dec 29, 2019 10:36:25 GMT
Yes, most certainly. Not every wizard is associated with the government/national Ministries/academies/circles/organisations, but in wartime, magical expertise was treated the same as scientists in WW1 and WW2 - national assets. Now i see a image of a World War I cruiser ore other warship that has its front turret removed so that it can be used as a wizard platform for combat against other ships. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Dec 29, 2019 10:50:03 GMT
Question just occurred to me. No need to answer now as I'm turning in shortly but has magic kept pace with technology or is it being left behind somewhat? I.e. as spreading knowledge has allowed 'mundane' weapons to get far more powerful are spells more sophisticated, easier to use as knowledge spreads, able to rely on greater power sources or basically unchanged since say the medieval period?
Yes and no. The development of modern magic occurred during the Arcane Revolution of 17th and 18th centuries, accompanying many other rapid developments of society. The gap between ordinary weapons and magic has narrowed considerably, even by 1914, at least insofar as immediate battlefield/tactical employment. Here is a little extract from another work yet to come on the matter: "Right. What do you suggest? Magic?”
Flint shook his head slightly, troubled by where the conversation seemed headed. “Magic. I don’t like having much truck with magic. We don’t live in a world of miracles anymore. If you had seen the things I have seen...”
Gallows leaned forward abruptly, his eyes glowing with an intense light as he spoke quietly.
“Allow me to stop you there, I pray. Your next point would be something along the lines that all magic is slowing fading to obsolescence in a world of technical marvels, where the rankest neophyte can use a gun or fire a howitzer or press a button. That the jet plane, the rocket, the atom bomb or half a hundred other marvels will render magic redundant, as useless as a hedgewizard against the Red Death.
After all, we live in an age of science, a veritable epoch of marvels. Who needs a mere numerologist or aphophenist when the modern steam powered analytical engine or the newfangled mechanical computing machine can deliver the answer to your every question in less than an hour? Who needs a transportation mage or technomancer when you can fly to Australia in an aeroplane in six hours? What is it that Kennedy chap across in America keeps saying on the telescreen about the Orion rocketship he would build if he wins in September– Saturn by ’67?
You are not one of the Technists, are you?”
“No, Gallows, it isn’t that. I’m no Arkist, merely a thorough sorcerous skeptic. Take the Church, for example. The last time an ordinary English cleric – not an Archbishop or Pope - was able to heal someone? 1893. The last monk or priest of ours to who could wield anything beyond minor battle spells? The Crimean War.”
“What of you, Flint. You blasted that undead abomination back to the Pit with your crucifix.”
“I…I don’t know what I did there. I swear by the blood of the martyrs, I do not know how I did it. I certainly couldn’t do it again. I don’t know if I want to do it again. Anyway, the last one before me who turned the undead was in the 1825! The days when twenty priests and Templars could take on the Aztec Empire are long gone.”
“Have a little faith, Brother. Have a little faith. We wizards are slightly less limited than our friends in the Church. We always have been, back through all the great mages of England – Merlin, Taliesin, Bacon, Dee, Shakespeare and Dickens.”
“Alcuin Spong and his council the equivalents of Merlin or Dickens? They are Archmagi, I’ll grant you. But they are bureaucrats.”
Indeed, Brother John. I am not. I earned my wand at sixteen and my staff at twenty. I have climbed all five Towers of Art and in Avalon and Camelot trod the twenty Circles of Lore. I have made my Talisman, read the Key of Solomon and gazed into the Eye of Argon.”
“Yes, I do understand you chaps have a rather long degree process.”
“I have called mile long bolts of lightning out of a clear sky, hurled searing fireballs the size of hills across the North Sea with nary but a word and frozen battalions of fear with blasts of frost on Midsummer morn. I have smashed castles, turned back the tide and bought towns to ruin by harnessing the tremors of the earth, then created cities of shining light and streams of darkest shade in their place.“
“Battle magic. Mere elementalism.”
“I can turn the spells, arrows, bombs and dragonbreath aside and shield entire cities from sight and harm. I can stop a speeding bullet with my mind and walk through the fires of the atom. I can quaff acid, nibble poison and even stand Army food. I have laid mountains low in the morning and summoned legions of iron to build them back again before tea.
I charm, I find, I see.
I can walk on moonlight rays into the heaviest defended prison in the world, extract a princess and fly back across the ocean sea on wings of shadow leaving a lifelike simulacrum and an insulting note. I have weaved gates to Mars in a heartbeat. I can turn lead into gold, call up the ancient dead and foulest demon alike, take on the shape of any man or any beast and make forests sing.
I have built, I have weaved, I have dreamed.
I have built up the minds of men and freed them from the tortured dreams of centuries. I have drunk from streams never seen by man and walked the purple skies of ages yet to come. I have ridden the winds of time to bring back hope when all seemed lost and held up the walls of this world and others against those who would see the long night fall.
I have saved.
Now, let’s see some little bugger with a chemistry set do that.”
Interesting thanks. So religious based magic seems to be declining but non-religious magic in the right hands is still very, very potent - and in the wrong hands equally so  . Not sure of the name of that 3rd speaker but he sounds very formidable and also very well traveled in time and space. Although the idea of time traveling mages suggests that in a real crisis you could see some of those great mages from different ages coming together!
Of course bureaucrats can still be very powerful, especially if their subtle magic users who therefore tend to get overlooked by opponents. However love the idea of Shakespeare and Dickens as powerful mages.  I also love the understatement of the intrusion. "Yes, I do understand you chaps have a rather long degree process" and the last phase from the master mage. 
Steve
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Post by simon darkshade on Dec 29, 2019 10:52:18 GMT
That wouldn't really be that efficient, given that the range of various battle magic is rather less than naval artillery, that it is limited by the capacity of the wizard and that destroying a wizard would be a much greater cost to a nation than losing a turret.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Dec 29, 2019 11:00:35 GMT
That wouldn't really be that efficient, given that the range of various battle magic is rather less than naval artillery, that it is limited by the capacity of the wizard and that destroying a wizard would be a much greater cost to a nation than losing a turret. Okay that makes sense. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Dec 29, 2019 11:05:06 GMT
That wouldn't really be that efficient, given that the range of various battle magic is rather less than naval artillery, that it is limited by the capacity of the wizard and that destroying a wizard would be a much greater cost to a nation than losing a turret.
True but if he's subtle and seeks to operate at a safe distance from really powerful forces then unless there is another mage to detect him it could still be very effective. Albeit that the character in the quote does could be blowing his own trumpet a lot.
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Post by simon darkshade on Dec 29, 2019 11:10:44 GMT
Yes, subtle employment of battle magic leads to better results all round.
Dr. Simon Gallows, whilst blowing his own trumpet, is arguably in three the most powerful wizard in Britain as of 1960 and in the top ten most powerful in the world. When they are capable, they are very capable.
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Post by simon darkshade on Dec 29, 2019 11:16:33 GMT
Yes and no. The development of modern magic occurred during the Arcane Revolution of 17th and 18th centuries, accompanying many other rapid developments of society. The gap between ordinary weapons and magic has narrowed considerably, even by 1914, at least insofar as immediate battlefield/tactical employment. Here is a little extract from another work yet to come on the matter: "Right. What do you suggest? Magic?”
Flint shook his head slightly, troubled by where the conversation seemed headed. “Magic. I don’t like having much truck with magic. We don’t live in a world of miracles anymore. If you had seen the things I have seen...”
Gallows leaned forward abruptly, his eyes glowing with an intense light as he spoke quietly.
“Allow me to stop you there, I pray. Your next point would be something along the lines that all magic is slowing fading to obsolescence in a world of technical marvels, where the rankest neophyte can use a gun or fire a howitzer or press a button. That the jet plane, the rocket, the atom bomb or half a hundred other marvels will render magic redundant, as useless as a hedgewizard against the Red Death.
After all, we live in an age of science, a veritable epoch of marvels. Who needs a mere numerologist or aphophenist when the modern steam powered analytical engine or the newfangled mechanical computing machine can deliver the answer to your every question in less than an hour? Who needs a transportation mage or technomancer when you can fly to Australia in an aeroplane in six hours? What is it that Kennedy chap across in America keeps saying on the telescreen about the Orion rocketship he would build if he wins in September– Saturn by ’67?
You are not one of the Technists, are you?”
“No, Gallows, it isn’t that. I’m no Arkist, merely a thorough sorcerous skeptic. Take the Church, for example. The last time an ordinary English cleric – not an Archbishop or Pope - was able to heal someone? 1893. The last monk or priest of ours to who could wield anything beyond minor battle spells? The Crimean War.”
“What of you, Flint. You blasted that undead abomination back to the Pit with your crucifix.”
“I…I don’t know what I did there. I swear by the blood of the martyrs, I do not know how I did it. I certainly couldn’t do it again. I don’t know if I want to do it again. Anyway, the last one before me who turned the undead was in the 1825! The days when twenty priests and Templars could take on the Aztec Empire are long gone.”
“Have a little faith, Brother. Have a little faith. We wizards are slightly less limited than our friends in the Church. We always have been, back through all the great mages of England – Merlin, Taliesin, Bacon, Dee, Shakespeare and Dickens.”
“Alcuin Spong and his council the equivalents of Merlin or Dickens? They are Archmagi, I’ll grant you. But they are bureaucrats.”
Indeed, Brother John. I am not. I earned my wand at sixteen and my staff at twenty. I have climbed all five Towers of Art and in Avalon and Camelot trod the twenty Circles of Lore. I have made my Talisman, read the Key of Solomon and gazed into the Eye of Argon.”
“Yes, I do understand you chaps have a rather long degree process.”
“I have called mile long bolts of lightning out of a clear sky, hurled searing fireballs the size of hills across the North Sea with nary but a word and frozen battalions of fear with blasts of frost on Midsummer morn. I have smashed castles, turned back the tide and bought towns to ruin by harnessing the tremors of the earth, then created cities of shining light and streams of darkest shade in their place.“
“Battle magic. Mere elementalism.”
“I can turn the spells, arrows, bombs and dragonbreath aside and shield entire cities from sight and harm. I can stop a speeding bullet with my mind and walk through the fires of the atom. I can quaff acid, nibble poison and even stand Army food. I have laid mountains low in the morning and summoned legions of iron to build them back again before tea.
I charm, I find, I see.
I can walk on moonlight rays into the heaviest defended prison in the world, extract a princess and fly back across the ocean sea on wings of shadow leaving a lifelike simulacrum and an insulting note. I have weaved gates to Mars in a heartbeat. I can turn lead into gold, call up the ancient dead and foulest demon alike, take on the shape of any man or any beast and make forests sing.
I have built, I have weaved, I have dreamed.
I have built up the minds of men and freed them from the tortured dreams of centuries. I have drunk from streams never seen by man and walked the purple skies of ages yet to come. I have ridden the winds of time to bring back hope when all seemed lost and held up the walls of this world and others against those who would see the long night fall.
I have saved.
Now, let’s see some little bugger with a chemistry set do that.”
Interesting thanks. So religious based magic seems to be declining but non-religious magic in the right hands is still very, very potent - and in the wrong hands equally so . Not sure of the name of that 3rd speaker but he sounds very formidable and also very well traveled in time and space. Although the idea of time traveling mages suggests that in a real crisis you could see some of those great mages from different ages coming together!
Of course bureaucrats can still be very powerful, especially if their subtle magic users who therefore tend to get overlooked by opponents. However love the idea of Shakespeare and Dickens as powerful mages. I also love the understatement of the intrusion. "Yes, I do understand you chaps have a rather long degree process" and the last phase from the master mage.
Steve
Steve, You are most welcome. Holy magic or that based on religion has been declining since the 1700s, related to general faith and the Enlightenment, even though Dark Earth is rather more religious than Earth. Dr. Simon Gallows is one of the main characters in that work, The Red Shadow, and he is very, very good at what he does. His references to time travel are part hyperbole and part true, but there are very strict conditions that have to be observed when going down that path to avoid extremely troublesome paradoxes. The bureaucratic wizards are my equivalent to the high ranking clergy of the time, who often rose in the ranks due to politics and the right contacts rather than strength of belief, piety and faith. Promotion in the Ministry of Magic is not necessarily connected to arcane power, but political power. Making some of the great figures in English (and indeed in the history of other countries) into wizards was something I had fun with. I am glad you like the turns of phrase; I really did have fun writing that passage back in 2015. Simon |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Dec 29, 2019 11:21:34 GMT
Interesting thanks. So religious based magic seems to be declining but non-religious magic in the right hands is still very, very potent - and in the wrong hands equally so . Not sure of the name of that 3rd speaker but he sounds very formidable and also very well traveled in time and space. Although the idea of time traveling mages suggests that in a real crisis you could see some of those great mages from different ages coming together!
Of course bureaucrats can still be very powerful, especially if their subtle magic users who therefore tend to get overlooked by opponents. However love the idea of Shakespeare and Dickens as powerful mages. I also love the understatement of the intrusion. "Yes, I do understand you chaps have a rather long degree process" and the last phase from the master mage.
Steve
Steve, You are most welcome. Holy magic or that based on religion has been declining since the 1700s, related to general faith and the Enlightenment, even though Dark Earth is rather more religious than Earth. Dr. Simon Gallows is one of the main characters in that work, The Red Shadow, and he is very, very good at what he does. His references to time travel are part hyperbole and part true, but there are very strict conditions that have to be observed when going down that path to avoid extremely troublesome paradoxes. The bureaucratic wizards are my equivalent to the high ranking clergy of the time, who often rose in the ranks due to politics and the right contacts rather than strength of belief, piety and faith. Promotion in the Ministry of Magic is not necessarily connected to arcane power, but political power. Making some of the great figures in English (and indeed in the history of other countries) into wizards was something I had fun with. I am glad you like the turns of phrase; I really did have fun writing that passage back in 2015. Simon
Ah I though Gallows was one of the other two characters. My mistake. Also realised there would be major restrictions on time travel.
The problems in the Ministry of Magic sounds rather like that suffered in the Harry Potter version.  Or simply any large establishment which automatically gets bureaucratic over time.  |
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Post by simon darkshade on Dec 29, 2019 11:39:19 GMT
On the matter of magic, a few other pieces may help your understanding:
"Magic has never really left the world here. It bloomed in the Classical world, declined in the Dark Ages and then hit a high point of relative power in the High Middle Ages. As the Industrial Age has blossomed, magic has become less common, more misunderstood and underestimated and comparatively less powerful or even outdated on a battlefield level.
A chap hurling fireballs and lightning bolts about from half a mile or more away can defeat a small army with impunity up until the period when artillery and rifles outrange him. After that, he can still do a lot of damage, but cannot simply blast away. A well-rounded wizard can of course do a lot more with the right combination of protection, illusion, enchantment, conjuration and transmutation spells as well as battle magics. As of the Second World War, building, fueling and arming a hundred fighter-bombers such as P-47s or Tempests and training the pilots costs a lot less in time and effort than it would for a wizard to go through the equivalent of high school, college, post-graduate school, doctoral studies and 5-10 years of high level research. This series of stories, the Korean War and the Red Shadow are all in the era when the greatest utility of a wizard is more than just the walking equivalent of a regiment of artillery."
"The general term used for the profession/calling in question is 'wizard', but it is also considered as a title for a certain level of proficiency; it is analogous to the word 'commander' which can be a naval rank or a general title.
Apprentice; Adept; Wizard; Sorceror; Mage; Archmage
In Britain, there were a total of 1121 wizards at the start of World War 2, of whom 291 were apprentices or students, 389 low level Adepts, 256 were full Wizards, 103 were Sorcerers, 64 were Mages and 18 were Archmages. This was the result of an intense programme of training and searching out talent for the better part of 50 years. Not all were proficient in combat spells, high magic or the arts of creation, being academics, sages or specialists in obscure areas."
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Post by simon darkshade on Dec 29, 2019 11:44:22 GMT
Steve, You are most welcome. Holy magic or that based on religion has been declining since the 1700s, related to general faith and the Enlightenment, even though Dark Earth is rather more religious than Earth. Dr. Simon Gallows is one of the main characters in that work, The Red Shadow, and he is very, very good at what he does. His references to time travel are part hyperbole and part true, but there are very strict conditions that have to be observed when going down that path to avoid extremely troublesome paradoxes. The bureaucratic wizards are my equivalent to the high ranking clergy of the time, who often rose in the ranks due to politics and the right contacts rather than strength of belief, piety and faith. Promotion in the Ministry of Magic is not necessarily connected to arcane power, but political power. Making some of the great figures in English (and indeed in the history of other countries) into wizards was something I had fun with. I am glad you like the turns of phrase; I really did have fun writing that passage back in 2015. Simon
Ah I though Gallows was one of the other two characters. My mistake. Also realised there would be major restrictions on time travel.
The problems in the Ministry of Magic sounds rather like that suffered in the Harry Potter version. Or simply any large establishment which automatically gets bureaucratic over time. The first line is from the main character, Sir Charles Ratcliffe, Sovereign's Champion and Britain's finest adventurer. The other two major characters in that conversation are Brother John Flint, a warrior priest of the Church of England, and Dr. Simon Gallows. Their other companions in their quest to uncover who is trying to cause World War 3 is Sir Jingles Mandeville, a four foot tall albino cat, a daring damsel adventuress and a dashing NASA astronaut/secret agent. I haven't posted it here as I want to try and finish it first, then rewrite the early chapters to fit what the world has become since I started writing it in 2008. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Dec 30, 2019 10:47:58 GMT
On the matter of magic, a few other pieces may help your understanding: "Magic has never really left the world here. It bloomed in the Classical world, declined in the Dark Ages and then hit a high point of relative power in the High Middle Ages. As the Industrial Age has blossomed, magic has become less common, more misunderstood and underestimated and comparatively less powerful or even outdated on a battlefield level. A chap hurling fireballs and lightning bolts about from half a mile or more away can defeat a small army with impunity up until the period when artillery and rifles outrange him. After that, he can still do a lot of damage, but cannot simply blast away. A well-rounded wizard can of course do a lot more with the right combination of protection, illusion, enchantment, conjuration and transmutation spells as well as battle magics. As of the Second World War, building, fueling and arming a hundred fighter-bombers such as P-47s or Tempests and training the pilots costs a lot less in time and effort than it would for a wizard to go through the equivalent of high school, college, post-graduate school, doctoral studies and 5-10 years of high level research. This series of stories, the Korean War and the Red Shadow are all in the era when the greatest utility of a wizard is more than just the walking equivalent of a regiment of artillery." "The general term used for the profession/calling in question is 'wizard', but it is also considered as a title for a certain level of proficiency; it is analogous to the word 'commander' which can be a naval rank or a general title. Apprentice; Adept; Wizard; Sorceror; Mage; Archmage In Britain, there were a total of 1121 wizards at the start of World War 2, of whom 291 were apprentices or students, 389 low level Adepts, 256 were full Wizards, 103 were Sorcerers, 64 were Mages and 18 were Archmages. This was the result of an intense programme of training and searching out talent for the better part of 50 years. Not all were proficient in combat spells, high magic or the arts of creation, being academics, sages or specialists in obscure areas."
Very useful, thanks. I suspect by WWI and later the best use of such wizards is increasingly in more subtle areas. Information gathering and correspondingly camouflage, deception and possibly sabotage, possibly creation of supplies and work in aiding manufacturing in some areas and also possibly assassination, although there may be restrictions on the later. Either by international agreement or some sort of wizard's code as that could easily slip down a very dark path.
One factor with Britain is, especially in the DE universe, it can probably call on a lot of wizards from across the empire, which as well as adding numbers could also include a lot of different types of magic, both enabling some surprises for any opponent and also a general broadening of the knowledge of all the wizards working for the empire.
Steve
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Post by simon darkshade on Dec 30, 2019 11:22:13 GMT
Steve,
They were used in a lot of subtle support missions as you outline, but also for large scale battle magic when it was considered worthwhile by the Chiefs of Staff Committee.
For example, of the 18 British archmages in the Second World War, 8 were involved in highly secret magical construction projects (akin to Tube Alloys and responsible for items such as the Sunstone but also air defence enchantments and very powerful high magics); 4 were attached to the field armies eventually committed to Overlord, where they lead circles of battle wizards; and the remaining 6 were engaged in research, magical augmentation of conventional weapons and home defence.
They were augmented by wizards from the Dominions, particularly Canada, but the South Africans concentrated on Africa and the Mediterranean and the Australians and New Zealanders were primarily engaged in the Far East and Pacific.
When used as battlefield weapons of raw destruction, they could be extremely decisive, just like dragons, but they were carefully husbanded.
The Adepts and Apprentices primarily focussed on research and training and home defence respectively. The Wizards, Sorcerers and Mages were deployed on various roles, ranging from ASW spells when attached to Western Approaches Command, civil defence, research and development, countering Nazi magical attack attempts, preventing enemy attempts at reconnaissance, obscuring the fleet, special missions and so much more.
Operational Research was applied to magic just as it was to conventional warfighting methods.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Dec 31, 2019 15:46:09 GMT
Do the Germans have any territory in space, like on Mars, Luna ore lets say Venus.
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Post by simon darkshade on Dec 31, 2019 16:15:32 GMT
They did, but it was lost in the war and transferred in the Treaty of Versailles.
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Post by simon darkshade on Jan 1, 2020 12:41:41 GMT
In general, the Great War in space is similar to a combination between operations in Africa in our WW1 and the Seven Years' War in India and North America - essentially independent wars conducted by limited colonial forces without optimal means of communication and often with rather less sophisticated weapons and equipment.
On the moons, the Germans were wrapped up fairly quickly. (German Pacific islands)
On Mars, the news of war did not reach the various colonial holdings until August 1915, after which time there was a lengthy campaign that only ended in May 1918. (East Africa)
On Venus, the German holdings were less sophisticated and were rolled up fairly quickly. (West Africa)
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. Not sure of the name of that 3rd speaker but he sounds very formidable and also very well traveled in time and space. Although the idea of time traveling mages suggests that in a real crisis you could see some of those great mages from different ages coming together!
I also love the understatement of the intrusion. "Yes, I do understand you chaps have a rather long degree process" and the last phase from the master mage. 
Or simply any large establishment which automatically gets bureaucratic over time. 