lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jan 18, 2020 7:36:02 GMT
Tom does have a point regarding the efficiency of reducing the number of types of aircraft in service. Currently, as of 1963, the RAF fields Fighters: Fairey Delta II Avro Arrow English Electric Lightning Supermarine Sunstar Hawker-Siddeley Merlin de Havilland Spectre Saunders-Roe Phoenix SR.187 Hawker Siddeley Harrier Hawker Hunter Bombers Avro Vulcan Vickers Valiant Handley Page Vengeance Supermarine Eagle TSR-2 English Electric Canberra Transports Vickers Voyager Bristol Britannia Shorts Belfast Hawker Siddeley HS.681 Fairey Rotodyne Reconnaissance Bristol Bluebird English Electric Canberra Trainers Folland Wasp Percival Jet Provost These 23 types will drop to 20 by the end of 1963, but further consolidation would save money. That are a lot of aircraft, always toughed, having more different version for the same role makes it hard on logistic, maintenance and training, ore am i wrong.
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simon darkshade
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Post by simon darkshade on Jan 18, 2020 8:52:39 GMT
It does put strains on logistics and training, but isn’t completely impossible.
In this era, the USAF fielded the F-84F, F-100, F-101, F-102, F-104, F-105, F-106, F-4, B-26, B-57, B-66, B-47, B-52, B-58, A-1, A-37, OV-10, C-119, C-123, C-124, C-130, C-135, C-137, KC-97 and a few more besides.
The RAF seeks to reduce its fleet to a smaller amount, but, like the USAF, has a number of different air forces - Bomber Command/SAC; Strike Command/TAC; RAF Germany/USAFE; and Fighter Command/ADC. FEAF/Pacific Air Forces and MEAF/Middle East Air Forces are broadly similar to TAC in having a range of aircraft.
The Treasury, whilst a lot less powerful in terms of its influence over British military aircraft, would like to see cuts. Up against that are the number of new aircraft types entering service in the 1960s - the Armstrong-Whitworth Atlas VLR transport, the de Havilland Tornado, the Vickers Thunderbolt, the Gloster Lion, the Supermarine Victory and the Avro Vindicator.
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simon darkshade
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Post by simon darkshade on Jan 19, 2020 4:38:13 GMT
As a bit of context, the RAF Order of Battle in 1963:
7980 aircraft
Fighter Command (1866 aircraft) 562 English Electric Lightnings (24 Squadrons) 380 Avro Arrows (16 Squadrons) 376 Fairey Delta IIs (16 Squadrons) 364 Supermarine Sunstars (16 Squadrons) 184 Saunders-Roe Phoenix (8 Squadrons)
Bomber Command (2748 aircraft) 756 Vickers Valiants (32 Squadrons) 562 Avro Vulcans (24 Squadrons) 467 Supermarine Eagle TSR-2s (20 Squadrons) 368 Handley-Page Vengeance (16 Squadrons)
469 Bristol Skytankers (15 Squadrons)
42 Bristol Bluebirds (4 Squadrons) 84 English Electric Canberra PR.9s (4 Squadrons)
256 Blue Streak ICBM (4 Squadrons; 6400 miles; 160 with 10 and 96 with 25 Mt) 240 Black Arrow MRBM (4 Squadrons; 2500 miles; 2.5 Mt) 250 Red King GLCM (4 Squadrons; 3200 miles; 1 Mt)
Strike Command (944 aircraft) 284 de Havilland Spectres (16 Squadrons) 280 Hawker-Siddeley Harriers (12 Squadrons) 263 Hawker-Siddeley Merlins (12 Squadrons) 120 English Electric Canberra (5 Squadrons)
RAF Germany (864 aircraft) 240 Hawker-Siddeley Harriers (10 Squadrons) 192 de Havilland Spectres (8 Squadrons) 144 Supermarine Sunstars (6 Squadrons) 144 English Electric Lightnings (6 Squadrons) 144 Hawker-Siddeley Merlins (6 Squadrons)
Transport Command (874 aircraft) 156 Bristol Britannias (6 Squadrons) 154 Fairey Rotodynes (6 Squadrons) 380 Vickers Voyagers (16 Squadrons) 184 Shorts Belfasts (8 Squadrons)
Middle East Air Force (338 aircraft) 92 de Havilland Spectres (4 Squadrons) 90 Hawker Siddeley Harriers (4 Squadrons) 86 English Electric Lightnings (4 Squadrons) 46 Avro Arrows (2 Squadron) 24 Fairey Rotodynes (1 Squadron)
Far East Air Force (346 aircraft) 96 de Havilland Spectres (4 Squadrons) 96 English Electric Lightnings (4 Squadrons) 85 Hawker-Siddeley Harriers (4 Squadrons) 45 Avro Arrows (1 Squadron) 24 Fairey Rotodynes (1 Squadron)
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jan 19, 2020 9:14:41 GMT
As a bit of context, the RAF Order of Battle in 1963: 7980 aircraft Fighter Command (1866 aircraft)562 English Electric Lightnings (24 Squadrons) 380 Avro Arrows (16 Squadrons) 376 Fairey Delta IIs (16 Squadrons) 364 Supermarine Sunstars (16 Squadrons) 184 Saunders-Roe Phoenix (8 Squadrons) Bomber Command (2748 aircraft)756 Vickers Valiants (32 Squadrons) 562 Avro Vulcans (24 Squadrons) 467 Supermarine Eagle TSR-2s (20 Squadrons) 368 Handley-Page Vengeance (16 Squadrons) 469 Bristol Skytankers (15 Squadrons) 42 Bristol Bluebirds (4 Squadrons) 84 English Electric Canberra PR.9s (4 Squadrons) 256 Blue Streak ICBM (4 Squadrons; 6400 miles; 160 with 10 and 96 with 25 Mt) 240 Black Arrow MRBM (4 Squadrons; 2500 miles; 2.5 Mt) 250 Red King GLCM (4 Squadrons; 3200 miles; 1 Mt) Strike Command (944 aircraft)284 de Havilland Spectres (16 Squadrons) 280 Hawker-Siddeley Harriers (12 Squadrons) 263 Hawker-Siddeley Merlins (12 Squadrons) 120 English Electric Canberra (5 Squadrons) RAF Germany (864 aircraft)240 Hawker-Siddeley Harriers (10 Squadrons) 192 de Havilland Spectres (8 Squadrons) 144 Supermarine Sunstars (6 Squadrons) 144 English Electric Lightnings (6 Squadrons) 144 Hawker-Siddeley Merlins (6 Squadrons) Transport Command (874 aircraft)156 Bristol Britannias (6 Squadrons) 154 Fairey Rotodynes (6 Squadrons) 380 Vickers Voyagers (16 Squadrons) 184 Shorts Belfasts (8 Squadrons) Middle East Air Force (338 aircraft)92 de Havilland Spectres (4 Squadrons) 90 Hawker Siddeley Harriers (4 Squadrons) 86 English Electric Lightnings (4 Squadrons) 46 Avro Arrows (2 Squadron) 24 Fairey Rotodynes (1 Squadron) Far East Air Force (346 aircraft)96 de Havilland Spectres (4 Squadrons) 96 English Electric Lightnings (4 Squadrons) 85 Hawker-Siddeley Harriers (4 Squadrons) 45 Avro Arrows (1 Squadron) 24 Fairey Rotodynes (1 Squadron) Good looking RAF that can kick ass.
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simon darkshade
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Post by simon darkshade on Jan 19, 2020 9:55:43 GMT
It is capable of delivering a sharp repost to mules and hinnies as well.
This shows the RAF in the process of contraction as part of the ideas of the 1961 Defence White Paper; Labour have ambitions of expansion in some areas and will win the 1964 election, as we know from the timeline.
The Britannias will be replaced by HS.681s very soon and the Rotodynes are being shifted from RAF Transport Command to Special Operations Command, but this is a matter of some dispute.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jan 19, 2020 13:22:33 GMT
As a bit of context, the RAF Order of Battle in 1963: 7980 aircraft Fighter Command (1866 aircraft)562 English Electric Lightnings (24 Squadrons) 380 Avro Arrows (16 Squadrons) 376 Fairey Delta IIs (16 Squadrons) 364 Supermarine Sunstars (16 Squadrons) 184 Saunders-Roe Phoenix (8 Squadrons) Bomber Command (2748 aircraft)756 Vickers Valiants (32 Squadrons) 562 Avro Vulcans (24 Squadrons) 467 Supermarine Eagle TSR-2s (20 Squadrons) 368 Handley-Page Vengeance (16 Squadrons) 469 Bristol Skytankers (15 Squadrons) 42 Bristol Bluebirds (4 Squadrons) 84 English Electric Canberra PR.9s (4 Squadrons) 256 Blue Streak ICBM (4 Squadrons; 6400 miles; 160 with 10 and 96 with 25 Mt) 240 Black Arrow MRBM (4 Squadrons; 2500 miles; 2.5 Mt) 250 Red King GLCM (4 Squadrons; 3200 miles; 1 Mt) Strike Command (944 aircraft)284 de Havilland Spectres (16 Squadrons) 280 Hawker-Siddeley Harriers (12 Squadrons) 263 Hawker-Siddeley Merlins (12 Squadrons) 120 English Electric Canberra (5 Squadrons) RAF Germany (864 aircraft)240 Hawker-Siddeley Harriers (10 Squadrons) 192 de Havilland Spectres (8 Squadrons) 144 Supermarine Sunstars (6 Squadrons) 144 English Electric Lightnings (6 Squadrons) 144 Hawker-Siddeley Merlins (6 Squadrons) Transport Command (874 aircraft)156 Bristol Britannias (6 Squadrons) 154 Fairey Rotodynes (6 Squadrons) 380 Vickers Voyagers (16 Squadrons) 184 Shorts Belfasts (8 Squadrons) Middle East Air Force (338 aircraft)92 de Havilland Spectres (4 Squadrons) 90 Hawker Siddeley Harriers (4 Squadrons) 86 English Electric Lightnings (4 Squadrons) 46 Avro Arrows (2 Squadron) 24 Fairey Rotodynes (1 Squadron) Far East Air Force (346 aircraft)96 de Havilland Spectres (4 Squadrons) 96 English Electric Lightnings (4 Squadrons) 85 Hawker-Siddeley Harriers (4 Squadrons) 45 Avro Arrows (1 Squadron) 24 Fairey Rotodynes (1 Squadron)
That is one hell of an RAF. The ICBMs if they were ever used would make a very nasty mess of a lot of areas.
I've I'm reading it rightly the following a/c weren't produced OTL, other than some research projects that were cancelled after a prototype at most?
Avro Arrows Fairey Delta IIs Supermarine Sunstars Saunders-Roe Phoenix Supermarine Eagle TSR-2s Handley-Page Vengeance Bristol Skytankers Bristol Bluebirds de Havilland Spectres Hawker-Siddeley Merlins Fairey Rotodynes Vickers Voyagers
Which means that the British/Commonwealth a/c industry is presumably a hell of a lot larger and more powerful than OTL. And Labour are talking about expanding it in some areas!
Steve
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simon darkshade
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Post by simon darkshade on Jan 19, 2020 16:23:25 GMT
Steve
It is a larger RAF, which historically peaked in 1952 with 6,338 on strength. The big differences on Dark Earth comes from the extended Korean War conventional rearmament, the lack of a shift to a purely nuclear defence in the 1952 Global Strategy Paper, a full-on regional war and near WW3 in 1956, the lack of a 1957 Defence White Paper and the 1960 Crisis. Significantly, the pursuit of ABM technology and certain magical defences make nuclear weapons less of a be-all and end-all.
The contraction is coming, albeit from a much higher maximum strength and with the necessity to maintain very strong forces in the Middle East and Far East. However, it runs into that scourge of money-saving schemes: events.
For example, after 1963, as South Vietnam heats up, the operational strength of the Far East Air Force is doubled. This is further increased in 1965 as war with Indonesia is very narrowly avoided; an extremely cold peace with larger forces in Malaya ensues.
The ICBM force is primarily aimed at the USSR, but also at China. It has enough to ensure that a very strong strike gets through any defences, malfunctions and intervention.
Many aircraft are historically based, albeit all very different.
Historically Based
Avro Arrow: This is not the baseline Arrow, but a more advanced version roughly somewhere between the proposed Mark 2 and Mark 3 in performance. Very long range.
Fairey Delta II: Based on the historical Fairey Delta III for the F.155 in appearance, with a maximum speed of Mach 3.2 a long range and a heavy AAM capacity. It's predecessor, the Fairey Delta, is our Fairey Delta II, adapted into an operational fighter that has a performance very similar to the @ Mirage III.
Saunders-Roe Phoenix: SR.187 with more powerful 32,500lbf engines in addition to their rockets; as in all other cases, it carries a better AAM capacity.
TSR-2: This is a much larger aircraft with VG wings. Full details are in the article in the 'Never Had it So Good' thread, but it is basically of a size and capacity similar to the Tu-22M Backfire, whilst still bearing a strong visual resemblance to the @ TSR-2.
de Havilland Spectre: The de Havilland DH.127, with a larger size and range. It is something of a 1950s proto-Phantom, with a smaller bombload of 12000lb and a combat radius of 409nm
Hawker-Siddeley Merlin: This is the Hawker P.1121. It is really the British equivalent to the Phantom in terms of its all-round versatility, but has a longer range and more emphasis on the 'strike fighter' mission. With the advent of the de Havilland Tornado, it will take on new roles. Combat radius is 650nm, compared to 525nm for the F-4.
Fairey Rotodyne: An evolved version of the historical aircraft, with a top speed of 295mph and a range of 500nm.
In military terms, they play the role of
- ASW helicopters - AEW aircraft - Light tactical transports like the de Havilland Canada Caribou - Light attack/surveillance/FAC aircraft like the OV-1 Mohawk and the OV-10 Bronco - COIN aircraft - SAR helicopters - Amphibious assault helicopters - Helicopter gunships - Air assault helicopters - Cargo helicopters - Utility helicopters - Recon
It takes on many of the roles of the heavy lift helicopters, such as the Chinook, Super Stallion, Sea Knight and Sea Stallion from @. There is a niche for light, section/squad level helicopters, such as the Huey, Lynx, Wessex, Wasp, Gazelle and Alouette, but only a limited one. Eventually, by the mid 1970s, the small frigates and destroyers of the 50s will be out of service, and new ships will be large enough to take a Rotodyne each as a minimum.
Vickers Voyager: This is the Vickers VC-7/V-1000, with a capacity of 200 passengers or troops or 160 paratroopers.
Ahistorical/Fictional Aircraft
Supermarine Sunstar: This is an original fighter. It has the wing shape of the North American Aviation submission to the USAF FX project, two afterburning Rolls Royce Olympus turbojets with 29,500lbf each, a twin tail and a fuselage that looks similar to the historical Vickers Supermarine Type 583.
Handley-Page Vengeance: This is based on the historical Supersonic Victor variant, with a higher top speed. It fills the role of a pathfinder/strategic reconnaissance bomber, designed to kick in the door of Soviet air defences, destroying SAM sites, radars and fighters with nuclear AGMs and AAMs for the Vulcans.
Bristol Skytanker: An original design aerial tanker with a fuel capacity of 240,000lb, it looks like an enlarged Bristol 200 with four underwing podded engines.
Bristol Bluebird: Take the Bristol 188, increase it in size, give it a larger wing and slot in two extremely powerful engines. The result is a fast, high altitude reconnaissance aircraft.
Avro Arrow – 2 x Orenda Iroquois w. 32000lbf; Mach 2.87@ 70000ft; ceiling of 80000ft; 960nm combat radius; 4 x Firebolt, 4 x Skyblade, 4 x Galahad, 2 x 25mm ADEN cannon
Fairey Delta II – 2 x RR RB.108 Skylon turbojets w.36250lbf; Mach 3.25@ 70000ft; ceiling of 85000ft; 750nm combat radius; 4 x Skyblade, 8 x Galahad; 2 x 25mm ADEN cannon; 4000lb bombload
Supermarine Sunstar Type 560 – 2 x Rolls Royce Olympus w.24000 lbf; Mach 2.4 @50000ft; ceiling of 67000ft; 495nm combat radius; 4 x Firebolt, 4 x Skyblade, 2 x 25mm ADEN cannon; 5000lb bombload
Saunders-Roe SR.187 Phoenix – 1 x de Havilland Gyron turbojet w. 25625lbf, 1 x de Havilland Ghost rocket engine w. 12500lbf , Mach 3.125@75000ft, ceiling of 85000ft, 300nm combat radius, 2 x Firebolt, 4 x Skyblade, 2 x 25mm ADEN cannon; 8000lb bombload
Supermarine Eagle TSR-2 - 2 x Rolls Royce Olympus turbofans w. 29500lbf; Mach 2.5@ 50000ft; ceiling of 85000ft; 1600nm combat radius; 32000lb bombload
Handley-Page Vengeance - 4 x de Havilland Gyron w. 25000lbf; Mach 2.65@ 50000ft; ceiling of 70000ft, 2400nm combat radius; 40000lb bombload
Bristol Bluebird - 2 x Rolls Royce RB.124 Skylon II turbojets w. 36250lbf; Mach 3.25@85000ft; ceiling of 100000ft; 2400nm combat radius
de Havilland Spectre - 2 x de Havilland Gyron w. 20000lbf, Mach 2.36@50000ft, ceiling of 65000ft, 400nm combat radius; 4 x Firebolt, 4 x Skyblade, 2 x 25mm ADEN cannon; 12000lb bombload
Hawker Siddeley P.1121 Merlin – 1 x de Havilland Gyron w. 29500lbf, Mach 2.7@ 60000ft, ceiling of 70000ft, 640nm combat radius; 4 x Firebolt, 4 x Skyblade, 2 x 25mm ADEN cannon; 20000lb bombload
And, for good measure:
Hawker Siddeley Harrier P.1154 – 1 x Bristol BS125 Pegasus w. 32500lbf; Mach 2.5 @40000ft; ceiling of 60000ft; 300nm combat radius; 4 x Firebolt, 2 x Skyblade, 2 x 25mm ADEN cannon; 8000lb bombload
English Electric Lightning – 2 x RR Thames RB.106 w 30000lbf; Mach 3.025@70000ft; ceiling of 85000ft; 425nm combat radius; 4 x Firebolt, 4 x Skyblade, 4 x Galahad, 2 x 25mm ADEN cannon
Avro Vulcan - 8 x 24000lbf Rolls-Royce Olympus, Mach 1.25@50000ft; Ceiling of 67250ft; 3600nm combat radius; 24 x Firebolt, 8 x Skyblade, 4 x 25mm ADEN; 80000lb bombload
Vickers Valiant - 4 x 16250lbf Rolls-Royce Avon, 960mph, 65000ft ceiling, 48000lb bombload, 2400nm combat radius, 4 x 25mm ADEN cannon
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jan 19, 2020 16:33:30 GMT
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jan 19, 2020 16:34:40 GMT
Second that simon darkshade, the information you always provide is second to none.
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simon darkshade
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Post by simon darkshade on Jan 19, 2020 17:17:57 GMT
You are quite welcome, gentlemen. I post up my Dark Earth works here, AH.com, TBOverse and my own website and this has had the most consistently large number of comments and questions, primarily from you two chaps. AH.com varies, with long years of nothing, large numbers of questions in 2017 and 2018 (significant amounts of which came from our own Lordroel), then another drought, a burst of questions and bumps from one chap in November, and now another drought.
I have so much background detail, so it is great to be able to share it and then explain it further in the course of conversation. I’m not sure if the fantastical nature of the world is an immediate turnoff for some readers, but that is what I surmise in general.
The Barton Labour Government is faced with a number of growing crises and wars, so it isn’t seen as the time for force contraction. As of 1965, it has the following aircraft procurement plans:
De Havilland Tornado: 120 for RAF Germany, 240 for Strike Command, 120 for MEAF, 120 for FEAF Vickers Thunderbolt: 240 for Strike Command, 80 for MEAF, 80 for FEAF Gloster Lion: 120 for RAF Germany, 240 for Strike Command
This would bring RAF to 912 aircraft by 1970, with a further 2 squadrons of Merlins bringing it to its target of 960 aircraft.
Strike Command will consist of 240 Harriers and 240 Merlins in addition to these new aircraft, for a strength of 1200 aircraft.
Bomber Command will see its numbers reduce as the Valiants leave service, with the Victory supersonic bomber and Avro Vindicator not making up much of that due to their sheer cost. The Valiants will stick around in the regional air forces as theatre weapons, as well as reserve; like the USAF with their B-47s, the RAF is loathe to lose the capacity of their sheer numbers.
With regard to the F-4 Phantom, it is seen as an excellent ‘swing-role’ fighter-bomber for the ‘Imperial role’ (FEAF and MEAF) and ‘European role’; Labour also want to build up Fighter Command.
As for the ~660 Spectres, there are plans for large surplus sales to the Middle East, India and South America; there are 480 in the RAuxAF reserves.
One of the casualties of the Far East troubles in Malaya, Burma and Vietnam has been the SR.187; there are some thoughts of selling them off to the Luftwaffe.
Finally, on top of all these programmes, there are the two future fighter projects underway for the 1970s at Supermarine and Hawker-Siddeley.
I’d be interested in ideas and perspectives regarding the RAF force picture for 1965-1975; some might influence my ideas for future development.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jan 20, 2020 4:48:46 GMT
You are quite welcome, gentlemen. I post up my Dark Earth works here, AH.com, TBOverse and my own website and this has had the most consistently large number of comments and questions, primarily from you two chaps. AH.com varies, with long years of nothing, large numbers of questions in 2017 and 2018 (significant amounts of which came from our own Lordroel), then another drought, a burst of questions and bumps from one chap in November, and now another drought. I have so much background detail, so it is great to be able to share it and then explain it further in the course of conversation. I’m not sure if the fantastical nature of the world is an immediate turnoff for some readers, but that is what I surmise in general. The Barton Labour Government is faced with a number of growing crises and wars, so it isn’t seen as the time for force contraction. As of 1965, it has the following aircraft procurement plans: De Havilland Tornado: 120 for RAF Germany, 240 for Strike Command, 120 for MEAF, 120 for FEAF Vickers Thunderbolt: 240 for Strike Command, 80 for MEAF, 80 for FEAF Gloster Lion: 120 for RAF Germany, 240 for Strike Command This would bring RAF to 912 aircraft by 1970, with a further 2 squadrons of Merlins bringing it to its target of 960 aircraft. Strike Command will consist of 240 Harriers and 240 Merlins in addition to these new aircraft, for a strength of 1200 aircraft. Bomber Command will see its numbers reduce as the Valiants leave service, with the Victory supersonic bomber and Avro Vindicator not making up much of that due to their sheer cost. The Valiants will stick around in the regional air forces as theatre weapons, as well as reserve; like the USAF with their B-47s, the RAF is loathe to lose the capacity of their sheer numbers. With regard to the F-4 Phantom, it is seen as an excellent ‘swing-role’ fighter-bomber for the ‘Imperial role’ (FEAF and MEAF) and ‘European role’; Labour also want to build up Fighter Command. As for the ~660 Spectres, there are plans for large surplus sales to the Middle East, India and South America; there are 480 in the RAuxAF reserves. One of the casualties of the Far East troubles in Malaya, Burma and Vietnam has been the SR.187; there are some thoughts of selling them off to the Luftwaffe. Finally, on top of all these programmes, there are the two future fighter projects underway for the 1970s at Supermarine and Hawker-Siddeley. I’d be interested in ideas and perspectives regarding the RAF force picture for 1965-1975; some might influence my ideas for future development. A Tornado, seems we will not see a fighter named Tornado in the near future that was a joint Euro project i guess.
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simon darkshade
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Post by simon darkshade on Jan 20, 2020 5:57:50 GMT
No. This version comes from the lineage of OR.339, which historically resulted in the Vickers/BAC P.45. Here, the aircraft is something more like the subsequent AFVG; historically, this then was somewhat downgraded to the UKVG and then the Panavia Tornado.
The one major multinational aircraft is the Scandinavian ‘Viking’ supersonic fighter.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jan 20, 2020 9:47:58 GMT
You are quite welcome, gentlemen. I post up my Dark Earth works here, AH.com, TBOverse and my own website and this has had the most consistently large number of comments and questions, primarily from you two chaps. AH.com varies, with long years of nothing, large numbers of questions in 2017 and 2018 (significant amounts of which came from our own Lordroel), then another drought, a burst of questions and bumps from one chap in November, and now another drought. I have so much background detail, so it is great to be able to share it and then explain it further in the course of conversation. I’m not sure if the fantastical nature of the world is an immediate turnoff for some readers, but that is what I surmise in general. The Barton Labour Government is faced with a number of growing crises and wars, so it isn’t seen as the time for force contraction. As of 1965, it has the following aircraft procurement plans: De Havilland Tornado: 120 for RAF Germany, 240 for Strike Command, 120 for MEAF, 120 for FEAF Vickers Thunderbolt: 240 for Strike Command, 80 for MEAF, 80 for FEAF Gloster Lion: 120 for RAF Germany, 240 for Strike Command This would bring RAF to 912 aircraft by 1970, with a further 2 squadrons of Merlins bringing it to its target of 960 aircraft. Strike Command will consist of 240 Harriers and 240 Merlins in addition to these new aircraft, for a strength of 1200 aircraft. Bomber Command will see its numbers reduce as the Valiants leave service, with the Victory supersonic bomber and Avro Vindicator not making up much of that due to their sheer cost. The Valiants will stick around in the regional air forces as theatre weapons, as well as reserve; like the USAF with their B-47s, the RAF is loathe to lose the capacity of their sheer numbers. With regard to the F-4 Phantom, it is seen as an excellent ‘swing-role’ fighter-bomber for the ‘Imperial role’ (FEAF and MEAF) and ‘European role’; Labour also want to build up Fighter Command. As for the ~660 Spectres, there are plans for large surplus sales to the Middle East, India and South America; there are 480 in the RAuxAF reserves. One of the casualties of the Far East troubles in Malaya, Burma and Vietnam has been the SR.187; there are some thoughts of selling them off to the Luftwaffe. Finally, on top of all these programmes, there are the two future fighter projects underway for the 1970s at Supermarine and Hawker-Siddeley. I’d be interested in ideas and perspectives regarding the RAF force picture for 1965-1975; some might influence my ideas for future development.
Well the big issue I can see compared to OTL is would the RAF see their nuclear bombers - at least the strategic ones - reduced due to their cost and surviability as especially SSBMs become available. Of course likely to see a big fight between the RAF and the RN on this issue. Have no doubt that land based missiles will be maintained. Similarly there might be a later attempt at something like the Sandy's with an argument for more tactical missiles and less manned a/c. While feeling in support of manned a/c is going to be markedly stronger there is likely to be some arguing that missiles will be better in some cases.
On related issues there is probably going to be more use of stand off weapons as air defences improve and penetrating them becomes more costly.
Also I suspect in DE Britain is almost certain to develop its own AWAC type vehicles. Plus possibly more emphasis on force multipliers such as long ranged transports and air to air refueling especially given that for the foreseeable future Britain will continue to have commitments around the world, or at least the old world hemisphere so being able to deploy forces quickly over long distances is going to be important.
OTL in the 1960's you saw the forming of the MoD and hence the three services losing their traditional independence. I think this is unlikely to occur shortly in DE but could be some movements this way.
Anyway initial ideas and have to go to work but might think up a few other issues.
Steve
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simon darkshade
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Post by simon darkshade on Jan 20, 2020 16:48:56 GMT
Steve,
That is a first and major issue. Historically, the V Bombers were phased out even before the SSBNs came into service and Britain preferred a minimal deterrent force. Here, they cultivate a strategic triad of bombers, missiles and submarines. The bombers are seen as very important for versatility, survivability, sheer megatonnage and the ability to be used for missions outside of general war - the 'cold war' missions rather than the 'hot war' missions, to use the parlance of the 1950s and 1960s. Their bombing role in Vietnam, Malaya, the Middle East, Africa and elsewhere is seen as extremely advantageous.
The era of the Sandystorm/missiles replacing manned aircraft doesn't arise here, due to the active wars of the 1950s and early 1960s.
Stand-off weapons are already in use in the form of the advanced marks of Grand Slam (250 miles), Blue Steel (600+ miles) and Skybolt. Future developments will include the Bristol X.12 Pandora (1200 miles @ Mach 4), an aerial version of the Lionheart SLCM, the Avro W.140 and some quite ambitious ramjet powered missiles.
Definitely right on AWACS, electronic jammers, tankers and long range transports. Not in the numbers of the USAF, but substantial in their own right.
The lack of MoD coordination is a good point.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jan 20, 2020 16:53:12 GMT
The one major multinational aircraft is the Scandinavian ‘Viking’ supersonic fighter. With Sweden being the leading nation of the joint Scandinavian project i guess.
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