lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Sept 8, 2019 9:27:08 GMT
And most likely has also become a naval legend. Yes and no. He is certainly better regarded that Donitz and Riccardi, but is still viewed as the loser of Midway, the South China Sea, Guadalcanal, the Philippine Sea, Leyte Gulf and the Final Battle. I think with all those big defeats he will no longer be a admiral but more a senior adviser, ore am I wrong.
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simon darkshade
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Post by simon darkshade on Sept 8, 2019 9:36:41 GMT
He is retired and has not been formally in the IJN since 1945, but remains a senior adviser and naval elder. The IJN of the 1960s is building up once again in response to the Soviets and Chinese and will see action in one theatre.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Sept 8, 2019 10:25:13 GMT
And most likely has also become a naval legend. Yes and no. He is certainly better regarded that Donitz and Riccardi, but is still viewed as the loser of Midway, the South China Sea, Guadalcanal, the Philippine Sea, Leyte Gulf and the Final Battle.
That may not be too significant as other than Midway he would have been pretty much massively outnumbered. For instance Lee ended up losing the in the USCW but is still regarded highly by many, including people from the northern part of the US.
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simon darkshade
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Post by simon darkshade on Sept 8, 2019 11:11:59 GMT
The big defeats are Midway and the South China Sea Campaign, which takes place across several months:
First Battle of Singapore (December 1941/January 1942) Battle of Brunei (February 1942) Battle of Sumatra Strait (March 1942) Second Battle of Singapore (April 1942)
The basic flow of the campaign is that the RN does send a sizeable fleet to Singapore, initially known as the Eastern Fleet and then as the Grand Fleet from December 1942 (the previously named Grand Fleet at Scapa Flow becomes the Home Fleet). As of December 7th 1941, it fields 12 battleships, 8 aircraft carriers, 4 battlecruisers, 18 heavy cruisers, 24 light cruisers, 10 anti-aircraft cruisers, 87 destroyers, 42 frigates and 49 submarines.
In response to its presence, the IJN sends the Combined Fleet south (16 battleships, 4 battlecruisers, 10 carriers, 14 heavy cruisers, 29 light cruisers, 108 destroyers and over 400 land based planes operating out of Southern Indochina) and there is a complex fleet battle that results in a narrow RN victory (Losses RN 2 CV, 1 BB + 2 CV, 2 BB damaged; IJN 3 CV, 3 BB + 3 CV, 5 BB damaged).
Both forces are reinforced, with the Kido Butai proving very damaging in subsequent battles; French and Dutch battleships serve alongside the British, Australian and New Zealand ships. The IJN is unable to lure the Grand Fleet out from beyond the range of RAF air cover from the Malay peninsula, but the RN is also constrained by Japanese airpower operating out of Borneo, Sumatra and Indochina.
It peters out into a bloody draw by the end of April 1942, as HMAS Australia, HMNZS New Zealand, HMS Hood, HMS Princess Royal, HMS Ark Royal and HMS Victorious are dispatched to cover Australia and the South Pacific from the threat of Japanese invasion. The bulk of the Eastern Fleet pulls back to operate in the Andaman Sea, beyond the direct reach of the IJN whilst ships are repaired in India and Ceylon.
By the end of 1942, the RN is further reinforced by new construction and ready to go on the offensive in 1943, firstly supporting advances in Burma and Malaya, then neutralising Sumatra and finally supporting the invasions of Siam and Cambodia. In 1944, they cover the invasion of Vietnam, the liberation of Hong Kong and the invasions of Java and Borneo, before the invasion of Formosa in early 1945 and the link-up of the USN and RN for the final strikes on the Japanese Home Islands.
Yamamoto is seen as a talented admiral who was definitely defeated in detail from 1942-45.
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simon darkshade
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Post by simon darkshade on Oct 16, 2019 11:57:13 GMT
Exercise Warhammer Part 3: Rendevous with the Royals
Thankfully, the ride from the Somme to Germany had been much smoother than that of the morning. Flying in over the Heligoland Bight, he was struck by the sight not so far below them of the North Sea Fleet of the Imperial German Navy steaming out to join in the exercise, their carriers and the huge battleships making the little old Somme seem like a child's toy in comparison. They had been the cause of such a fuss over the last few years, from the fusty old admirals and captains bristling at any sort of German war fleet to the French, but Tom thought that was just so much tosh. They were a threat neither in numbers or capacity, not compared with what the Andrew had, and the small matter of the Soviet Baltic Fleet was more pressing.
"Quite something, aren't they?"
Tom looked up from his musing at his interlocutor, a Canadian fellow named Shafer or something like that who did seem distinctly familiar.
"I dare say they are. Not quite as many missiles or planes as ours, but their battlewagons are newer. You seen anything like it?"
"Seven years ago, in Egypt. Now that was a fleet and a half. We couldn't use any of the pictures until afterwards and the MoD kept us on the tightest of leashes when we landed in Alex. They had really knocked the place for six, but very little of that got out."
"Most of the damage had been repaired by the time I was out there a few years ago during my National Service." Tom was warming to the fellow and a good contact never went astray in the business.
"Probably. Keeping the war correspondents away from the battlefront and Cairo stopped us from seeing most of it. Seems like the Americans are taking a leaf out of that book in South Vietnam; I hear you can get more out of the French in Algiers than them."
"Here's to freedom of the press." Tom said sardonically.
"Amen to that."
After they crossed over the coast, the first sign that he was entering a very different country to old Blighty back home was clearly visible - the missile launchers of the Luftverteidigungskraft lined up like the old shore defence cannons back in the war, overlooking the beach and defending the mouth of the vital Kiel Canal. The Jerries had never rebuilt their big gun defences when they had been allowed an army again back in the 50s and they were barred from doing so on the North Sea coast in any case. Tom remembered reading about them burying old tanks up around Kiel as well as fiddling around with some new self-propelled howitzers. Not that this end of Germany was bereft of big guns; he be seeing some of them later on.
As the Rotodyne flew up the Elbe to the muffled background hum of the quietened engines, there were now more missile sites beneath them, part of the five great circles of Fortress Hamburg, as the Nord Deutscher Zeitung had apparently dubbed it. As far as fortresses went, it wasn't on a par with the Maginot Line or the Berlin Wall, but this was a modern system of field positions, missile sites and anti-tank ditches, with much hidden from observation from the air; in wartime, they would be joined by minefields to channel the enemy into killing zones. He'd seen the old remnants of the British anti-invasion defences of the last war at home while growing up, old overgrown pillboxes and trenches for an enemy who never came. For the Germans down below, this was a real and current threat, not history.
Although his hosts were now the Royal Marines and his taxi-cab provided by the Fleet Air Arm, they landed at RAF Uetersen and, to his relief, the weather that greeted his arrival back on terra firma was bright and clear. The runways were bustling with activity and crowded with aircraft, with the usual pair of Supermarine Sunstar squadrons now joined by Harriers and Merlins and its RAF Regiment defences augmented by a Territorial Army anti-aircraft regiment armed with 40mm Bofors guns. Tom's attention, however, was drawn to the reception committee that awaited
Standing before them was a hulking Royal Marine officer in camouflage battle dress, flanked by several somewhat smaller Marines and three forest green Alvis Sphinx transports.
"Good morning, gentlemen and welcome to Germany. Major Standley, Royal Marine Forces Germany. You'll be relieved to know that you've only got a short ride to go to RM Garstedt for our briefing and then a spot of lunch. If you'd be so kind as to hop aboard, we have the road cleared and ready to go."
As they sped along the gun barrel straight military road at a speed that Tom preferred not to know, he decided that he definitely preferred the solidity of the earth below him over the waves or the skies. Hopefully there wouldn't be any further novel forms of transport awaiting them. ...................................................................................................................................................................
Garstedt had once apparently been a charming German village in the manner of many such in the area, but that was long passed now. An errant RNAS bombing raid one night in 1943 had flattened the poor place with creepback and when the British Army of the Rhine had been re-established two years later, it had been requisitioned for a new garrison. It had been handed over to the Royal Marines in 1951 as they had gained a continental role once again in the Korean War build-up and turned into what it now was - an array of vast barracks, vehicle warehouses and grey concrete behind a series of steel fences.
Upon their arrival in the huge central parade ground, the correspondents were ushered into the mess hall, half of which had been hastily converted into a briefing room. The tantalising smells of delicious cooked meats wafted over the partition, making both Tom and his stomach hope that the presentation would be swift and to the point. Without further ado, the doors opposite them were thrown open and an enormous Marine brigadier came into the room, making the erstwhile Standley look positively tiny in comparison. He proceeded to begin the briefing in a booming voice, talking at a rapid pace.
"Good morning. I am Brigadier Hurricane, Commander RMFG. Now, I can tell you're all bursting for the scran, so I'll keep this short, sharp and shiny. Our role in this exercise is to provide flank defence to the British Army of the Rhine and keep open the lines of communication of Allied forces in Schleswig-Holstein, with a specific role for the defence of the Kiel Canal in conjunction with the Deutsche Marinier-Korps. "
Pulling aside a curtain, he unveiled a large map and whacked at it with his pointing stick in several different locations.
"Here. Here. Here. Here. Each of our four battlegroups is a fully integrated unit of armour, artillery and Royal Marine infantry, fully supported by batteries of anti-aircraft and anti-ship missiles. We are the only brigade in the Royals equipped with the new Hercules heavy armoured amphibious carriers and we've recently been reinforced by 1st Royal Marine Heavy Armoured Regiment with its Super Conqueror heavy battle tanks. Should the enemy come, they will be stopped, make no mistake. Our biggest weapon for stopping them, of course, is our big guns. After lunch, you'll be having a demonstration of their firepower. Conventional of course. Any questions? No? Good."
Hurricane marched away from the podium without even pausing to take questions, clearly with a mission on his mind. Tom's misgivings at the brevity of the briefing were soon dispelled as the partition was pulled aside, revealing a score of tables surrounding four groaning benches, piled high with roast sirloins of beef and soaring Yorkshire puddings, glistening crimson suckling pigs, barons of lamb, massive roast chickens, steaming steak and kidney pies and an array of delectably prepared vegetables. There was something of a rush as the arrayed journalists and Royal Marines descended upon the provender, approvingly observed by the Royal Marine halfling cooks, whose hairy feet seemed to fairly bristle with pride at the appreciation for their culinary handiwork.
Tom, having piled his plate higher than he would have expected possible, (all that tossing and turning on the sea seemed to have had some positive affect on him after all) took found a place at one of the corner tables so that he could observe the goings on around the room when he found him next to a familiar face.
"Halloo there, Mr. Fowler! Enjoy your morning?" It was that friendly newspaperman from the Thunderer, Bailey. He seemed to be quite pleased to remake his acquaintance with Tom.
"I'm not sure anyone ever enjoyed a morning on the Somme, so it seemed hardly sporting to change that."
"Rather; I knew a few chaps back in the last war who did their bit there during the first time around. Damned tough place in every stretch of the word, they said. Five thousand men gone on the first day for barely half a dozen miles...still, we won through in the end, just like last time."
"Where did you serve in the last one?"
"Normandy, Holland, Germany, then Berlin. Much less time in a trench in France than the poor sods in the Great War, but a fairly sticky one at times, at least until the breakout at the end of June from Argentan. Once we were through the Hun, they didn't stop until the Rhine."
Tom nodded thoughtfully, then looked again sharply at Bailey, who was doing terrific execution on a large slice of beef. "Simon Bailey. You're not that Bailey, are you?"
Now his neighbour looked up extremely coolly, even putting down his cutlery. "I'm not at all sure what you mean, old boy."
"Lake Toplitz. Heinrich Himmler. One hundred Waffen SS."
Bailey held his poker face for an instant and then relented, going back to carving his beef. "Honestly, of all the things, of all the places, of all the times...I wager I'll never be rid of it. Anyway, yes, that was I, although the stories are much exaggerated. There were only forty-four of them and I wasn't alone."
"Whatever the circumstances, it is an honour to meet you, sir." Tom went to extend a hand, but Simon waved it away with a wave of the mustard.
"Don't start with all that - you'll get the cousins excited. Anyway, good to see you survived your time on one of Her Majesty's smaller ships; I managed to luck it out on the old Kenya, even if it is under new management. Shame that neither of our 'hosts' sent the Dutchmen flying, as it were."
"That was a bit of a shock to see all three of them sunk so quickly. It was almost as if those new missiles, the Black Bears, had been debuted to maximise their impact. I think that the Admiralty wanted to send a bit of a message to Moscow that they don't just need to worry about Nereus anymore."
"Clever lad. I think you might just be onto something there. If our adversaries are a bit more circumspect about the prospects below the waves in the Atlantic, then they might be a bit more circumspect here on land."
"How does the situation here in Germany strike you? Although there are more troops on the ground in Germany now, the Soviets still outnumber and outgun them."
"So it would seem. For all the talk that we have the edge in technology, and I would contend that we still control that in the key areas and weapon systems, the Red Army is catching up more and more. However, with the edge in the air and the quality of our tanks and those of the Americans, we are out in front, I'd say."
"You'd be the expert on that, after all. Thinking of using what you see here in an update for your book?"
"My, aren't you well read? I wager we'll see a few more of those when we finally get handed over to the Army. It isn't them I've really come to see, though; there's supposed to be a few impressive things to see after luncheon."
..........................................................................................................................................................
Impressive was probably an understatement.
Spread out across scattered wooded copses that dotted the German fields were four huge self-propelled guns, covered in camouflage netting and surrounded by hurrying crews. Barrels over ninety foot long jutted out into the skies and, on cue, roared in unison, sending their mighty shells hurtling towards the east. These were the big guns of the Heavy Siege Batteries of the Royal Marine Artillery, the defenders of the Kiel Canal and the German Baltic Coast, each capable of sinking a battleship or smashing an invasion fleet. They were equipped with both these conventional shells, now slashing through the heights of the atmosphere towards their target range off the coast of Fehmarn, and the nuclear ones carefully protected in the British bases.
Again the guns spoke, a second volley crashing out with a tearing explosive noise so loud that Tom had to cover his ears. Somewhere almost 90 miles away, a colony of seabirds were still squawking in outrage as they flapped northwards to their new hunting grounds, having eventually been persuaded by the enchantments of a shapeshifting Royal Marine wizard. The rumbling guns now moved out from their initial firing positions far faster than Tom would have thought, followed by their escort of self-propelled surface-to-air guided missiles and mobile anti-aircraft guns.
In wartime, would these behemoths be able to get off more than a few rounds? Brigadier Hurricane and the Royal Marines seemed to think they would, dropping a few guarded hints about illusory misdirection dweomers, but Tom wasn't as completely convinced as some of his colleagues. However, those handful of volleys would be more than enough to devastate the enemy. It would really depend upon protecting them from what could come from above.
High, high up in the now-brilliant blue morning skies, flying back towards the west was the now familiar sight of a TSR-2 Eagle.
Now it was the RAF's turn.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Oct 16, 2019 18:34:34 GMT
Liked it although when I read I immediately thought did he mean Shatner? Like Simon I have doubts about how long such huge fixed guns would last, especially if things went nuclear but potentially they could do a hell of a lot of damage if given a big enough target.
We we learn more about what Simon got up to at Lake Toplitz or has it been mentioned before and I've forgotten? Sounds like he caught/killed a top Nazi.
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simon darkshade
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Post by simon darkshade on Oct 16, 2019 23:39:07 GMT
The Canadian journalist in question is Morley Safer, well known for his 1965 report from South Vietnam, 'The Burning of Cam Ne', as well as his later work on 60 Minutes in the US. He did cover Suez for CBC in 1956 historically, so provided an opportunity to reflect on a very different conflict.
Essentially, the British shut down and jammed all attempts to broadcast out of Egypt beyond their own sources, as well as keeping their attached journalists under extremely tight control. The information war was seen as vitally important.
The RMA guns are not static, but self propelled, akin to the Soviet Kondensators, albeit a bit faster. Their role is similar to the US Army M65 atomic cannon from @, with a particular secondary purpose of coastal defence. Their presence is more testament to interservice rivalry between the RN and Army than operational necessity.
Bailey captured Himmler there in part of the post VE Day mop up operations after the Fall of Berlin. Some details have been given in Never Had it So Good and 1947's Singapore Sling. As he says, he wasn't alone, but worked from ambush with a small patrol of half a dozen men and an SOE agent; after other Nazis had attempted the poison tooth escape, the response was to knock him out and then knock/pull out every tooth. As said in Singapore Sling, the Office of the Witchfinder General was not at all keen to hand over dear Heinrich to the International Military Tribunal, intending a warmer fate for him.
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simon darkshade
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Post by simon darkshade on Oct 19, 2019 13:03:47 GMT
Notes on Part 3
- The German fleet was one of several significant sticking points in Anglo-German and Franco-German relations in the 1950s. - Safer's account of the fighting in Egypt both gives a hint of the heavy-handed approach and the emphasis placed on control of the press. The added suggestion is that this is now the policy being followed by the US in South Vietnam, which would have a bearing on public perceptions of that campaign. - The Germans were not permitted coastal artillery on the North Sea and, by the time they were rearming, there were better options for the Baltic. They are taking an approach that combines 105mm tank gun turrets, mobile howitzers and anti-ship missiles, as well as looking into some potential acquisition of modern Swedish coastal defence guns. - Fortress Hamburg is largely a creation of the media, but reflects the heavy defences of Germany beyond the border and Berlin Wall. - The Alvis Sphinx is a 6x6 wheeled armoured personnel carrier designed for support roles and general transport. - Brigadier Hurricane is a character from a 1960s-70s British comic series. - RMFG, whilst it is a token forward-positioned force, plays an important force multiplier for the German Marines and Territorial Heer units with their heavy armour. - A few snippets on WW1 and WW2 come courtesy of Bailey - the Battle of the Somme having 5000 killed on the first day and a British breakout at Argentan at the end of June. The latter is the the offhand accompaniment to the much more significant US Army breakout, but pushes through to the Seine in fairly short order. - The Black Bears are a broad equivalent to the US Subroc in role and performance. - Bailey is changing his opinion on the relative quality of the Red Army threat as time goes by; this story is set in 1963, so there have been some improvements since Sam Johnson's visit in June 1961.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Oct 19, 2019 13:16:12 GMT
Notes on Part 3 - The German fleet was one of several significant sticking points in Anglo-German and Franco-German relations in the 1950s. - Safer's account of the fighting in Egypt both gives a hint of the heavy-handed approach and the emphasis placed on control of the press. The added suggestion is that this is now the policy being followed by the US in South Vietnam, which would have a bearing on public perceptions of that campaign. - The Germans were not permitted coastal artillery on the North Sea and, by the time they were rearming, there were better options for the Baltic. They are taking an approach that combines 105mm tank gun turrets, mobile howitzers and anti-ship missiles, as well as looking into some potential acquisition of modern Swedish coastal defence guns. - Fortress Hamburg is largely a creation of the media, but reflects the heavy defences of Germany beyond the border and Berlin Wall. - The Alvis Sphinx is a 6x6 wheeled armoured personnel carrier designed for support roles and general transport. - Brigadier Hurricane is a character from a 1960s-70s British comic series. - RMFG, whilst it is a token forward-positioned force, plays an important force multiplier for the German Marines and Territorial Heer units with their heavy armour. - A few snippets on WW1 and WW2 come courtesy of Bailey - the Battle of the Somme having 5000 killed on the first day and a British breakout at Argentan at the end of June. The latter is the the offhand accompaniment to the much more significant US Army breakout, but pushes through to the Seine in fairly short order. - The Black Bears are a broad equivalent to the US Subroc in role and performance. - Bailey is changing his opinion on the relative quality of the Red Army threat as time goes by; this story is set in 1963, so there have been some improvements since Sam Johnson's visit in June 1961.
I have a feeling I remember him from my childhood, albeit at a somewhat lower rank IIRC Just checked with Wiki and he was a Captain then. Was he the one who always tended to call the Nazis Nasties?
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simon darkshade
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Post by simon darkshade on Oct 19, 2019 14:01:32 GMT
He was a Captain during the war; not too sure about his use of that particular term, as he had a broad vocabulary in the ones I've seen. He seemed a good fit as a RM officer of the right vintage.
RMFG would be reinforced by British and US Marine brigades in wartime, providing further defence in depth.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Oct 19, 2019 15:37:37 GMT
He was a Captain during the war; not too sure about his use of that particular term, as he had a broad vocabulary in the ones I've seen. He seemed a good fit as a RM officer of the right vintage. RMFG would be reinforced by British and US Marine brigades in wartime, providing further defence in depth.
Could have been someone else. In the last 60's and early 70's when I was reading comics there was a fair number of WWII related stories and characters and talking about it just reminded me of one character doing that.
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simon darkshade
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Post by simon darkshade on Oct 20, 2019 2:10:32 GMT
There were quite a few from the time that were still around into the 1980s, such as the Commando comics.
One thing I'm trying to explore here, as well as giving a snapshot of British forces repositioning themselves towards a Continental role, is to give some little insights into the general defence posture of Germany.
Given that the usual Cold War posture built along the Inner German Border is definitely not at play here, with the initial line of resistance positioned along the Oder-Neisse Line. The next major stopline consists a line based around the Mecklenburg and West Pomeranian lakes in NORTHAG. and the Elbe Line in CENTAG; Berlin is in its own defensive command between the two army groups in Germany.
The terrain of NORTHAG is rather more difficult to defend than CENTAG per se, which therefore requires a greater concentration of land and air forces.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Oct 20, 2019 10:22:07 GMT
There were quite a few from the time that were still around into the 1980s, such as the Commando comics. One thing I'm trying to explore here, as well as giving a snapshot of British forces repositioning themselves towards a Continental role, is to give some little insights into the general defence posture of Germany. Given that the usual Cold War posture built along the Inner German Border is definitely not at play here, with the initial line of resistance positioned along the Oder-Neisse Line. The next major stopline consists a line based around the Mecklenburg and West Pomeranian lakes in NORTHAG. and the Elbe Line in CENTAG; Berlin is in its own defensive command between the two army groups in Germany. The terrain of NORTHAG is rather more difficult to defend than CENTAG per se, which therefore requires a greater concentration of land and air forces.
Well that's another blast from the past, the old Commando, Battle and a couple of other brands that IIRC were only a shilling/5p. Used to have hundreds of them and probably worth a package if I still had them. A lot of were rather belligerent and simplest but some good telling points at times as well.
No doubt your said but I can't remember. Is Germany here restricted to the same borders as OTL or does it had some territory beyond the Oder? IIRC its still Soviet occupied Poland to its east, although the survival of the Hapsburg empire means a shorter German line as long as Austria manages to hold.
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Post by simon darkshade on Oct 20, 2019 11:30:14 GMT
They were good little stories for their intended market, without any especially great pretensions at sophistication. They may be worth a little bit; a fair few were reprinted around 15 years ago in a series of softback collations that are still out there. I did like them, albeit reading them rather later on in the 80s and 90s, as they were interesting artifacts of their time. I might have to find a few and raid them for some ideas.
Another great source I've found is old Eagle Annuals, which have a range of interesting late 60s fiction for boys. The pride in my collection is a number of ~95 year old copies of Union Jack (or, to use its byline 'Sexton Blake's Own Storypaper') which are worth looking through just for the advertisements alone.
The German border does lie on the Oder-Neisse Line. I did give thought to a border further east back around 9-10 years ago, but resolved on the O-N Line because that particular river barrier is the most logical meeting point for the Allies and Soviets in 1945. It makes little sense to forge ahead into Posen/Pomerania/Silesia when the great prizes of Berlin, Leipzig, Prague et al are in hand. The main factor at play is the pace of the Soviet advance, which speeds up as they progressively destroy the Ostheer in the Western Soviet Union and Poland.
The key change comes in 1943:
Stalingrad (September 1942-February 1943) Kharkov-Belgorod Offensive/Donets Campaign (German counteroffensive March-June 1943) Rzhev-Vitebsk (Soviet offensive February-May 1943) Smolensk Offensive (Soviet Offensive June-September 1943) Battle of Orel (August-October 1943)
- No major German summer offensive due to logistical constraints, Allied bombing and the Mediterranean Theatre, but rather a series of 3-4 localized backhanded offensives to pin down Red Army reserves while the Panther-Wotan Line is built up.
- 3rd Kharkov forces the Soviet back to a line of Voronezh to Izyum, with the Soviets pushing back to Belgorod-Kursk-Bryansk by the end of the year.
- Two German corps at Orel are encircled by the Red Army, relieved by a German counter offensive and pull back to Bryansk.
- German forces pushed back from Rzhev salient, abandoning the threat to Moscow and the strategic initiative.
- Soviet offensive liberates Smolensk at heavy cost.
1944 Battle of the Crimea (April-July 1944) Ukraine/Dneiper Offensive (March-July 1944) Kiev Offensive (September-December 1944) Baltic Offensive (June-September 1944) Operation Bagration/Battle of Belorussia (August-November 1944)
- The Panther-Wotan Line holds in the south until September and is broken at very great cost in the centre by Bagration.
- Concentrated Soviet offensives push the Germans out of the pre-Barbarossa borders by the end of the year.
1945 Niemen-Vistula Offensive/Warsaw Offensive (December 1944-February 1945) Poland Offensive (Advance from Vistula to Oder February-March 1945) East Prussian Offensive (January-February 1945) Carpathian Offensive (Liberation of Western Ukraine and Galicia January-March 1945) Danube Offensive (Conquest of Romania February-March 1945)
- In 2.5 months, the Red Army occupies Poland, East Prussia, Silesia, West Prussia, Pomerania, Galicia, Ruthenia and Romania, reaching a line of the Oder-Neisse, the Carpathians and the Danube.
Slowing down the Soviets only goes so far, particularly in Germany.
The situation in Austria-Hungary is different, with the very Allied slow advances through Italy and the Balkans eventually breaking through very, very quickly onto the Hungarian Plain in late 1944.
The Result - In the southeast, Eighth Army meets the Red Army in the Carpathians. - US Army and French troops advance through Bohemia into Slovakia, halting at the Polish-Austro-Hungarian border, as terrain makes breaking through into Poland very difficult. - The main body of the Western Allies break across the Rhine, surround the Ruhr and then strike for Berlin in four main attacks. This takes them to a natural line of the Oder. - British and Greek troops occupy Bulgaria after it flips in 1944, with Romania being left to the Soviets in a tacit agreement. - Stalin is very displeased. If the Allies had been held up for another 2 months in the West, the Red Army would have broken into Germany and taken Berlin. If they had been held up longer in Italy and not been able to advance up through Greece, he would have been able to take Austria-Hungary, Yugoslavia and Bulgaria.
As of 1963 and 1964, SOUTHAG's position in Austria-Hungary was far more secure. I'm still giving thought to the best options for their defence, though. Logic, logistics and politics entail that the French concentrate their forces in CENTAG, giving the main defensive role to the two A-H field armies, forward deployed corps from Italy and Spain/Portugal, the German Alpenkorps and two US corps.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Oct 20, 2019 12:05:05 GMT
They were good little stories for their intended market, without any especially great pretensions at sophistication. They may be worth a little bit; a fair few were reprinted around 15 years ago in a series of softback collations that are still out there. I did like them, albeit reading them rather later on in the 80s and 90s, as they were interesting artifacts of their time. I might have to find a few and raid them for some ideas. Another great source I've found is old Eagle Annuals, which have a range of interesting late 60s fiction for boys. The pride in my collection is a number of ~95 year old copies of Union Jack (or, to use its byline 'Sexton Blake's Own Storypaper') which are worth looking through just for the advertisements alone. The German border does lie on the Oder-Neisse Line. I did give thought to a border further east back around 9-10 years ago, but resolved on the O-N Line because that particular river barrier is the most logical meeting point for the Allies and Soviets in 1945. It makes little sense to forge ahead into Posen/Pomerania/Silesia when the great prizes of Berlin, Leipzig, Prague et al are in hand. The main factor at play is the pace of the Soviet advance, which speeds up as they progressively destroy the Ostheer in the Western Soviet Union and Poland. The key change comes in 1943: Stalingrad (September 1942-February 1943) Kharkov-Belgorod Offensive/Donets Campaign (German counteroffensive March-June 1943) Rzhev-Vitebsk (Soviet offensive February-May 1943) Smolensk Offensive (Soviet Offensive June-September 1943) Battle of Orel (August-October 1943) - No major German summer offensive due to logistical constraints, Allied bombing and the Mediterranean Theatre, but rather a series of 3-4 localized backhanded offensives to pin down Red Army reserves while the Panther-Wotan Line is built up. - 3rd Kharkov forces the Soviet back to a line of Voronezh to Izyum, with the Soviets pushing back to Belgorod-Kursk-Bryansk by the end of the year. - Two German corps at Orel are encircled by the Red Army, relieved by a German counter offensive and pull back to Bryansk. - German forces pushed back from Rzhev salient, abandoning the threat to Moscow and the strategic initiative. - Soviet offensive liberates Smolensk at heavy cost. 1944 Battle of the Crimea (April-July 1944) Ukraine/Dneiper Offensive (March-July 1944) Kiev Offensive (September-December 1944) Baltic Offensive (June-September 1944) Operation Bagration/Battle of Belorussia (August-November 1944) - The Panther-Wotan Line holds in the south until September and is broken at very great cost in the centre by Bagration. - Concentrated Soviet offensives push the Germans out of the pre-Barbarossa borders by the end of the year. 1945 Niemen-Vistula Offensive/Warsaw Offensive (December 1944-February 1945) Poland Offensive (Advance from Vistula to Oder February-March 1945) East Prussian Offensive (January-February 1945) Carpathian Offensive (Liberation of Western Ukraine and Galicia January-March 1945) Danube Offensive (Conquest of Romania February-March 1945) - In 2.5 months, the Red Army occupies Poland, East Prussia, Silesia, West Prussia, Pomerania, Galicia, Ruthenia and Romania, reaching a line of the Oder-Neisse, the Carpathians and the Danube. Slowing down the Soviets only goes so far, particularly in Germany. The situation in Austria-Hungary is different, with the very Allied slow advances through Italy and the Balkans eventually breaking through very, very quickly onto the Hungarian Plain in late 1944. The Result- In the southeast, Eighth Army meets the Red Army in the Carpathians. - US Army and French troops advance through Bohemia into Slovakia, halting at the Polish-Austro-Hungarian border, as terrain makes breaking through into Poland very difficult. - The main body of the Western Allies break across the Rhine, surround the Ruhr and then strike for Berlin in four main attacks. This takes them to a natural line of the Oder. - British and Greek troops occupy Bulgaria after it flips in 1944, with Romania being left to the Soviets in a tacit agreement. - Stalin is very displeased. If the Allies had been held up for another 2 months in the West, the Red Army would have broken into Germany and taken Berlin. If they had been held up longer in Italy and not been able to advance up through Greece, he would have been able to take Austria-Hungary, Yugoslavia and Bulgaria. As of 1963 and 1964, SOUTHAG's position in Austria-Hungary was far more secure. I'm still giving thought to the best options for their defence, though. Logic, logistics and politics entail that the French concentrate their forces in CENTAG, giving the main defensive role to the two A-H field armies, forward deployed corps from Italy and Spain/Portugal, the German Alpenkorps and two US corps.
Yes the allies have more territory with a defensive line for Austria along the Carpathians but with Romanian and Yugoslavia in Soviet hands its a very vulnerable salient. From the use of the name Yugoslavia does the latter including not only Bosnia-HZ but also Croatia? Ditto did Romania gain Transylvania? Those would both reduce the Austrian territory and their defensive position. Also is there a Tito or is Yugoslavia clearly under Moscow's control?
It sounds like Austria is mainly being supported by the US and Italy - the latter possibly being a bit awkward - whereas its Britain and France as the primarily supporters of the shorter German front line.
Unfortunately I gave up my comics of the old war mags about 40 years ago. IIRC and its all very distant now I passed them onto a younger relative as they were cluttering up some space and I was leaving my mum's home.
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