stevep
Fleet admiral
Posts: 23,548
Likes: 12,151
|
Post by stevep on May 29, 2019 16:41:09 GMT
Reading Lordroel's WWII in real time reports this occurred to me. What if the British Isles and territory/associated waters along with all forces in them from 26-5-44, building up for Operation Overlord suddenly found themselves 4 years earlier? Taken the 26th May as the date Britain started Operation Dynamo, the evacuation of forces from Dunkirk?
In theory, given they react quickly enough the allies might successfully hold the Dunkirk pocket, at least long enough to land other forces in still undefeated France and have them smash the German forces and relieve at least most of France. Then after a pause hopefully drive eastwards and liberate the low countries and possibly end the war pretty quickly.
On the other hand there are going to be problems. The status of the large US forces in Britain are going to be awkward as many of them will think of themselves as allies and a large number will have experience of fighting alongside the British/Empire forces but technically the US is neutral at this point and what happens with those forces and their equipment. Especially since for most of them, as for some Brits and others there will be younger duplicates in the rest of the 1940 world.
Also 1944 Britain is heavily dependent on Lend-Lease and a complex series of trade and supply links, especially with the US, that are largely not in place yet so they could have problems maintaining their capabilities. There is a lot of shipping crossing the oceans and some escorts but the sophisticated and well equipped convoy escort system and ASW facilities have largely disappeared other than those units in the coastal waters brought along. Ditto that a lot of British and allied equipment is supplied by the US and there could be questions over ownership - to which Britain could counter yes its from the US but not this US as it wasn't built there. Similarly does Britain 44 owe anything to US 40 for supplies and goods
In the wider issue there are a lot of butterflies. Does Italy still enter the conflict or suddenly realise it may not be a good idea? If so does Britain 'respect' their neutrality - I suspect so but there could be tensions. What does Britain and the up-time Americans and others affected do about Japan and the situation in the Far East and how much would they be believed, at least at 1st in Washington especially. How does Stalin respond to the change, especially when he gets contacted by the 1944 Soviet embassy and other Soviet elements brought along?
Anyway nothing thought out but just an idea for possible discussion.
|
|
lordroel
Administrator
Member is Online
Posts: 65,079
Likes: 46,284
|
Post by lordroel on May 29, 2019 17:19:48 GMT
Reading Lordroel's WWII in real time reports this occurred to me. What if the British Isles and territory/associated waters along with all forces in them from 26-5-44, building up for Operation Overlord suddenly found themselves 4 years earlier? Taken the 26th May as the date Britain started Operation Dynamo, the evacuation of forces from Dunkirk? In theory, given they react quickly enough the allies might successfully hold the Dunkirk pocket, at least long enough to land other forces in still undefeated France and have them smash the German forces and relieve at least most of France. Then after a pause hopefully drive eastwards and liberate the low countries and possibly end the war pretty quickly. On the other hand there are going to be problems. The status of the large US forces in Britain are going to be awkward as many of them will think of themselves as allies and a large number will have experience of fighting alongside the British/Empire forces but technically the US is neutral at this point and what happens with those forces and their equipment. Especially since for most of them, as for some Brits and others there will be younger duplicates in the rest of the 1940 world. Also 1944 Britain is heavily dependent on Lend-Lease and a complex series of trade and supply links, especially with the US, that are largely not in place yet so they could have problems maintaining their capabilities. There is a lot of shipping crossing the oceans and some escorts but the sophisticated and well equipped convoy escort system and ASW facilities have largely disappeared other than those units in the coastal waters brought along. Ditto that a lot of British and allied equipment is supplied by the US and there could be questions over ownership - to which Britain could counter yes its from the US but not this US as it wasn't built there. Similarly does Britain 44 owe anything to US 40 for supplies and goods
In the wider issue there are a lot of butterflies. Does Italy still enter the conflict or suddenly realise it may not be a good idea? If so does Britain 'respect' their neutrality - I suspect so but there could be tensions. What does Britain and the up-time Americans and others affected do about Japan and the situation in the Far East and how much would they be believed, at least at 1st in Washington especially. How does Stalin respond to the change, especially when he gets contacted by the 1944 Soviet embassy and other Soviet elements brought along? Anyway nothing thought out but just an idea for possible discussion.
Operation Overlord 1940 style but with the British,Free French and Canadians landing in the Dunkirk holdout, the 1944 Americans will first have to deal with a 1940 Roosevelt before they can join in, but the 1944 British will be able to keep Dunkirk and expand it if needed alone.
|
|
James G
Squadron vice admiral
Posts: 7,608
Likes: 8,821
|
Post by James G on May 29, 2019 17:34:17 GMT
Reading Lordroel's WWII in real time reports this occurred to me. What if the British Isles and territory/associated waters along with all forces in them from 26-5-44, building up for Operation Overlord suddenly found themselves 4 years earlier? Taken the 26th May as the date Britain started Operation Dynamo, the evacuation of forces from Dunkirk? In theory, given they react quickly enough the allies might successfully hold the Dunkirk pocket, at least long enough to land other forces in still undefeated France and have them smash the German forces and relieve at least most of France. Then after a pause hopefully drive eastwards and liberate the low countries and possibly end the war pretty quickly. On the other hand there are going to be problems. The status of the large US forces in Britain are going to be awkward as many of them will think of themselves as allies and a large number will have experience of fighting alongside the British/Empire forces but technically the US is neutral at this point and what happens with those forces and their equipment. Especially since for most of them, as for some Brits and others there will be younger duplicates in the rest of the 1940 world. Also 1944 Britain is heavily dependent on Lend-Lease and a complex series of trade and supply links, especially with the US, that are largely not in place yet so they could have problems maintaining their capabilities. There is a lot of shipping crossing the oceans and some escorts but the sophisticated and well equipped convoy escort system and ASW facilities have largely disappeared other than those units in the coastal waters brought along. Ditto that a lot of British and allied equipment is supplied by the US and there could be questions over ownership - to which Britain could counter yes its from the US but not this US as it wasn't built there. Similarly does Britain 44 owe anything to US 40 for supplies and goods
In the wider issue there are a lot of butterflies. Does Italy still enter the conflict or suddenly realise it may not be a good idea? If so does Britain 'respect' their neutrality - I suspect so but there could be tensions. What does Britain and the up-time Americans and others affected do about Japan and the situation in the Far East and how much would they be believed, at least at 1st in Washington especially. How does Stalin respond to the change, especially when he gets contacted by the 1944 Soviet embassy and other Soviet elements brought along? Anyway nothing thought out but just an idea for possible discussion.
Operation Overlord 1940 style but with the British,Free French and Canadians landing in the Dunkirk holdout, the 1944 Americans will first have to deal with a 1940 Roosevelt before they can join in, but the 1944 British will be able to keep Dunkirk and expand it if needed alone. I agree. With Dunkirk held, even the dire state it is in, that is a beachhead of excellent proportions. One of the first things I'd expect done would be to stop it falling even if no bigger decisions are made on other matters. Keep it, then deal with everything else.
|
|
lordroel
Administrator
Member is Online
Posts: 65,079
Likes: 46,284
|
Post by lordroel on May 29, 2019 18:09:01 GMT
Operation Overlord 1940 style but with the British,Free French and Canadians landing in the Dunkirk holdout, the 1944 Americans will first have to deal with a 1940 Roosevelt before they can join in, but the 1944 British will be able to keep Dunkirk and expand it if needed alone. I agree. With Dunkirk held, even the dire state it is in, that is a beachhead of excellent proportions. One of the first things I'd expect done would be to stop it falling even if no bigger decisions are made on other matters. Keep it, then deal with everything else. Looking at this map of May 26th 1940, the 1944 British will need to hit hard to stabilize the Dunkirk pocket, but then again the 1944 British where training to hit 1944 German occupied France, so 1940 German troops are going to be tough but not hopeless.
|
|
stevep
Fleet admiral
Posts: 23,548
Likes: 12,151
|
Post by stevep on May 30, 2019 10:16:16 GMT
Guys Assuming that the allies [excluding the US for the moment as their position would be awkward] would want to secure the Dunkirk pocket but would that be the main focus? Some ground forces and a hell of a lot of air power to help hold it and pound the German forces, as well as draw the Luftwaffe into a shredding operation given the vastly greater numbers and capacity of the 44 UK. However wouldn't it make more sense with the main forces landing in unoccupied France where their not feeding into a small pocket much of which is in range of German artillery and where they can link up with and rally the still substantial French 40 forces? This means they can land at uncontested ports, have room to maneuver and Dunkirk can be the anvil for any German forces west of it as the British and allied armies drive eastwards. Other than withdrawing eastwards, which you could guess Hitler's reaction to they wouldn't have much option.
Although what happens when both de Gaulle's get together, that would be an interesting meeting and class of egos.
As I said it wouldn't be all plain sailing as Britain has less total manpower in 44 after 5 years of bitter warfare and with many deployed elsewhere. Plus there would be substantial disruption of supplies and the like, especially if a still strongly isolationist US Congress reacts badly to a markedly more powerful Britain suddenly appearing and giving the Germans a real kicking. Not too nastily but I can't see them agreeing to reinstalling the Lend-Lease arrangement that Britain was largely dependent on at this stage. Although this does mean that Britain could ignore any debts to the US after 26-5-40.
With the American forces in Britain I can see some at least being willing to volunteer for service with the allies if the US decides the war isn't any of its business. After all their not formally part of the US 40 military so strictly speaking US 40 has no legal control over them and they have been members of the alliance for ~30 months by this stage.
Steve
|
|
lordroel
Administrator
Member is Online
Posts: 65,079
Likes: 46,284
|
Post by lordroel on May 30, 2019 11:39:16 GMT
Guys Assuming that the allies [excluding the US for the moment as their position would be awkward] would want to secure the Dunkirk pocket but would that be the main focus? Some ground forces and a hell of a lot of air power to help hold it and pound the German forces, as well as draw the Luftwaffe into a shredding operation given the vastly greater numbers and capacity of the 44 UK. However wouldn't it make more sense with the main forces landing in unoccupied France where their not feeding into a small pocket much of which is in range of German artillery and where they can link up with and rally the still substantial French 40 forces? This means they can land at uncontested ports, have room to maneuver and Dunkirk can be the anvil for any German forces west of it as the British and allied armies drive eastwards. Other than withdrawing eastwards, which you could guess Hitler's reaction to they wouldn't have much option. Although what happens when both de Gaulle's get together, that would be an interesting meeting and class of egos. As I said it wouldn't be all plain sailing as Britain has less total manpower in 44 after 5 years of bitter warfare and with many deployed elsewhere. Plus there would be substantial disruption of supplies and the like, especially if a still strongly isolationist US Congress reacts badly to a markedly more powerful Britain suddenly appearing and giving the Germans a real kicking. Not too nastily but I can't see them agreeing to reinstalling the Lend-Lease arrangement that Britain was largely dependent on at this stage. Although this does mean that Britain could ignore any debts to the US after 26-5-40.
With the American forces in Britain I can see some at least being willing to volunteer for service with the allies if the US decides the war isn't any of its business. After all their not formally part of the US 40 military so strictly speaking US 40 has no legal control over them and they have been members of the alliance for ~30 months by this stage. Steve Well if the 1944 British, Canadians and Free French land in Normandy as planned then it will relieve the Dunkirk pockets as the Germans now have to deal with a new threat.
|
|
stevep
Fleet admiral
Posts: 23,548
Likes: 12,151
|
Post by stevep on May 30, 2019 23:03:50 GMT
Guys Assuming that the allies [excluding the US for the moment as their position would be awkward] would want to secure the Dunkirk pocket but would that be the main focus? Some ground forces and a hell of a lot of air power to help hold it and pound the German forces, as well as draw the Luftwaffe into a shredding operation given the vastly greater numbers and capacity of the 44 UK. However wouldn't it make more sense with the main forces landing in unoccupied France where their not feeding into a small pocket much of which is in range of German artillery and where they can link up with and rally the still substantial French 40 forces? This means they can land at uncontested ports, have room to maneuver and Dunkirk can be the anvil for any German forces west of it as the British and allied armies drive eastwards. Other than withdrawing eastwards, which you could guess Hitler's reaction to they wouldn't have much option. Although what happens when both de Gaulle's get together, that would be an interesting meeting and class of egos. As I said it wouldn't be all plain sailing as Britain has less total manpower in 44 after 5 years of bitter warfare and with many deployed elsewhere. Plus there would be substantial disruption of supplies and the like, especially if a still strongly isolationist US Congress reacts badly to a markedly more powerful Britain suddenly appearing and giving the Germans a real kicking. Not too nastily but I can't see them agreeing to reinstalling the Lend-Lease arrangement that Britain was largely dependent on at this stage. Although this does mean that Britain could ignore any debts to the US after 26-5-40.
With the American forces in Britain I can see some at least being willing to volunteer for service with the allies if the US decides the war isn't any of its business. After all their not formally part of the US 40 military so strictly speaking US 40 has no legal control over them and they have been members of the alliance for ~30 months by this stage. Steve Well if the 1944 British, Canadians and Free French land in Normandy as planned then it will relieve the Dunkirk pockets as the Germans now have to deal with a new threat.
It should do as if they can't crush it very quickly their in for a hell of a time. However would definitely say that while supporting it is important, both for maintaining it and also boosting French and possibly other W European morale the main effort should be landing in the west, quite possibly in places like Normandy and driving east to relieve it. Should be a lot easier without having to fight their way ashore and with the infrastructure not pounded to ruins in many places. Also the Herr are going to find out what's its like trying to operate in the face of overwhelming enemy air power and don't think their going to like it.
|
|
lordroel
Administrator
Member is Online
Posts: 65,079
Likes: 46,284
|
Post by lordroel on May 31, 2019 7:28:56 GMT
Well if the 1944 British, Canadians and Free French land in Normandy as planned then it will relieve the Dunkirk pockets as the Germans now have to deal with a new threat. It should do as if they can't crush it very quickly their in for a hell of a time. However would definitely say that while supporting it is important, both for maintaining it and also boosting French and possibly other W European morale the main effort should be landing in the west, quite possibly in places like Normandy and driving east to relieve it. Should be a lot easier without having to fight their way ashore and with the infrastructure not pounded to ruins in many places. Also the Herr are going to find out what's its like trying to operate in the face of overwhelming enemy air power and don't think their going to like it. What about just sending in the British 6th Airborne Division to the Dunkirk pocket, maybe behind the German lines, this will give the British,French forces in the Dunkirk pocket some time to recognize.
|
|
stevep
Fleet admiral
Posts: 23,548
Likes: 12,151
|
Post by stevep on May 31, 2019 9:46:18 GMT
It should do as if they can't crush it very quickly their in for a hell of a time. However would definitely say that while supporting it is important, both for maintaining it and also boosting French and possibly other W European morale the main effort should be landing in the west, quite possibly in places like Normandy and driving east to relieve it. Should be a lot easier without having to fight their way ashore and with the infrastructure not pounded to ruins in many places. Also the Herr are going to find out what's its like trying to operate in the face of overwhelming enemy air power and don't think their going to like it. What about just sending in the British 6th Airborne Division to the Dunkirk pocket, maybe behind the German lines, this will give the British,French forces in the Dunkirk pocket some time to recognize.
I'm not a military expert but I would be very dubious about that. Paras are light units not intended for prolonged heavy combat so they wouldn't last long and it would be a waste of a very expense and potentially powerful unit as well as the men involved. Using them as part of the counter attack from the west, to disrupt the German ability to respond or possibly to cut off their retreat would be a different issue and they could be very effective there.
Think the key point would be to pound the Germans hard with air and naval power and also ensure that the Luftwaffe can't launch any real attacks. Also let the troops know what's happening and that instead of withdrawing they should stay and reinforcements will be on the way. Some units would be sent to boost their defence along with new equipment and supplies for the units there - although there might be some problems there with 44 equipment while being a lot more effective not being something the defenders are familiar with. However not sure there is room for a lot of forces to operate freely and to best effect plus putting the major forces further west helps secure the French and keep them fighting.
Would have some of the more battered units and of course any wounded evacuating on the ships that bring in reinforcements but I think they and their equipment are best used where they are in the defensive positions already at least partly in place.
Possibly also some bombing raids on the Rhur and other parts of Germany. The defences the Germans had in 40 are likely to be massively overwhelmed by the 44 BC although its likely to cause a hell of a lot of devastation which could well cause criticism from down-timers. Also even the most destructive attacks can have negative attacks on enemy morale, i.e. in this case making them more determined to fight.
|
|
lordroel
Administrator
Member is Online
Posts: 65,079
Likes: 46,284
|
Post by lordroel on May 31, 2019 10:10:00 GMT
Possibly also some bombing raids on the Rhur and other parts of Germany. The defences the Germans had in 40 are likely to be massively overwhelmed by the 44 BC although its likely to cause a hell of a lot of devastation which could well cause criticism from down-timers. Also even the most destructive attacks can have negative attacks on enemy morale, i.e. in this case making them more determined to fight.
Think the RAF 1944 is more capable than the RAF 1940. The Germans are going to be surprised and shock to see 1944 Avro Lancaster doing massive bombing raids on 1940 German cities who have not experience those raid in those numbers yet.
|
|
stevep
Fleet admiral
Posts: 23,548
Likes: 12,151
|
Post by stevep on May 31, 2019 11:31:29 GMT
Possibly also some bombing raids on the Rhur and other parts of Germany. The defences the Germans had in 40 are likely to be massively overwhelmed by the 44 BC although its likely to cause a hell of a lot of devastation which could well cause criticism from down-timers. Also even the most destructive attacks can have negative attacks on enemy morale, i.e. in this case making them more determined to fight.
Think the RAF 1944 is more capable than the RAF 1940. The Germans are going to be surprised and shock to see 1944 Avro Lancaster doing massive bombing raids on 1940 German cities who have not experience those raid in those numbers yet.
Definitely more capable and carrying a hell of a lot more bombs. Plus at this point the Germans have no real air defence system against such attacks. I suspect it might be overkill and without the knowledge of what 'happens' in the next four years will be seen as a war crime by many in the western world.
I saw your update on this day in WWII and thinking about what some Tempest ground attack squadrons could do to Rommel's division strung out in tempting lines like that, not to mention if they caught his a/c. That would be a slaughter I suspect especially since the Germans aren't really used to facing massive air attacks at this point.
|
|
lordroel
Administrator
Member is Online
Posts: 65,079
Likes: 46,284
|
Post by lordroel on May 31, 2019 12:30:33 GMT
Think the RAF 1944 is more capable than the RAF 1940. The Germans are going to be surprised and shock to see 1944 Avro Lancaster doing massive bombing raids on 1940 German cities who have not experience those raid in those numbers yet. Definitely more capable and carrying a hell of a lot more bombs. Plus at this point the Germans have no real air defence system against such attacks. I suspect it might be overkill and without the knowledge of what 'happens' in the next four years will be seen as a war crime by many in the western world. I saw your update on this day in WWII and thinking about what some Tempest ground attack squadrons could do to Rommel's division strung out in tempting lines like that, not to mention if they caught his a/c. That would be a slaughter I suspect especially since the Germans aren't really used to facing massive air attacks at this point.
If we use the Battle of Berlin (RAF campaign) and the mission below as a example, the RAF of 1944 will be a force 1940 Luftwaffe has never encounter before, this might relieve the Battle of France as bit as the 1940 Germans will be forced to pull back fighter squadrons for homeland defense. Night of 30/31 March 1944 Nuremberg attacked by 572 Lancasters, 214 Halifaxes and nine Mosquitos (795 aircraft).
|
|
stevep
Fleet admiral
Posts: 23,548
Likes: 12,151
|
Post by stevep on May 31, 2019 15:02:17 GMT
Definitely more capable and carrying a hell of a lot more bombs. Plus at this point the Germans have no real air defence system against such attacks. I suspect it might be overkill and without the knowledge of what 'happens' in the next four years will be seen as a war crime by many in the western world. I saw your update on this day in WWII and thinking about what some Tempest ground attack squadrons could do to Rommel's division strung out in tempting lines like that, not to mention if they caught his a/c. That would be a slaughter I suspect especially since the Germans aren't really used to facing massive air attacks at this point.
If we use the Battle of Berlin (RAF campaign) and the mission below as a example, the RAF of 1944 will be a force 1940 Luftwaffe has never encounter before, this might relieve the Battle of France as bit as the 1940 Germans will be forced to pull back fighter squadrons for homeland defense. Night of 30/31 March 1944 Nuremberg attacked by 572 Lancasters, 214 Halifaxes and nine Mosquitos (795 aircraft).
Not only that but the force could probably, at least for some targets in western Germany, go by day with long ranged fighter escorts, or simply still by night but with 1944 experience and technology probably be a lot more accurate than any raids in 40-41.
However what the RAF had for fighter and ground support in May/June 44 should be enough to stomp the 40 Luftwaffe, especially since the latter has already seen a fair bit of wear and tear. That's why I think the RN could also send in some of its heavier ships for bombardment of German positions. Even 6" and 8" cruiser guns would be a substantial shock to the Germans especially given the sort of accuracy they could probably provide once they get ground spotters in place. Both the Luftwaffe and the German forces around the pocket should be put through a mincer.
|
|
lordroel
Administrator
Member is Online
Posts: 65,079
Likes: 46,284
|
Post by lordroel on May 31, 2019 15:06:54 GMT
If we use the Battle of Berlin (RAF campaign) and the mission below as a example, the RAF of 1944 will be a force 1940 Luftwaffe has never encounter before, this might relieve the Battle of France as bit as the 1940 Germans will be forced to pull back fighter squadrons for homeland defense. Night of 30/31 March 1944 Nuremberg attacked by 572 Lancasters, 214 Halifaxes and nine Mosquitos (795 aircraft). Not only that but the force could probably, at least for some targets in western Germany, go by day with long ranged fighter escorts, or simply still by night but with 1944 experience and technology probably be a lot more accurate than any raids in 40-41.
However what the RAF had for fighter and ground support in May/June 44 should be enough to stomp the 40 Luftwaffe, especially since the latter has already seen a fair bit of wear and tear. That's why I think the RN could also send in some of its heavier ships for bombardment of German positions. Even 6" and 8" cruiser guns would be a substantial shock to the Germans especially given the sort of accuracy they could probably provide once they get ground spotters in place. Both the Luftwaffe and the German forces around the pocket should be put through a mincer.
That makes me wonder, will the Malta-class and Lion class be build, ore is the Royal Navy of 1944 which was in the United Kingdom enough to reinforce the British holdings in Asia.
|
|
stevep
Fleet admiral
Posts: 23,548
Likes: 12,151
|
Post by stevep on May 31, 2019 15:17:29 GMT
Not only that but the force could probably, at least for some targets in western Germany, go by day with long ranged fighter escorts, or simply still by night but with 1944 experience and technology probably be a lot more accurate than any raids in 40-41.
However what the RAF had for fighter and ground support in May/June 44 should be enough to stomp the 40 Luftwaffe, especially since the latter has already seen a fair bit of wear and tear. That's why I think the RN could also send in some of its heavier ships for bombardment of German positions. Even 6" and 8" cruiser guns would be a substantial shock to the Germans especially given the sort of accuracy they could probably provide once they get ground spotters in place. Both the Luftwaffe and the German forces around the pocket should be put through a mincer.
That makes me wonder, will the Malta-class and Lion class be build, ore is the Royal Navy of 1944 which was in the United Kingdom enough to reinforce the British holdings in Asia.
It would depend on how things go. Suspect the Lions won't as really surface capital ships have had their day, although possibly not completely clear by this time. The Malta's might if Britain is economically less exhausted. I.e. it still has access to the FE colonies and hopefully won't need to fight to defend them, should have decent relations with a far less battered France, and quite probably good ones with Norway, Denmark, Belgium and the Netherlands. Most of all since it can claim Britain 40's financial assets and avoid the debts built up by 44 as well as use some of the advances in technology, including in areas like radar, electronics in general jet engines etc.
One other fact that could play a part here is that possibly quite a number of the US people in the UK might end up staying as their position would be rather difficult in 40 US, as they try and mix in with their younger versions and families. Imagine if your got a wife back in the states who is now 4 years younger than you remember and married to a younger you? Or your family seems very outdated to the young man your become and possible rather parochial in comparison to your experience in the wider world. Or possibly trying to explain to the 40 you - that girl your hot on will run off with Joe while your off overseas? Plenty of scope for people to feel really uncomfortable if they return home.
|
|