raunchel
Commander
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Post by raunchel on Nov 29, 2018 9:42:28 GMT
It's complicated. On one hand, it will help against the English. On the other, they are Catholics. Unless the Protestants can be brought to rebel, but to be honest, that does seem to be more than a little unlikely. So is all of the Republic Protestant then. Almost the whole Republic indeed is Protestant. Although there are some minorities. Wonder if the Republic will be the one that helps the Irish rise up instead of the Germans.
Possibly but that would mean war with Britain while their already at war with the US and the Japanese - albeit that they seem to be drastically underestimating the latter. Also given their views on Catholics and if its the Dutch that bring war about that might be a unifying factor as OTL. Although it will lack the factor of protecting the independence of a small nation such as Belgium.
With the Dutch decision to attack the US I wonder if they realise what their taking on? Its got a much smaller fleet but with the tension with Britain and war in Japan, plus the general instability of Europe with the ongoing conflict they could have problems bringing enough to bear on the US. The USN does have the problem of little recent experience and also being very top heavy with relatively few scouting elements [destroyers/cruisers] compared to the BBs and heavy cruisers.
In terms of armies the US one is very small and its probably going to take at least a year before they can get a sizeable one in the field and the quality could be dubious given how much the regular army is diluted plus they won't have had the OTL advantage of sell supplies to the EPs for three years so it could also take a while to ramp up production. On the other hand they do have a bloody big industry and a population of 92M in 1910 and 106M by 1920 as well as access to most raw materials. It will also mean war with the US forces in the Pacific, including in the Philippines as the DEI occupy the southern part of that.
A lot will depend on the demographics of the Dutch colonies and overseas republics, both in total numbers and their racial distribution. Given the mistrust of blacks, which is pretty much the same in the US at this stage and the question of how many people in the Dutch lands are Latino/Catholic rather than Dutch/Protestant and how the Dutch treat the former group.
Sounds like its going to be 'an interesting time' for a hell of a lot of people in the years ahead. Possibly even worse than OTL WWI! 
Seen your reply to Lordroel. There is the prospect that, given the Liberal governments commitment to Home Rule and the Protestant's opposition to it that the latter community could see violent unrest. However if the Dutch supported this in any way its likely to unite the more numerous Catholics behind the UK and probably make a lot of the mainland support for the Unionists fade away as there's an ongoing conflict with a hostile great power that poses a major threat to Britain.
The Republic would probably not start fostering rebellions in neutral powers while they already are at war. It's just a matter of priorities really. Now, if there was a protestant group being oppressed by the evil semi-catholic English, it would be very hard politically to not go to war at some point, but that's not the current situation. Added to that, supporting the Unionists in a fight against London will be rather difficult to organise. The Dutch have some idea of what they are taking on in the USA, but at the same time, they don't know everything and feel forced to throw their weight around in order to be taken seriously. It would also have been utterly unacceptable to public opinion to bow down to an ultimatum like that. The Americans basically underestimated what they were dealing with while the Dutch did the same. Unfortunately for Jakoba, her actions in getting the ultimatum's duration lengthened (by giving the impression that they would comply with at least some parts and open further negotiations) is going to have effects on her personal reputation as well because that time was used for some quite different things. Both the Dutch and American armies aren't of all that much use here. There is no way for the Dutch to ever get enough troops to North America to win a land war there, while at the same time, the Americans will be very hard-pressed to ever reach any place of true significance to the Republic in significant numbers. Unless they get allies with serious infrastructure next to Dutch lands. The logistics will be hell otherwise. But you're right, this world is going to be a lot of fun for lots of people, because war will reach areas and countries that were completely untouched in our history. So is all of the Republic Protestant then.
It sounds rather like it from the comments about finding OTL Belgium being Catholic.
It sounds rather like it from the comments about finding OTL Belgium being Catholic.
Do not forget parts of former Southern Netherlands. Do not forget parts of former Southern Netherlands.
Sorry, not following what you mean here?
Sorry, not following what you mean here?
Parts of OTL Netherlands see this map which now would be the Republic where Catholic.  Parts of OTL Netherlands see this map which now would be the Republic where Catholic.
Ah I see your point. When you said former Southern Netherlands I thought you meant what's now Belgium as that's what it was called in the period of the initial rebellion against Spain up pretty much until the modern Belgium was formed in ~1839 I think it was. After all that region was then called the Spanish Netherlands and then the Austrian Netherlands.
In terms of what you mean I think the southern parts of the OTL Netherlands, as well as Belgium, have presumably been fully 'reformed' so to speak and will be overwhelmingly Protestant. Taking that from the comments in the letters in terms of surprise that the Belgians Jakoba came across were Catholics. Plus the apparent surprise that the Austrians were Catholics and I think Johan saying he was surprised/disappointed that Jakoba was having to mix with such people. Gives the general impression that at least in central Europe there are far less Catholics in the world the Dutch republic came from. Possibly also in large areas of their lands in S America depending how how much effort has been put into displacing earlier Spanish/Portuguese settlers and/or converting them.
The Southern Netherlands were fully liberated, not just from the Spanish secular authorities, but also from the Spanish religious authorities. So, they basically all are Protestants. There still are some small Catholic minorities, but they're small enough to not matter in the mainland. There also are Jews and Muslims (called Turks of course), and there are more of both those groups than there are Catholics. There also are some minor Protestant churches, but there has been no Doleantie or the like. So, those minor churches are more like Mennonite, Baptist, and some very small Contraremonstrant sects (who are even more persecuted than Catholics). Many other settlers were converted, either by force (earlier on) or just by offering certain advantages (such as access to schools, government positions, and things like that). But even then, especially in the colonies, there is more religious diversity and the situation of religious minorities is gradually improving because of the influence of representatives from those districts. |
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raunchel
Commander
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Post by raunchel on Nov 29, 2018 9:53:28 GMT
Antwerpen, October 9, 1914
Dearest Jakoba,
When we say the newspaper with your photograph, your mother and I were so proud. You obviously bore yourself as a lady should and were a true example of Dutch womanhood at its finest. Dutiful, loyal, and modest. Your mother has shown it to all of her friends, and they all agree. Several of my officers even congratulated me on having a daughter such as you.
I however understand that it must be difficult for you. But you have to know that this isn’t your war. The decisions were made elsewhere. You could only be the messenger and the example of our nation. You have done everything that was within your powers to keep this from happening, and now it’s all in God’s hands. He must have had his reasons for sending us here, we only have to have faith.
And don’t worry about Geertsje. Our American fleet is a powerful one, and even though these North Americans might be our enemies, they still are white protestants. They won’t murder innocents like Geertsje. Don’t you worry yourself over that.
Some news has reached me about the war across the ocean. Landings have been made in Panama where a canal has just been constructed across the isthmus by the North Americans, I believe that you also mentioned it in an earlier letter. It is believed that cutting off this canal will make it impossible for them to combine their fleets, allowing us to destroy them more easily. This landing, as far as I understand, is supported by older battleships that would be useless in a true fleet engagement.
The main fleet under admiral Wolters himself has started the war by seeking out the enemy fleet, but no word has reached us yet of the results of his endeavours.
I hope that this letter finds you well and at peace.
Your loving father,
Johan Rots
Berlin, October 12, 1914
Dear Father,
Thank you for all of your warm words. They truly make me feel better. Karen has helped me as well, so I could return to my duties, which only increase now that we are fully at war.
To add to my sorrows, I have been told that Nagasaki has been taken by the Japanese. It however made me proud to hear that the garrison had not surrendered and fought to the last and made the yellows pay in blood for every step they took. I however fear for the fate of the women and children and pray that they have been spared captivity.
The mood in Berlin is improving despite the slaughter. There is fresh hope now that the Russians are in retreat in Poland and German forces now threaten Warsaw. At the same time, the Austrians have also gone on the advance. The war in Serbia however is barely mentioned, but I’ve heard claims of mismanagement there.
After delivering the declaration of war to the North Americans, we were invited to an audience with the emperor to explain our position. As no strong instructions in that regard have been provided yet, the emperor himself speculated. It seems like something he quite likes doing. He believes that our aim is to force the North Americans to cede us control of the whole hemisphere and that we wish to disarm them. He also shared something with me that I remained unaware of. It seems that Mexican forces are also involved in our actions, although it was unknown to what extent.
Of course, I didn’t confirm or deny anything, but we had a good conversation and I had a walk with the emperor through the palace gardens. Uncle Sytze remained behind to speak to the chancellor. Soon enough, it moved to the English question, about which he has strong opinions. He said that we should avoid war, and that he believes there won’t be a need for one. I said that I had my worries given recent provocations, and mentioned the sinking of the Willem van Gulik, and that if they were innocent, the English would have to be the guilty part.
He appeared shocked by the idea, but quickly recovered himself. He said that if they were guilty of such a kind of treason, the whole world would support us in our war with them, but he couldn’t make any guarantees because of the ongoing situation.
We have also lost our importance in terms of contact with the English as an embassy has finally been sent. Me and I hope that our responsibilities can be further lessened in the future. Our new naval attaché, Lieutenant van der Bilt, is proving himself to be a capable man, and he has been busying himself with talks with the Germans about our minefields. He however doesn’t tell me much.
Naturally, we immediately arranged for a meeting with the Mexican mission, led by one Mr de Beistegui. He appeared to be unaware of his government having agreed to join us, but did clarify that there are significant divisions. He however expressed that his nation has the deepest sympathies for our war against the North Americans, and hopes that the situation will develop to our advantage.
I have also spoken with the Colombians, and they have given me a letter for The Hague. They intend to declare war on the North Americans on the sixteenth. It seems that there have been discussions with the Pensionary of Nieuw-Holland who has already given his affirmation. It’s not a major country, but we can certainly use some allies in this war.
One thing that I did hear is that our ships have shelled North American cities along the coast and that there has been a major engagement off the coast of a city they call Brooklyn. The North Americans however haven’t shared how the fighting has gone, and in the newspapers here, it has been described as shocking that cities have been fired at from the sea. As though the Germans aren’t bombarding French cities as I write this very letter.
But otherwise, there has been little news of our war here, everyone remains absorbed by their own war, which is only understandable. I have however now lost my cable connection to Geertsje, so I pray that God may protect her.
Your faithful daughter,
Jakoba
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Post by eurowatch on Nov 29, 2018 10:18:21 GMT
Antwerpen, October 9, 1914Dearest Jakoba, When we say the newspaper with your photograph, your mother and I were so proud. You obviously bore yourself as a lady should and were a true example of Dutch womanhood at its finest. Dutiful, loyal, and modest. Your mother has shown it to all of her friends, and they all agree. Several of my officers even congratulated me on having a daughter such as you. I however understand that it must be difficult for you. But you have to know that this isn’t your war. The decisions were made elsewhere. You could only be the messenger and the example of our nation. You have done everything that was within your powers to keep this from happening, and now it’s all in God’s hands. He must have had his reasons for sending us here, we only have to have faith. And don’t worry about Geertsje. Our American fleet is a powerful one, and even though these North Americans might be our enemies, they still are white protestants. They won’t murder innocents like Geertsje. Don’t you worry yourself over that. Some news has reached me about the war across the ocean. Landings have been made in Panama where a canal has just been constructed across the isthmus by the North Americans, I believe that you also mentioned it in an earlier letter. It is believed that cutting off this canal will make it impossible for them to combine their fleets, allowing us to destroy them more easily. This landing, as far as I understand, is supported by older battleships that would be useless in a true fleet engagement. The main fleet under admiral Wolters himself has started the war by seeking out the enemy fleet, but no word has reached us yet of the results of his endeavours. I hope that this letter finds you well and at peace. Your loving father, Johan Rots Berlin, October 12, 1914Dear Father, Thank you for all of your warm words. They truly make me feel better. Karen has helped me as well, so I could return to my duties, which only increase now that we are fully at war. To add to my sorrows, I have been told that Nagasaki has been taken by the Japanese. It however made me proud to hear that the garrison had not surrendered and fought to the last and made the yellows pay in blood for every step they took. I however fear for the fate of the women and children and pray that they have been spared captivity. The mood in Berlin is improving despite the slaughter. There is fresh hope now that the Russians are in retreat in Poland and German forces now threaten Warsaw. At the same time, the Austrians have also gone on the advance. The war in Serbia however is barely mentioned, but I’ve heard claims of mismanagement there. After delivering the declaration of war to the North Americans, we were invited to an audience with the emperor to explain our position. As no strong instructions in that regard have been provided yet, the emperor himself speculated. It seems like something he quite likes doing. He believes that our aim is to force the North Americans to cede us control of the whole hemisphere and that we wish to disarm them. He also shared something with me that I remained unaware of. It seems that Mexican forces are also involved in our actions, although it was unknown to what extent. Of course, I didn’t confirm or deny anything, but we had a good conversation and I had a walk with the emperor through the palace gardens. Uncle Sytze remained behind to speak to the chancellor. Soon enough, it moved to the English question, about which he has strong opinions. He said that we should avoid war, and that he believes there won’t be a need for one. I said that I had my worries given recent provocations, and mentioned the sinking of the Willem van Gulik, and that if they were innocent, the English would have to be the guilty part. He appeared shocked by the idea, but quickly recovered himself. He said that if they were guilty of such a kind of treason, the whole world would support us in our war with them, but he couldn’t make any guarantees because of the ongoing situation. We have also lost our importance in terms of contact with the English as an embassy has finally been sent. Me and I hope that our responsibilities can be further lessened in the future. Our new naval attaché, Lieutenant van der Bilt, is proving himself to be a capable man, and he has been busying himself with talks with the Germans about our minefields. He however doesn’t tell me much. Naturally, we immediately arranged for a meeting with the Mexican mission, led by one Mr de Beistegui. He appeared to be unaware of his government having agreed to join us, but did clarify that there are significant divisions. He however expressed that his nation has the deepest sympathies for our war against the North Americans, and hopes that the situation will develop to our advantage. I have also spoken with the Colombians, and they have given me a letter for The Hague. They intend to declare war on the North Americans on the sixteenth. It seems that there have been discussions with the Pensionary of Nieuw-Holland who has already given his affirmation. It’s not a major country, but we can certainly use some allies in this war. One thing that I did hear is that our ships have shelled North American cities along the coast and that there has been a major engagement off the coast of a city they call Brooklyn. The North Americans however haven’t shared how the fighting has gone, and in the newspapers here, it has been described as shocking that cities have been fired at from the sea. As though the Germans aren’t bombarding French cities as I write this very letter. But otherwise, there has been little news of our war here, everyone remains absorbed by their own war, which is only understandable. I have however now lost my cable connection to Geertsje, so I pray that God may protect her. Your faithful daughter, Jakoba If I may ask, who is admiral Wolters named after? |
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stevep
Fleet admiral
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Post by stevep on Nov 29, 2018 10:18:57 GMT
So is all of the Republic Protestant then. Almost the whole Republic indeed is Protestant. Although there are some minorities.
Possibly but that would mean war with Britain while their already at war with the US and the Japanese - albeit that they seem to be drastically underestimating the latter. Also given their views on Catholics and if its the Dutch that bring war about that might be a unifying factor as OTL. Although it will lack the factor of protecting the independence of a small nation such as Belgium.
With the Dutch decision to attack the US I wonder if they realise what their taking on? Its got a much smaller fleet but with the tension with Britain and war in Japan, plus the general instability of Europe with the ongoing conflict they could have problems bringing enough to bear on the US. The USN does have the problem of little recent experience and also being very top heavy with relatively few scouting elements [destroyers/cruisers] compared to the BBs and heavy cruisers.
In terms of armies the US one is very small and its probably going to take at least a year before they can get a sizeable one in the field and the quality could be dubious given how much the regular army is diluted plus they won't have had the OTL advantage of sell supplies to the EPs for three years so it could also take a while to ramp up production. On the other hand they do have a bloody big industry and a population of 92M in 1910 and 106M by 1920 as well as access to most raw materials. It will also mean war with the US forces in the Pacific, including in the Philippines as the DEI occupy the southern part of that.
A lot will depend on the demographics of the Dutch colonies and overseas republics, both in total numbers and their racial distribution. Given the mistrust of blacks, which is pretty much the same in the US at this stage and the question of how many people in the Dutch lands are Latino/Catholic rather than Dutch/Protestant and how the Dutch treat the former group.
Sounds like its going to be 'an interesting time' for a hell of a lot of people in the years ahead. Possibly even worse than OTL WWI!
Seen your reply to Lordroel. There is the prospect that, given the Liberal governments commitment to Home Rule and the Protestant's opposition to it that the latter community could see violent unrest. However if the Dutch supported this in any way its likely to unite the more numerous Catholics behind the UK and probably make a lot of the mainland support for the Unionists fade away as there's an ongoing conflict with a hostile great power that poses a major threat to Britain.
The Republic would probably not start fostering rebellions in neutral powers while they already are at war. It's just a matter of priorities really. Now, if there was a protestant group being oppressed by the evil semi-catholic English, it would be very hard politically to not go to war at some point, but that's not the current situation. Added to that, supporting the Unionists in a fight against London will be rather difficult to organise. The Dutch have some idea of what they are taking on in the USA, but at the same time, they don't know everything and feel forced to throw their weight around in order to be taken seriously. It would also have been utterly unacceptable to public opinion to bow down to an ultimatum like that. The Americans basically underestimated what they were dealing with while the Dutch did the same. Unfortunately for Jakoba, her actions in getting the ultimatum's duration lengthened (by giving the impression that they would comply with at least some parts and open further negotiations) is going to have effects on her personal reputation as well because that time was used for some quite different things.Both the Dutch and American armies aren't of all that much use here. There is no way for the Dutch to ever get enough troops to North America to win a land war there, while at the same time, the Americans will be very hard-pressed to ever reach any place of true significance to the Republic in significant numbers. Unless they get allies with serious infrastructure next to Dutch lands. The logistics will be hell otherwise. But you're right, this world is going to be a lot of fun for lots of people, because war will reach areas and countries that were completely untouched in our history.
It sounds rather like it from the comments about finding OTL Belgium being Catholic.
Do not forget parts of former Southern Netherlands.
Sorry, not following what you mean here?
Parts of OTL Netherlands see this map which now would be the Republic where Catholic.
Ah I see your point. When you said former Southern Netherlands I thought you meant what's now Belgium as that's what it was called in the period of the initial rebellion against Spain up pretty much until the modern Belgium was formed in ~1839 I think it was. After all that region was then called the Spanish Netherlands and then the Austrian Netherlands.
In terms of what you mean I think the southern parts of the OTL Netherlands, as well as Belgium, have presumably been fully 'reformed' so to speak and will be overwhelmingly Protestant. Taking that from the comments in the letters in terms of surprise that the Belgians Jakoba came across were Catholics. Plus the apparent surprise that the Austrians were Catholics and I think Johan saying he was surprised/disappointed that Jakoba was having to mix with such people. Gives the general impression that at least in central Europe there are far less Catholics in the world the Dutch republic came from. Possibly also in large areas of their lands in S America depending how how much effort has been put into displacing earlier Spanish/Portuguese settlers and/or converting them.
The Southern Netherlands were fully liberated, not just from the Spanish secular authorities, but also from the Spanish religious authorities. So, they basically all are Protestants. There still are some small Catholic minorities, but they're small enough to not matter in the mainland. There also are Jews and Muslims (called Turks of course), and there are more of both those groups than there are Catholics. There also are some minor Protestant churches, but there has been no Doleantie or the like. So, those minor churches are more like Mennonite, Baptist, and some very small Contraremonstrant sects (who are even more persecuted than Catholics). Many other settlers were converted, either by force (earlier on) or just by offering certain advantages (such as access to schools, government positions, and things like that). But even then, especially in the colonies, there is more religious diversity and the situation of religious minorities is gradually improving because of the influence of representatives from those districts.
Raunchel
a) I suspect you mean that the Dutch government has used the time to prepare for war and are going in strongly immediately after the formal declaration so many people will suspect Jakoba was involved in deliberately deceiving the US while the Dutch organised their attack?
b) By calling it fun are you formally declaring yourself a sadist?  Suspect many people will find it far from fun. Ironically, although I suspect we will be dragged in at some point Britain might end up doing very well by avoiding both wars but due to the tension with the Dutch tying down a lot of their fleet and resources.
c) By religious minorities in the colonies do you mean the majority are actually Protestants of the official church, whether Dutch or local converts? Or do you mean the non-Protestants are possibly still in the majority but politically and economically have little or no power?
In terms of the Protestants in Ireland at this point it was looking like London was intending on forcing through the Home Rule Bill and the more militant Protestants, especially in Ulster were making assorted threats on how they were going to oppose it. Plus elements of the army had raised objections about their willingness to enforce such a government. See Government_of_Ireland_Act_1914, especially the sections on Ulster opposed the bill and the Curragh Incident. Basically it was a mess and just about anything can happen. OTL WWI and the German attack on Belgium meant the government was able to kick the issue into the long grass. Unfortunately while the more loyalist elements of both communities were fighting [and unfortunately in many cases dying in France] the more extreme 'nationalists' organised the so called Easter Uprising and everything went downhill fast from there. 
As far as a US-Dutch war is concerned, unless it goes on for a prolonged period or as you say the US gets allies in Europe neither can really hurt the other. I presume, unless there are a lot of unhappy subjects in the Dutch colonies, hence my question c above, that the Americans can't really make an impact on the Dutch core provinces in S America, although they could possibly nibble away at some of the edges in the Caribbean and possibly preserve the independence of threatened states such as Chile. Similarly while they will have the initial edge as you say there's no real way the Dutch can successfully invade the continental US. It could be long and very expensive for both sides with no real result other than possibly persistent enmity between the two nations.
Steve
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stevep
Fleet admiral
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Post by stevep on Nov 29, 2018 10:38:50 GMT
Antwerpen, October 9, 1914Dearest Jakoba, When we say the newspaper with your photograph, your mother and I were so proud. You obviously bore yourself as a lady should and were a true example of Dutch womanhood at its finest. Dutiful, loyal, and modest. Your mother has shown it to all of her friends, and they all agree. Several of my officers even congratulated me on having a daughter such as you. I however understand that it must be difficult for you. But you have to know that this isn’t your war. The decisions were made elsewhere. You could only be the messenger and the example of our nation. You have done everything that was within your powers to keep this from happening, and now it’s all in God’s hands. He must have had his reasons for sending us here, we only have to have faith. And don’t worry about Geertsje. Our American fleet is a powerful one, and even though these North Americans might be our enemies, they still are white protestants. They won’t murder innocents like Geertsje. Don’t you worry yourself over that. Some news has reached me about the war across the ocean. Landings have been made in Panama where a canal has just been constructed across the isthmus by the North Americans, I believe that you also mentioned it in an earlier letter. It is believed that cutting off this canal will make it impossible for them to combine their fleets, allowing us to destroy them more easily. This landing, as far as I understand, is supported by older battleships that would be useless in a true fleet engagement. The main fleet under admiral Wolters himself has started the war by seeking out the enemy fleet, but no word has reached us yet of the results of his endeavours. I hope that this letter finds you well and at peace. Your loving father, Johan Rots Berlin, October 12, 1914Dear Father, Thank you for all of your warm words. They truly make me feel better. Karen has helped me as well, so I could return to my duties, which only increase now that we are fully at war. To add to my sorrows, I have been told that Nagasaki has been taken by the Japanese. It however made me proud to hear that the garrison had not surrendered and fought to the last and made the yellows pay in blood for every step they took. I however fear for the fate of the women and children and pray that they have been spared captivity. The mood in Berlin is improving despite the slaughter. There is fresh hope now that the Russians are in retreat in Poland and German forces now threaten Warsaw. At the same time, the Austrians have also gone on the advance. The war in Serbia however is barely mentioned, but I’ve heard claims of mismanagement there. After delivering the declaration of war to the North Americans, we were invited to an audience with the emperor to explain our position. As no strong instructions in that regard have been provided yet, the emperor himself speculated. It seems like something he quite likes doing. He believes that our aim is to force the North Americans to cede us control of the whole hemisphere and that we wish to disarm them. He also shared something with me that I remained unaware of. It seems that Mexican forces are also involved in our actions, although it was unknown to what extent. Of course, I didn’t confirm or deny anything, but we had a good conversation and I had a walk with the emperor through the palace gardens. Uncle Sytze remained behind to speak to the chancellor. Soon enough, it moved to the English question, about which he has strong opinions. He said that we should avoid war, and that he believes there won’t be a need for one. I said that I had my worries given recent provocations, and mentioned the sinking of the Willem van Gulik, and that if they were innocent, the English would have to be the guilty part. He appeared shocked by the idea, but quickly recovered himself. He said that if they were guilty of such a kind of treason, the whole world would support us in our war with them, but he couldn’t make any guarantees because of the ongoing situation. We have also lost our importance in terms of contact with the English as an embassy has finally been sent. Me and I hope that our responsibilities can be further lessened in the future. Our new naval attaché, Lieutenant van der Bilt, is proving himself to be a capable man, and he has been busying himself with talks with the Germans about our minefields. He however doesn’t tell me much. Naturally, we immediately arranged for a meeting with the Mexican mission, led by one Mr de Beistegui. He appeared to be unaware of his government having agreed to join us, but did clarify that there are significant divisions. He however expressed that his nation has the deepest sympathies for our war against the North Americans, and hopes that the situation will develop to our advantage. I have also spoken with the Colombians, and they have given me a letter for The Hague. They intend to declare war on the North Americans on the sixteenth. It seems that there have been discussions with the Pensionary of Nieuw-Holland who has already given his affirmation. It’s not a major country, but we can certainly use some allies in this war. One thing that I did hear is that our ships have shelled North American cities along the coast and that there has been a major engagement off the coast of a city they call Brooklyn. The North Americans however haven’t shared how the fighting has gone, and in the newspapers here, it has been described as shocking that cities have been fired at from the sea. As though the Germans aren’t bombarding French cities as I write this very letter. But otherwise, there has been little news of our war here, everyone remains absorbed by their own war, which is only understandable. I have however now lost my cable connection to Geertsje, so I pray that God may protect her. Your faithful daughter, Jakoba
Ooops! That will go down like a lead balloon in the US. This is going to be like Pearl Harbour OTL I suspect especially with bombardment of US coastal cities - which if they have no fortifications is illegal under OTL laws although that didn't stop the Germans doing it OTL - the obviously pre-planned attack on the canal and the fact they have made an alliance with at least one of the Mexican factions. Frankly this is going to be an even worse time for Mexico especially I fear. With Columbia joining in as well its going to be a big war.
With that bit about German bombardment of French cities is that by land or by sea? I would have thought that Britain would have kept to its commitment to keep the Germans out of the channel, especially with the tense situation with a powerful Dutch fleet in the German way as well. Any German force seeking to fight its way through the channel is going to risk another incident with the Dutch as well as being in danger of getting cut off in any retreat. Of possibly of the BC Goeben in the Med, which could end up in Trieste TTL without Britain being in the war.
The Serbs put up a hell of a fight OTL, aided by incompetence on the Austrian forces but may not last as long OTL, especially if without a British campaign at Gallipoli, as likely that the Turks will join the CPs Bulgaria could well also join earlier.
Steve
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stevep
Fleet admiral
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Post by stevep on Nov 29, 2018 11:30:22 GMT
Raunchel
One additional point in terms of a US-Dutch conflict. At this point the US was building two dreadnoughts for Argentina, see Rivadavia-class_battleship, for details. Since Argentina no longer exists and the US is suddenly in a shooting war I think they are likely to find a stars and stripes plastered on them. They only have 12" guns but 12 of them each and reasonably well protected. Rivadavia was completed in Dec 1914 and Moreno in Feb 1915, although both had initial engine troubles. Completed can mean different things but since, presumably after repairing the engine problems they arrived in Argentina in Feb and May 1915 respectively they should be available by that date and possibly earlier in a crisis.
Steve
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raunchel
Commander
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Post by raunchel on Nov 29, 2018 14:57:21 GMT
Antwerpen, October 9, 1914Dearest Jakoba, When we say the newspaper with your photograph, your mother and I were so proud. You obviously bore yourself as a lady should and were a true example of Dutch womanhood at its finest. Dutiful, loyal, and modest. Your mother has shown it to all of her friends, and they all agree. Several of my officers even congratulated me on having a daughter such as you. I however understand that it must be difficult for you. But you have to know that this isn’t your war. The decisions were made elsewhere. You could only be the messenger and the example of our nation. You have done everything that was within your powers to keep this from happening, and now it’s all in God’s hands. He must have had his reasons for sending us here, we only have to have faith. And don’t worry about Geertsje. Our American fleet is a powerful one, and even though these North Americans might be our enemies, they still are white protestants. They won’t murder innocents like Geertsje. Don’t you worry yourself over that. Some news has reached me about the war across the ocean. Landings have been made in Panama where a canal has just been constructed across the isthmus by the North Americans, I believe that you also mentioned it in an earlier letter. It is believed that cutting off this canal will make it impossible for them to combine their fleets, allowing us to destroy them more easily. This landing, as far as I understand, is supported by older battleships that would be useless in a true fleet engagement. The main fleet under admiral Wolters himself has started the war by seeking out the enemy fleet, but no word has reached us yet of the results of his endeavours. I hope that this letter finds you well and at peace. Your loving father, Johan Rots Berlin, October 12, 1914Dear Father, Thank you for all of your warm words. They truly make me feel better. Karen has helped me as well, so I could return to my duties, which only increase now that we are fully at war. To add to my sorrows, I have been told that Nagasaki has been taken by the Japanese. It however made me proud to hear that the garrison had not surrendered and fought to the last and made the yellows pay in blood for every step they took. I however fear for the fate of the women and children and pray that they have been spared captivity. The mood in Berlin is improving despite the slaughter. There is fresh hope now that the Russians are in retreat in Poland and German forces now threaten Warsaw. At the same time, the Austrians have also gone on the advance. The war in Serbia however is barely mentioned, but I’ve heard claims of mismanagement there. After delivering the declaration of war to the North Americans, we were invited to an audience with the emperor to explain our position. As no strong instructions in that regard have been provided yet, the emperor himself speculated. It seems like something he quite likes doing. He believes that our aim is to force the North Americans to cede us control of the whole hemisphere and that we wish to disarm them. He also shared something with me that I remained unaware of. It seems that Mexican forces are also involved in our actions, although it was unknown to what extent. Of course, I didn’t confirm or deny anything, but we had a good conversation and I had a walk with the emperor through the palace gardens. Uncle Sytze remained behind to speak to the chancellor. Soon enough, it moved to the English question, about which he has strong opinions. He said that we should avoid war, and that he believes there won’t be a need for one. I said that I had my worries given recent provocations, and mentioned the sinking of the Willem van Gulik, and that if they were innocent, the English would have to be the guilty part. He appeared shocked by the idea, but quickly recovered himself. He said that if they were guilty of such a kind of treason, the whole world would support us in our war with them, but he couldn’t make any guarantees because of the ongoing situation. We have also lost our importance in terms of contact with the English as an embassy has finally been sent. Me and I hope that our responsibilities can be further lessened in the future. Our new naval attaché, Lieutenant van der Bilt, is proving himself to be a capable man, and he has been busying himself with talks with the Germans about our minefields. He however doesn’t tell me much. Naturally, we immediately arranged for a meeting with the Mexican mission, led by one Mr de Beistegui. He appeared to be unaware of his government having agreed to join us, but did clarify that there are significant divisions. He however expressed that his nation has the deepest sympathies for our war against the North Americans, and hopes that the situation will develop to our advantage. I have also spoken with the Colombians, and they have given me a letter for The Hague. They intend to declare war on the North Americans on the sixteenth. It seems that there have been discussions with the Pensionary of Nieuw-Holland who has already given his affirmation. It’s not a major country, but we can certainly use some allies in this war. One thing that I did hear is that our ships have shelled North American cities along the coast and that there has been a major engagement off the coast of a city they call Brooklyn. The North Americans however haven’t shared how the fighting has gone, and in the newspapers here, it has been described as shocking that cities have been fired at from the sea. As though the Germans aren’t bombarding French cities as I write this very letter. But otherwise, there has been little news of our war here, everyone remains absorbed by their own war, which is only understandable. I have however now lost my cable connection to Geertsje, so I pray that God may protect her. Your faithful daughter, Jakoba If I may ask, who is admiral Wolters named after? Wolters-Noordhoff I think, a major publisher of schoolbooks. I have to get my names from somewhere. Almost the whole Republic indeed is Protestant. Although there are some minorities. The Republic would probably not start fostering rebellions in neutral powers while they already are at war. It's just a matter of priorities really. Now, if there was a protestant group being oppressed by the evil semi-catholic English, it would be very hard politically to not go to war at some point, but that's not the current situation. Added to that, supporting the Unionists in a fight against London will be rather difficult to organise. The Dutch have some idea of what they are taking on in the USA, but at the same time, they don't know everything and feel forced to throw their weight around in order to be taken seriously. It would also have been utterly unacceptable to public opinion to bow down to an ultimatum like that. The Americans basically underestimated what they were dealing with while the Dutch did the same. Unfortunately for Jakoba, her actions in getting the ultimatum's duration lengthened (by giving the impression that they would comply with at least some parts and open further negotiations) is going to have effects on her personal reputation as well because that time was used for some quite different things.Both the Dutch and American armies aren't of all that much use here. There is no way for the Dutch to ever get enough troops to North America to win a land war there, while at the same time, the Americans will be very hard-pressed to ever reach any place of true significance to the Republic in significant numbers. Unless they get allies with serious infrastructure next to Dutch lands. The logistics will be hell otherwise. But you're right, this world is going to be a lot of fun for lots of people, because war will reach areas and countries that were completely untouched in our history.The Southern Netherlands were fully liberated, not just from the Spanish secular authorities, but also from the Spanish religious authorities. So, they basically all are Protestants. There still are some small Catholic minorities, but they're small enough to not matter in the mainland. There also are Jews and Muslims (called Turks of course), and there are more of both those groups than there are Catholics. There also are some minor Protestant churches, but there has been no Doleantie or the like. So, those minor churches are more like Mennonite, Baptist, and some very small Contraremonstrant sects (who are even more persecuted than Catholics). Many other settlers were converted, either by force (earlier on) or just by offering certain advantages (such as access to schools, government positions, and things like that). But even then, especially in the colonies, there is more religious diversity and the situation of religious minorities is gradually improving because of the influence of representatives from those districts.
Raunchel
a) I suspect you mean that the Dutch government has used the time to prepare for war and are going in strongly immediately after the formal declaration so many people will suspect Jakoba was involved in deliberately deceiving the US while the Dutch organised their attack?
b) By calling it fun are you formally declaring yourself a sadist? Suspect many people will find it far from fun. Ironically, although I suspect we will be dragged in at some point Britain might end up doing very well by avoiding both wars but due to the tension with the Dutch tying down a lot of their fleet and resources.
c) By religious minorities in the colonies do you mean the majority are actually Protestants of the official church, whether Dutch or local converts? Or do you mean the non-Protestants are possibly still in the majority but politically and economically have little or no power?
In terms of the Protestants in Ireland at this point it was looking like London was intending on forcing through the Home Rule Bill and the more militant Protestants, especially in Ulster were making assorted threats on how they were going to oppose it. Plus elements of the army had raised objections about their willingness to enforce such a government. See Government_of_Ireland_Act_1914, especially the sections on Ulster opposed the bill and the Curragh Incident. Basically it was a mess and just about anything can happen. OTL WWI and the German attack on Belgium meant the government was able to kick the issue into the long grass. Unfortunately while the more loyalist elements of both communities were fighting [and unfortunately in many cases dying in France] the more extreme 'nationalists' organised the so called Easter Uprising and everything went downhill fast from there.
As far as a US-Dutch war is concerned, unless it goes on for a prolonged period or as you say the US gets allies in Europe neither can really hurt the other. I presume, unless there are a lot of unhappy subjects in the Dutch colonies, hence my question c above, that the Americans can't really make an impact on the Dutch core provinces in S America, although they could possibly nibble away at some of the edges in the Caribbean and possibly preserve the independence of threatened states such as Chile. Similarly while they will have the initial edge as you say there's no real way the Dutch can successfully invade the continental US. It could be long and very expensive for both sides with no real result other than possibly persistent enmity between the two nations.
Steve
a) That's what I mean yes. It looks like Jakoba was acting in bad faith (although she wasn't aware of the plans, but that never matters) and then there was this sudden declaration of war. b) Of course I'm a sadist! The Brits would probably be better off outside these wars (just like anyone really. WW1 wasn't the good kind of war). c) In the colonies, the majority of whites is protestant of the official church, but there are larger groups of catholics and the like. And of course, many of the natives still have their own religions. I have to confess that I don't know very much about the whole Irish things except that I always was told that the Unionists were the good guys who were only trying to protect themselves from the evil papists. But I guess that there might be just a tiny little bit of bias in there  But the more I read about it, the less I understand the whole mess to be honest. I'm going to try not burning my fingers there. The US-Dutch war is one that just won't be ended decisively by one utterly destroying the other. There aren't enough catholics in the American Provinces to cause immense unrest, and marching all the way through Mexico isn't going to achieve all that much. The Central American colony is a bit more vulnerable, it's one of the few areas with a majority-catholic population, and a rather small 'Dutch' population (the vast majority of the Dutch are of other European descent). Antwerpen, October 9, 1914Dearest Jakoba, When we say the newspaper with your photograph, your mother and I were so proud. You obviously bore yourself as a lady should and were a true example of Dutch womanhood at its finest. Dutiful, loyal, and modest. Your mother has shown it to all of her friends, and they all agree. Several of my officers even congratulated me on having a daughter such as you. I however understand that it must be difficult for you. But you have to know that this isn’t your war. The decisions were made elsewhere. You could only be the messenger and the example of our nation. You have done everything that was within your powers to keep this from happening, and now it’s all in God’s hands. He must have had his reasons for sending us here, we only have to have faith. And don’t worry about Geertsje. Our American fleet is a powerful one, and even though these North Americans might be our enemies, they still are white protestants. They won’t murder innocents like Geertsje. Don’t you worry yourself over that. Some news has reached me about the war across the ocean. Landings have been made in Panama where a canal has just been constructed across the isthmus by the North Americans, I believe that you also mentioned it in an earlier letter. It is believed that cutting off this canal will make it impossible for them to combine their fleets, allowing us to destroy them more easily. This landing, as far as I understand, is supported by older battleships that would be useless in a true fleet engagement. The main fleet under admiral Wolters himself has started the war by seeking out the enemy fleet, but no word has reached us yet of the results of his endeavours. I hope that this letter finds you well and at peace. Your loving father, Johan Rots Berlin, October 12, 1914Dear Father, Thank you for all of your warm words. They truly make me feel better. Karen has helped me as well, so I could return to my duties, which only increase now that we are fully at war. To add to my sorrows, I have been told that Nagasaki has been taken by the Japanese. It however made me proud to hear that the garrison had not surrendered and fought to the last and made the yellows pay in blood for every step they took. I however fear for the fate of the women and children and pray that they have been spared captivity. The mood in Berlin is improving despite the slaughter. There is fresh hope now that the Russians are in retreat in Poland and German forces now threaten Warsaw. At the same time, the Austrians have also gone on the advance. The war in Serbia however is barely mentioned, but I’ve heard claims of mismanagement there. After delivering the declaration of war to the North Americans, we were invited to an audience with the emperor to explain our position. As no strong instructions in that regard have been provided yet, the emperor himself speculated. It seems like something he quite likes doing. He believes that our aim is to force the North Americans to cede us control of the whole hemisphere and that we wish to disarm them. He also shared something with me that I remained unaware of. It seems that Mexican forces are also involved in our actions, although it was unknown to what extent. Of course, I didn’t confirm or deny anything, but we had a good conversation and I had a walk with the emperor through the palace gardens. Uncle Sytze remained behind to speak to the chancellor. Soon enough, it moved to the English question, about which he has strong opinions. He said that we should avoid war, and that he believes there won’t be a need for one. I said that I had my worries given recent provocations, and mentioned the sinking of the Willem van Gulik, and that if they were innocent, the English would have to be the guilty part. He appeared shocked by the idea, but quickly recovered himself. He said that if they were guilty of such a kind of treason, the whole world would support us in our war with them, but he couldn’t make any guarantees because of the ongoing situation. We have also lost our importance in terms of contact with the English as an embassy has finally been sent. Me and I hope that our responsibilities can be further lessened in the future. Our new naval attaché, Lieutenant van der Bilt, is proving himself to be a capable man, and he has been busying himself with talks with the Germans about our minefields. He however doesn’t tell me much. Naturally, we immediately arranged for a meeting with the Mexican mission, led by one Mr de Beistegui. He appeared to be unaware of his government having agreed to join us, but did clarify that there are significant divisions. He however expressed that his nation has the deepest sympathies for our war against the North Americans, and hopes that the situation will develop to our advantage. I have also spoken with the Colombians, and they have given me a letter for The Hague. They intend to declare war on the North Americans on the sixteenth. It seems that there have been discussions with the Pensionary of Nieuw-Holland who has already given his affirmation. It’s not a major country, but we can certainly use some allies in this war. One thing that I did hear is that our ships have shelled North American cities along the coast and that there has been a major engagement off the coast of a city they call Brooklyn. The North Americans however haven’t shared how the fighting has gone, and in the newspapers here, it has been described as shocking that cities have been fired at from the sea. As though the Germans aren’t bombarding French cities as I write this very letter. But otherwise, there has been little news of our war here, everyone remains absorbed by their own war, which is only understandable. I have however now lost my cable connection to Geertsje, so I pray that God may protect her. Your faithful daughter, Jakoba
Ooops! That will go down like a lead balloon in the US. This is going to be like Pearl Harbour OTL I suspect especially with bombardment of US coastal cities - which if they have no fortifications is illegal under OTL laws although that didn't stop the Germans doing it OTL - the obviously pre-planned attack on the canal and the fact they have made an alliance with at least one of the Mexican factions. Frankly this is going to be an even worse time for Mexico especially I fear. With Columbia joining in as well its going to be a big war.
With that bit about German bombardment of French cities is that by land or by sea? I would have thought that Britain would have kept to its commitment to keep the Germans out of the channel, especially with the tense situation with a powerful Dutch fleet in the German way as well. Any German force seeking to fight its way through the channel is going to risk another incident with the Dutch as well as being in danger of getting cut off in any retreat. Of possibly of the BC Goeben in the Med, which could end up in Trieste TTL without Britain being in the war.
The Serbs put up a hell of a fight OTL, aided by incompetence on the Austrian forces but may not last as long OTL, especially if without a British campaign at Gallipoli, as likely that the Turks will join the CPs Bulgaria could well also join earlier.
Steve
It's a bit like Pearl Harbour, only without only declaring war afterwards and actually opening fire on coastal cities. Under the convention of 1907 it can be constructed as being legal (if you squint), by claiming military necessity. And cities like Brooklyn and the like can be freely fired upon given the presence of fortifications and warships. And the Dutch have a completely different set of conventions to our ones, so they will get outraged by horrible crimes as well. The bit about the German bombardment of French cities is by land. There is no way that anyone is letting them into the Channel, and besides, they're not crazy enough to steam right through the two largest fleets of the world who already are incredibly nervous. The cities they shelled are places like Nancy, which now is in the frontline (and not much will remain standing I fear). That area basically is the OTL Western Front, only with a higher concentration of firepower. The Serbs are also fighting incredibly hard here, and the Austrians are seriously suffering. But the Warsaw campaign is going a little bit better than otl, and indeed, the Ottomans aren't yet occupied elsewhere. None of that however weighs up against the Austrians having Conrad in command. Raunchel
One additional point in terms of a US-Dutch conflict. At this point the US was building two dreadnoughts for Argentina, see Rivadavia-class_battleship, for details. Since Argentina no longer exists and the US is suddenly in a shooting war I think they are likely to find a stars and stripes plastered on them. They only have 12" guns but 12 of them each and reasonably well protected. Rivadavia was completed in Dec 1914 and Moreno in Feb 1915, although both had initial engine troubles. Completed can mean different things but since, presumably after repairing the engine problems they arrived in Argentina in Feb and May 1915 respectively they should be available by that date and possibly earlier in a crisis.
Steve
Hmm, I must have forgotten about those two! (I try to maintain a list of the major warships in the world, with rough locations and the like. That way, I can hopefully not have the same ship show up in two places at once). So, they've been added to the list. And you are right, any warship the Americans can get their hands on will be given a nice new flag to hang over it. And in this case, there isn't even anyone who can complain! |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Nov 29, 2018 15:58:07 GMT
Ooops! That will go down like a lead balloon in the US. This is going to be like Pearl Harbour OTL I suspect especially with bombardment of US coastal cities - which if they have no fortifications is illegal under OTL laws although that didn't stop the Germans doing it OTL - the obviously pre-planned attack on the canal and the fact they have made an alliance with at least one of the Mexican factions. Frankly this is g
for all we know the Republic does not have these kinds of laws and thus they feel that bombing cities is alright. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Nov 29, 2018 16:28:28 GMT
Ooops! That will go down like a lead balloon in the US. This is going to be like Pearl Harbour OTL I suspect especially with bombardment of US coastal cities - which if they have no fortifications is illegal under OTL laws although that didn't stop the Germans doing it OTL - the obviously pre-planned attack on the canal and the fact they have made an alliance with at least one of the Mexican factions. Frankly this is g
for all we know the Republic does not have these kinds of laws and thus they feel that bombing cities is alright.
Very true, I suspect that's the case.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Nov 29, 2018 18:40:13 GMT
Raunchel
Ulster and Ireland is complex - to put it mildly. Part of the problem it could be argued is that Britain was too tolerant. After 1648 and the Peace of Westphalia the standard 'rule' was that the religion of the ruler was that of the population and you either converted, got out or put up with a lot of discrimination. In most cases you got fairly uniform 'national' religions and while Britain had a fair number of non-Anglian Protestant sects the Catholic church in Britain largely disappeared - apart from the Highlands of Scotland some parts of England and of course most of Ireland. After Cromwell's conquest of Ireland, which wasn't actually as bloody as sometimes presented and finally ended a decade or so of bitter conflict there the Catholic majority was denied political rights and most of their traditional political leaders and landowners were replaced with Protestant landowners. The so called "Connacht or hell" option.
English settlement was largely in what was called the Pale, around Dublin but most of this was pre-reformation and for a while the bulk of the population here, known as the old English were Catholic but otherwise English. However from about 1650 they increasingly became absorbed in the older Celtic Catholic population. More importantly was the settlement of Scottish Protestants, mainly Calvinist in background in nature who settled in Ulster from about 1650 onwards and became the majority there. English settlement more and more moved to other colonies, especially in N America. This seems to have been largely economic in nature, a higher living standard meaning that potential English 'peasant' populations couldn't compete with poorer Irish peasants, whereas Ulster was an exception because a lot of Scots setters were from poorer areas and successfully replaced the Irish population.
The next big clash was when the mid-Stuarts [I.e. Charles II and James II] grew both more autocratic and more Catholic. James II who was openly Catholic in faith caused great fear in both Britain and in Protestant Europe so you got the intervention of William of Orange [which obviously didn't happen in your TL ] James fled Britain but later with French support turned up in Ireland where the Catholics understandable rallied to him. Many Protestants were killed and the city of Londonderry underwent a famous siege until William brought over his army lifted it then defeated Jame's army at the Boyne. James fled the country, causing much resentment among his supporters - apparently he was given the nickname James the s**t. Another wave of massacres and persecution followed, this time by the Protestants. What followed for the next century or so was the so called Protestant Supemercy, whereas the Protestant majority, since they had political power, dominated the country and the Catholics were subjected to discrimination and periodical unrest was put down, often with brutality.
This ended in 1801 after the 1798 rebellion, which was largely led by elements of the Protestant community who organised the United Irishmen organisation. This was put down with great brutality on both sides but especially by the Protestant minority and prompted the 1801 Act of Union, which removed the Parliament from Dublin, including Irish representatives in London instead. Partly this was motivated by the desire to limit the excesses of the Protestant minority in Ireland, which was thought to be a contributory factor in the Catholic unrest.
Then in 1829 after a steady build up of pressure a bill for Catholic emancipation was passed. From this point on the majority Catholic population were advocating for a return to a Dublin Parliament for all Ireland and the Protestant minority opposed this because they feared being under Catholic domination. There were a number of campaigns on the issue during the latter part of the century with Gladstone making several bids but it was only after the Liberal government broke the veto power of the House of Lords in 1910 that such a move became possible. This led to the heated crisis in the last years before the war. The Catholics were insistence that such a Parliament must include all of Ireland and the Protestants, especially in Ulster were determined they have the right to be excluded. Redmond, the relatively moderate Catholic leader tried to get some agreement but while at one point there was nearly agreement with the Protestants, giving them considerable veto powers one of the Catholic groups rejected this and unfortunately Redmond, wanting unanimity didn't push this deal through.
WWI left things suspended but hard line 'nationalists' became more extreme, leading to the so called Easter Rising saw hard liners seized areas of Dublin and this resulted in a bloody fight for the city, with rebel sharpshooters killing many and troops responded with artillery. Plus with the crisis of the war on the government made the mistake of allowing the army to impose quick military trials which were followed by executions of a number of the ring-leaders. There was a long standing extremist element in Irish politics that was committed to breaking any link with Britain and not permitting any independence for the Protestant community in Ulster which would have sought further violence come what may but this helped harden support behind them while many loyalist, from both communities were away in Ireland. Have even seen it suggested that one reason why the hard line Sinn Fain party won so many seats in the 1918 was because the election was called before troops returned from France and the loyalists were unable to vote.
As such its a complex mess and there is no real solution. However what the Dutch may or may not do and how people may react to it I don't know.
Thanks for the clarification on the German bombardment of French cities. I don't think they got within range, at least in terms of battlefield artillery as opposed to the 'Paris' gun of Nancy OTL so their doing somewhat better here I think but the terrain and the shorter front line should help the defence. Hope so anyway as a quick German victory could be very bad for Britain.
Steve
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raunchel
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Post by raunchel on Nov 30, 2018 11:53:31 GMT
Ooops! That will go down like a lead balloon in the US. This is going to be like Pearl Harbour OTL I suspect especially with bombardment of US coastal cities - which if they have no fortifications is illegal under OTL laws although that didn't stop the Germans doing it OTL - the obviously pre-planned attack on the canal and the fact they have made an alliance with at least one of the Mexican factions. Frankly this is g
for all we know the Republic does not have these kinds of laws and thus they feel that bombing cities is alright. They indeed don't really see bombarding cities as being completely wrong. At least, not if there is a military purpose behind it. It's one of the things they actually negotiated for, because for the Republic, it's one of the ways in which they put pressure on other nations. A lot of the time, the threat is sufficient, but it has to be there. Raunchel
Ulster and Ireland is complex - to put it mildly. Part of the problem it could be argued is that Britain was too tolerant. After 1648 and the Peace of Westphalia the standard 'rule' was that the religion of the ruler was that of the population and you either converted, got out or put up with a lot of discrimination. In most cases you got fairly uniform 'national' religions and while Britain had a fair number of non-Anglian Protestant sects the Catholic church in Britain largely disappeared - apart from the Highlands of Scotland some parts of England and of course most of Ireland. After Cromwell's conquest of Ireland, which wasn't actually as bloody as sometimes presented and finally ended a decade or so of bitter conflict there the Catholic majority was denied political rights and most of their traditional political leaders and landowners were replaced with Protestant landowners. The so called "Connacht or hell" option.
English settlement was largely in what was called the Pale, around Dublin but most of this was pre-reformation and for a while the bulk of the population here, known as the old English were Catholic but otherwise English. However from about 1650 they increasingly became absorbed in the older Celtic Catholic population. More importantly was the settlement of Scottish Protestants, mainly Calvinist in background in nature who settled in Ulster from about 1650 onwards and became the majority there. English settlement more and more moved to other colonies, especially in N America. This seems to have been largely economic in nature, a higher living standard meaning that potential English 'peasant' populations couldn't compete with poorer Irish peasants, whereas Ulster was an exception because a lot of Scots setters were from poorer areas and successfully replaced the Irish population.
The next big clash was when the mid-Stuarts [I.e. Charles II and James II] grew both more autocratic and more Catholic. James II who was openly Catholic in faith caused great fear in both Britain and in Protestant Europe so you got the intervention of William of Orange [which obviously didn't happen in your TL ] James fled Britain but later with French support turned up in Ireland where the Catholics understandable rallied to him. Many Protestants were killed and the city of Londonderry underwent a famous siege until William brought over his army lifted it then defeated Jame's army at the Boyne. James fled the country, causing much resentment among his supporters - apparently he was given the nickname James the s**t. Another wave of massacres and persecution followed, this time by the Protestants. What followed for the next century or so was the so called Protestant Supemercy, whereas the Protestant majority, since they had political power, dominated the country and the Catholics were subjected to discrimination and periodical unrest was put down, often with brutality.
This ended in 1801 after the 1798 rebellion, which was largely led by elements of the Protestant community who organised the United Irishmen organisation. This was put down with great brutality on both sides but especially by the Protestant minority and prompted the 1801 Act of Union, which removed the Parliament from Dublin, including Irish representatives in London instead. Partly this was motivated by the desire to limit the excesses of the Protestant minority in Ireland, which was thought to be a contributory factor in the Catholic unrest.
Then in 1829 after a steady build up of pressure a bill for Catholic emancipation was passed. From this point on the majority Catholic population were advocating for a return to a Dublin Parliament for all Ireland and the Protestant minority opposed this because they feared being under Catholic domination. There were a number of campaigns on the issue during the latter part of the century with Gladstone making several bids but it was only after the Liberal government broke the veto power of the House of Lords in 1910 that such a move became possible. This led to the heated crisis in the last years before the war. The Catholics were insistence that such a Parliament must include all of Ireland and the Protestants, especially in Ulster were determined they have the right to be excluded. Redmond, the relatively moderate Catholic leader tried to get some agreement but while at one point there was nearly agreement with the Protestants, giving them considerable veto powers one of the Catholic groups rejected this and unfortunately Redmond, wanting unanimity didn't push this deal through.
WWI left things suspended but hard line 'nationalists' became more extreme, leading to the so called Easter Rising saw hard liners seized areas of Dublin and this resulted in a bloody fight for the city, with rebel sharpshooters killing many and troops responded with artillery. Plus with the crisis of the war on the government made the mistake of allowing the army to impose quick military trials which were followed by executions of a number of the ring-leaders. There was a long standing extremist element in Irish politics that was committed to breaking any link with Britain and not permitting any independence for the Protestant community in Ulster which would have sought further violence come what may but this helped harden support behind them while many loyalist, from both communities were away in Ireland. Have even seen it suggested that one reason why the hard line Sinn Fain party won so many seats in the 1918 was because the election was called before troops returned from France and the loyalists were unable to vote.
As such its a complex mess and there is no real solution. However what the Dutch may or may not do and how people may react to it I don't know.
Thanks for the clarification on the German bombardment of French cities. I don't think they got within range, at least in terms of battlefield artillery as opposed to the 'Paris' gun of Nancy OTL so their doing somewhat better here I think but the terrain and the shorter front line should help the defence. Hope so anyway as a quick German victory could be very bad for Britain.
Steve
Thanks a lot for the explanation! You don't know how helpful this is! |
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raunchel
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Post by raunchel on Nov 30, 2018 11:56:21 GMT
Battlecruiser Geloof, October 15, 1914
Dearest Jakoba,
What you tell me of Nagasaki falling is truly horrible and this will be an eternal stain on our glorious nation. It must be avenged. The only good thing to come from this is that rear admiral Oude Luttinkhuis no longer has any restraints upon him. I have been told that he has been given a significant force of land troops as well, including several Moluccan contingents. The Japanese will rue the day they dared raise their hand against us.
The North American war is proceeding well, as far as I’ve been told, and further allies are always welcome. Panama has mostly fallen to our forces and the North American garrison has been forced to surrender. There have also been battles fought in the Caribbean, but those were all minor engagements, and there have also been further battles along the enemy coastlines, unfortunately, admiral Wolters' reports haven't yet arrived here, leaving people anxious.
We have received a letter from Geertsje that came by ship. She described that everything was well for her, and that the people were filled with a spirit of patriotism and sacrifice. Although at the time of writing, war hadn’t yet been declared of course.
In the North Sea, everything remains tense, whenever we encounter the English, guns are aimed at each other and close maneuvers are performed as we do not make way for them, and they refuse to do the same for us. Their major warships have also been sighted more frequently, and it seems that they have moved to more southern ports.
There also has been a slight incident with one of their airships that was trying to ascertain our movements. You know how the weather in this time of the year can be, and it suffered some sort of accident, forcing it down. I am happy to say that we rescued the crew, but when we handed them back to the English, my men found that we were being accused of downing the thing. People just shouldn’t try to fly over the sea. It’s only good for scouting in good weather and nothing else.
In the estates, a decision has been reached about the employment of coloured troops. Fortunately, they are not coming to the homeland, but will instead be sent to fight in the American interior where they should excel. Others are being sent to the Far East.
To end with some happy tidings, a new battlecruiser has joined my squadron, the Vlijt has now finished her trials as the final ship in her class. I pray that it will be enough for the times that lie ahead.
Your loving father,
Johannes Rots
Berlin, October 19, 1914
Dear Father,
Congratulations on receiving another ship in your force. I hope that it will perform with satisfaction. It makes me truly proud to know that my won father commands such a powerful fleet.
I’ve heard that the Russians are being forced back over the Vistula river in Poland, and that their attempt at a counterattack has been repulsed with heavy casualties. The French front remains stable, although the Germans are preparing for a massive French attack.
To try to distract myself from all the ongoing horror, Karen took me to a small place she knew to dance. And please, father, don’t worry. They don’t allow any men in there, not that there are all too many left in the city. And before you think that it is meant for the lower classes, I met the baroness von Puttkamer there as well. The poor lady has recently been widowed. Her husband had been a general, and I had actually seen the lady on some formal occasions.
Altogether, we had a wonderful time, and I met so many new people. I know that it sounds silly, but sometimes I just need to meet with my own sex, when I don’t have to worry about representing a whole nation. The baroness also recommended me several works of German literature for women, which, to my surprise, Karen already knew. She owns all of them in fact!
Lieutenant van der Bilt fortunately has come to trust me a little more, if only because he knows that I have good connections with the emperor and some of his senior ministers. He told me that preparations were being made for a combined naval plan, in case we have to collaborate if it comes to war. Naturally, he keeps as many secrets as possible, but as it stands now, he is urging the Germans to an aggressive strategy. Their fleet should give us the numerical advantage against the English.
At the same time, I have again had an unfortunate occurrence. There were several boys who threw something at my car, shouting something about America. It seems that the country has a certain kind of odd popularity. According to Karen, it has to do with the popularity of some books aimed at youths because the North American frontier past is being glorified. There have been further reports of their cities being bombarded, and I’ve been told that the North Americans claim that there have been several actions where our fleet has suffered major losses.
A few days ago, the Mexican minister came to visit us. He was quite distraught as the North Americans have now declared war on them as well. He was quite angry with one Huerta, or however it’s spelled. This man seems to be a hero of the fighting against the North Americans and their most famous naval commander. Furthermore, it appears that he has joined our fleet along with a few minor ships. Mr de Beistegui was truly shocked and feared for the future of his country. When Uncle Sytze told him that we would do our utmost to maintain his country’s independence and would endeavour to set right some historical injustices, he didn’t calm, but only said that the North Americans would ruin his country.
Through my sources in the German naval ministry, I heard a little more about the fighting. The North Americans appear to be incensed by are quite tight-lipped about what actually happened. The German naval attaché however has his own contacts, and it seems that a series of their cities has been put under fire and that several successive battles have been fought. What was more interesting however is that it seems that there were refugees in the capital, a city named Washington. These refugees come from coastal cities, and the Germans have found out that they are fleeing from the violence of our guns. There also are claims about mass landings, but the Germans believe that those are just hysteria by terrified people.
I hope that this letter finds you well and pray for a grand future for our republic.
Your faithful daughter,
Jakoba
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Nov 30, 2018 12:02:06 GMT
Battlecruiser Geloof, October 15, 1914Dearest Jakoba, What you tell me of Nagasaki falling is truly horrible and this will be an eternal stain on our glorious nation. It must be avenged. The only good thing to come from this is that rear admiral Oude Luttinkhuis no longer has any restraints upon him. I have been told that he has been given a significant force of land troops as well, including several Moluccan contingents. The Japanese will rue the day they dared raise their hand against us. The North American war is proceeding well, as far as I’ve been told, and further allies are always welcome. Panama has mostly fallen to our forces and the North American garrison has been forced to surrender. There have also been battles fought in the Caribbean, but those were all minor engagements, and there have also been further battles along the enemy coastlines, unfortunately, admiral Wolters' reports haven't yet arrived here, leaving people anxious. We have received a letter from Geertsje that came by ship. She described that everything was well for her, and that the people were filled with a spirit of patriotism and sacrifice. Although at the time of writing, war hadn’t yet been declared of course. In the North Sea, everything remains tense, whenever we encounter the English, guns are aimed at each other and close maneuvers are performed as we do not make way for them, and they refuse to do the same for us. Their major warships have also been sighted more frequently, and it seems that they have moved to more southern ports. There also has been a slight incident with one of their airships that was trying to ascertain our movements. You know how the weather in this time of the year can be, and it suffered some sort of accident, forcing it down. I am happy to say that we rescued the crew, but when we handed them back to the English, my men found that we were being accused of downing the thing. People just shouldn’t try to fly over the sea. It’s only good for scouting in good weather and nothing else. In the estates, a decision has been reached about the employment of coloured troops. Fortunately, they are not coming to the homeland, but will instead be sent to fight in the American interior where they should excel. Others are being sent to the Far East. To end with some happy tidings, a new battlecruiser has joined my squadron, the Vlijt has now finished her trials as the final ship in her class. I pray that it will be enough for the times that lie ahead. Your loving father, Johannes Rots Berlin, October 19, 1914Dear Father, Congratulations on receiving another ship in your force. I hope that it will perform with satisfaction. It makes me truly proud to know that my won father commands such a powerful fleet. I’ve heard that the Russians are being forced back over the Vistula river in Poland, and that their attempt at a counterattack has been repulsed with heavy casualties. The French front remains stable, although the Germans are preparing for a massive French attack. To try to distract myself from all the ongoing horror, Karen took me to a small place she knew to dance. And please, father, don’t worry. They don’t allow any men in there, not that there are all too many left in the city. And before you think that it is meant for the lower classes, I met the baroness von Puttkamer there as well. The poor lady has recently been widowed. Her husband had been a general, and I had actually seen the lady on some formal occasions. Altogether, we had a wonderful time, and I met so many new people. I know that it sounds silly, but sometimes I just need to meet with my own sex, when I don’t have to worry about representing a whole nation. The baroness also recommended me several works of German literature for women, which, to my surprise, Karen already knew. She owns all of them in fact! Lieutenant van der Bilt fortunately has come to trust me a little more, if only because he knows that I have good connections with the emperor and some of his senior ministers. He told me that preparations were being made for a combined naval plan, in case we have to collaborate if it comes to war. Naturally, he keeps as many secrets as possible, but as it stands now, he is urging the Germans to an aggressive strategy. Their fleet should give us the numerical advantage against the English. At the same time, I have again had an unfortunate occurrence. There were several boys who threw something at my car, shouting something about America. It seems that the country has a certain kind of odd popularity. According to Karen, it has to do with the popularity of some books aimed at youths because the North American frontier past is being glorified. There have been further reports of their cities being bombarded, and I’ve been told that the North Americans claim that there have been several actions where our fleet has suffered major losses. A few days ago, the Mexican minister came to visit us. He was quite distraught as the North Americans have now declared war on them as well. He was quite angry with one Huerta, or however it’s spelled. This man seems to be a hero of the fighting against the North Americans and their most famous naval commander. Furthermore, it appears that he has joined our fleet along with a few minor ships. Mr de Beistegui was truly shocked and feared for the future of his country. When Uncle Sytze told him that we would do our utmost to maintain his country’s independence and would endeavour to set right some historical injustices, he didn’t calm, but only said that the North Americans would ruin his country. Through my sources in the German naval ministry, I heard a little more about the fighting. The North Americans appear to be incensed by are quite tight-lipped about what actually happened. The German naval attaché however has his own contacts, and it seems that a series of their cities has been put under fire and that several successive battles have been fought. What was more interesting however is that it seems that there were refugees in the capital, a city named Washington. These refugees come from coastal cities, and the Germans have found out that they are fleeing from the violence of our guns. There also are claims about mass landings, but the Germans believe that those are just hysteria by terrified people. I hope that this letter finds you well and pray for a grand future for our republic. Your faithful daughter, Jakoba Another fine update raunchel. I wonder how the Japanese are reacting when they see that the Nagisaki they captured from the Republic is not the same city they knew. |
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stevep
Fleet admiral
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Post by stevep on Nov 30, 2018 12:28:16 GMT
Battlecruiser Geloof, October 15, 1914Dearest Jakoba, What you tell me of Nagasaki falling is truly horrible and this will be an eternal stain on our glorious nation. It must be avenged. The only good thing to come from this is that rear admiral Oude Luttinkhuis no longer has any restraints upon him. I have been told that he has been given a significant force of land troops as well, including several Moluccan contingents. The Japanese will rue the day they dared raise their hand against us. The North American war is proceeding well, as far as I’ve been told, and further allies are always welcome. Panama has mostly fallen to our forces and the North American garrison has been forced to surrender. There have also been battles fought in the Caribbean, but those were all minor engagements, and there have also been further battles along the enemy coastlines, unfortunately, admiral Wolters' reports haven't yet arrived here, leaving people anxious. We have received a letter from Geertsje that came by ship. She described that everything was well for her, and that the people were filled with a spirit of patriotism and sacrifice. Although at the time of writing, war hadn’t yet been declared of course. In the North Sea, everything remains tense, whenever we encounter the English, guns are aimed at each other and close maneuvers are performed as we do not make way for them, and they refuse to do the same for us. Their major warships have also been sighted more frequently, and it seems that they have moved to more southern ports. There also has been a slight incident with one of their airships that was trying to ascertain our movements. You know how the weather in this time of the year can be, and it suffered some sort of accident, forcing it down. I am happy to say that we rescued the crew, but when we handed them back to the English, my men found that we were being accused of downing the thing. People just shouldn’t try to fly over the sea. It’s only good for scouting in good weather and nothing else. In the estates, a decision has been reached about the employment of coloured troops. Fortunately, they are not coming to the homeland, but will instead be sent to fight in the American interior where they should excel. Others are being sent to the Far East. To end with some happy tidings, a new battlecruiser has joined my squadron, the Vlijt has now finished her trials as the final ship in her class. I pray that it will be enough for the times that lie ahead. Your loving father, Johannes Rots Berlin, October 19, 1914Dear Father, Congratulations on receiving another ship in your force. I hope that it will perform with satisfaction. It makes me truly proud to know that my won father commands such a powerful fleet. I’ve heard that the Russians are being forced back over the Vistula river in Poland, and that their attempt at a counterattack has been repulsed with heavy casualties. The French front remains stable, although the Germans are preparing for a massive French attack. To try to distract myself from all the ongoing horror, Karen took me to a small place she knew to dance. And please, father, don’t worry. They don’t allow any men in there, not that there are all too many left in the city. And before you think that it is meant for the lower classes, I met the baroness von Puttkamer there as well. The poor lady has recently been widowed. Her husband had been a general, and I had actually seen the lady on some formal occasions. Altogether, we had a wonderful time, and I met so many new people. I know that it sounds silly, but sometimes I just need to meet with my own sex, when I don’t have to worry about representing a whole nation. The baroness also recommended me several works of German literature for women, which, to my surprise, Karen already knew. She owns all of them in fact! Lieutenant van der Bilt fortunately has come to trust me a little more, if only because he knows that I have good connections with the emperor and some of his senior ministers. He told me that preparations were being made for a combined naval plan, in case we have to collaborate if it comes to war. Naturally, he keeps as many secrets as possible, but as it stands now, he is urging the Germans to an aggressive strategy. Their fleet should give us the numerical advantage against the English. At the same time, I have again had an unfortunate occurrence. There were several boys who threw something at my car, shouting something about America. It seems that the country has a certain kind of odd popularity. According to Karen, it has to do with the popularity of some books aimed at youths because the North American frontier past is being glorified. There have been further reports of their cities being bombarded, and I’ve been told that the North Americans claim that there have been several actions where our fleet has suffered major losses. A few days ago, the Mexican minister came to visit us. He was quite distraught as the North Americans have now declared war on them as well. He was quite angry with one Huerta, or however it’s spelled. This man seems to be a hero of the fighting against the North Americans and their most famous naval commander. Furthermore, it appears that he has joined our fleet along with a few minor ships. Mr de Beistegui was truly shocked and feared for the future of his country. When Uncle Sytze told him that we would do our utmost to maintain his country’s independence and would endeavour to set right some historical injustices, he didn’t calm, but only said that the North Americans would ruin his country. Through my sources in the German naval ministry, I heard a little more about the fighting. The North Americans appear to be incensed by are quite tight-lipped about what actually happened. The German naval attaché however has his own contacts, and it seems that a series of their cities has been put under fire and that several successive battles have been fought. What was more interesting however is that it seems that there were refugees in the capital, a city named Washington. These refugees come from coastal cities, and the Germans have found out that they are fleeing from the violence of our guns. There also are claims about mass landings, but the Germans believe that those are just hysteria by terrified people. I hope that this letter finds you well and pray for a grand future for our republic. Your faithful daughter, Jakoba Another fine update raunchel . I wonder how the Japanese are reacting when they see that the Nagisaki they captured from the Republic is not the same city they knew.
It probably depends on what they find and the reception they get. If they find the locals were friendly to the Dutch, which I suspect is unlikely however, it could be a problem. Anyway, as a part of their homeland they will still be intent on unifying it. The local Japanese are going to have problems adjusting as by the sound of it their from a weak and divided Japan dominated by the Dutch and now they see a strong and technologically advanced empire that also rules Korean and did rule Taiwan.
One question might be the reaction of any Japanese in the area who have converted to Christianity during the period of Dutch rule.
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stevep
Fleet admiral
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Post by stevep on Nov 30, 2018 12:59:26 GMT
Battlecruiser Geloof, October 15, 1914Dearest Jakoba, What you tell me of Nagasaki falling is truly horrible and this will be an eternal stain on our glorious nation. It must be avenged. The only good thing to come from this is that rear admiral Oude Luttinkhuis no longer has any restraints upon him. I have been told that he has been given a significant force of land troops as well, including several Moluccan contingents. The Japanese will rue the day they dared raise their hand against us. The North American war is proceeding well, as far as I’ve been told, and further allies are always welcome. Panama has mostly fallen to our forces and the North American garrison has been forced to surrender. There have also been battles fought in the Caribbean, but those were all minor engagements, and there have also been further battles along the enemy coastlines, unfortunately, admiral Wolters' reports haven't yet arrived here, leaving people anxious. We have received a letter from Geertsje that came by ship. She described that everything was well for her, and that the people were filled with a spirit of patriotism and sacrifice. Although at the time of writing, war hadn’t yet been declared of course. In the North Sea, everything remains tense, whenever we encounter the English, guns are aimed at each other and close maneuvers are performed as we do not make way for them, and they refuse to do the same for us. Their major warships have also been sighted more frequently, and it seems that they have moved to more southern ports. There also has been a slight incident with one of their airships that was trying to ascertain our movements. You know how the weather in this time of the year can be, and it suffered some sort of accident, forcing it down. I am happy to say that we rescued the crew, but when we handed them back to the English, my men found that we were being accused of downing the thing. People just shouldn’t try to fly over the sea. It’s only good for scouting in good weather and nothing else. In the estates, a decision has been reached about the employment of coloured troops. Fortunately, they are not coming to the homeland, but will instead be sent to fight in the American interior where they should excel. Others are being sent to the Far East. To end with some happy tidings, a new battlecruiser has joined my squadron, the Vlijt has now finished her trials as the final ship in her class. I pray that it will be enough for the times that lie ahead. Your loving father, Johannes Rots Berlin, October 19, 1914Dear Father, Congratulations on receiving another ship in your force. I hope that it will perform with satisfaction. It makes me truly proud to know that my won father commands such a powerful fleet. I’ve heard that the Russians are being forced back over the Vistula river in Poland, and that their attempt at a counterattack has been repulsed with heavy casualties. The French front remains stable, although the Germans are preparing for a massive French attack. To try to distract myself from all the ongoing horror, Karen took me to a small place she knew to dance. And please, father, don’t worry. They don’t allow any men in there, not that there are all too many left in the city. And before you think that it is meant for the lower classes, I met the baroness von Puttkamer there as well. The poor lady has recently been widowed. Her husband had been a general, and I had actually seen the lady on some formal occasions. Altogether, we had a wonderful time, and I met so many new people. I know that it sounds silly, but sometimes I just need to meet with my own sex, when I don’t have to worry about representing a whole nation. The baroness also recommended me several works of German literature for women, which, to my surprise, Karen already knew. She owns all of them in fact! Lieutenant van der Bilt fortunately has come to trust me a little more, if only because he knows that I have good connections with the emperor and some of his senior ministers. He told me that preparations were being made for a combined naval plan, in case we have to collaborate if it comes to war. Naturally, he keeps as many secrets as possible, but as it stands now, he is urging the Germans to an aggressive strategy. Their fleet should give us the numerical advantage against the English. At the same time, I have again had an unfortunate occurrence. There were several boys who threw something at my car, shouting something about America. It seems that the country has a certain kind of odd popularity. According to Karen, it has to do with the popularity of some books aimed at youths because the North American frontier past is being glorified. There have been further reports of their cities being bombarded, and I’ve been told that the North Americans claim that there have been several actions where our fleet has suffered major losses. A few days ago, the Mexican minister came to visit us. He was quite distraught as the North Americans have now declared war on them as well. He was quite angry with one Huerta, or however it’s spelled. This man seems to be a hero of the fighting against the North Americans and their most famous naval commander. Furthermore, it appears that he has joined our fleet along with a few minor ships. Mr de Beistegui was truly shocked and feared for the future of his country. When Uncle Sytze told him that we would do our utmost to maintain his country’s independence and would endeavour to set right some historical injustices, he didn’t calm, but only said that the North Americans would ruin his country. Through my sources in the German naval ministry, I heard a little more about the fighting. The North Americans appear to be incensed by are quite tight-lipped about what actually happened. The German naval attaché however has his own contacts, and it seems that a series of their cities has been put under fire and that several successive battles have been fought. What was more interesting however is that it seems that there were refugees in the capital, a city named Washington. These refugees come from coastal cities, and the Germans have found out that they are fleeing from the violence of our guns. There also are claims about mass landings, but the Germans believe that those are just hysteria by terrified people. I hope that this letter finds you well and pray for a grand future for our republic. Your faithful daughter, Jakoba
Raunchel
I'm not sure how long the Dutch fleet could operate off the US coast? Apart from anything else it would run out of ammo fairly quickly, especially if doing a lot of coastal bombardment - which really needs HE shells rather than the AP or SAP that would be wanted for fighting other warships, which also raises the problem of the ammo mix. OTL ships of the time could blast off most/all of their shells in a couple of hours of rapid firing and the Dutch don't have any bases closer than Puerto Rico, which may not be a major fleet base. Plus fighting off NE American means any ships damaged have a long way to go to reach a friendly port so you could see some nasty losses this way, especially with the stormy weather and the fact we're getting towards the end of the hurricane season. Similarly they are going to have problems with fuel supply, whether coal or oil fueled as their going to burn up a fair chunk of their fuel simply going back and forwards between Puerto Rico and the NE US. Attacking say the southern coastal regions or in the Gulf would probably be more effective although the big industrial targets aren't there. There are reasons why trying to mount an extended campaign with naval units in this period are very difficult --> impossible. However the sheer terror of the initial attacks are likely to have an impact, but its going to be a bad one in terms of the US reaction.
Another reason why there could be opposition in Germany to the attacks on the US is that Germany [and the German portions of the Austrian empire] supplied a lot of the immigrants to the US in the 19thC, even more over the period than the Irish I believe. They were being supplanted by Slavs and Italians by this period but they were a significant element of the US and a lot of people in Germany will have relative in the US.
Purely by accident the Dutch have probably made a good choice committing coloured [presumably meaning black or does this include Latinos?] to the war against the US as it could drive a bit of a wedge between the US and their own black population. Although a lot depends on how the two groups are treated by their respective nations but sounds like while not liked a lot the Dutch treat their blacks better than the US at this point. They could have problems if their seriously thinking of landing large forces in the US itself as their going to be very difficult to supply and support.
Are the Dutch bringing oil fueled capital ships into service? Britain was starting to with the Queen Elizabeth class under construction and the following ones but otherwise they were still unknown in OTL at this point for large ships. Meant relying on overseas supply, in this case from Persia but did ease a number of problems. No need for stokers or for the problem of re-coaling, which was a nasty and time consuming job the crew hated, gave better fuel efficiency and also less fumes when steaming at speed.
I should ask. As well as the direct threat to Britain its lost a lot of important colonies and regions. As well as the Cape the Falkland Is have gone as have just about all the investments in S America. Aden and Nigeria are also important, the former controlling the southern entrance to the Red Sea and the path to India and the latter being the prime colony in W Africa. [Note that this means the Ottomans have also lost their territory in the Yemen and Italy have lost their Somali territories. Coupled with the loss of Ceylon, which was a major naval base and parts of Borneo Britain has lost a number of important bases and the routes to India are imperiled either by the Suez Canal or via the Cape. Along with the gold and diamonds of S Africa those are big economic and strategic hits. Then Australia has lost one state and part of its northern territory. Those will cause a lot of problems for British trade and economy and also mean their lost a lot of people who were living in those regions.
Note also that with war between the US and the Dutch there will be conflict in the Philippines although with the powerful base of the DEI the Dutch should have a big advantage here.
I love Jakoba's line "They don’t allow any men in there" when talking about her dance club.
Anyway all I can think of for the moment.
Steve
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Suspect many people will find it far from fun. Ironically, although I suspect we will be dragged in at some point Britain might end up doing very well by avoiding both wars but due to the tension with the Dutch tying down a lot of their fleet and resources.
But the more I read about it, the less I understand the whole mess to be honest. I'm going to try not burning my fingers there.