stevep
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Post by stevep on Nov 23, 2018 18:23:52 GMT
Berlin, September 16, 1914Dear Father, I am truly happy that my little findings have proven useful. I plan to further develop such sources, but it all is so much work and I don’t have anyone else I can trust with such delicate matters. Not even Karen. It appears that there has been a major Austrian defeat that I wasn’t told about previously, with them sustaining tens of thousands of losses even as the Germans have defeated another Russian army. It makes me wonder why the Austrians appear to be so incompetent militarily, but all I could find is that people have doubts about their lack of unity and there are whispers of flaws in their leadership. So far, the palace is quite something to live in, but I must say, there are some flaws. There simply isn’t enough staff, and we can’t afford to have dozens of Germans all over the place. Naturally, I have employed some of the Dutch from our world, but they also can’t be fully trusted. One young woman, who had come here as a governess, even asked me about a queen. Can you believe such nonsense? At another reception, I was asked why I never wear white. My hostess, at the Austrian embassy, said that it would look marvelous with my complexion. I explained that I never wear white because to do so would amount to stating that I believe myself free from sin. You should have seen her face, she became as white as her dress, as did the other ladies. Only then did I realize that they were papist. It’s so strange how they can almost seem like regular people. Otherwise, we had a fine evening, and I like to think that I made many more friends. The more major event was when the North American ambassador paid us a visit. Mr Gerard is a slight and refined man, quite unlike what one would be given to expect about such characters. He carried with him a document, which he had been instructed to deliver to us. Uncle Sytzte however refused to accept it, because it was addressed to the Kingdom of the Netherlands. Naturally, we immediately informed The Hague about the North Americans presenting us with demands. The next day, the ambassador returned with a new document, this time properly addressed. This document came in the form of an ultimatum. Uncle Sytze was well enough to receive it, and as soon as we could, we sat down together to study it in detail as I transcribed everything for The Hague. They basically demand that we stop all hostilities in the American continent, even though we aren’t the aggressor. Furthermore, they demand that we return them their overseas territories, and want us to submit the territorial disputes we have with other American nations to their arbitration. They require our affirmation of their demands within seven days. The Hague has given instructions to play for time, although colonel van Speyk wanted to request an immediate declaration of war. A feeling that is most understandable, but we need time to send word to the American provinces, as well as some reinforcements from the African provinces of course. Somehow, it seems that the German authorities also are aware of this, as they appear much cooler now. I think that it is because they don’t want more enemies should we join them after all. I fear that we will be finding ourselves isolated unless the Germans are guilty in regards to the sinking of our ship, then we will have the Russians and French as our allies. If the English are guilty, we will have to fight them as well, and I fear that it might be too much for us to take on. Later today, I will speak to the North Americans in hope of mollifying them, we can’t use another war on the other side of the ocean when another is brewing here. They must be made to understand that we as a sovereign power cannot submit to foreign mediation. The Hague has given instructions for offers that we are allowed to make and I pray that peace may prevail. On a more personal note, I have received a letter from commander van Gent. He is a good writer, and I’m still surprised that he could have remembered me. He asked about my health and about the nature of what I am doing here, abroad. He also expressed his admiration for my patriotism. It was truly heart-warming. Naturally, I will write you about any further developments in that regard. I after all need you to protect me from my silliness. Your faithful daughter, Jakoba Antwerpen, September 19, 1914Dearest Jakoba, It fills me with so many worries that you have to stay in such faithless surroundings. Has there been any progress with gaining further staff at the embassy? Please, don’t let these matters of war worry you overly much. Our navy remains the most powerful in the world, and if we are forced to act, we will deal with anyone who dares to insult our honour. The colonel clearly has his heart in the right place, but I’m happy that you could control his shortsightedness. I wish that I could go myself, but we have to remain here in order to contain the English. I have however been told that we will not be getting naval reinforcements form the south African provinces, as some of them are moving to the far east, while most will be moving to the west. It is good that you have replied to commander van Gent, and I encourage you to maintain your correspondence. It will provide you with some grounding in normal life. Please, don’t get overly attached to the luxuries that now surround you and ask Uncle Sytze to pray with you. Our demonstration at the English coast went well. We were barely challenged, although I later heard that airships had found their battle squadrons moving out from their Scottish bases. Yesterday, I was at the naval academy to give a brief lecture, and had the opportunity to see Johannes. He is finding his place and his teachers assure me that he is one of the best students. Within the year, he will have his first posting, although I already have a few ideas for assignments that might be suitable for him. But now I’ll be back to sea to receive another African troop convoy. There even is word that they will send colonial troops, although there is a serious debate about it in the estates as despite their white officers, the men remain closer to beasts than we would like to see here. But I’m certain that uses will be found for them in safer places. All my prayers are with you, and I hope that this letter finds you in good health. Your loving father, Johan Rots
Well things are brewing up further. The US response is over the top in terms of 'returning' overseas territories, especially with a 7 day deadline as there's probably nothing to return as the regions in discussion have presumably been under Dutch rule for a while but it sounds like there's a high probability that there will be war between the two powers soon! [The status of Dutch occupied Japan is probably an exception given its going to be so important to Japan and the population is probably both largely Japanese and unhappy with being under Dutch rule.]
It does sound like the Dutch are more bigoted than most of the people in OTL. Both in terms of using colonial troops which is something all the European powers were willing to do, unless this is just Johan being especially reactionary and Jakoba's comments about papists - plus the idea that somehow she had not realised before then that they were Catholic, which does suggest the reformation was more successful in their world. That could be another reason why OTL Belgians who are overwhelmingly Catholic may feel little loyalty to their new 'rulers'. Similarly with the fact she still sees it as nonsense that the OTL Netherlands had a monarchy as she must be aware of that by now.
Of course we're only getting the story through those two characters and I would have expected that OTL powers have been sending people to TTL Dutch to establish contact rather than simply waiting for the Dutch to contact them? Ditto that there are other Dutch missions to other OTL powers.
I know that the Dutch Home Fleet is substantial, possibly larger than the German HSF - depending on how many of the ~30 ships are pre-dreads. Can/will you tell us roughly the sort of size of their fleets, especially in Africa and S America, which are their other centres of power? For reference at this point Japan has 2 Kongo class BCs, the 2nd only literally being commissioned on 4-8-14 with 2 more under construction and later in WWI they built their 1st 4 dreadnought BBs. The USN, along with a number of pre-dreads had 10 dreadnoughts in service at this point with another 4 under construction, see List_of_battleships_of_the_United_States_Navy, for more details if you don't have such info to hand. there are similar lists for most of the other powers, noting that the British one is under List...Royal Navy rather than British or UK.
Steve
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Nov 23, 2018 20:20:03 GMT
So we can classify the Dutch-Japanese conflict as a war then. Well people are shooting at each other and ships have been sunk so I would call it that. Although I remember in 82 the Thatcher government tried to avoid it being called a war or conflict - never quite sure why as I definitely considered it as such.  Well Japan did not call the Second Sino-Japanese War a war but if i am right only the "The Japan–China Incident" , maybe Japan will call it The War of Netherlands Aggression ore something that will make it look like the Netherlands are the bad guys. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Nov 23, 2018 22:15:34 GMT
Well people are shooting at each other and ships have been sunk so I would call it that. Although I remember in 82 the Thatcher government tried to avoid it being called a war or conflict - never quite sure why as I definitely considered it as such. Well Japan did not call the Second Sino-Japanese War a war but if i am right only the "The Japan–China Incident" , maybe Japan will call it The War of Netherlands Aggression ore something that will make it look like the Netherlands are the bad guys.
There's an old saying, in English at least "If it looks like a duck, waddles like a duck and quacks like a duck then its a duck".  |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Nov 23, 2018 22:18:26 GMT
Well Japan did not call the Second Sino-Japanese War a war but if i am right only the "The Japan–China Incident" , maybe Japan will call it The War of Netherlands Aggression ore something that will make it look like the Netherlands are the bad guys. There's an old saying, in English at least "If it looks like a duck, waddles like a duck and quacks like a duck then its a duck". I do not think the Netherlands will give the Japanese the privilege of calling their conflict with Japan a war, but i could be wrong. |
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raunchel
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Post by raunchel on Nov 26, 2018 12:13:12 GMT
So we can classify the Dutch-Japanese conflict as a war then.
Well people are shooting at each other and ships have been sunk so I would call it that. Although I remember in 82 the Thatcher government tried to avoid it being called a war or conflict - never quite sure why as I definitely considered it as such. That's always one of those strange things. Lots of wars aren't called wars anymore. At the time, I think that plenty of colonial stuff wasn't actually called a war, but that mostly had to do with revolts even if they have all the traits of a war on the ground. Berlin, September 16, 1914Dear Father, I am truly happy that my little findings have proven useful. I plan to further develop such sources, but it all is so much work and I don’t have anyone else I can trust with such delicate matters. Not even Karen. It appears that there has been a major Austrian defeat that I wasn’t told about previously, with them sustaining tens of thousands of losses even as the Germans have defeated another Russian army. It makes me wonder why the Austrians appear to be so incompetent militarily, but all I could find is that people have doubts about their lack of unity and there are whispers of flaws in their leadership. So far, the palace is quite something to live in, but I must say, there are some flaws. There simply isn’t enough staff, and we can’t afford to have dozens of Germans all over the place. Naturally, I have employed some of the Dutch from our world, but they also can’t be fully trusted. One young woman, who had come here as a governess, even asked me about a queen. Can you believe such nonsense? At another reception, I was asked why I never wear white. My hostess, at the Austrian embassy, said that it would look marvelous with my complexion. I explained that I never wear white because to do so would amount to stating that I believe myself free from sin. You should have seen her face, she became as white as her dress, as did the other ladies. Only then did I realize that they were papist. It’s so strange how they can almost seem like regular people. Otherwise, we had a fine evening, and I like to think that I made many more friends. The more major event was when the North American ambassador paid us a visit. Mr Gerard is a slight and refined man, quite unlike what one would be given to expect about such characters. He carried with him a document, which he had been instructed to deliver to us. Uncle Sytzte however refused to accept it, because it was addressed to the Kingdom of the Netherlands. Naturally, we immediately informed The Hague about the North Americans presenting us with demands. The next day, the ambassador returned with a new document, this time properly addressed. This document came in the form of an ultimatum. Uncle Sytze was well enough to receive it, and as soon as we could, we sat down together to study it in detail as I transcribed everything for The Hague. They basically demand that we stop all hostilities in the American continent, even though we aren’t the aggressor. Furthermore, they demand that we return them their overseas territories, and want us to submit the territorial disputes we have with other American nations to their arbitration. They require our affirmation of their demands within seven days. The Hague has given instructions to play for time, although colonel van Speyk wanted to request an immediate declaration of war. A feeling that is most understandable, but we need time to send word to the American provinces, as well as some reinforcements from the African provinces of course. Somehow, it seems that the German authorities also are aware of this, as they appear much cooler now. I think that it is because they don’t want more enemies should we join them after all. I fear that we will be finding ourselves isolated unless the Germans are guilty in regards to the sinking of our ship, then we will have the Russians and French as our allies. If the English are guilty, we will have to fight them as well, and I fear that it might be too much for us to take on. Later today, I will speak to the North Americans in hope of mollifying them, we can’t use another war on the other side of the ocean when another is brewing here. They must be made to understand that we as a sovereign power cannot submit to foreign mediation. The Hague has given instructions for offers that we are allowed to make and I pray that peace may prevail. On a more personal note, I have received a letter from commander van Gent. He is a good writer, and I’m still surprised that he could have remembered me. He asked about my health and about the nature of what I am doing here, abroad. He also expressed his admiration for my patriotism. It was truly heart-warming. Naturally, I will write you about any further developments in that regard. I after all need you to protect me from my silliness. Your faithful daughter, Jakoba Antwerpen, September 19, 1914Dearest Jakoba, It fills me with so many worries that you have to stay in such faithless surroundings. Has there been any progress with gaining further staff at the embassy? Please, don’t let these matters of war worry you overly much. Our navy remains the most powerful in the world, and if we are forced to act, we will deal with anyone who dares to insult our honour. The colonel clearly has his heart in the right place, but I’m happy that you could control his shortsightedness. I wish that I could go myself, but we have to remain here in order to contain the English. I have however been told that we will not be getting naval reinforcements form the south African provinces, as some of them are moving to the far east, while most will be moving to the west. It is good that you have replied to commander van Gent, and I encourage you to maintain your correspondence. It will provide you with some grounding in normal life. Please, don’t get overly attached to the luxuries that now surround you and ask Uncle Sytze to pray with you. Our demonstration at the English coast went well. We were barely challenged, although I later heard that airships had found their battle squadrons moving out from their Scottish bases. Yesterday, I was at the naval academy to give a brief lecture, and had the opportunity to see Johannes. He is finding his place and his teachers assure me that he is one of the best students. Within the year, he will have his first posting, although I already have a few ideas for assignments that might be suitable for him. But now I’ll be back to sea to receive another African troop convoy. There even is word that they will send colonial troops, although there is a serious debate about it in the estates as despite their white officers, the men remain closer to beasts than we would like to see here. But I’m certain that uses will be found for them in safer places. All my prayers are with you, and I hope that this letter finds you in good health. Your loving father, Johan Rots
Well things are brewing up further. The US response is over the top in terms of 'returning' overseas territories, especially with a 7 day deadline as there's probably nothing to return as the regions in discussion have presumably been under Dutch rule for a while but it sounds like there's a high probability that there will be war between the two powers soon! [The status of Dutch occupied Japan is probably an exception given its going to be so important to Japan and the population is probably both largely Japanese and unhappy with being under Dutch rule.]
It does sound like the Dutch are more bigoted than most of the people in OTL. Both in terms of using colonial troops which is something all the European powers were willing to do, unless this is just Johan being especially reactionary and Jakoba's comments about papists - plus the idea that somehow she had not realised before then that they were Catholic, which does suggest the reformation was more successful in their world. That could be another reason why OTL Belgians who are overwhelmingly Catholic may feel little loyalty to their new 'rulers'. Similarly with the fact she still sees it as nonsense that the OTL Netherlands had a monarchy as she must be aware of that by now.
Of course we're only getting the story through those two characters and I would have expected that OTL powers have been sending people to TTL Dutch to establish contact rather than simply waiting for the Dutch to contact them? Ditto that there are other Dutch missions to other OTL powers.
I know that the Dutch Home Fleet is substantial, possibly larger than the German HSF - depending on how many of the ~30 ships are pre-dreads. Can/will you tell us roughly the sort of size of their fleets, especially in Africa and S America, which are their other centres of power? For reference at this point Japan has 2 Kongo class BCs, the 2nd only literally being commissioned on 4-8-14 with 2 more under construction and later in WWI they built their 1st 4 dreadnought BBs. The USN, along with a number of pre-dreads had 10 dreadnoughts in service at this point with another 4 under construction, see List_of_battleships_of_the_United_States_Navy, for more details if you don't have such info to hand. there are similar lists for most of the other powers, noting that the British one is under List...Royal Navy rather than British or UK.
Steve
The US is indeed overreacting. They basically want an agreement from the Dutch within seven days. One of the main reasons behind it is that the Wilson government has to show its strength, especially with it already being September, and there being elections in November. This will be something to affect multiple countries, because it is an issue that especially democracies face. Although even the Tsar partially based decisions on public opinion of course. The Dutch-Japanese war (for lack of a better term right now), is practically unavoidable. The Japanese simply can't accept part of their country being a colony (an absolutely excellent way to get assassinated even at this date, or it could even lead to a popular revolt). At the same time, the Dutch can't lose face (internally and externally) by giving in to an Asian power. That's simply unacceptable. In terms of bigotry, there are a few things that stand out. The religious side indeed is something, but it's important to keep in mind that the Dutch have always been a fairly religious people. And I think that it might also play a part that I'm from a more orthodox background, so writing things like that comes fairly naturally. Things like the comments about people being Catholic have more to do with her general surprise at their mores. She simply isn't used to being around such people so little things still stand out. This may indeed cause quite some issues with OTL Dutch and Belgians, a fair number of them would have been Catholic and might not take all that well to this. This will also be interesting concerning the Congo of course. The native troops are a bit of an issue, but it's not something that everyone is opposed to. There however are political parties that would rather not see them brought to Europe. There are several factors behind this. One is them being recruited from what they call warrior peoples (Venda, Moluccans, Yanomami, and a few others). These have a been given a reputation for savagery and fierceness in battle. There are advantages to this, like them terrifying their enemies (it can also be seen with the Gurkhas for instance), but at the same time, that reputation makes it harder to have them moved to the European territories. At the same time, there are all the typical racist fears. Johan is very far from being a liberal person, and Jakoba basically nods and agrees. The thing about the queen is more that the woman who asked Jakoba wasn't entirely certain. There are other diplomatic missions as well, with more departing and arriving all the time. Most European countries have ambassadors in the Netherlands and have new Dutch ambassadors (although the second part is a bit harder because there is a serious shortage of diplomats, especially because the foreign ministry also has to be manned). In terms of capital ships, the Dutch home fleet has 21 dreadnoughts and 6 battlecruisers. There are six dreadnoughts in South America, along with a single battlecruiser. South Africa has five dreadnoughts and a pair of battlecruisers while the Canaries have three of the older dreadnoughts and a single battlecruiser. There also are three battlecruisers spread out over the colonies. Naturally, there is a whole bunch of cruisers and smaller ships, but I'm too lazy to properly catalogue all of them. The same goes for the predreads. There are some 40 of them left, but especially the slightly older ones are suffering from manning issues and only a few of the more recent ones are still used to bulk out the main battlefleets. Their fleet might be a fair bit larger than the HSF, but they had much closer naval competitors so were forced to keep their ships in some kind of service. Basically, the Dutch have the naval strength to take on a single enemy. A second however would become very difficult. The Japanese would be a pain because they're so close to Formosa, so they can't just be left alone. At the same time, the Americans have a sizeable navy that's only growing, so even if a war doesn't break out there, they will have to keep a strong fleet there to secure some rather vital areas. The British/German situation is the same. It's not possible to send too many ships to other warzones without critically threatening the homeland. Only the South African fleet can really spare some ships, and they are being drawn in all directions. Strategically, it's not possible to try some sort of Schlieffen Plan by smashing enemy fleets one after the other. The European Netherlands are very vulnerable to even a moment of weakness (blockades can hurt a lot to highly urbanised areas), and even worse, so of the most important cities can be shelled from the sea. Or someone might see a soft underbelly somewhere. The same goes for most other areas. Well people are shooting at each other and ships have been sunk so I would call it that. Although I remember in 82 the Thatcher government tried to avoid it being called a war or conflict - never quite sure why as I definitely considered it as such. Well Japan did not call the Second Sino-Japanese War a war but if i am right only the "The Japan–China Incident" , maybe Japan will call it The War of Netherlands Aggression ore something that will make it look like the Netherlands are the bad guys. That's what the Japanese might say! But the Dutch will call it something else of course. I just have to think of something good. Well Japan did not call the Second Sino-Japanese War a war but if i am right only the "The Japan–China Incident" , maybe Japan will call it The War of Netherlands Aggression ore something that will make it look like the Netherlands are the bad guys.
There's an old saying, in English at least "If it looks like a duck, waddles like a duck and quacks like a duck then its a duck". But is it called a duck? There's an old saying, in English at least "If it looks like a duck, waddles like a duck and quacks like a duck then its a duck". I do not think the Netherlands will give the Japanese the privilege of calling their conflict with Japan a war, but i could be wrong. I'm working on something. I promise. |
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raunchel
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Post by raunchel on Nov 26, 2018 12:14:06 GMT
Berlin, September 23, 1914
Dear Father,
Thank you so much for telling me Johannes is fine. He might be almost a man now, but I still see my little brother and can’t help worrying for him. I have also sent him a postcard from Berlin, I hope that he will be happy to receive it.
I must confess, what I hear of the fighting becomes more and more confusing, especially when it concerns the east. There are constant battles in places with unpronounceable names, but overall, it seems that the Germans are winning while the Austrians are suffering. I’ve heard that the reversals are much greater than they have let on even, and that the Germans will be sending reinforcements to their ally.
But what most concerns you probably is the North American situation. I have spoken with their ambassador and his wife in a more informal meeting. During it, I brought forward some points that I hoped their government would understand, especially that we needed time to properly communicate and that we never had any quarrel with them.
The Gerards understood my points, but they explained that they felt obliged to act because popular pressure was quite awful, and it seems that there is this rabble-rouser called Roosevelt, who once presided their republic, who is putting on a lot of pressure on the sitting president because he still retains quite a bit of popularity. I wish that our mission there had already arrived, but they only just departed from Rotterdam. This unfortunately leaves us as one of the main channels between our governments.
Anyways, I urged them to inform their government that it would be most unwise to start a war with us. Not only because we have a strong military, but also because I believe that far more could be achieved if we would trade in peace. We found plenty of common ground, they too are protestant, and are a republic. I expressed my sorrow for their loss of territory, and said that we did not choose to take their territories. I also said that we could reach an accommodation regarding some islands in the Carribean.
I hope that I managed to convince them. They however were kind enough to be willing to send a letter to several of their major papers, allowing us to explain our position. Because of the urgency of the situation, I drafted it together with Uncle Sytze before it was delivered. They also mentioned an extension of the ultimatum to be possible, which would do much to relief my heart of my many fears. I know that he is in God’s hands, but I still think of Karel and feel a deep sorrow.
Of course, there have also been so many other things going on. The day after tomorrow, we will host our first major reception as a kind of introduction to the city and the diplomatic corps now that we have our own building. This will be quite a major event, so I’m spending a lot of time getting things ready.
In between everything, I found the opportunity to visit the museums with Karen. To my surprise, they have quite a few works by Dutch artists, and to my relief, we were known for that in this strange world as well. In some ways, I felt truly impressed, some of the works were simply awe-inspiring and when I looked through some books, I felt truly saddened that so much beauty from this world has been lost.
I’m sorry for my short letter, but duty calls.
Your loving daughter,
Jakoba
Battlecruiser Geloof, September 26, 1914
Dearest Jakoba,
This ultimatum was widely reported in the newspapers, and I have heard many demands for war with the North Americans. You are right that it would not be the most strategically desirable, but you must understand that we have our national honour to think of. Simply handing over our colonies because they demand it is the behaviour of a lesser power, not fitting for us.
Please, whatever happens, don’t blame yourself. You have done the best you can, and you have to remember that you’re only a woman. It’s a shame that Uncle Sytze is unwell, but I’m certain that soon enough, more assistance will arrive. But at least you can now do what you came for, host an event. I’m certain that it will have been a fantastic success.
There has been an English provocation with their battlefleet making a demonstration, sailing right toward our coast before turning away within sight. Naturally, we sortied in response, but we didn’t arrive in time to put ourselves between them and Petten. There has been outrage about it in the estates, and more airship patrols have been ordered. Admiral Kuypers has also seen his position threatened, but I will inform you as soon as I know more.
An expedition against the Japanese has also been sent from Kaapstad, led by Rear Admiral Oude Luttinkhuis. He is an old friend of mine, and I am quite certain that you will be happy to hear that he will be commanding the expedition from the battleship Plakkaat van Verlatinghe, and will build a serious force around it that should be more than capable of sinking every last Japanese ship in revenge for Karel.
I know that it doesn’t matter much to you, you still bear your loss, but your mother believes that you can bear yourself well.
Your loving father,
Johan Rots
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Nov 26, 2018 15:59:29 GMT
Well people are shooting at each other and ships have been sunk so I would call it that. Although I remember in 82 the Thatcher government tried to avoid it being called a war or conflict - never quite sure why as I definitely considered it as such. That's always one of those strange things. Lots of wars aren't called wars anymore. At the time, I think that plenty of colonial stuff wasn't actually called a war, but that mostly had to do with revolts even if they have all the traits of a war on the ground.
Well things are brewing up further. The US response is over the top in terms of 'returning' overseas territories, especially with a 7 day deadline as there's probably nothing to return as the regions in discussion have presumably been under Dutch rule for a while but it sounds like there's a high probability that there will be war between the two powers soon! [The status of Dutch occupied Japan is probably an exception given its going to be so important to Japan and the population is probably both largely Japanese and unhappy with being under Dutch rule.]
It does sound like the Dutch are more bigoted than most of the people in OTL. Both in terms of using colonial troops which is something all the European powers were willing to do, unless this is just Johan being especially reactionary and Jakoba's comments about papists - plus the idea that somehow she had not realised before then that they were Catholic, which does suggest the reformation was more successful in their world. That could be another reason why OTL Belgians who are overwhelmingly Catholic may feel little loyalty to their new 'rulers'. Similarly with the fact she still sees it as nonsense that the OTL Netherlands had a monarchy as she must be aware of that by now.
Of course we're only getting the story through those two characters and I would have expected that OTL powers have been sending people to TTL Dutch to establish contact rather than simply waiting for the Dutch to contact them? Ditto that there are other Dutch missions to other OTL powers.
I know that the Dutch Home Fleet is substantial, possibly larger than the German HSF - depending on how many of the ~30 ships are pre-dreads. Can/will you tell us roughly the sort of size of their fleets, especially in Africa and S America, which are their other centres of power? For reference at this point Japan has 2 Kongo class BCs, the 2nd only literally being commissioned on 4-8-14 with 2 more under construction and later in WWI they built their 1st 4 dreadnought BBs. The USN, along with a number of pre-dreads had 10 dreadnoughts in service at this point with another 4 under construction, see List_of_battleships_of_the_United_States_Navy, for more details if you don't have such info to hand. there are similar lists for most of the other powers, noting that the British one is under List...Royal Navy rather than British or UK.
Steve
The US is indeed overreacting. They basically want an agreement from the Dutch within seven days. One of the main reasons behind it is that the Wilson government has to show its strength, especially with it already being September, and there being elections in November. This will be something to affect multiple countries, because it is an issue that especially democracies face. Although even the Tsar partially based decisions on public opinion of course. The Dutch-Japanese war (for lack of a better term right now), is practically unavoidable. The Japanese simply can't accept part of their country being a colony (an absolutely excellent way to get assassinated even at this date, or it could even lead to a popular revolt). At the same time, the Dutch can't lose face (internally and externally) by giving in to an Asian power. That's simply unacceptable. In terms of bigotry, there are a few things that stand out. The religious side indeed is something, but it's important to keep in mind that the Dutch have always been a fairly religious people. And I think that it might also play a part that I'm from a more orthodox background, so writing things like that comes fairly naturally. Things like the comments about people being Catholic have more to do with her general surprise at their mores. She simply isn't used to being around such people so little things still stand out. This may indeed cause quite some issues with OTL Dutch and Belgians, a fair number of them would have been Catholic and might not take all that well to this. This will also be interesting concerning the Congo of course. The native troops are a bit of an issue, but it's not something that everyone is opposed to. There however are political parties that would rather not see them brought to Europe. There are several factors behind this. One is them being recruited from what they call warrior peoples (Venda, Moluccans, Yanomami, and a few others). These have a been given a reputation for savagery and fierceness in battle. There are advantages to this, like them terrifying their enemies (it can also be seen with the Gurkhas for instance), but at the same time, that reputation makes it harder to have them moved to the European territories. At the same time, there are all the typical racist fears. Johan is very far from being a liberal person, and Jakoba basically nods and agrees. The thing about the queen is more that the woman who asked Jakoba wasn't entirely certain. There are other diplomatic missions as well, with more departing and arriving all the time. Most European countries have ambassadors in the Netherlands and have new Dutch ambassadors (although the second part is a bit harder because there is a serious shortage of diplomats, especially because the foreign ministry also has to be manned). In terms of capital ships, the Dutch home fleet has 21 dreadnoughts and 6 battlecruisers. There are six dreadnoughts in South America, along with a single battlecruiser. South Africa has five dreadnoughts and a pair of battlecruisers while the Canaries have three of the older dreadnoughts and a single battlecruiser. There also are three battlecruisers spread out over the colonies. Naturally, there is a whole bunch of cruisers and smaller ships, but I'm too lazy to properly catalogue all of them. The same goes for the predreads. There are some 40 of them left, but especially the slightly older ones are suffering from manning issues and only a few of the more recent ones are still used to bulk out the main battlefleets. Their fleet might be a fair bit larger than the HSF, but they had much closer naval competitors so were forced to keep their ships in some kind of service. Basically, the Dutch have the naval strength to take on a single enemy. A second however would become very difficult. The Japanese would be a pain because they're so close to Formosa, so they can't just be left alone. At the same time, the Americans have a sizeable navy that's only growing, so even if a war doesn't break out there, they will have to keep a strong fleet there to secure some rather vital areas. The British/German situation is the same. It's not possible to send too many ships to other warzones without critically threatening the homeland. Only the South African fleet can really spare some ships, and they are being drawn in all directions. Strategically, it's not possible to try some sort of Schlieffen Plan by smashing enemy fleets one after the other. The European Netherlands are very vulnerable to even a moment of weakness (blockades can hurt a lot to highly urbanised areas), and even worse, so of the most important cities can be shelled from the sea. Or someone might see a soft underbelly somewhere. The same goes for most other areas. Well Japan did not call the Second Sino-Japanese War a war but if i am right only the "The Japan–China Incident" , maybe Japan will call it The War of Netherlands Aggression ore something that will make it look like the Netherlands are the bad guys. That's what the Japanese might say! But the Dutch will call it something else of course. I just have to think of something good.
There's an old saying, in English at least "If it looks like a duck, waddles like a duck and quacks like a duck then its a duck". But is it called a duck? I do not think the Netherlands will give the Japanese the privilege of calling their conflict with Japan a war, but i could be wrong. I'm working on something. I promise.
Raunchel
Thanks for that info. That Dutch fleet is I'm pretty certain the largest in the world at this point. The British RN at this point had 10x12" and 10x13.5" dreadnoughts, with 2 more of the latter and 10x15" ships under construction at this point. Along with 3 ships taken over which were being constructed for other powers. [Agrincourt and Erin being ready for service and Canada being deployed in 1915.] It also had 6x12" BCs [including Australia which was technically in the Australian navy] and 3x13.5" BCs along with one more under construction. OTL the outbreak of war meant other planned ships, 3 more R class and a 6th Queen Elizebeth class being considered and given the circumstances at least some of them might be completed. Think there were ~40 pre-dreads. Most of this force was concerntrated in home waters although 2 I class BCs were in the Med [possibly 3] and 1 in Australia.
That's a grand total of 22 dreads and 9 BCs - although the 6 of the 2 I class were technically DAC [Dreadnought Armoured cruisers] designed to hunt down raiders and provide a powerful scouting force to drive away defeat enemy scouts. As I say there's another 13BB and 1BC, including the Canada, under construction at some level or another but the R's especially are some time from completion, one hindered by a problem with the launch IIRC not being completed until 1917.
Compared to that I total 34BBs and 13Bcs for the Dutch force so I'm glad their spread around the world! I'm rather surprised at those numbers as by the sound of it England - with a smaller empire and excluding Scotland, is weaker and France, Germany and Russia aren't unified major powers. Ditto it sounds like there's not a great power in N America and we know there's no equivalent to Japan where they come from so not sure why such a large fleet. Unless some other power - Spain possibly or Turkey is a threat or England is really busting a gut to keep up with the Dutch. [Which might be the case given the geographical proximity and the hostility between the two.] Know Poland is strong but that's almost certainly a continental power given geography. Sweden, if it keeps its Baltic empire and possibly includes Denmark and/or Norway could be another big rival. Anyway initial thoughts.
As always "is it called a duck" depends on who you ask.
Steve
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Nov 26, 2018 16:06:45 GMT
Berlin, September 23, 1914Dear Father, Thank you so much for telling me Johannes is fine. He might be almost a man now, but I still see my little brother and can’t help worrying for him. I have also sent him a postcard from Berlin, I hope that he will be happy to receive it. I must confess, what I hear of the fighting becomes more and more confusing, especially when it concerns the east. There are constant battles in places with unpronounceable names, but overall, it seems that the Germans are winning while the Austrians are suffering. I’ve heard that the reversals are much greater than they have let on even, and that the Germans will be sending reinforcements to their ally. But what most concerns you probably is the North American situation. I have spoken with their ambassador and his wife in a more informal meeting. During it, I brought forward some points that I hoped their government would understand, especially that we needed time to properly communicate and that we never had any quarrel with them. The Gerards understood my points, but they explained that they felt obliged to act because popular pressure was quite awful, and it seems that there is this rabble-rouser called Roosevelt, who once presided their republic, who is putting on a lot of pressure on the sitting president because he still retains quite a bit of popularity. I wish that our mission there had already arrived, but they only just departed from Rotterdam. This unfortunately leaves us as one of the main channels between our governments. Anyways, I urged them to inform their government that it would be most unwise to start a war with us. Not only because we have a strong military, but also because I believe that far more could be achieved if we would trade in peace. We found plenty of common ground, they too are protestant, and are a republic. I expressed my sorrow for their loss of territory, and said that we did not choose to take their territories. I also said that we could reach an accommodation regarding some islands in the Carribean. I hope that I managed to convince them. They however were kind enough to be willing to send a letter to several of their major papers, allowing us to explain our position. Because of the urgency of the situation, I drafted it together with Uncle Sytze before it was delivered. They also mentioned an extension of the ultimatum to be possible, which would do much to relief my heart of my many fears. I know that he is in God’s hands, but I still think of Karel and feel a deep sorrow. Of course, there have also been so many other things going on. The day after tomorrow, we will host our first major reception as a kind of introduction to the city and the diplomatic corps now that we have our own building. This will be quite a major event, so I’m spending a lot of time getting things ready. In between everything, I found the opportunity to visit the museums with Karen. To my surprise, they have quite a few works by Dutch artists, and to my relief, we were known for that in this strange world as well. In some ways, I felt truly impressed, some of the works were simply awe-inspiring and when I looked through some books, I felt truly saddened that so much beauty from this world has been lost. I’m sorry for my short letter, but duty calls. Your loving daughter, Jakoba Battlecruiser Geloof, September 26, 1914Dearest Jakoba, This ultimatum was widely reported in the newspapers, and I have heard many demands for war with the North Americans. You are right that it would not be the most strategically desirable, but you must understand that we have our national honour to think of. Simply handing over our colonies because they demand it is the behaviour of a lesser power, not fitting for us. Please, whatever happens, don’t blame yourself. You have done the best you can, and you have to remember that you’re only a woman. It’s a shame that Uncle Sytze is unwell, but I’m certain that soon enough, more assistance will arrive. But at least you can now do what you came for, host an event. I’m certain that it will have been a fantastic success. There has been an English provocation with their battlefleet making a demonstration, sailing right toward our coast before turning away within sight. Naturally, we sortied in response, but we didn’t arrive in time to put ourselves between them and Petten. There has been outrage about it in the estates, and more airship patrols have been ordered. Admiral Kuypers has also seen his position threatened, but I will inform you as soon as I know more. An expedition against the Japanese has also been sent from Kaapstad, led by Rear Admiral Oude Luttinkhuis. He is an old friend of mine, and I am quite certain that you will be happy to hear that he will be commanding the expedition from the battleship Plakkaat van Verlatinghe, and will build a serious force around it that should be more than capable of sinking every last Japanese ship in revenge for Karel. I know that it doesn’t matter much to you, you still bear your loss, but your mother believes that you can bear yourself well. Your loving father, Johan Rots Good update raunchel. Interesting name for a battleship Plakkaat van Verlatinghe, but then again i think in the world where the Republic comes from this is a normal name. |
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stevep
Fleet admiral
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Post by stevep on Nov 26, 2018 16:08:22 GMT
Berlin, September 23, 1914Dear Father, Thank you so much for telling me Johannes is fine. He might be almost a man now, but I still see my little brother and can’t help worrying for him. I have also sent him a postcard from Berlin, I hope that he will be happy to receive it. I must confess, what I hear of the fighting becomes more and more confusing, especially when it concerns the east. There are constant battles in places with unpronounceable names, but overall, it seems that the Germans are winning while the Austrians are suffering. I’ve heard that the reversals are much greater than they have let on even, and that the Germans will be sending reinforcements to their ally. But what most concerns you probably is the North American situation. I have spoken with their ambassador and his wife in a more informal meeting. During it, I brought forward some points that I hoped their government would understand, especially that we needed time to properly communicate and that we never had any quarrel with them. The Gerards understood my points, but they explained that they felt obliged to act because popular pressure was quite awful, and it seems that there is this rabble-rouser called Roosevelt, who once presided their republic, who is putting on a lot of pressure on the sitting president because he still retains quite a bit of popularity. I wish that our mission there had already arrived, but they only just departed from Rotterdam. This unfortunately leaves us as one of the main channels between our governments. Anyways, I urged them to inform their government that it would be most unwise to start a war with us. Not only because we have a strong military, but also because I believe that far more could be achieved if we would trade in peace. We found plenty of common ground, they too are protestant, and are a republic. I expressed my sorrow for their loss of territory, and said that we did not choose to take their territories. I also said that we could reach an accommodation regarding some islands in the Carribean. I hope that I managed to convince them. They however were kind enough to be willing to send a letter to several of their major papers, allowing us to explain our position. Because of the urgency of the situation, I drafted it together with Uncle Sytze before it was delivered. They also mentioned an extension of the ultimatum to be possible, which would do much to relief my heart of my many fears. I know that he is in God’s hands, but I still think of Karel and feel a deep sorrow. Of course, there have also been so many other things going on. The day after tomorrow, we will host our first major reception as a kind of introduction to the city and the diplomatic corps now that we have our own building. This will be quite a major event, so I’m spending a lot of time getting things ready. In between everything, I found the opportunity to visit the museums with Karen. To my surprise, they have quite a few works by Dutch artists, and to my relief, we were known for that in this strange world as well. In some ways, I felt truly impressed, some of the works were simply awe-inspiring and when I looked through some books, I felt truly saddened that so much beauty from this world has been lost. I’m sorry for my short letter, but duty calls. Your loving daughter, Jakoba Battlecruiser Geloof, September 26, 1914Dearest Jakoba, This ultimatum was widely reported in the newspapers, and I have heard many demands for war with the North Americans. You are right that it would not be the most strategically desirable, but you must understand that we have our national honour to think of. Simply handing over our colonies because they demand it is the behaviour of a lesser power, not fitting for us. Please, whatever happens, don’t blame yourself. You have done the best you can, and you have to remember that you’re only a woman. It’s a shame that Uncle Sytze is unwell, but I’m certain that soon enough, more assistance will arrive. But at least you can now do what you came for, host an event. I’m certain that it will have been a fantastic success. There has been an English provocation with their battlefleet making a demonstration, sailing right toward our coast before turning away within sight. Naturally, we sortied in response, but we didn’t arrive in time to put ourselves between them and Petten. There has been outrage about it in the estates, and more airship patrols have been ordered. Admiral Kuypers has also seen his position threatened, but I will inform you as soon as I know more. An expedition against the Japanese has also been sent from Kaapstad, led by Rear Admiral Oude Luttinkhuis. He is an old friend of mine, and I am quite certain that you will be happy to hear that he will be commanding the expedition from the battleship Plakkaat van Verlatinghe, and will build a serious force around it that should be more than capable of sinking every last Japanese ship in revenge for Karel. I know that it doesn’t matter much to you, you still bear your loss, but your mother believes that you can bear yourself well. Your loving father, Johan Rots
Well some common sense in Berlin, which might avoid a US-Dutch war and I expected Teddy would be less than happy with the situation.
Johan seems totally unaware of why the RN would have carried out a 'provocation' given that's what the Dutch have just done! [Unfortunately there were and are still too many blinkered characters like that, who automatically apply double standards. One reason why WWI OTL was such a mess.] Also I wonder how much that "you’re only a woman" comment stung.
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raunchel
Commander
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Post by raunchel on Nov 26, 2018 16:13:25 GMT
That's always one of those strange things. Lots of wars aren't called wars anymore. At the time, I think that plenty of colonial stuff wasn't actually called a war, but that mostly had to do with revolts even if they have all the traits of a war on the ground. The US is indeed overreacting. They basically want an agreement from the Dutch within seven days. One of the main reasons behind it is that the Wilson government has to show its strength, especially with it already being September, and there being elections in November. This will be something to affect multiple countries, because it is an issue that especially democracies face. Although even the Tsar partially based decisions on public opinion of course. The Dutch-Japanese war (for lack of a better term right now), is practically unavoidable. The Japanese simply can't accept part of their country being a colony (an absolutely excellent way to get assassinated even at this date, or it could even lead to a popular revolt). At the same time, the Dutch can't lose face (internally and externally) by giving in to an Asian power. That's simply unacceptable. In terms of bigotry, there are a few things that stand out. The religious side indeed is something, but it's important to keep in mind that the Dutch have always been a fairly religious people. And I think that it might also play a part that I'm from a more orthodox background, so writing things like that comes fairly naturally. Things like the comments about people being Catholic have more to do with her general surprise at their mores. She simply isn't used to being around such people so little things still stand out. This may indeed cause quite some issues with OTL Dutch and Belgians, a fair number of them would have been Catholic and might not take all that well to this. This will also be interesting concerning the Congo of course. The native troops are a bit of an issue, but it's not something that everyone is opposed to. There however are political parties that would rather not see them brought to Europe. There are several factors behind this. One is them being recruited from what they call warrior peoples (Venda, Moluccans, Yanomami, and a few others). These have a been given a reputation for savagery and fierceness in battle. There are advantages to this, like them terrifying their enemies (it can also be seen with the Gurkhas for instance), but at the same time, that reputation makes it harder to have them moved to the European territories. At the same time, there are all the typical racist fears. Johan is very far from being a liberal person, and Jakoba basically nods and agrees. The thing about the queen is more that the woman who asked Jakoba wasn't entirely certain. There are other diplomatic missions as well, with more departing and arriving all the time. Most European countries have ambassadors in the Netherlands and have new Dutch ambassadors (although the second part is a bit harder because there is a serious shortage of diplomats, especially because the foreign ministry also has to be manned). In terms of capital ships, the Dutch home fleet has 21 dreadnoughts and 6 battlecruisers. There are six dreadnoughts in South America, along with a single battlecruiser. South Africa has five dreadnoughts and a pair of battlecruisers while the Canaries have three of the older dreadnoughts and a single battlecruiser. There also are three battlecruisers spread out over the colonies. Naturally, there is a whole bunch of cruisers and smaller ships, but I'm too lazy to properly catalogue all of them. The same goes for the predreads. There are some 40 of them left, but especially the slightly older ones are suffering from manning issues and only a few of the more recent ones are still used to bulk out the main battlefleets. Their fleet might be a fair bit larger than the HSF, but they had much closer naval competitors so were forced to keep their ships in some kind of service. Basically, the Dutch have the naval strength to take on a single enemy. A second however would become very difficult. The Japanese would be a pain because they're so close to Formosa, so they can't just be left alone. At the same time, the Americans have a sizeable navy that's only growing, so even if a war doesn't break out there, they will have to keep a strong fleet there to secure some rather vital areas. The British/German situation is the same. It's not possible to send too many ships to other warzones without critically threatening the homeland. Only the South African fleet can really spare some ships, and they are being drawn in all directions. Strategically, it's not possible to try some sort of Schlieffen Plan by smashing enemy fleets one after the other. The European Netherlands are very vulnerable to even a moment of weakness (blockades can hurt a lot to highly urbanised areas), and even worse, so of the most important cities can be shelled from the sea. Or someone might see a soft underbelly somewhere. The same goes for most other areas. That's what the Japanese might say! But the Dutch will call it something else of course. I just have to think of something good. But is it called a duck? I'm working on something. I promise.
Raunchel
Thanks for that info. That Dutch fleet is I'm pretty certain the largest in the world at this point. The British RN at this point had 10x12" and 10x13.5" dreadnoughts, with 2 more of the latter and 10x15" ships under construction at this point. Along with 3 ships taken over which were being constructed for other powers. [Agrincourt and Erin being ready for service and Canada being deployed in 1915.] It also had 6x12" BCs [including Australia which was technically in the Australian navy] and 3x13.5" BCs along with one more under construction. OTL the outbreak of war meant other planned ships, 3 more R class and a 6th Queen Elizebeth class being considered and given the circumstances at least some of them might be completed. Think there were ~40 pre-dreads. Most of this force was concerntrated in home waters although 2 I class BCs were in the Med [possibly 3] and 1 in Australia.
That's a grand total of 22 dreads and 9 BCs - although the 6 of the 2 I class were technically DAC [Dreadnought Armoured cruisers] designed to hunt down raiders and provide a powerful scouting force to drive away defeat enemy scouts. As I say there's another 13BB and 1BC, including the Canada, under construction at some level or another but the R's especially are some time from completion, one hindered by a problem with the launch IIRC not being completed until 1917.
Compared to that I total 34BBs and 13Bcs for the Dutch force so I'm glad their spread around the world! I'm rather surprised at those numbers as by the sound of it England - with a smaller empire and excluding Scotland, is weaker and France, Germany and Russia aren't unified major powers. Ditto it sounds like there's not a great power in N America and we know there's no equivalent to Japan where they come from so not sure why such a large fleet. Unless some other power - Spain possibly or Turkey is a threat or England is really busting a gut to keep up with the Dutch. [Which might be the case given the geographical proximity and the hostility between the two.] Know Poland is strong but that's almost certainly a continental power given geography. Sweden, if it keeps its Baltic empire and possibly includes Denmark and/or Norway could be another big rival. Anyway initial thoughts.
As always "is it called a duck" depends on who you ask.
Steve
Thanks! The fleet indeed is rather large (and more is under construction) which is mostly because of a few things. First of all, the navy is very good at arguing for funding and seeing potential enemies everywhere. And the public really likes it. Furthermore, they have three main areas to build ships, which all have to be kept busy. But yes, there were a fair few enemies. First of all, the English (who basically find themselves in an all-or-nothing arms race), but also the Swedes, the Danes, the Sicilians, the Turks, the Spanish, a few independent former colonies, and basically everyone who looks funny at a Dutch ship, because that will lead to local representatives demanding battleships being sent to protect their districts. At the same time, the fleets protecting the provinces can't really be weakened, so that means a lot of building (and taking funding from the army which doesn't really need it anyways). It really is global commitments on steroids (and high taxes. Never forget high taxes). For the first while, the number of ships will be going up as more are commissioned (there is a slight glut at the beginning because everything is sped up as much as possible, later on, that will slow down), but I expect that if it comes to a full war, few fleets will end it with more ships than they begin it with. Although, it's a pain to try to sink a dreadnought. |
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raunchel
Commander
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Post by raunchel on Nov 26, 2018 16:20:44 GMT
Berlin, September 23, 1914Dear Father, Thank you so much for telling me Johannes is fine. He might be almost a man now, but I still see my little brother and can’t help worrying for him. I have also sent him a postcard from Berlin, I hope that he will be happy to receive it. I must confess, what I hear of the fighting becomes more and more confusing, especially when it concerns the east. There are constant battles in places with unpronounceable names, but overall, it seems that the Germans are winning while the Austrians are suffering. I’ve heard that the reversals are much greater than they have let on even, and that the Germans will be sending reinforcements to their ally. But what most concerns you probably is the North American situation. I have spoken with their ambassador and his wife in a more informal meeting. During it, I brought forward some points that I hoped their government would understand, especially that we needed time to properly communicate and that we never had any quarrel with them. The Gerards understood my points, but they explained that they felt obliged to act because popular pressure was quite awful, and it seems that there is this rabble-rouser called Roosevelt, who once presided their republic, who is putting on a lot of pressure on the sitting president because he still retains quite a bit of popularity. I wish that our mission there had already arrived, but they only just departed from Rotterdam. This unfortunately leaves us as one of the main channels between our governments. Anyways, I urged them to inform their government that it would be most unwise to start a war with us. Not only because we have a strong military, but also because I believe that far more could be achieved if we would trade in peace. We found plenty of common ground, they too are protestant, and are a republic. I expressed my sorrow for their loss of territory, and said that we did not choose to take their territories. I also said that we could reach an accommodation regarding some islands in the Carribean. I hope that I managed to convince them. They however were kind enough to be willing to send a letter to several of their major papers, allowing us to explain our position. Because of the urgency of the situation, I drafted it together with Uncle Sytze before it was delivered. They also mentioned an extension of the ultimatum to be possible, which would do much to relief my heart of my many fears. I know that he is in God’s hands, but I still think of Karel and feel a deep sorrow. Of course, there have also been so many other things going on. The day after tomorrow, we will host our first major reception as a kind of introduction to the city and the diplomatic corps now that we have our own building. This will be quite a major event, so I’m spending a lot of time getting things ready. In between everything, I found the opportunity to visit the museums with Karen. To my surprise, they have quite a few works by Dutch artists, and to my relief, we were known for that in this strange world as well. In some ways, I felt truly impressed, some of the works were simply awe-inspiring and when I looked through some books, I felt truly saddened that so much beauty from this world has been lost. I’m sorry for my short letter, but duty calls. Your loving daughter, Jakoba Battlecruiser Geloof, September 26, 1914Dearest Jakoba, This ultimatum was widely reported in the newspapers, and I have heard many demands for war with the North Americans. You are right that it would not be the most strategically desirable, but you must understand that we have our national honour to think of. Simply handing over our colonies because they demand it is the behaviour of a lesser power, not fitting for us. Please, whatever happens, don’t blame yourself. You have done the best you can, and you have to remember that you’re only a woman. It’s a shame that Uncle Sytze is unwell, but I’m certain that soon enough, more assistance will arrive. But at least you can now do what you came for, host an event. I’m certain that it will have been a fantastic success. There has been an English provocation with their battlefleet making a demonstration, sailing right toward our coast before turning away within sight. Naturally, we sortied in response, but we didn’t arrive in time to put ourselves between them and Petten. There has been outrage about it in the estates, and more airship patrols have been ordered. Admiral Kuypers has also seen his position threatened, but I will inform you as soon as I know more. An expedition against the Japanese has also been sent from Kaapstad, led by Rear Admiral Oude Luttinkhuis. He is an old friend of mine, and I am quite certain that you will be happy to hear that he will be commanding the expedition from the battleship Plakkaat van Verlatinghe, and will build a serious force around it that should be more than capable of sinking every last Japanese ship in revenge for Karel. I know that it doesn’t matter much to you, you still bear your loss, but your mother believes that you can bear yourself well. Your loving father, Johan Rots Good update raunchel . Interesting name for a battleship Plakkaat van Verlatinghe, but then again i think in the world where the Republic comes from this is a normal name. It's not such a strange name for this setting. I mean, they need some names. All the battlecruisers are named after virtues, but battleships are more varied. In terms of names similar to it, there also is Vijf Artikelen, although that also is very religious in meaning. And besides, in our world, the Americans have names like Constitution, so it's not that bad. Berlin, September 23, 1914Dear Father, Thank you so much for telling me Johannes is fine. He might be almost a man now, but I still see my little brother and can’t help worrying for him. I have also sent him a postcard from Berlin, I hope that he will be happy to receive it. I must confess, what I hear of the fighting becomes more and more confusing, especially when it concerns the east. There are constant battles in places with unpronounceable names, but overall, it seems that the Germans are winning while the Austrians are suffering. I’ve heard that the reversals are much greater than they have let on even, and that the Germans will be sending reinforcements to their ally. But what most concerns you probably is the North American situation. I have spoken with their ambassador and his wife in a more informal meeting. During it, I brought forward some points that I hoped their government would understand, especially that we needed time to properly communicate and that we never had any quarrel with them. The Gerards understood my points, but they explained that they felt obliged to act because popular pressure was quite awful, and it seems that there is this rabble-rouser called Roosevelt, who once presided their republic, who is putting on a lot of pressure on the sitting president because he still retains quite a bit of popularity. I wish that our mission there had already arrived, but they only just departed from Rotterdam. This unfortunately leaves us as one of the main channels between our governments. Anyways, I urged them to inform their government that it would be most unwise to start a war with us. Not only because we have a strong military, but also because I believe that far more could be achieved if we would trade in peace. We found plenty of common ground, they too are protestant, and are a republic. I expressed my sorrow for their loss of territory, and said that we did not choose to take their territories. I also said that we could reach an accommodation regarding some islands in the Carribean. I hope that I managed to convince them. They however were kind enough to be willing to send a letter to several of their major papers, allowing us to explain our position. Because of the urgency of the situation, I drafted it together with Uncle Sytze before it was delivered. They also mentioned an extension of the ultimatum to be possible, which would do much to relief my heart of my many fears. I know that he is in God’s hands, but I still think of Karel and feel a deep sorrow. Of course, there have also been so many other things going on. The day after tomorrow, we will host our first major reception as a kind of introduction to the city and the diplomatic corps now that we have our own building. This will be quite a major event, so I’m spending a lot of time getting things ready. In between everything, I found the opportunity to visit the museums with Karen. To my surprise, they have quite a few works by Dutch artists, and to my relief, we were known for that in this strange world as well. In some ways, I felt truly impressed, some of the works were simply awe-inspiring and when I looked through some books, I felt truly saddened that so much beauty from this world has been lost. I’m sorry for my short letter, but duty calls. Your loving daughter, Jakoba Battlecruiser Geloof, September 26, 1914Dearest Jakoba, This ultimatum was widely reported in the newspapers, and I have heard many demands for war with the North Americans. You are right that it would not be the most strategically desirable, but you must understand that we have our national honour to think of. Simply handing over our colonies because they demand it is the behaviour of a lesser power, not fitting for us. Please, whatever happens, don’t blame yourself. You have done the best you can, and you have to remember that you’re only a woman. It’s a shame that Uncle Sytze is unwell, but I’m certain that soon enough, more assistance will arrive. But at least you can now do what you came for, host an event. I’m certain that it will have been a fantastic success. There has been an English provocation with their battlefleet making a demonstration, sailing right toward our coast before turning away within sight. Naturally, we sortied in response, but we didn’t arrive in time to put ourselves between them and Petten. There has been outrage about it in the estates, and more airship patrols have been ordered. Admiral Kuypers has also seen his position threatened, but I will inform you as soon as I know more. An expedition against the Japanese has also been sent from Kaapstad, led by Rear Admiral Oude Luttinkhuis. He is an old friend of mine, and I am quite certain that you will be happy to hear that he will be commanding the expedition from the battleship Plakkaat van Verlatinghe, and will build a serious force around it that should be more than capable of sinking every last Japanese ship in revenge for Karel. I know that it doesn’t matter much to you, you still bear your loss, but your mother believes that you can bear yourself well. Your loving father, Johan Rots
Well some common sense in Berlin, which might avoid a US-Dutch war and I expected Teddy would be less than happy with the situation.
Johan seems totally unaware of why the RN would have carried out a 'provocation' given that's what the Dutch have just done! [Unfortunately there were and are still too many blinkered characters like that, who automatically apply double standards. One reason why WWI OTL was such a mess.] Also I wonder how much that "you’re only a woman" comment stung.
They are trying their best to start a war. And Teddy indeed will be very unhappy. And things are even worse because of his last name. He really can't afford to back down. And for Johan, well, his middle name could very easily be 'double standard', although in reality it is Hendrik. The 'only a woman' comment is something that really hurts Jakoba very deeply, but she can't do anything about it. She knows that everyone sees her like that which only makes her more ambitious. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Nov 26, 2018 16:24:51 GMT
Raunchel
Thanks for that info. That Dutch fleet is I'm pretty certain the largest in the world at this point. The British RN at this point had 10x12" and 10x13.5" dreadnoughts, with 2 more of the latter and 10x15" ships under construction at this point. Along with 3 ships taken over which were being constructed for other powers. [Agrincourt and Erin being ready for service and Canada being deployed in 1915.] It also had 6x12" BCs [including Australia which was technically in the Australian navy] and 3x13.5" BCs along with one more under construction. OTL the outbreak of war meant other planned ships, 3 more R class and a 6th Queen Elizebeth class being considered and given the circumstances at least some of them might be completed. Think there were ~40 pre-dreads. Most of this force was concerntrated in home waters although 2 I class BCs were in the Med [possibly 3] and 1 in Australia.
That's a grand total of 22 dreads and 9 BCs - although the 6 of the 2 I class were technically DAC [Dreadnought Armoured cruisers] designed to hunt down raiders and provide a powerful scouting force to drive away defeat enemy scouts. As I say there's another 13BB and 1BC, including the Canada, under construction at some level or another but the R's especially are some time from completion, one hindered by a problem with the launch IIRC not being completed until 1917.
Compared to that I total 34BBs and 13Bcs for the Dutch force so I'm glad their spread around the world! I'm rather surprised at those numbers as by the sound of it England - with a smaller empire and excluding Scotland, is weaker and France, Germany and Russia aren't unified major powers. Ditto it sounds like there's not a great power in N America and we know there's no equivalent to Japan where they come from so not sure why such a large fleet. Unless some other power - Spain possibly or Turkey is a threat or England is really busting a gut to keep up with the Dutch. [Which might be the case given the geographical proximity and the hostility between the two.] Know Poland is strong but that's almost certainly a continental power given geography. Sweden, if it keeps its Baltic empire and possibly includes Denmark and/or Norway could be another big rival. Anyway initial thoughts.
As always "is it called a duck" depends on who you ask.
Steve
Thanks! The fleet indeed is rather large (and more is under construction) which is mostly because of a few things. First of all, the navy is very good at arguing for funding and seeing potential enemies everywhere. And the public really likes it. Furthermore, they have three main areas to build ships, which all have to be kept busy. But yes, there were a fair few enemies. First of all, the English (who basically find themselves in an all-or-nothing arms race), but also the Swedes, the Danes, the Sicilians, the Turks, the Spanish, a few independent former colonies, and basically everyone who looks funny at a Dutch ship, because that will lead to local representatives demanding battleships being sent to protect their districts. At the same time, the fleets protecting the provinces can't really be weakened, so that means a lot of building (and taking funding from the army which doesn't really need it anyways). It really is global commitments on steroids (and high taxes. Never forget high taxes). For the first while, the number of ships will be going up as more are commissioned (there is a slight glut at the beginning because everything is sped up as much as possible, later on, that will slow down), but I expect that if it comes to a full war, few fleets will end it with more ships than they begin it with. Although, it's a pain to try to sink a dreadnought.
On that last point WWI dreadnoughts proved vulnerable to underwater damage - from torpedoes, mines etc. Also 3 British BCs were sunk by magazine explosion [and another one and a German one nearly lost] although its still argued how much this was problems in protection, abandoning flash protection procedures and instability in cordite. Its also a fact that British [and some other nations] had problems with unreliable AP shells at non-perpendicular angles. What problems the Dutch may or may not have we [and I suspect they] are yet to find out.
However given how close they are to their home bases, at least for an Anglo-Dutch conflict, there is more chance for damaged ships to limp home.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Nov 26, 2018 16:33:41 GMT
Good update raunchel . Interesting name for a battleship Plakkaat van Verlatinghe, but then again i think in the world where the Republic comes from this is a normal name. It's not such a strange name for this setting. I mean, they need some names. All the battlecruisers are named after virtues, but battleships are more varied. In terms of names similar to it, there also is Vijf Artikelen, although that also is very religious in meaning. And besides, in our world, the Americans have names like Constitution, so it's not that bad.
Well some common sense in Berlin, which might avoid a US-Dutch war and I expected Teddy would be less than happy with the situation.
Johan seems totally unaware of why the RN would have carried out a 'provocation' given that's what the Dutch have just done! [Unfortunately there were and are still too many blinkered characters like that, who automatically apply double standards. One reason why WWI OTL was such a mess.] Also I wonder how much that "you’re only a woman" comment stung.
They are trying their best to start a war. And Teddy indeed will be very unhappy. And things are even worse because of his last name. He really can't afford to back down. And for Johan, well, his middle name could very easily be 'double standard', although in reality it is Hendrik. The 'only a woman' comment is something that really hurts Jakoba very deeply, but she can't do anything about it. She knows that everyone sees her like that which only makes her more ambitious.
Yes I found the meaning of the name on Wiki. The US Constitution is probably the closest in OTL, although the Argentinians had ships named after the 25th May, the date of their independence declaration and the Soviet ones after the October revolution for instance. BCs named after virtues might sound a bit odd to OTL.
True I forgot the family was Dutch in origin so that would be an additional problem for him, as well possibly as his young cousin, who's Assistant Secretary of the Navy at the moment. Coupled with Teddy's importance in building up the USN and having the US become more active in Latin America. Mind you he has never really recovered from the illness he suffered in S America in 1913/14 so could be restricted in how energetic he presses the issue. |
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raunchel
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Post by raunchel on Nov 26, 2018 18:04:11 GMT
Thanks! The fleet indeed is rather large (and more is under construction) which is mostly because of a few things. First of all, the navy is very good at arguing for funding and seeing potential enemies everywhere. And the public really likes it. Furthermore, they have three main areas to build ships, which all have to be kept busy. But yes, there were a fair few enemies. First of all, the English (who basically find themselves in an all-or-nothing arms race), but also the Swedes, the Danes, the Sicilians, the Turks, the Spanish, a few independent former colonies, and basically everyone who looks funny at a Dutch ship, because that will lead to local representatives demanding battleships being sent to protect their districts. At the same time, the fleets protecting the provinces can't really be weakened, so that means a lot of building (and taking funding from the army which doesn't really need it anyways). It really is global commitments on steroids (and high taxes. Never forget high taxes). For the first while, the number of ships will be going up as more are commissioned (there is a slight glut at the beginning because everything is sped up as much as possible, later on, that will slow down), but I expect that if it comes to a full war, few fleets will end it with more ships than they begin it with. Although, it's a pain to try to sink a dreadnought.
On that last point WWI dreadnoughts proved vulnerable to underwater damage - from torpedoes, mines etc. Also 3 British BCs were sunk by magazine explosion [and another one and a German one nearly lost] although its still argued how much this was problems in protection, abandoning flash protection procedures and instability in cordite. Its also a fact that British [and some other nations] had problems with unreliable AP shells at non-perpendicular angles. What problems the Dutch may or may not have we [and I suspect they] are yet to find out.
However given how close they are to their home bases, at least for an Anglo-Dutch conflict, there is more chance for damaged ships to limp home.
That's true yes. I think I remember that not a single full battleship was ever sunk by shellfire, they were at best turned into twisted masses of floating metal. Especially in the North Sea, there should be a decent chance to get home alive. In the Pacific and Atlantic things of course are a little bit different. The Dutch will have some problems which they don't have a clue about. It's been a while since they had to fight a full on war, and no one should know of stupid little issues in advance. Except for the people responsible for the US torpedoes in WW2, they should have been shot for treason. It's not such a strange name for this setting. I mean, they need some names. All the battlecruisers are named after virtues, but battleships are more varied. In terms of names similar to it, there also is Vijf Artikelen, although that also is very religious in meaning. And besides, in our world, the Americans have names like Constitution, so it's not that bad. They are trying their best to start a war. And Teddy indeed will be very unhappy. And things are even worse because of his last name. He really can't afford to back down. And for Johan, well, his middle name could very easily be 'double standard', although in reality it is Hendrik. The 'only a woman' comment is something that really hurts Jakoba very deeply, but she can't do anything about it. She knows that everyone sees her like that which only makes her more ambitious.
Yes I found the meaning of the name on Wiki. The US Constitution is probably the closest in OTL, although the Argentinians had ships named after the 25th May, the date of their independence declaration and the Soviet ones after the October revolution for instance. BCs named after virtues might sound a bit odd to OTL.
True I forgot the family was Dutch in origin so that would be an additional problem for him, as well possibly as his young cousin, who's Assistant Secretary of the Navy at the moment. Coupled with Teddy's importance in building up the USN and having the US become more active in Latin America. Mind you he has never really recovered from the illness he suffered in S America in 1913/14 so could be restricted in how energetic he presses the issue. Ships named after virtues might appear to be a bit strange, but already in the 17th century the Dutch had ships named Liefde and the like. Here, they expanded it a little bit. And even the Brits had ships named after virtues like courage and the like. Teddy will be a lot of fun, he probably won't feature directly given his health situation and the distance involved, but he has is influence. And FDR of course will always be a rising star, but his further career will really be tied to the navy here if it comes to a war. I suspect that many people of Dutch descent will basically have to proof their loyalty, so being overly pro-Dutch might not be all that advisable. This is a different war from OTL WW1 because here, there is an actual enemy at the gates. |
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raunchel
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Post by raunchel on Nov 27, 2018 9:29:16 GMT
Berlin, September 29, 1914
Dear Father,
The reception has been a great success! Even the emperor came to visit us, and several of the most senior figures of the German government were present as well. The Grand Admiral also was present, and I had a brief conversation with him concerning the possibility of war with the North Americans. He believes that it will be difficult for us given the distances involved. I decided to not inform him of our preparations.
Just afterwards, we were joined by the emperor and a senior general, one Erich von Falkenheyn who has recently been made the head of their general staff. I didn’t ask much about the war, but together with Uncle Sytze, we briefly discussed what would happen if we found ourselves at war with the French. One issue that cropped up was that of the railways, as our lines simply don’t fit on each other. It seems that their tracks are 6,5 cm narrower than ours. In effect, that means that we simply can’t move trains that easily.
I proposed simply extending the railways a little and building simple transferring stations, where men and material can move from one train to the other on the other side of the platform. But that apparently is a stupid idea. So it will be an issue and it will be hard for the Germans to reinforce us. But fortunately, the same will apply to the French on the attack. There wasn’t much time, but we have decided to have a brief meeting along with our good colonel to discuss details.
Fortunately, there has been an extension of the American offer by a full two weeks, but there has been little talking. Mr Gerard has told me that they are still struggling with sending an embassy to us, because they fear for our intentions. It appears that in their press, some pretty awful lies have been printed about us. A few papers have printed our letter, but that seems to have done little but further incense their population, especially because this Roosevelt keeps demanding war. If things continue like this, we simply won’t have a choice.
At the same time, the investigation is showing that the Germans in all likelihood are innocent, which comes as a great relief, if only because Hendrik remains on their border. In the German newspapers, I have seen them blame the English for what has happened. It appears that there is some difficulty between the two countries, although the emperor at least seems fond of the English. But then again, he is related to their king.
The front between France and Germany appears to be stalling on both sides. I’ve heard about both armies basically constructing fortified defenses and attacking with terrible casualties. The fighting mostly takes place in France, just south of our border, stretching from our border around Bullioen from Sedan, past Verdun to Nancy and Belfort to the Swiss border. The numbers of dead and wounded I hear about are mind-numbing, but I’ve seen hospitals filled with wounded men. It’s utterly awful and I pray that we won’t have to see such things in our homeland.
That the English would dare to make a demonstration against our coast is most shocking, and I can understand why admiral Kuypers is having issues because of that. Commander van Gent has written me that it was a day of shame, and swore to me that he would do his utmost to prevent it ever happening again.
I must confess, it brings some joy to my heart to see that rear admiral Oude Luttinkhuis will be mounting an expedition against the Japanese. I was so worried over our people who remain on those islands, besieged by savages.
Together with Uncle Sytze, I have been trying to find powers who would be willing to assist us against the North Americans. It appears that the Mexicans have quite some issues with them, and there has even been fighting, so that might be an avenue worth pursuing. Other than that, few countries have any desire to get involved.
I’ve also spoken to a representative of the Chinese republic. They seemingly have plenty of internal issues, but bear quite some hostility to the Japanese. This man told me that if the war widens, the Chinese might declare their support for us. But he warned me about the alliance between the English and the Japanese which would apply as soon as two powers are at war with one of them.
Someone more interesting was a delegate from the Republic of Colombia. He raised the topic of the North Americans having forced them to agree to the independence of a northern region of their country, around Panama, that the North Americans see as strategically vital. He said that their government might join us in return for the restoration of their rights.
To also write something happier and less worrisome, I have been introduced to the most amazing cake that was apparently developed in Austria. The texture and chocolate-y taste are just heavenly.
Your loving daughter,
Jakoba
Battlecruiser Geloof, October 2, 1914
Dearest Jakoba,
Your attempts to maintain peace are truly admirable, but I fear that soon enough, the time for soft-mindedness will be over and true manly virtue will have to carry the burden of making war on our enemies. I too believe in peace, it is our sacred duty, but there are things that can’t be accepted.
War is dreadful, we all know that. And I am truly sorry if it has to come to that, because when the fighting is done, while we, men, might be covered in glory, whether dead or alive, you are left with the sorrows it brings. But life and death are never in a man’s hands, and we must be grateful for that.
The North Americans ought to back down soon because fleets are being readied for the attack. I have been told that secret orders have been sent to Nieuw-Holland to prepare for war and to destroy the North American fleets. To this, we can add the happy news of the Remonstrantie’s first sister ship, the Reformatie to have formally joined the fleet there.
The ships are being worked hard, as more and more convoys arrive and depart. The streets are filled with soldiers and everything seems like we already are at war. I pray that it will be glorious and victorious if war indeed is what must happen.
That the Germans appear to be innocent doesn’t greatly surprise me. There is increasing hostility at sea between us and the English, with them only wanting to provoke us while we desire peace. The men are becoming restless and there have been demands to just open fire that of course were suppressed. That the investigation doesn’t yield much on the English doesn’t overly surprise me, I’ve heard that they have been avoiding collaborations, claiming needs for secrecy.
But, what is far more important than any of this, my dearest daughter, please, be careful with what you describe as heavenly. It isn’t a reflection of the truth to call anything from this world by such a word.
Your loving father,
Johan Rots
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