stevep
Fleet admiral
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Post by stevep on Dec 11, 2018 11:22:29 GMT
Battlecruiser Geloof, November 30, 1914Dearest Jakoba, It does me good to hear that you have more women around you, but I do wonder, what is her background? It seems that her brother is an officer, which seems to be somewhat better, but you have to be careful with who you associate with. Your reputation is your most important asset and it is easily spoiled.
The American woman is trying to show you bluster, and besides, she’s only a woman. She wouldn’t know any better than to believe what the men around her are saying. I am convinced that they will be forced to sue for peace soon, especially now that our men are pushing south along the coastal plain, and have occupied the cities of Newark and Trenton. In the Japanese War, it has been reported that Oude Luttinkhuis has led a second naval engagement before he reached Nagasaki. Because of the number of enemy forces, he lacked the troops to force a landing there, but has put the enemy under fire. The government is starting to believe that we will need more men than we currently have available, and there now are voices calling for the recruitment of coloureds into special divisions, and perhaps even give them a fraction of the vote. Can you believe such nonsense? They don’t see that our martial spirit will prevail, especially when compared with our great industrial power. I pray that they won’t taint the navy by allowing such elements into our fleet. Due to a lull in the weather, our divers have been able to locate parts of the sunk submarine and will soon begin the work to salvage any evidence that can be found. I have ordered a brief rest for the fleet, to be fully ready when war is declared when we know who was guilty of the attack on us. From Mauritsstad, we have heard that the captured ships use different measurements from our own, so any parts will have to be produced specifically for them. That is an issue that can be overcome, but a greater issue will be that things like ammunition will also have to be produced to these standards. Quite some work will have to be done to change their guns. There has also been another most interesting discovery that you probably don’t care about, but it seems that of the American ships that were still under construction, the armour was unevenly divided, almost completely focused on vital areas while leaving others unprotected. Your mother has written that she will soon be returning from Ameland, but she isn’t quite certain when that will be. Your loving father, Johan Rots Berlin, December 3, 1914Dear Father, Elsbeth’s father is an officer in the army, which has allowed her an excellent education. Her family is devoted to the country, which, to be honest, they are taking a bit far. But I presume that that’s mere bluster. I am happy that the North American offensives are going well, but I fear that, despite the lack of North American soldiers, there will be significant needs of manpower and materials that would be better employed elsewhere. In that regard, recruiting coloureds is an understandable idea, but I fear that it will come at significant costs. The Equalists will see it as a way for them to profit further, and such people should be kept away from the reigns of government. Concerning the Japanese, I have received an unofficial invitation from the Japanese minister’s wife for a meeting. It came through Karen and, despite my doubts, I decided to attend. We met in the Swedish embassy, where the Japanese ambassador also was present. Unfortunately, Uncle Sytze was too busy to attend, leaving the task to me. That however had the advantage of nothing being official. The conversation lasted the whole afternoon, which intervened with my original plans to teach Elsbeth and Karen ice-skating, but duty always comes first. They told me that they would be interested in reaching a settlement. Naturally, I said that we would require the return of Nagasaki and several other concessions. To that, they revealed that they hold our citizens prisoner, and swore that no harm had come to them. Naturally, it is vital that they are retrieved, but we can’t just give in to such hostage-taking. I however admitted that such things could help us reach an eventual settlement. To them, returning us Nagasaki however appears to be a political impossibility. Given our other commitments, I believe that we would be better served by not committing to taking the whole country, if only because they seem to have a large and strong army. We spoke purely unofficially of course, it wasn’t a meeting between ambassadors. This allowed me to make a proposal that could perhaps allow them to make peace on a political level. They would give us Korea, the southern islands that we have taken, and their Chinese territories. In exchange, we would let them have Nagasaki. There would still have to be reparations of course, and, depending on the state of our prisoners, we would demand the handing over of those responsible for abuses. My mention of naval disarmament was met by surprise and shock, while the idea of the kind of trade agreements that we always impose almost had them leave. Fortunately, I could restore calm by mentioning the plight of the coloureds in Nagasaki, as well as the convert parts of the population. They seemingly had quite some dislike for them, and my idea for a population exchange with the islands that we are occupying was considered to be acceptable, should we come to an agreement on the other issues. In general, I believe that the Japanese will not give in very easily. They appear a much more tenacious people in this world, and have immense pride. They actually said that they want Formosa to be handed over to them, along with the islands north of it. Such a thing very simply is unacceptable. Because of what is happening in the Channel, I have taken preparations to have all documents destroyed quickly, van Speyk is staying with the papers and codes at all times, just in case something happens. Instructions about such things have also been given to other missions in other parts of the world. Your loving daughter, Jakoba
Raunchel
Ouch that 2nd paragraph from her father must have hurt Jakota. He really knows how to put his foot in it. Except of course he's completely oblivious to it.  I'm wondering if Jakota's comment about Elsbeth family is a subtle retort to him? Which unfortunately I suspect will go right over his head.
His racism is still prominent and also he seems to be unaware of the actually industrial strength of the US. Unless the combined Netherlands and overseas republics are a hell of a bigger powerhouse than I suspect.
Good that they have located the sub and hopefully that will be resolved soon.
The navy have started to realise that adopting ships from a foreign culture is going to be very difficult. However they have noticed the US use of an AoN [All or Nothing] protection system. Whether their fleet will start using it is an issue but that would be some time off. It does suggest that the Dutch don't use that. There were no other comments so probably no other significant differences from OTL ships of the period.
Sounds like there a more democratic group known as the Equalisers that seek to improve the plight of the non-Dutch populations of the empire and republic?
Think Jakota is being a lot more realist than her father about war with the US and its sheer size. Mind you she has probably actually spoken to people in Germany who know plenty about it or simply checked in some public libraries. Its very under-armed at the moment but if it gets the chance to get organised the Dutch forces are likely to face serious problems, especially if there's war elsewhere which looks likely. Doubly so since they seem to be expanding the area under their control which will stretch their forces even thinner. Voupled with war in the far east and almost certainly with a major power in Europe, almost certainly Germany - although possibly France - or just possibly a British sub commander who lost kin or friends on the cruiser sunk in the earlier clash. [Think that's highly unlikely but the only really feasible way a British sub might have been involved. However in that case I would suspect that other officers and crew would have stopped him when hearing what he was planning].
I can understand the Japanese reaction to the terms Jakota was suggesting. Control of all their colonies, being disarmed and totally under Dutch economic control. The only way that's going to happen is over a lot of dead Japanese and also many dead Dutch soldiers and they would find any occupation attempt a real disaster for them. Interesting that there are some coloured - presumably black? - people in Nagasaki.
Anyway another good update. I get the feeling the Dutch are digging a deep hole for themselves and finding a serious case of over-stretch in the near future. A very detailed story line your put together.
Steve
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raunchel
Commander
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Post by raunchel on Dec 11, 2018 14:16:51 GMT
Battlecruiser Geloof, November 30, 1914Dearest Jakoba, It does me good to hear that you have more women around you, but I do wonder, what is her background? It seems that her brother is an officer, which seems to be somewhat better, but you have to be careful with who you associate with. Your reputation is your most important asset and it is easily spoiled.
The American woman is trying to show you bluster, and besides, she’s only a woman. She wouldn’t know any better than to believe what the men around her are saying. I am convinced that they will be forced to sue for peace soon, especially now that our men are pushing south along the coastal plain, and have occupied the cities of Newark and Trenton. In the Japanese War, it has been reported that Oude Luttinkhuis has led a second naval engagement before he reached Nagasaki. Because of the number of enemy forces, he lacked the troops to force a landing there, but has put the enemy under fire. The government is starting to believe that we will need more men than we currently have available, and there now are voices calling for the recruitment of coloureds into special divisions, and perhaps even give them a fraction of the vote. Can you believe such nonsense? They don’t see that our martial spirit will prevail, especially when compared with our great industrial power. I pray that they won’t taint the navy by allowing such elements into our fleet. Due to a lull in the weather, our divers have been able to locate parts of the sunk submarine and will soon begin the work to salvage any evidence that can be found. I have ordered a brief rest for the fleet, to be fully ready when war is declared when we know who was guilty of the attack on us. From Mauritsstad, we have heard that the captured ships use different measurements from our own, so any parts will have to be produced specifically for them. That is an issue that can be overcome, but a greater issue will be that things like ammunition will also have to be produced to these standards. Quite some work will have to be done to change their guns. There has also been another most interesting discovery that you probably don’t care about, but it seems that of the American ships that were still under construction, the armour was unevenly divided, almost completely focused on vital areas while leaving others unprotected. Your mother has written that she will soon be returning from Ameland, but she isn’t quite certain when that will be. Your loving father, Johan Rots Berlin, December 3, 1914Dear Father, Elsbeth’s father is an officer in the army, which has allowed her an excellent education. Her family is devoted to the country, which, to be honest, they are taking a bit far. But I presume that that’s mere bluster. I am happy that the North American offensives are going well, but I fear that, despite the lack of North American soldiers, there will be significant needs of manpower and materials that would be better employed elsewhere. In that regard, recruiting coloureds is an understandable idea, but I fear that it will come at significant costs. The Equalists will see it as a way for them to profit further, and such people should be kept away from the reigns of government. Concerning the Japanese, I have received an unofficial invitation from the Japanese minister’s wife for a meeting. It came through Karen and, despite my doubts, I decided to attend. We met in the Swedish embassy, where the Japanese ambassador also was present. Unfortunately, Uncle Sytze was too busy to attend, leaving the task to me. That however had the advantage of nothing being official. The conversation lasted the whole afternoon, which intervened with my original plans to teach Elsbeth and Karen ice-skating, but duty always comes first. They told me that they would be interested in reaching a settlement. Naturally, I said that we would require the return of Nagasaki and several other concessions. To that, they revealed that they hold our citizens prisoner, and swore that no harm had come to them. Naturally, it is vital that they are retrieved, but we can’t just give in to such hostage-taking. I however admitted that such things could help us reach an eventual settlement. To them, returning us Nagasaki however appears to be a political impossibility. Given our other commitments, I believe that we would be better served by not committing to taking the whole country, if only because they seem to have a large and strong army. We spoke purely unofficially of course, it wasn’t a meeting between ambassadors. This allowed me to make a proposal that could perhaps allow them to make peace on a political level. They would give us Korea, the southern islands that we have taken, and their Chinese territories. In exchange, we would let them have Nagasaki. There would still have to be reparations of course, and, depending on the state of our prisoners, we would demand the handing over of those responsible for abuses. My mention of naval disarmament was met by surprise and shock, while the idea of the kind of trade agreements that we always impose almost had them leave. Fortunately, I could restore calm by mentioning the plight of the coloureds in Nagasaki, as well as the convert parts of the population. They seemingly had quite some dislike for them, and my idea for a population exchange with the islands that we are occupying was considered to be acceptable, should we come to an agreement on the other issues. In general, I believe that the Japanese will not give in very easily. They appear a much more tenacious people in this world, and have immense pride. They actually said that they want Formosa to be handed over to them, along with the islands north of it. Such a thing very simply is unacceptable. Because of what is happening in the Channel, I have taken preparations to have all documents destroyed quickly, van Speyk is staying with the papers and codes at all times, just in case something happens. Instructions about such things have also been given to other missions in other parts of the world. Your loving daughter, Jakoba
Raunchel
Ouch that 2nd paragraph from her father must have hurt Jakota. He really knows how to put his foot in it. Except of course he's completely oblivious to it. I'm wondering if Jakota's comment about Elsbeth family is a subtle retort to him? Which unfortunately I suspect will go right over his head.
His racism is still prominent and also he seems to be unaware of the actually industrial strength of the US. Unless the combined Netherlands and overseas republics are a hell of a bigger powerhouse than I suspect.
Good that they have located the sub and hopefully that will be resolved soon.
The navy have started to realise that adopting ships from a foreign culture is going to be very difficult. However they have noticed the US use of an AoN [All or Nothing] protection system. Whether their fleet will start using it is an issue but that would be some time off. It does suggest that the Dutch don't use that. There were no other comments so probably no other significant differences from OTL ships of the period.
Sounds like there a more democratic group known as the Equalisers that seek to improve the plight of the non-Dutch populations of the empire and republic?
Think Jakota is being a lot more realist than her father about war with the US and its sheer size. Mind you she has probably actually spoken to people in Germany who know plenty about it or simply checked in some public libraries. Its very under-armed at the moment but if it gets the chance to get organised the Dutch forces are likely to face serious problems, especially if there's war elsewhere which looks likely. Doubly so since they seem to be expanding the area under their control which will stretch their forces even thinner. Voupled with war in the far east and almost certainly with a major power in Europe, almost certainly Germany - although possibly France - or just possibly a British sub commander who lost kin or friends on the cruiser sunk in the earlier clash. [Think that's highly unlikely but the only really feasible way a British sub might have been involved. However in that case I would suspect that other officers and crew would have stopped him when hearing what he was planning].
I can understand the Japanese reaction to the terms Jakota was suggesting. Control of all their colonies, being disarmed and totally under Dutch economic control. The only way that's going to happen is over a lot of dead Japanese and also many dead Dutch soldiers and they would find any occupation attempt a real disaster for them. Interesting that there are some coloured - presumably black? - people in Nagasaki.
Anyway another good update. I get the feeling the Dutch are digging a deep hole for themselves and finding a serious case of over-stretch in the near future. A very detailed story line your put together.
Steve
Johan is very very good at hurting his daughter, especially because he just doesn't see what he's doing wrong. Jakoba indeed makes subtle comments, but those are more to give herself the feeling that she is standing up to him than anything that will ever have any kind of effect. He also is quite a horrible racist yes, although some of the things that he says are commonly thought. The combined provinces are quite a powerhouse, but they're no USA. They however have much more of a war industry and army right now, and at first can expand faster because they already have sufficient cadres in place. If they bring in the coloureds (which basically means, everyone of mixed white/something else heritage), they will also have the manpower. And should that fail, they can always try to recruit from other racial groups. The different ships will indeed be complicated. Things like hulls and the like are relatively simple, but more complicated parts will basically have to be rebuild from the ground up, or factories have to be built just for the parts of a few ships. The Equalisers are a bit like a socialist group, only with a stronger antiracist platform. Because there are so many mixed people, that is one of the groups they depend upon, also for organised labour. This slightly antiracist party is one that is growing in power, and people like Johan naturally fear them. But then again, he is a rather unpleasant man. Them being allowed in the army is one thing, but he will never tolerate them in the navy. Of course, he isn't the one who gets to decide. Jakoba indeed is more understanding. She isn't blinded by nationalist thinking, she doesn't believe in things like a people's martial spirit, and likes to look at what seems to matter to her, which means, things like wealth and manpower. She believes that Dutch strength comes from their immense economic power paired with the manpower they can bring to bear. She just doesn't believe in superior spirit overcoming anything. This has only been worsened by what she has seen in the hospitals. And yes, they are in the process of getting very badly overstretched, which is why Jakoba is doing her utmost to try to improve matters. |
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lordroel
Administrator
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Post by lordroel on Dec 11, 2018 16:49:52 GMT
Battlecruiser Geloof, November 30, 1914Dearest Jakoba, It does me good to hear that you have more women around you, but I do wonder, what is her background? It seems that her brother is an officer, which seems to be somewhat better, but you have to be careful with who you associate with. Your reputation is your most important asset and it is easily spoiled. The American woman is trying to show you bluster, and besides, she’s only a woman. She wouldn’t know any better than to believe what the men around her are saying. I am convinced that they will be forced to sue for peace soon, especially now that our men are pushing south along the coastal plain, and have occupied the cities of Newark and Trenton. In the Japanese War, it has been reported that Oude Luttinkhuis has led a second naval engagement before he reached Nagasaki. Because of the number of enemy forces, he lacked the troops to force a landing there, but has put the enemy under fire. The government is starting to believe that we will need more men than we currently have available, and there now are voices calling for the recruitment of coloureds into special divisions, and perhaps even give them a fraction of the vote. Can you believe such nonsense? They don’t see that our martial spirit will prevail, especially when compared with our great industrial power. I pray that they won’t taint the navy by allowing such elements into our fleet. Due to a lull in the weather, our divers have been able to locate parts of the sunk submarine and will soon begin the work to salvage any evidence that can be found. I have ordered a brief rest for the fleet, to be fully ready when war is declared when we know who was guilty of the attack on us. From Mauritsstad, we have heard that the captured ships use different measurements from our own, so any parts will have to be produced specifically for them. That is an issue that can be overcome, but a greater issue will be that things like ammunition will also have to be produced to these standards. Quite some work will have to be done to change their guns. There has also been another most interesting discovery that you probably don’t care about, but it seems that of the American ships that were still under construction, the armour was unevenly divided, almost completely focused on vital areas while leaving others unprotected. Your mother has written that she will soon be returning from Ameland, but she isn’t quite certain when that will be. Your loving father, Johan Rots Berlin, December 3, 1914Dear Father, Elsbeth’s father is an officer in the army, which has allowed her an excellent education. Her family is devoted to the country, which, to be honest, they are taking a bit far. But I presume that that’s mere bluster. I am happy that the North American offensives are going well, but I fear that, despite the lack of North American soldiers, there will be significant needs of manpower and materials that would be better employed elsewhere. In that regard, recruiting coloureds is an understandable idea, but I fear that it will come at significant costs. The Equalists will see it as a way for them to profit further, and such people should be kept away from the reigns of government. Concerning the Japanese, I have received an unofficial invitation from the Japanese minister’s wife for a meeting. It came through Karen and, despite my doubts, I decided to attend. We met in the Swedish embassy, where the Japanese ambassador also was present. Unfortunately, Uncle Sytze was too busy to attend, leaving the task to me. That however had the advantage of nothing being official. The conversation lasted the whole afternoon, which intervened with my original plans to teach Elsbeth and Karen ice-skating, but duty always comes first. They told me that they would be interested in reaching a settlement. Naturally, I said that we would require the return of Nagasaki and several other concessions. To that, they revealed that they hold our citizens prisoner, and swore that no harm had come to them. Naturally, it is vital that they are retrieved, but we can’t just give in to such hostage-taking. I however admitted that such things could help us reach an eventual settlement. To them, returning us Nagasaki however appears to be a political impossibility. Given our other commitments, I believe that we would be better served by not committing to taking the whole country, if only because they seem to have a large and strong army. We spoke purely unofficially of course, it wasn’t a meeting between ambassadors. This allowed me to make a proposal that could perhaps allow them to make peace on a political level. They would give us Korea, the southern islands that we have taken, and their Chinese territories. In exchange, we would let them have Nagasaki. There would still have to be reparations of course, and, depending on the state of our prisoners, we would demand the handing over of those responsible for abuses. My mention of naval disarmament was met by surprise and shock, while the idea of the kind of trade agreements that we always impose almost had them leave. Fortunately, I could restore calm by mentioning the plight of the coloureds in Nagasaki, as well as the convert parts of the population. They seemingly had quite some dislike for them, and my idea for a population exchange with the islands that we are occupying was considered to be acceptable, should we come to an agreement on the other issues. In general, I believe that the Japanese will not give in very easily. They appear a much more tenacious people in this world, and have immense pride. They actually said that they want Formosa to be handed over to them, along with the islands north of it. Such a thing very simply is unacceptable. Because of what is happening in the Channel, I have taken preparations to have all documents destroyed quickly, van Speyk is staying with the papers and codes at all times, just in case something happens. Instructions about such things have also been given to other missions in other parts of the world. Your loving daughter, Jakoba Another good update raunchel |
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raunchel
Commander
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Post by raunchel on Dec 12, 2018 8:19:13 GMT
Battlecruiser Geloof, December 6, 1914
Dearest Jakoba,
It’s good that this miss Elsbeth is from a decent family, I believe that she will make much better company for you. I truly hope that you found the opportunity later on to go ice-skating with her. I hope that you found the opportunity to celebrate Sinterklaas.
You shouldn’t worry overly much about the offensives in North America. Our men are now attacking a city named Philadelphia, where elements of their fleet remain trapped. There appears to be very little in terms of an organized army there, with most men armed only with rifles. There however is a major issue with francs-tireurs, but the army appears to be doing its utmost to deal with them and expects that soon enough, their activities will be fully repressed. In general, they appear to be utterly ignorant of the customs of war, and even use aeroplanes to throw explosives. They truly don’t understand that war is regulated for a reason.
The Japanese war seems to be going well, and we have received the first reports about the battles there. Trouw seems to have suffered extensive damage to the upper works, and the battlecruiser has been withdrawn to Formosa. In return, at least one enemy battlecruiser appears to have been forced to withdraw, and at least four old battleships have been sunk along with multiple light units. Admiral Oude Luttinkhuis is full of praise for their professional conduct at sea. It is surprising, but it seems that the yellows are more capable than the North Americans.
I know that it is part of your duties to speak to the Japanese, but I urge you to be careful. Easterners just can’t be trusted. It is important that they know what kind of demands we make of them, and I presume that they will give in to them, unless they want us to occupy the whole country. It seems that they have beaten the Russians, but based on what we know, the Russians just aren’t very capable militarily, they only have numbers going for them.
Perhaps you are right that we will need more manpower, but I don’t know if it is for the best to rely on coloureds for that. Yes, they share some of our blood, but only through shame. They could easily get the idea that they deserve more, and as you say, that plays right into the hands of the Equalists. They will proof to be the end of this country if they win power.
Parts of the sunk submarine have been retrieved, but nothing conclusive has been found yet. No bodies or papers have been retrieved, and it appears that the submarine suffered serious explosive damage on the inside. The weather remains troublesome, and we are hoping to soon find the opportunity for further investigations.
Your loving father,
Johan Rots
Berlin, December 10, 1914
Dear Father,
So much has been happening lately. The last few days, I spoke to the Japanese again, they had communicated with their government and had been given instructions to negotiate a ceasefire to lead into a peaceful settlement. Naturally, this filled me with joy, and after sending some messages to The Hague, Uncle Sytze was given permission to speak to them.
The ceasefire of course is only a preliminary document, and will be the foundation of a final settlement that is to be negotiated at Provintia. They agreed to immediately return to us our people as well as the coloureds and any prisoners the Japanese have taken, the local converts would be allowed to depart if they wish so. We have also been given full access to their waters. For now, we have allowed them to keep Nagasaki to avoid their government being toppled by public unrest.
Only a little later did I hear the cause for this. In an engagement of Nagasaki, the remaining enemy battlecruiser has been sunk, and her attendant ships forced away. Naturally, they believe that terms will be relatively light, and it is something that I would agree with. The ceasefire is to go into effect on the 12th, at midnight Japanese time.
After this complicated meeting, Uncle Sytze allowed me to share in a glass of jenever in celebration. I understand that men like it, but I have to confess, the taste is horrible and I would be happy to never have to take some again. I still have a bit of a headache from it.
But that hasn’t been the only thing. It seems that the Austrians have finally forced a breakthrough against Serbia, and are now approaching Belgrade. The fighting however seems to have been very hard, which is surprising for such a small country. The Germans have entered Warsaw, and are expecting to soon hold all the important parts of Poland. It also seems that the Turk has now declared war on Russia.
I have also been involved in discussions with our allies, and now also the Chilean minister who appeared rather subdued, which is only sensible due to his country’s loss. I assured him that it was in fact a victory for his nation, because they would from now on be free from the influence of the North Americans and would be under our protection. Naturally, they have been offered to join our American alliance, but are still considering it. More positively, it appears that Venezuela is now also open to joining us. I presume that it is because of the North American defeats.
It appears that the North Americans did abuse their position as the only meaningful power in the Americas, treating independent nations as colonies. Naturally, I assured them that we would respect their sovereignty, but are hopeful that they will align their foreign policies with ours.
Your loving daughter,
Jakoba
P.S.
Just as I was about to send this letter, instructions have arrived from The Hague as you will be well-aware by the time you receive my letter. All my papers are being destroyed and tomorrow, Uncle Sytze and I will present the emperor with an ultimatum. This letter should still reach you safely.
I fear having to say my goodbyes to the good and dear friends that I have made here, but am happy that I will be able to return to our beloved fatherland and to see Mother and you again. I would also be very much interested in meeting Commander van der Bilt in person, if you will permit me.
Naturally, I will settle the payment of any and all staff we retain after delivering the ultimatum. I pray that the Germans will behave in a civilized manner as they did towards the French and Russians, and allow us to depart peacefully. If not, I want m
Mother and you to know that my heart is with you at all times.
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stevep
Fleet admiral
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Post by stevep on Dec 12, 2018 9:46:11 GMT
Battlecruiser Geloof, December 6, 1914Dearest Jakoba, It’s good that this miss Elsbeth is from a decent family, I believe that she will make much better company for you. I truly hope that you found the opportunity later on to go ice-skating with her. I hope that you found the opportunity to celebrate Sinterklaas. You shouldn’t worry overly much about the offensives in North America. Our men are now attacking a city named Philadelphia, where elements of their fleet remain trapped. There appears to be very little in terms of an organized army there, with most men armed only with rifles. There however is a major issue with francs-tireurs, but the army appears to be doing its utmost to deal with them and expects that soon enough, their activities will be fully repressed. In general, they appear to be utterly ignorant of the customs of war, and even use aeroplanes to throw explosives. They truly don’t understand that war is regulated for a reason. The Japanese war seems to be going well, and we have received the first reports about the battles there. Trouw seems to have suffered extensive damage to the upper works, and the battlecruiser has been withdrawn to Formosa. In return, at least one enemy battlecruiser appears to have been forced to withdraw, and at least four old battleships have been sunk along with multiple light units. Admiral Oude Luttinkhuis is full of praise for their professional conduct at sea. It is surprising, but it seems that the yellows are more capable than the North Americans. I know that it is part of your duties to speak to the Japanese, but I urge you to be careful. Easterners just can’t be trusted. It is important that they know what kind of demands we make of them, and I presume that they will give in to them, unless they want us to occupy the whole country. It seems that they have beaten the Russians, but based on what we know, the Russians just aren’t very capable militarily, they only have numbers going for them. Perhaps you are right that we will need more manpower, but I don’t know if it is for the best to rely on coloureds for that. Yes, they share some of our blood, but only through shame. They could easily get the idea that they deserve more, and as you say, that plays right into the hands of the Equalists. They will proof to be the end of this country if they win power. Parts of the sunk submarine have been retrieved, but nothing conclusive has been found yet. No bodies or papers have been retrieved, and it appears that the submarine suffered serious explosive damage on the inside. The weather remains troublesome, and we are hoping to soon find the opportunity for further investigations. Your loving father, Johan Rots Berlin, December 10, 1914Dear Father, So much has been happening lately. The last few days, I spoke to the Japanese again, they had communicated with their government and had been given instructions to negotiate a ceasefire to lead into a peaceful settlement. Naturally, this filled me with joy, and after sending some messages to The Hague, Uncle Sytze was given permission to speak to them. The ceasefire of course is only a preliminary document, and will be the foundation of a final settlement that is to be negotiated at Provintia. They agreed to immediately return to us our people as well as the coloureds and any prisoners the Japanese have taken, the local converts would be allowed to depart if they wish so. We have also been given full access to their waters. For now, we have allowed them to keep Nagasaki to avoid their government being toppled by public unrest. Only a little later did I hear the cause for this. In an engagement of Nagasaki, the remaining enemy battlecruiser has been sunk, and her attendant ships forced away. Naturally, they believe that terms will be relatively light, and it is something that I would agree with. The ceasefire is to go into effect on the 12th, at midnight Japanese time. After this complicated meeting, Uncle Sytze allowed me to share in a glass of jenever in celebration. I understand that men like it, but I have to confess, the taste is horrible and I would be happy to never have to take some again. I still have a bit of a headache from it. But that hasn’t been the only thing. It seems that the Austrians have finally forced a breakthrough against Serbia, and are now approaching Belgrade. The fighting however seems to have been very hard, which is surprising for such a small country. The Germans have entered Warsaw, and are expecting to soon hold all the important parts of Poland. It also seems that the Turk has now declared war on Russia. I have also been involved in discussions with our allies, and now also the Chilean minister who appeared rather subdued, which is only sensible due to his country’s loss. I assured him that it was in fact a victory for his nation, because they would from now on be free from the influence of the North Americans and would be under our protection. Naturally, they have been offered to join our American alliance, but are still considering it. More positively, it appears that Venezuela is now also open to joining us. I presume that it is because of the North American defeats. It appears that the North Americans did abuse their position as the only meaningful power in the Americas, treating independent nations as colonies. Naturally, I assured them that we would respect their sovereignty, but are hopeful that they will align their foreign policies with ours. Your loving daughter, Jakoba P.S. Just as I was about to send this letter, instructions have arrived from The Hague as you will be well-aware by the time you receive my letter. All my papers are being destroyed and tomorrow, Uncle Sytze and I will present the emperor with an ultimatum. This letter should still reach you safely. I fear having to say my goodbyes to the good and dear friends that I have made here, but am happy that I will be able to return to our beloved fatherland and to see Mother and you again. I would also be very much interested in meeting Commander van der Bilt in person, if you will permit me. Naturally, I will settle the payment of any and all staff we retain after delivering the ultimatum. I pray that the Germans will behave in a civilized manner as they did towards the French and Russians, and allow us to depart peacefully. If not, I want m Mother and you to know that my heart is with you at all times.
Rauchel
Well big reveal at the end. Obviously the sub was German but what exactly the Dutch are demanding? Since there is an ultimatum its obviously not a simple dow but sounds like war is expected and given Dutch anger over the issue and their assumption of dominance over opponents I can't see it being anything the Germans can or with that government would accept. Wonder if their representatives in Paris are talking to the French about a possible alliance or at least some military cooperation?
One thing with this is if the first incident was also a German attack - which will probably be assumed - the Dutch really need to appologise to and pay compensation to Britain. I wonder how Johan will react to that? 
Doubt the Japanese will be happy about the terms proposed by the Dutch so expect that conflict will continue.
Love the irony about Johan complaining about the Americans breaching Dutch rules of war while having no problems with them paying no attention to the rules in the world their now in. That the Dutch are now attacking Philadelphia does suggest they are occupying a wide area. Albeit very small given the total size of the US.
With S America, especially away from the Caribbean at the time in terms of foreign influence it was more Britain than the US as the dominant power. Largely based on the huge British economic investment in the region, although most of that has gone now. As such the Chileans were probably more angry with the British for signing the two warships, albeit they were some way from completion and Britain [OTL anyway] offered 'rental' payments for the ships and their return after the crisis [in that case involvement in WWI ] was over.
Things are going to get even more interesting for everybody now I suspect, unfortunately largely in the Chinese sense.
Steve
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raunchel
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Post by raunchel on Dec 12, 2018 10:35:56 GMT
Battlecruiser Geloof, December 6, 1914Dearest Jakoba, It’s good that this miss Elsbeth is from a decent family, I believe that she will make much better company for you. I truly hope that you found the opportunity later on to go ice-skating with her. I hope that you found the opportunity to celebrate Sinterklaas. You shouldn’t worry overly much about the offensives in North America. Our men are now attacking a city named Philadelphia, where elements of their fleet remain trapped. There appears to be very little in terms of an organized army there, with most men armed only with rifles. There however is a major issue with francs-tireurs, but the army appears to be doing its utmost to deal with them and expects that soon enough, their activities will be fully repressed. In general, they appear to be utterly ignorant of the customs of war, and even use aeroplanes to throw explosives. They truly don’t understand that war is regulated for a reason. The Japanese war seems to be going well, and we have received the first reports about the battles there. Trouw seems to have suffered extensive damage to the upper works, and the battlecruiser has been withdrawn to Formosa. In return, at least one enemy battlecruiser appears to have been forced to withdraw, and at least four old battleships have been sunk along with multiple light units. Admiral Oude Luttinkhuis is full of praise for their professional conduct at sea. It is surprising, but it seems that the yellows are more capable than the North Americans. I know that it is part of your duties to speak to the Japanese, but I urge you to be careful. Easterners just can’t be trusted. It is important that they know what kind of demands we make of them, and I presume that they will give in to them, unless they want us to occupy the whole country. It seems that they have beaten the Russians, but based on what we know, the Russians just aren’t very capable militarily, they only have numbers going for them. Perhaps you are right that we will need more manpower, but I don’t know if it is for the best to rely on coloureds for that. Yes, they share some of our blood, but only through shame. They could easily get the idea that they deserve more, and as you say, that plays right into the hands of the Equalists. They will proof to be the end of this country if they win power. Parts of the sunk submarine have been retrieved, but nothing conclusive has been found yet. No bodies or papers have been retrieved, and it appears that the submarine suffered serious explosive damage on the inside. The weather remains troublesome, and we are hoping to soon find the opportunity for further investigations. Your loving father, Johan Rots Berlin, December 10, 1914Dear Father, So much has been happening lately. The last few days, I spoke to the Japanese again, they had communicated with their government and had been given instructions to negotiate a ceasefire to lead into a peaceful settlement. Naturally, this filled me with joy, and after sending some messages to The Hague, Uncle Sytze was given permission to speak to them. The ceasefire of course is only a preliminary document, and will be the foundation of a final settlement that is to be negotiated at Provintia. They agreed to immediately return to us our people as well as the coloureds and any prisoners the Japanese have taken, the local converts would be allowed to depart if they wish so. We have also been given full access to their waters. For now, we have allowed them to keep Nagasaki to avoid their government being toppled by public unrest. Only a little later did I hear the cause for this. In an engagement of Nagasaki, the remaining enemy battlecruiser has been sunk, and her attendant ships forced away. Naturally, they believe that terms will be relatively light, and it is something that I would agree with. The ceasefire is to go into effect on the 12th, at midnight Japanese time. After this complicated meeting, Uncle Sytze allowed me to share in a glass of jenever in celebration. I understand that men like it, but I have to confess, the taste is horrible and I would be happy to never have to take some again. I still have a bit of a headache from it. But that hasn’t been the only thing. It seems that the Austrians have finally forced a breakthrough against Serbia, and are now approaching Belgrade. The fighting however seems to have been very hard, which is surprising for such a small country. The Germans have entered Warsaw, and are expecting to soon hold all the important parts of Poland. It also seems that the Turk has now declared war on Russia. I have also been involved in discussions with our allies, and now also the Chilean minister who appeared rather subdued, which is only sensible due to his country’s loss. I assured him that it was in fact a victory for his nation, because they would from now on be free from the influence of the North Americans and would be under our protection. Naturally, they have been offered to join our American alliance, but are still considering it. More positively, it appears that Venezuela is now also open to joining us. I presume that it is because of the North American defeats. It appears that the North Americans did abuse their position as the only meaningful power in the Americas, treating independent nations as colonies. Naturally, I assured them that we would respect their sovereignty, but are hopeful that they will align their foreign policies with ours. Your loving daughter, Jakoba P.S. Just as I was about to send this letter, instructions have arrived from The Hague as you will be well-aware by the time you receive my letter. All my papers are being destroyed and tomorrow, Uncle Sytze and I will present the emperor with an ultimatum. This letter should still reach you safely. I fear having to say my goodbyes to the good and dear friends that I have made here, but am happy that I will be able to return to our beloved fatherland and to see Mother and you again. I would also be very much interested in meeting Commander van der Bilt in person, if you will permit me. Naturally, I will settle the payment of any and all staff we retain after delivering the ultimatum. I pray that the Germans will behave in a civilized manner as they did towards the French and Russians, and allow us to depart peacefully. If not, I want m Mother and you to know that my heart is with you at all times.
Rauchel
Well big reveal at the end. Obviously the sub was German but what exactly the Dutch are demanding? Since there is an ultimatum its obviously not a simple dow but sounds like war is expected and given Dutch anger over the issue and their assumption of dominance over opponents I can't see it being anything the Germans can or with that government would accept. Wonder if their representatives in Paris are talking to the French about a possible alliance or at least some military cooperation?
One thing with this is if the first incident was also a German attack - which will probably be assumed - the Dutch really need to appologise to and pay compensation to Britain. I wonder how Johan will react to that?
Doubt the Japanese will be happy about the terms proposed by the Dutch so expect that conflict will continue.
Love the irony about Johan complaining about the Americans breaching Dutch rules of war while having no problems with them paying no attention to the rules in the world their now in. That the Dutch are now attacking Philadelphia does suggest they are occupying a wide area. Albeit very small given the total size of the US.
With S America, especially away from the Caribbean at the time in terms of foreign influence it was more Britain than the US as the dominant power. Largely based on the huge British economic investment in the region, although most of that has gone now. As such the Chileans were probably more angry with the British for signing the two warships, albeit they were some way from completion and Britain [OTL anyway] offered 'rental' payments for the ships and their return after the crisis [in that case involvement in WWI ] was over.
Things are going to get even more interesting for everybody now I suspect, unfortunately largely in the Chinese sense.
Steve
The sub was indeed found to be German. The Dutch have some very simple demands: a formal apology and admission of guilt, reparations, allowing Dutch agents full access to all German papers to allow them to identify guilty parties who are to be extradited, the removal from the army and navy of senior figures, and the handing over or scuttling of their whole submarine force. Naturally, it amounts to a declaration of war, but they are trying to look like they're the good people here. Apologising to the English will indeed have to be done, which will be painful for many. But then again, there is a big distraction from it now because of the Germans who are clearly trying to create a war between the UK and Republic. The Japanese weren't happy, but basically, they didn't have much of a choice left. This was a painful ceasefire, but after they lost their (useful) capital ships, they knew they had to come to terms. The Dutch however have gained some measure of respect for them given their skill, which will have its effects in the future. Of course, the whole geopolitical situation changed completely the moment the papers were signed. Johan indeed is a massive hypocrite. But then again, he doesn't really know this world's standards. And besides, sinking and taking merchant ships is nothing compared to unleashing the horror of throwing bombs from planes, or perhaps even worse, airships! The Dutch are basically trying to take sufficient ground to be able to put pressure on the Americans to make them sue for peace. They are aware that they are building up an army, and they really want this distraction over with. Especially with the German issues. Somehow, I thought that it was mostly the US acting in South America, but you're right, it's also the British. Of course, the Brits could still basically tell them what to do, they couldn't do anything about their ships being seized. But at the same time, they would really have loved to not have wasted that money now. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Dec 12, 2018 16:00:06 GMT
Rauchel
Well big reveal at the end. Obviously the sub was German but what exactly the Dutch are demanding? Since there is an ultimatum its obviously not a simple dow but sounds like war is expected and given Dutch anger over the issue and their assumption of dominance over opponents I can't see it being anything the Germans can or with that government would accept. Wonder if their representatives in Paris are talking to the French about a possible alliance or at least some military cooperation?
One thing with this is if the first incident was also a German attack - which will probably be assumed - the Dutch really need to appologise to and pay compensation to Britain. I wonder how Johan will react to that?
Doubt the Japanese will be happy about the terms proposed by the Dutch so expect that conflict will continue.
Love the irony about Johan complaining about the Americans breaching Dutch rules of war while having no problems with them paying no attention to the rules in the world their now in. That the Dutch are now attacking Philadelphia does suggest they are occupying a wide area. Albeit very small given the total size of the US.
With S America, especially away from the Caribbean at the time in terms of foreign influence it was more Britain than the US as the dominant power. Largely based on the huge British economic investment in the region, although most of that has gone now. As such the Chileans were probably more angry with the British for signing the two warships, albeit they were some way from completion and Britain [OTL anyway] offered 'rental' payments for the ships and their return after the crisis [in that case involvement in WWI ] was over.
Things are going to get even more interesting for everybody now I suspect, unfortunately largely in the Chinese sense.
Steve
The sub was indeed found to be German. The Dutch have some very simple demands: a formal apology and admission of guilt, reparations, allowing Dutch agents full access to all German papers to allow them to identify guilty parties who are to be extradited, the removal from the army and navy of senior figures, and the handing over or scuttling of their whole submarine force. Naturally, it amounts to a declaration of war, but they are trying to look like they're the good people here. Apologising to the English will indeed have to be done, which will be painful for many. But then again, there is a big distraction from it now because of the Germans who are clearly trying to create a war between the UK and Republic. The Japanese weren't happy, but basically, they didn't have much of a choice left. This was a painful ceasefire, but after they lost their (useful) capital ships, they knew they had to come to terms. The Dutch however have gained some measure of respect for them given their skill, which will have its effects in the future. Of course, the whole geopolitical situation changed completely the moment the papers were signed. Johan indeed is a massive hypocrite. But then again, he doesn't really know this world's standards. And besides, sinking and taking merchant ships is nothing compared to unleashing the horror of throwing bombs from planes, or perhaps even worse, airships! The Dutch are basically trying to take sufficient ground to be able to put pressure on the Americans to make them sue for peace. They are aware that they are building up an army, and they really want this distraction over with. Especially with the German issues. Somehow, I thought that it was mostly the US acting in South America, but you're right, it's also the British. Of course, the Brits could still basically tell them what to do, they couldn't do anything about their ships being seized. But at the same time, they would really have loved to not have wasted that money now.
Well the awkward bit with the Chilean ships is that given what seems to be general Dutch terms with defeated opponents, especially non-European ones, include disarming them I doubt Chile would be allowed to have the ships anyway while the still unstable situation in Europe means that the RN might want the ships still. Given that I would expect their either going to be joining the EP or at least a friendly neutrality towards it I doubt they would be willing to hand over the Turkish ones either since that power has declared war on the EPs. Of course with Chile there is still the question of the Netherlands seeking to monopolise their nitrate supply.
Given that the proposed terms to Germany are a bit better than those offered to Serbia by Austria with German support I fully expect the Germany to reject them. Of course the down side of issuing terms like this, while it helps your diplomatic position does basically give Germany the initiative in a possible attack, although I fully expect the Dutch to have their forces on full alert. Its likely to be messy however, depending on how much Germany has moved away from the 'Belgium' border. Which could be a good sign of how high the knowledge of the attack is in Berlin. If they have forces ready to attack in large numbers that might hint they were aware the sub was German and that war is likely. If they have moved the vast majority of forces to the French and Russian front that could suggest that possibly only a small group, probably in the navy was involved.
Its going to be messy with both Japan and America as neither are likely to agree with the sort of terms the Dutch are likely to suggest, especially once they know that there is a Dutch-German conflict. Possibly Britain and/or France might offer to act as mediators between the parties, although that could be unpopular with the Dutch, as they will almost certainly seek to seriously water down Dutch demands because they know that by OTL standards their very harsh. Plus with the US especially there is likely to be rearmament, especially army and air force that because of the size of the country it would be difficult to stop. Furthermore after such an attack neither power is likely to be willing to have defensive fortifications removed. Going to have to see how this develops but plenty of options.
Given that a war with Germany seems almost certain then the Dutch are likely to mop up the colonies in the Pacific, which Japan got OTL and depending on the circumstances most/all of what ANZ took over OTL.
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raunchel
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Post by raunchel on Dec 12, 2018 16:41:10 GMT
The sub was indeed found to be German. The Dutch have some very simple demands: a formal apology and admission of guilt, reparations, allowing Dutch agents full access to all German papers to allow them to identify guilty parties who are to be extradited, the removal from the army and navy of senior figures, and the handing over or scuttling of their whole submarine force. Naturally, it amounts to a declaration of war, but they are trying to look like they're the good people here. Apologising to the English will indeed have to be done, which will be painful for many. But then again, there is a big distraction from it now because of the Germans who are clearly trying to create a war between the UK and Republic. The Japanese weren't happy, but basically, they didn't have much of a choice left. This was a painful ceasefire, but after they lost their (useful) capital ships, they knew they had to come to terms. The Dutch however have gained some measure of respect for them given their skill, which will have its effects in the future. Of course, the whole geopolitical situation changed completely the moment the papers were signed. Johan indeed is a massive hypocrite. But then again, he doesn't really know this world's standards. And besides, sinking and taking merchant ships is nothing compared to unleashing the horror of throwing bombs from planes, or perhaps even worse, airships! The Dutch are basically trying to take sufficient ground to be able to put pressure on the Americans to make them sue for peace. They are aware that they are building up an army, and they really want this distraction over with. Especially with the German issues. Somehow, I thought that it was mostly the US acting in South America, but you're right, it's also the British. Of course, the Brits could still basically tell them what to do, they couldn't do anything about their ships being seized. But at the same time, they would really have loved to not have wasted that money now.
Well the awkward bit with the Chilean ships is that given what seems to be general Dutch terms with defeated opponents, especially non-European ones, include disarming them I doubt Chile would be allowed to have the ships anyway while the still unstable situation in Europe means that the RN might want the ships still. Given that I would expect their either going to be joining the EP or at least a friendly neutrality towards it I doubt they would be willing to hand over the Turkish ones either since that power has declared war on the EPs. Of course with Chile there is still the question of the Netherlands seeking to monopolise their nitrate supply.
Given that the proposed terms to Germany are a bit better than those offered to Serbia by Austria with German support I fully expect the Germany to reject them. Of course the down side of issuing terms like this, while it helps your diplomatic position does basically give Germany the initiative in a possible attack, although I fully expect the Dutch to have their forces on full alert. Its likely to be messy however, depending on how much Germany has moved away from the 'Belgium' border. Which could be a good sign of how high the knowledge of the attack is in Berlin. If they have forces ready to attack in large numbers that might hint they were aware the sub was German and that war is likely. If they have moved the vast majority of forces to the French and Russian front that could suggest that possibly only a small group, probably in the navy was involved.
Its going to be messy with both Japan and America as neither are likely to agree with the sort of terms the Dutch are likely to suggest, especially once they know that there is a Dutch-German conflict. Possibly Britain and/or France might offer to act as mediators between the parties, although that could be unpopular with the Dutch, as they will almost certainly seek to seriously water down Dutch demands because they know that by OTL standards their very harsh. Plus with the US especially there is likely to be rearmament, especially army and air force that because of the size of the country it would be difficult to stop. Furthermore after such an attack neither power is likely to be willing to have defensive fortifications removed. Going to have to see how this develops but plenty of options.
Given that a war with Germany seems almost certain then the Dutch are likely to mop up the colonies in the Pacific, which Japan got OTL and depending on the circumstances most/all of what ANZ took over OTL.
In this timeline, the Brits took those ships under their very kind guardianship because of the developing international situation. Of course, they also would prefer not to supply such weapons to powers that are at war. They don't want to fan the flames of conflict at all So, basically, a bunch of excuses, because the admirals (and public) want more battleships, and they want them now. For the first time in quite a while, the British feel threatened on their island because they are now facing a true naval power as a potential enemy. The nitrates indeed are an issue, but for now, the Dutch have the facts on the ground on their side. The ultimatum indeed was a pretty blunt one, and practically, a declaration of intent of war. The Dutch however have their reasons because they basically found evidence that the Germans have been trying to lure them into a war with other powers. How any potential war will develop will be revealed in due time of course. If such a war breaks out, they will of course be taking care of some German colonies as well. Of course, the world will continue being a real mess. The Japanese have been given a new lease on their life because the Dutch now have serious other issues to deal with, making any kind of serious attack on the home islands impossible. East Asia however will be a huge mess because of the continued presence of both sides, and now the Russians and Dutch could be on the same side in at least one war too... The American situation also is a mess. The Dutch are expecting the Americans to sue for peace, and in the process of putting pressure on them, are biting off more and more. The Americans at the same time just don't have the manpower and weapons to field more than light infantry, which just isn't fun against someone armed with machine guns and artillery of all kinds. I'm still trying to find out how long it took to raise full new battalions and larger formations at this time. Based on what I know, the best equivalent is Kitchener's Army, which started recruiting in august 1914 and the first units were ready for the field a year later. I'm thinking that the Americans can reduce this somewhat by accepting some serious reductions in quality. But everything will basically be in short supply, from uniforms and boots to actual weapons to issue the men. Of course, there is the firearm culture, but that will only make things more complicated (and most civilian weapons are useless in the field anyways), and the Brits had much greater military supplies and cadres. Furthermore, the Americans can't afford to train their men in 'peace', the political pressure to act is enormous, especially because the Dutch keep advancing with very little (visibly) being done to stop them. Of course, once they have their affairs in order, they can probably steamroll the Dutch right back to their ships, but that remains in the future, and it's not what the people can see. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Dec 12, 2018 22:09:02 GMT
Well the awkward bit with the Chilean ships is that given what seems to be general Dutch terms with defeated opponents, especially non-European ones, include disarming them I doubt Chile would be allowed to have the ships anyway while the still unstable situation in Europe means that the RN might want the ships still. Given that I would expect their either going to be joining the EP or at least a friendly neutrality towards it I doubt they would be willing to hand over the Turkish ones either since that power has declared war on the EPs. Of course with Chile there is still the question of the Netherlands seeking to monopolise their nitrate supply.
Given that the proposed terms to Germany are a bit better than those offered to Serbia by Austria with German support I fully expect the Germany to reject them. Of course the down side of issuing terms like this, while it helps your diplomatic position does basically give Germany the initiative in a possible attack, although I fully expect the Dutch to have their forces on full alert. Its likely to be messy however, depending on how much Germany has moved away from the 'Belgium' border. Which could be a good sign of how high the knowledge of the attack is in Berlin. If they have forces ready to attack in large numbers that might hint they were aware the sub was German and that war is likely. If they have moved the vast majority of forces to the French and Russian front that could suggest that possibly only a small group, probably in the navy was involved.
Its going to be messy with both Japan and America as neither are likely to agree with the sort of terms the Dutch are likely to suggest, especially once they know that there is a Dutch-German conflict. Possibly Britain and/or France might offer to act as mediators between the parties, although that could be unpopular with the Dutch, as they will almost certainly seek to seriously water down Dutch demands because they know that by OTL standards their very harsh. Plus with the US especially there is likely to be rearmament, especially army and air force that because of the size of the country it would be difficult to stop. Furthermore after such an attack neither power is likely to be willing to have defensive fortifications removed. Going to have to see how this develops but plenty of options.
Given that a war with Germany seems almost certain then the Dutch are likely to mop up the colonies in the Pacific, which Japan got OTL and depending on the circumstances most/all of what ANZ took over OTL.
In this timeline, the Brits took those ships under their very kind guardianship because of the developing international situation. Of course, they also would prefer not to supply such weapons to powers that are at war. They don't want to fan the flames of conflict at all So, basically, a bunch of excuses, because the admirals (and public) want more battleships, and they want them now. For the first time in quite a while, the British feel threatened on their island because they are now facing a true naval power as a potential enemy. The nitrates indeed are an issue, but for now, the Dutch have the facts on the ground on their side. The ultimatum indeed was a pretty blunt one, and practically, a declaration of intent of war. The Dutch however have their reasons because they basically found evidence that the Germans have been trying to lure them into a war with other powers. How any potential war will develop will be revealed in due time of course. If such a war breaks out, they will of course be taking care of some German colonies as well. Of course, the world will continue being a real mess. The Japanese have been given a new lease on their life because the Dutch now have serious other issues to deal with, making any kind of serious attack on the home islands impossible. East Asia however will be a huge mess because of the continued presence of both sides, and now the Russians and Dutch could be on the same side in at least one war too... The American situation also is a mess. The Dutch are expecting the Americans to sue for peace, and in the process of putting pressure on them, are biting off more and more. The Americans at the same time just don't have the manpower and weapons to field more than light infantry, which just isn't fun against someone armed with machine guns and artillery of all kinds. I'm still trying to find out how long it took to raise full new battalions and larger formations at this time. Based on what I know, the best equivalent is Kitchener's Army, which started recruiting in august 1914 and the first units were ready for the field a year later. I'm thinking that the Americans can reduce this somewhat by accepting some serious reductions in quality. But everything will basically be in short supply, from uniforms and boots to actual weapons to issue the men. Of course, there is the firearm culture, but that will only make things more complicated (and most civilian weapons are useless in the field anyways), and the Brits had much greater military supplies and cadres. Furthermore, the Americans can't afford to train their men in 'peace', the political pressure to act is enormous, especially because the Dutch keep advancing with very little (visibly) being done to stop them. Of course, once they have their affairs in order, they can probably steamroll the Dutch right back to their ships, but that remains in the future, and it's not what the people can see.
There was actually a link to a presentation somewhere on the web, I think it might have been on another site but can't find the thread I was thinking of, about the problems the US had in 1917-18. Basically in expanding from a pretty small army and reserve to try and raise a force 4M strong they faced huge problems in terms of the quality of the troops training simply because there were so few professional soldiers to train them let alone lead them into combat. Its was a presentation by someone who had investigated the problem to a number of US military figures and was ~70-90 minutes long and looked very detailed.
As such while fighting as light infantry and in close quarters could well be successful, although with some heavy losses the Americans are very unlikely to be able to come anywhere near matching Dutch professional forces in formal battles. At least unless guerilla activity and heavy loses mean their really worn down. Even if the US can find someone to supply them with heavy equipment, which could be awkward with the war in Europe on and Dutch opposition to such a trade, possibly backed by their new allies, getting men trained in using it and co-ordinating with infantry forces will be difficult.
I can't see the US being conquered in any meaningful way, especially with the almost certain war with Germany heavily distracting the Dutch but it could easily be very costly for the Americans, something like WWII casualties, possibly more. Of course that leaves the Dutch with the problem of a very angry US probably looking to tool up for round two.
In the Far East the Dutch forces there also have to content with the fact the US controls most of the Philippines as well, although I think their garrison was pretty small by this time. Not sure of the loyalties of the local population as the initial American occupation had been fairly brutal but things had settled down somewhat and it might depend on what sort of offer the Dutch were willing to make to any anti-American groups. Or they simply use their forces to defeat the US garrison and then decide how to handle the locals.
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raunchel
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Post by raunchel on Dec 13, 2018 9:59:57 GMT
In this timeline, the Brits took those ships under their very kind guardianship because of the developing international situation. Of course, they also would prefer not to supply such weapons to powers that are at war. They don't want to fan the flames of conflict at all So, basically, a bunch of excuses, because the admirals (and public) want more battleships, and they want them now. For the first time in quite a while, the British feel threatened on their island because they are now facing a true naval power as a potential enemy. The nitrates indeed are an issue, but for now, the Dutch have the facts on the ground on their side. The ultimatum indeed was a pretty blunt one, and practically, a declaration of intent of war. The Dutch however have their reasons because they basically found evidence that the Germans have been trying to lure them into a war with other powers. How any potential war will develop will be revealed in due time of course. If such a war breaks out, they will of course be taking care of some German colonies as well. Of course, the world will continue being a real mess. The Japanese have been given a new lease on their life because the Dutch now have serious other issues to deal with, making any kind of serious attack on the home islands impossible. East Asia however will be a huge mess because of the continued presence of both sides, and now the Russians and Dutch could be on the same side in at least one war too... The American situation also is a mess. The Dutch are expecting the Americans to sue for peace, and in the process of putting pressure on them, are biting off more and more. The Americans at the same time just don't have the manpower and weapons to field more than light infantry, which just isn't fun against someone armed with machine guns and artillery of all kinds. I'm still trying to find out how long it took to raise full new battalions and larger formations at this time. Based on what I know, the best equivalent is Kitchener's Army, which started recruiting in august 1914 and the first units were ready for the field a year later. I'm thinking that the Americans can reduce this somewhat by accepting some serious reductions in quality. But everything will basically be in short supply, from uniforms and boots to actual weapons to issue the men. Of course, there is the firearm culture, but that will only make things more complicated (and most civilian weapons are useless in the field anyways), and the Brits had much greater military supplies and cadres. Furthermore, the Americans can't afford to train their men in 'peace', the political pressure to act is enormous, especially because the Dutch keep advancing with very little (visibly) being done to stop them. Of course, once they have their affairs in order, they can probably steamroll the Dutch right back to their ships, but that remains in the future, and it's not what the people can see.
There was actually a link to a presentation somewhere on the web, I think it might have been on another site but can't find the thread I was thinking of, about the problems the US had in 1917-18. Basically in expanding from a pretty small army and reserve to try and raise a force 4M strong they faced huge problems in terms of the quality of the troops training simply because there were so few professional soldiers to train them let alone lead them into combat. Its was a presentation by someone who had investigated the problem to a number of US military figures and was ~70-90 minutes long and looked very detailed.
As such while fighting as light infantry and in close quarters could well be successful, although with some heavy losses the Americans are very unlikely to be able to come anywhere near matching Dutch professional forces in formal battles. At least unless guerilla activity and heavy loses mean their really worn down. Even if the US can find someone to supply them with heavy equipment, which could be awkward with the war in Europe on and Dutch opposition to such a trade, possibly backed by their new allies, getting men trained in using it and co-ordinating with infantry forces will be difficult.
I can't see the US being conquered in any meaningful way, especially with the almost certain war with Germany heavily distracting the Dutch but it could easily be very costly for the Americans, something like WWII casualties, possibly more. Of course that leaves the Dutch with the problem of a very angry US probably looking to tool up for round two.
In the Far East the Dutch forces there also have to content with the fact the US controls most of the Philippines as well, although I think their garrison was pretty small by this time. Not sure of the loyalties of the local population as the initial American occupation had been fairly brutal but things had settled down somewhat and it might depend on what sort of offer the Dutch were willing to make to any anti-American groups. Or they simply use their forces to defeat the US garrison and then decide how to handle the locals.
That would certainly be a very interesting presentation to see. There will be lots of issues for the Americans, especially at first. Right now, they're basically using small militia formations and the like to basically try to slow the Dutch down while building up a proper army based around what's left of the professionals (although some are also being deployed in combat, only to get brushed aside by superior forces. Based on what I could find, the US had at most some 800 pieces of field artillery in total (although I couldn't find details, so many of those guns would have been built later on in the buildup to WW1). There is a reason why they used French artillery and other weapons when they actually went to war. The French market for guns is right out. Not only will they basically be forced to the Dutch side, they also can't really justify sending guns across the ocean to their own population. The Germans will probably mostly need their own, and if they fight the Dutch, they will get blockaded quite heavily. That only leaves the Brits, and their artillery production never matched the French, and besides, they have a bit of a need for themselves as well. There is no way for the US to be conquered, especially while the war in Europe is going on. If the Europeans had somehow ganged up on them, sure. But otherwise, it's just not possible. The country is just too large to have any hope of fully occupying it. And the more the Dutch take, the more the occupation will take (they don't believe in genocide of whites after all). The Phillipines had some twenty-five thousand men as the garrison, and formed the major overseas deployment of American forces. A part of them has now been lost with the southern islands (especially because many forces were involved in fighting the Moro), and the Dutch have major forces nearby to basically mop up what's left. There still is a lot of resentment of the Americans, but that won't mean that the remnants of the area will just roll over for the Dutch. The Americans however would be crushed with relative ease. Independence isn't really a possible offer for the Dutch to make, they don't want independent local states right next to their East Indies, but they can make offers for local self-rule under Dutch tutelage and the like. |
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raunchel
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Post by raunchel on Dec 13, 2018 10:00:46 GMT
MURDER IN BERLIN
By Dirk Meurs
Staatelijk Dagblad staff writer
ROTTERDAM - With the news of the war breaking out in Germany, one offense and tragedy taking place in that country has been overshadowed. It has been reported that our ambassador to Germany, Mr. Sytze Snoeck-Boergonje, died on the day that the ultimatum was delivered. Sources in the foreign ministry say that they are unsure of when this happened exactly. It however is known that there was a mob gathered at our embassy.
No word has been received from the rest of the embassy staff, and it is believed that they have become the victim of barbaric violence. There also has been no news concerning miss Jakoba Rots, the daughter of vice admiral Rots, who had bravely represented our nation’s interests abroad and negotiated for the return of Dutch citizens from Japanese captivity.
It is feared that she too has been murdered, a further proof of the duplicity and moral degeneracy of the Germans who even now are attacking our borders. It is imperative that our government does its utmost to protect our citizens and diplomats, and especially our women, wherever they are.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Dec 13, 2018 10:44:26 GMT
There was actually a link to a presentation somewhere on the web, I think it might have been on another site but can't find the thread I was thinking of, about the problems the US had in 1917-18. Basically in expanding from a pretty small army and reserve to try and raise a force 4M strong they faced huge problems in terms of the quality of the troops training simply because there were so few professional soldiers to train them let alone lead them into combat. Its was a presentation by someone who had investigated the problem to a number of US military figures and was ~70-90 minutes long and looked very detailed.
As such while fighting as light infantry and in close quarters could well be successful, although with some heavy losses the Americans are very unlikely to be able to come anywhere near matching Dutch professional forces in formal battles. At least unless guerilla activity and heavy loses mean their really worn down. Even if the US can find someone to supply them with heavy equipment, which could be awkward with the war in Europe on and Dutch opposition to such a trade, possibly backed by their new allies, getting men trained in using it and co-ordinating with infantry forces will be difficult.
I can't see the US being conquered in any meaningful way, especially with the almost certain war with Germany heavily distracting the Dutch but it could easily be very costly for the Americans, something like WWII casualties, possibly more. Of course that leaves the Dutch with the problem of a very angry US probably looking to tool up for round two.
In the Far East the Dutch forces there also have to content with the fact the US controls most of the Philippines as well, although I think their garrison was pretty small by this time. Not sure of the loyalties of the local population as the initial American occupation had been fairly brutal but things had settled down somewhat and it might depend on what sort of offer the Dutch were willing to make to any anti-American groups. Or they simply use their forces to defeat the US garrison and then decide how to handle the locals.
That would certainly be a very interesting presentation to see. There will be lots of issues for the Americans, especially at first. Right now, they're basically using small militia formations and the like to basically try to slow the Dutch down while building up a proper army based around what's left of the professionals (although some are also being deployed in combat, only to get brushed aside by superior forces. Based on what I could find, the US had at most some 800 pieces of field artillery in total (although I couldn't find details, so many of those guns would have been built later on in the buildup to WW1). There is a reason why they used French artillery and other weapons when they actually went to war. The French market for guns is right out. Not only will they basically be forced to the Dutch side, they also can't really justify sending guns across the ocean to their own population. The Germans will probably mostly need their own, and if they fight the Dutch, they will get blockaded quite heavily. That only leaves the Brits, and their artillery production never matched the French, and besides, they have a bit of a need for themselves as well. There is no way for the US to be conquered, especially while the war in Europe is going on. If the Europeans had somehow ganged up on them, sure. But otherwise, it's just not possible. The country is just too large to have any hope of fully occupying it. And the more the Dutch take, the more the occupation will take (they don't believe in genocide of whites after all). The Phillipines had some twenty-five thousand men as the garrison, and formed the major overseas deployment of American forces. A part of them has now been lost with the southern islands (especially because many forces were involved in fighting the Moro), and the Dutch have major forces nearby to basically mop up what's left. There still is a lot of resentment of the Americans, but that won't mean that the remnants of the area will just roll over for the Dutch. The Americans however would be crushed with relative ease. Independence isn't really a possible offer for the Dutch to make, they don't want independent local states right next to their East Indies, but they can make offers for local self-rule under Dutch tutelage and the like.
Raunchel
IIRC it was referenced on a discussion on a naval history site about a US - UK war in the 1920's which unfortunately got locked after one poster got too disruptive. Did look back through the pages but couldn't find the thread. Possibly because it was locked it was deleted or is hidden from view. However will ask on the site if anyone can given me the link.
Don't think the Americans in the Philippines will cause the Dutch local forces many problems but they will be another distraction and if the Dutch come down too heavily on the Filipinos that could be another issue. By that time a fair number of the locals were co-operating with the US so its a possibility but could go either way.
Sounds like things are bad in Berlin although hopefully not as bad as that. While tensions got high during the war and there were abused in occupied territories and at sea it does seem a bit odd that the German government allowed rioting against an embassy in their own capital. Although given your research did something like that happen OTL?
I hope and suspect that Jakoba is OK and wonder if she was outside the embassy at the time visiting one of her friends and possibly unsure what had happened. Given her uncle's poor health it might be that there was an hostile crowd outside and he had some sort of heart attack or stoke triggered by that. Sounds a bit more likely than the suggestion of the embassy being stormed. Anyway will find out in due course. Johan of course will, understandably in those circumstances, not be happy.
If the Germans are attacking in strength it could be difficult for the Dutch and does suggest some intent by the German authorities. Alternative if they have moved most of their forces away to fight elsewhere and its just forces left on the border the Dutch, especially with reserves still called up I suspect, should be able to hold. A lot of course depends on how the Dutch compare with our world organised armies. The only fighting of note so far has been with the Japan as the Chileans would have lost a lot of their troops and the US was caught unprepared and largely unarmed.
Steve
Steve
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Dec 13, 2018 17:06:44 GMT
Raunchel
No reply yet on the other site but did some searching on Ytube and found "Giants with feet of Clay: The US Army enters WWII" by Richard S Faulkner. Its one of a series under the category of "Pershing Lecture Series" on WWI and you might find others of interest for some of the information on the state of the armies and the problems they faced. Pretty certain this was the guy I remember and although the presentation doesn't seem exactly as I remember it I think he's done it or something similar more than once or possibly just my memory playing up. However covers most of the ground I recall and hopefully is helpful. About 60 minutes long but the 1st ~5 minutes is waffle by two people introducing him and there is a Q&A section from about the hour mark. Hope it helps.
Steve
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raunchel
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Post by raunchel on Dec 14, 2018 11:23:15 GMT
That would certainly be a very interesting presentation to see. There will be lots of issues for the Americans, especially at first. Right now, they're basically using small militia formations and the like to basically try to slow the Dutch down while building up a proper army based around what's left of the professionals (although some are also being deployed in combat, only to get brushed aside by superior forces. Based on what I could find, the US had at most some 800 pieces of field artillery in total (although I couldn't find details, so many of those guns would have been built later on in the buildup to WW1). There is a reason why they used French artillery and other weapons when they actually went to war. The French market for guns is right out. Not only will they basically be forced to the Dutch side, they also can't really justify sending guns across the ocean to their own population. The Germans will probably mostly need their own, and if they fight the Dutch, they will get blockaded quite heavily. That only leaves the Brits, and their artillery production never matched the French, and besides, they have a bit of a need for themselves as well. There is no way for the US to be conquered, especially while the war in Europe is going on. If the Europeans had somehow ganged up on them, sure. But otherwise, it's just not possible. The country is just too large to have any hope of fully occupying it. And the more the Dutch take, the more the occupation will take (they don't believe in genocide of whites after all). The Phillipines had some twenty-five thousand men as the garrison, and formed the major overseas deployment of American forces. A part of them has now been lost with the southern islands (especially because many forces were involved in fighting the Moro), and the Dutch have major forces nearby to basically mop up what's left. There still is a lot of resentment of the Americans, but that won't mean that the remnants of the area will just roll over for the Dutch. The Americans however would be crushed with relative ease. Independence isn't really a possible offer for the Dutch to make, they don't want independent local states right next to their East Indies, but they can make offers for local self-rule under Dutch tutelage and the like.
Raunchel
IIRC it was referenced on a discussion on a naval history site about a US - UK war in the 1920's which unfortunately got locked after one poster got too disruptive. Did look back through the pages but couldn't find the thread. Possibly because it was locked it was deleted or is hidden from view. However will ask on the site if anyone can given me the link.
Don't think the Americans in the Philippines will cause the Dutch local forces many problems but they will be another distraction and if the Dutch come down too heavily on the Filipinos that could be another issue. By that time a fair number of the locals were co-operating with the US so its a possibility but could go either way.
Sounds like things are bad in Berlin although hopefully not as bad as that. While tensions got high during the war and there were abused in occupied territories and at sea it does seem a bit odd that the German government allowed rioting against an embassy in their own capital. Although given your research did something like that happen OTL?
I hope and suspect that Jakoba is OK and wonder if she was outside the embassy at the time visiting one of her friends and possibly unsure what had happened. Given her uncle's poor health it might be that there was an hostile crowd outside and he had some sort of heart attack or stoke triggered by that. Sounds a bit more likely than the suggestion of the embassy being stormed. Anyway will find out in due course. Johan of course will, understandably in those circumstances, not be happy.
If the Germans are attacking in strength it could be difficult for the Dutch and does suggest some intent by the German authorities. Alternative if they have moved most of their forces away to fight elsewhere and its just forces left on the border the Dutch, especially with reserves still called up I suspect, should be able to hold. A lot of course depends on how the Dutch compare with our world organised armies. The only fighting of note so far has been with the Japan as the Chileans would have lost a lot of their troops and the US was caught unprepared and largely unarmed.
Steve
Steve
The Americans there indeed wouldn't be much of a problem. At first, the Dutch will be too busy to really be too awful in their new part of the East Indies, but over time, that can change of course. Of course, by the time that happens, the war will have been going on for a bit longer which can change everything. Concerning the situation in Berlin, everything will be revealed in the next update. If the Germans attack with their full strength, they'll smash right through the Dutch because, well, that was the thing their army was good at. Especially because they would already have their siege artillery ready to pulverise Dutch fortresses with everyone in them (including Jakoba's eldest brother of course, he's in Luik, right where the Germans would originally have focused their efforts). Germany will indeed be the first 'real' enemy where both sides employ first rate land forces. The Japanese war is more of a naval affair, the Chilean (and other Latin American) wars are against third-rate militaries, and as you say, the US just didn't have the kind of military power to really fight back yet. Of course, more will be revealed soon. Raunchel
No reply yet on the other site but did some searching on Ytube and found "Giants with feet of Clay: The US Army enters WWII" by Richard S Faulkner. Its one of a series under the category of "Pershing Lecture Series" on WWI and you might find others of interest for some of the information on the state of the armies and the problems they faced. Pretty certain this was the guy I remember and although the presentation doesn't seem exactly as I remember it I think he's done it or something similar more than once or possibly just my memory playing up. However covers most of the ground I recall and hopefully is helpful. About 60 minutes long but the 1st ~5 minutes is waffle by two people introducing him and there is a Q&A section from about the hour mark. Hope it helps.
Steve
Thanks for telling me about it. I'll be watching/listening to it later today when I'm doing some lab work. |
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raunchel
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Post by raunchel on Dec 14, 2018 11:23:29 GMT
Paris, December 25, 1914
Dear Father,
I am truly sorry for my lack of recent writing, but so much has happened to stop me from doing so. Just before we would have left to deliver the ultimatum, Uncle Sytze read the final text. I fear that his health couldn’t bear it anymore, and he collapsed. I fear that Mother doesn’t yet know, and want to ask you to tell her delicately. I couldn’t bring myself to write her about this myself, for which I’m sorry.
There was little time to mourn, and we decided that I would instead present the document to the emperor. He was incensed, to say the least, denying that one of his submarines had attacked one of our ships, in order to lure us to war with the French. This was despite all our evidence to the contrary.
He barely restrained himself from striking me, but didn’t allow me to explain any further. Naturally, we demanded a formal apology and acceptance of guilt and reparations in both this attack and the earlier one along with the handing over of senior naval officers for trial. I suggested that some officers might have been acting behind his back, an idea that he strongly rejected.
The emperor told me that this ultimatum was completely unacceptable, and almost chased me out. The population didn’t yet know what had happened, so I could return to the embassy without undue problems. Later that day, things however had changed and a crowd had gathered in front of the embassy. It was truly frightening.
I used that time to make all the necessary arrangements, especially concerning Uncle Sytze’s funeral. I asked the English minister to see to that, and he kindly agreed, for which I remain grateful. I’m deeply sorry that I wasn’t able to be there myself, but the situation demanded otherwise.
The last of our papers and codes were burned, and I said my goodbyes to Karen and Elsbeth. I hope that this war can quickly be resolved so I can see them again. It was a tearful goodbye and I gave them a few gifts to say goodbye. They then helped me pack my things while outside, the demonstration grew larger.
Later in the afternoon, German policemen entered the embassy, informing us that they were there to escort us to the train station because war had broken out. We needed their escort, it was downright frightening to see the crowds.
Because of the fighting on the border, we were sent southward, into Switzerland. From there, our small fellowship made its way to France, where we now reside in our embassy there. Mr. Bussenmaecker has been kind enough to allow us to stay for a little while, and has offered me a temporary posting. Gladly, I agreed. I know that I promised to return home, but I can still offer something to my country.
How are you? And how is Hendrik? I am worried over him, as it seems that he was right into the path of the German army when they launched their attack. I prayed for all of you every day, as well as for this war being over.
Your loving daughter,
Jakoba
Battlecruiser Vlijt, December 30, 1914
Dearest Jakoba,
You don’t know how much good it does me to receive your letter. We were all in a state of mourning, the English had told us about the death of Uncle Sytze, but it was unknown how you were and we all feared for the worst. Your mother feared that all sorts of terrible things had happened to you, and she deeply wishes for your quick return.
There has been no word from or about Hendrik, which makes me confident that he remains safe. A few days after war was declared however, terrible fighting around Luik started, the German forces appear very strong but at least the French have sent reinforcements.
Personally, I have been active in the North Sea in order to protect our shipping and shores. Your mother has returned from Ameland, also on my urging, because it would have been terribly exposed. The battlefleet has also been active in supporting operations to further secure our coastal position, including an assault on Borkum, which I covered at a distance by an attack on German patrols near Heligoland leading to a small victory.
I have also busied myself with other matters. Because we are now at war, the building of lighter ships has been increased in order to have sufficient escorts for our convoys. The admiralty of Antwerpen has been kind enough to offer your mother the honour of christening a newly launched light cruiser and to name it in your honour.
On land, we are on the defensive in the south, facing the bulk of the German forces arrayed against us, but fortunately, there is a small offensive to take the other side of the Ems underway. From what I’ve heard, they have taken Papenburg and Emden.
Unfortunately, it seems that your Japanese ceasefire has broken down in response to this, and the treacherous yellows have declared war again. I unfortunately know little about the fighting there.
In North America, Philadelphia has been taken and the ships in its harbour were scuttled. Our troops, now reinforced to a total of eight divisions along with auxiliary units, have also taken large parts the Delmarva peninsula, allowing them to threaten the enemy capital. Our generals there are requesting more men, but given the military situation, they are instead being sent here.
The day after tomorrow, I will be going to sea again, and pray for victory.
Your loving father,
Johan Rots
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I'm wondering if Jakota's comment about Elsbeth family is a subtle retort to him? Which unfortunately I suspect will go right over his head.
