lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Dec 7, 2018 14:57:46 GMT
If it is proved to be Germany and war with the Dutch follows then it would be interesting which way Britain goes, of the three options available? Can't really see them siding with Germany, especially with Germany shown to be trying to trigger an Anglo-Dutch war. However do they join the war against the Germans or stay neutral? I can see arguments either way.
This would be for the British then the Fifth Anglo-Dutch war and if i remember correctly but raunchel can answer this the first for the Republic. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Dec 7, 2018 17:03:56 GMT
If it is proved to be Germany and war with the Dutch follows then it would be interesting which way Britain goes, of the three options available? Can't really see them siding with Germany, especially with Germany shown to be trying to trigger an Anglo-Dutch war. However do they join the war against the Germans or stay neutral? I can see arguments either way.
This would be for the British then the Fifth Anglo-Dutch war and if i remember correctly but raunchel can answer this the first for the Republic.
I think you mis-read what I said? The one option I ruled out was going to war on Germany's side against the Dutch. That doesn't seem likely given both bad relations with Germany and the fact the Germans have been exposed as trying to generate a war between Britain and the Netherlands.
Technically it depends on if you include the limited conflict in 1780-84 which Wiki does but mentions some other sources don't. If so there have been 4 conflicts between the two nations, or possibly 5 if you include the French satellite of the Batavian Republic.
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raunchel
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Post by raunchel on Dec 10, 2018 10:04:08 GMT
Battlecruiser Geloof, November 17, 1914Dearest Jakoba, I am sorry for not having waited for your most recent letter, but the events of earlier today compel me to write you. This very night, a part of our Channel Patrol came under attack. The armoured cruiser David en Goliath was attacked with torpedoes. Fortunately, the crew could detect the wakes in the moonlight and evasive maneuvers were performed. Only a single hit was suffered, and the submarine that had launched the attack was sighted and sunk with all hands. With the aid of other ships, David en Goliath made it back to Kales for repairs. Sixteen sailors have lost their life in this cowardly attack. We are sending out divers to find the submarine’s wreck and look for evidence regarding the perpetrators of this treacherous act. I have ordered all my ships to be at full alert but to refrain from firing until the enemy begins hostilities. The squadron is kept ready to steam at short notice. Word has reached us that admiral Wolters is indeed occupying New York given an apparent lack of enemy army units. His reinforcements have pushed inland and have been placed under the command of general Goris. I don’t know him very well, but given that he’s an actual army officer, not even a marine, I don’t have high hopes. Your loving father, Johan Rots Berlin, November 21, 1914Dear Father, The dreadful news has reached us here in Berlin and it’s beyond words. When I heard that one of our ships had been attacked, I was worried for you until I knew which ship it was. It shocked me that someone would dare to do such a thing at a time like this. At first, I would have suspected the English to be behind this, but I don’t see why. They only hit an old armoured cruiser, not a modern battlecruiser or other kind of warship. If they wanted to start a war with us, I would have expected them to simply attack us directly, to seize any surprise they can to cause maximum destruction. That leaves two possible causes. The French or the Germans. The French could be attempting to make it look like someone else was responsible, but the location points either towards them or to the English. And the English are more likely to blame, given the location. I believe that those two are aligned in some regards, and such a war wouldn’t gain the French much. The other option is that the Germans are guilty. I am inclined to believe this given the revelations from Madrid concerning their possible involvement. Elsbeth and Karen both deem this rather unlikely, pointing to the geography and that they are already winning their war. To me, it doesn’t look like that however. The French front has come to a stalemate, and only their eastern victories give the Germans any hope for a quick resolution. They did push for us to let them pass through the southern provinces to attack France, and I still hear about it, albeit more muted than before. If they indeed were responsible for this attack, they must have supposed that we would suspect the French or English, and thus be forced to fight them. Because of my many friendships here, I pray that this isn’t the case and hope that the divers will find conclusive evidence. Other than that, things have been developing further here. The Germans are on the outskirts of Warsaw while the Austrians are advancing further east. The common belief is that most of Poland will be in their hands before the year is out. Uncle Sytze has been meeting with the Turk again, while I was again invited by the emperor. He spoke to me about his plans for Europe after they have won the war. He wants to ensure peace by cooperation, which I find a beautiful ideal although I have come to fear that man’s nature makes that very difficult indeed. I however agreed that trade between nations will always be a good thing. From there, we moved to our blockade of the North Americans. It seems that he finds this rather worrisome because of the importance of this trade to him. I assured him that soon enough, the North Americans will see sense and seek peace. He also revealed to me that more than a hundred thousand German men have already died, with more than two hundred thousand wounded. Such numbers are simply stunning, especially when he told me that he expected more losses to come before the war is over. Naturally, I didn’t say anything about the recent incident, only saying that it is being investigated. He immediately said that it had to be the French, claiming that they were getting desperate because of their losses and by doing this hoped to bring in English support. I pray that this situation can soon be resolved so we can continue in peace. Your loving daughter, Jakoba
Raunchel
Well that is interesting and dramatic. It could be a RN sub that got trigger happy for some reason but very much doubt the RN would authorise such an action. As Jakoba says, in the unlikely event of Britain deciding on a sneak attack like this the RN would be planning a much more significant blow.
A French sub is a possibility, especially if there was a mistaken identity and they thought it was a German force but again that seems unlikely. Germany could be a candidate but it would be a rash move, although thinking of how Germany got America into the war that isn't impossible. Other than that with the range of subs at the time and the current political situation I can't really see any other nation having a sub in the area. If it is a German sub and given the info from Spain I think the French are going to have a powerful ally. Although can the Dutch hold their homeland, even with reserves mobilised, against the German army or would they need to, and be willing to, ask the French for support? It would also given an interesting comparison of the Dutch with OTL in terms of military effectiveness. Would probably also mean that French concerns about nitrate supplies disappear as the Dutch would want them to be able to continue fighting.
One thing I find a bit strange is that it sounds like the sub was on the surface as they located it? True the Germans attacked at night in the Atlantic in WWII but that was in part because they knew the British had Asdic/Sonar and I would have thought that they would have been submerged, or at least submerged after the attack. Could also have been on the surface as they could move faster. If it did submerge then either they were lucky to catch it or they have something like depth charges for attacking subs, which I don't think anyone in OTL had at the time.
While it looks good at the moment I think the holding of New York and especially the push inland is going to end badly for the Dutch as it plays to American strengths in manpower.
Like the service rivalry between the navy and army.  All too often in many countries.
Steve
PS Should have said, glad that Jakoba was using her brain and considering who the likely attackers were. Fearing that Johan and the other hawks would assume that the British were responsible and probably another incident would quickly follow.
If it is proved to be Germany and war with the Dutch follows then it would be interesting which way Britain goes, of the three options available? Can't really see them siding with Germany, especially with Germany shown to be trying to trigger an Anglo-Dutch war. However do they join the war against the Germans or stay neutral? I can see arguments either way.
Neutrality would avoid possibly a damaging split in the government over the issue and willingness to go to war could be low with reports of the size of the casualty lists being reported. On the other hand German actions are a clear casus belli, we were friendly with the French before and can Britain afford to see France, the Netherlands and Russia as victorious allies dominating Europe with them isolated? Although that would also mean we're 'allied' with the Dutch who are at war with the Japanese - our only formal ally - and the US, a major trading partner which could cause difficulties. Not sure which way we would go myself or which is the best approach for Britain.
There are multiple suspects in this attack, and this time, it's clear that there really was someone involved and not just an idiot smoking in the wrong place for instance (never underestimate idiots). It is leading to another war scare, and more demands for extra troops to be brought home. The Dutch, even with reinforcements, can't hold against the Germans on their own. Not without more time to bring in troops from overseas. And now there also is the drain that is New York. So, against the Germans they would need the French and vice versa. Both won't be popular of course, but if the choice is between getting foreign troops in the country and getting foreign troops in the country who are there as an invasion force, it's not that difficult anymore. As far as I know, subs often had to come close to the surface to launch torpedoes, and here, they were unlucky enough to be seen. From what I know, they would submerge afterwards, but the Dutch ship already was on high alert, allowing someone to spot the sub and moments later, it got hit hard by guns because it wasn't that far away. Unfortunately, subs can be quite easy to sink once you have them under your guns. If they could have gotten it to surrender, things would be so much easier. Interservice rivalry always is the most important one, even today. At such a time, I think it would only have been a lot worse. And the budget fights of course are incredibly vicious. Jakoba doesn't want any more wars. She thinks that they only lead to suffering and are quite a big risk. She would prefer to build up a more peaceful system, especially because that leaves more options for her to leave her mark. Britain indeed has three (or four) options. They can try to remain neutral, which would have advantages, but it has already cost them quite a bit and if someone hostile to them wins on the Continent, they're basically doomed. Especially if the winning party includes the Dutch. The worst-case scenario of course is a Dutch-German alliance, they would outnumber the RN 2-1 in the North Sea alone, basically reducing it to a fleet in being. That would allow them to force landings across the Channel, and that's it for Britain. So, they have to prop up the French and Russians (and assorted others) to contain that threat. At the same time, the food situation is precarious already due to the disruption to the Empire (and USA), and going to war against the Dutch could lead to them being blockaded and suffering serious food shortages. And there isn't a government in the world that can survive that for any serious length of time. They can do the same against their enemies, turning it into a match to see who collapses first. So, neutrality has its advantages. The ideal situation here is if the Dutch somehow ally with the Germans, and the Franco-Russian alliance somehow manages to beat them, collapsing two threats without a massive cost. Of course, that isn't very likely given that the Entente already had a hard fight, and that was with the British on board (and American support). A third option is to try to collaborate with the Germans against the Dutch. If that happens, they have the numerical advantage at sea, which would allow the British to regain (and maintain) dominance in that regard. Of course, this is risky and might be quite difficult to justify to the public. The fourth option is ignoring the continental war, and just fighting the Dutch, using the Anglo-Japanese alliance as a fig leaf. This basically means having two serious wars going on at the same time, with the Entente and the Central Powers fighting a European war while the Anglo-Dutch (+allies) war sets the seas and colonies on fire. If it is proved to be Germany and war with the Dutch follows then it would be interesting which way Britain goes, of the three options available? Can't really see them siding with Germany, especially with Germany shown to be trying to trigger an Anglo-Dutch war. However do they join the war against the Germans or stay neutral? I can see arguments either way.
This would be for the British then the Fifth Anglo-Dutch war and if i remember correctly but raunchel can answer this the first for the Republic. This would be for the British then the Fifth Anglo-Dutch war and if i remember correctly but raunchel can answer this the first for the Republic.
I think you mis-read what I said? The one option I ruled out was going to war on Germany's side against the Dutch. That doesn't seem likely given both bad relations with Germany and the fact the Germans have been exposed as trying to generate a war between Britain and the Netherlands.
Technically it depends on if you include the limited conflict in 1780-84 which Wiki does but mentions some other sources don't. If so there have been 4 conflicts between the two nations, or possibly 5 if you include the French satellite of the Batavian Republic.
In our timeline, we've had four, in this one they had the 11th in the late 19th century, and were busy preparing for a 12th. But this time, it would have been definitive. Just like the last ones. |
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raunchel
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Post by raunchel on Dec 10, 2018 10:04:19 GMT
Battlecruiser Geloof, November 24, 1914
Dearest Jakoba,
What you write about the casualties the Germans are suffering indeed looks terrible, and there is reason to believe that the German emperor would instead be understating the number, to seek to entice us to an alliance. And please, don’t let yourself be swayed by kind words of cooperation. The nature of great powers is very simple, and none can be trusted to have our sense of honour, given to us by our faith.
The number of dead from the cowardly attack on David en Goliath has risen to twenty-three as several men have died from their injuries. Your speculations concerning the nature of the attack make sense, but we need evidence. The divers haven’t been able to find much yet due to poor weather in the Channel.
We have sent out a message that any submarine vessel that is sighted will be destroyed on sight. Actions such as these simply can’t be allowed and we have to protect ourselves. Furthermore, the decision has been made to start a system of convoys for our shipping, to secure it should war break out. Fortunately, the battle line has been joined by Revolutie and in the Americas, Republiek and Repressie have been commissioned. Repressie, Leeuwin, Vreede, Oliphant, and Pacificatie along with attending destroyers are being sent to reinforce the fleet at Kanarië, to strengthen it should war come to our shores.
A more secure connection to the North American front has been achieved, and much more is known now. A full division of Venda has been moved to New York, to hold onto the area and to expand our local holdings. There have been a few small attacks by the North Americans, but nothing sufficient in strength to concern our holding of the area. Several older battleships remain to provide heavy artillery should the need arise.
The prize convoy has reached Mauritsstad and engineers will prepare their report on the state of the ships and how useful they will be. They will also report on how quickly our ships can be repaired.
In the Far East, admiral Oude Luttinkhuis has fought a battle off Yakushima, where he engaged a Japanese squadron. The enemy was driven off, and at least three enemy old-fashioned battleships were sunk. He will soon press on to liberate Nagasaki and avenge Karel’s death as well as our nation’s honour.
Your loving father,
Johan Rots
Berlin, November 27, 1914
Dear Father,
Recent events are most worrying. I have spoken to Mrs Gerard who seems to be a little calmer towards me now, although I still felt some resentment. She said that her nation wouldn’t make peace because they haven’t been beaten, and even told me that they would soon evict us from New York. In turn, I told her that I see this war as an unfortunate event and that we do not seek to do any further damage and regret the loss of life and property that it has led to. I told her that we are open to opening negotiations, but she said that that would never happen.
To be honest, it was almost frightening to see the fire in her eyes. I presume that it could be because of the loss of her son, but somewhere, I fear that it is more. We’re not yet in a position to force the North americans to see sense, and if they prove wiling to bear sacrifice, as is to be expected of a protestant people, they won’t give in easily.
Sir Edward has denied any English involvement whatsoever with the attack on David en Goliath, and said that he would suspect the Germans. I am starting to feel confused about what’s happening. I have also received word about the investigation in England, there, nothing substantial could be found, although, of course, a lack of cooperation might very well be the reason for that. With the Germans, it’s the same.
Nevertheless, I have heard from the English about our war with Japan. They have been told that the Japanese have indeed lost several ships, most of them older battleships they had taken from the Russians, but also that one of their two modern battleships has suffered extensive damage. They claim that we have lost four modern battleships, which does seem rather unlikely to me, especially because their ambassador has reported that our men have taken several islands by storm.
I have also been told that there has been a revolt against the Belgians in Central Africa, the colony they call the Congo. People are appalled because there have been terrible atrocities against the white rulers and I have been told that we will be sending an expedition to restore order and take over rulership.
Naturally, I discussed it with the chancellor and have proposed that we would take over stewardship over the colony, and that in 1919, an international convention would be held to decide on its future ownership. This proposal had been approved by The Hague and they have also informed other great powers about this.
Elsbeth, the new friend I wrote you about, had some terrible news to offer as well. It seems that her brother Konrad has been unjured in battle against the French, although he writes that it is only a minor injury and that he remains in his position. It seems that he has been given a promotion because of heavy casualties to the officers of his cavalry regiment.
She however has been kind enough to move into the embassy, bringing me much relief because there now are several ladies I can speak to about the simpler parts of life.
Your loving daughter,
Jakoba
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Post by eurowatch on Dec 10, 2018 12:21:25 GMT
I am curious about this, but why did the Dutch limit themselves to just colonising Nagasaki instead of all of Kyushu when Japan was so weak ITTL?
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raunchel
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Post by raunchel on Dec 10, 2018 13:07:18 GMT
I am curious about this, but why did the Dutch limit themselves to just colonising Nagasaki instead of all of Kyushu when Japan was so weak ITTL? Because they actually are quite cheap, and mostly wanted an area to trade from and to enforce their monopoly. There was no need to take over large parts of Japan and it would only have cost money that could also be spent on other things. |
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raunchel
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Post by raunchel on Dec 10, 2018 13:11:26 GMT
Oh! And before I forget it, I have added portraits of Jakoba and Johan to the first post.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Dec 10, 2018 15:05:25 GMT
Battlecruiser Geloof, November 24, 1914Dearest Jakoba, What you write about the casualties the Germans are suffering indeed looks terrible, and there is reason to believe that the German emperor would instead be understating the number, to seek to entice us to an alliance. And please, don’t let yourself be swayed by kind words of cooperation. The nature of great powers is very simple, and none can be trusted to have our sense of honour, given to us by our faith. The number of dead from the cowardly attack on David en Goliath has risen to twenty-three as several men have died from their injuries. Your speculations concerning the nature of the attack make sense, but we need evidence. The divers haven’t been able to find much yet due to poor weather in the Channel. We have sent out a message that any submarine vessel that is sighted will be destroyed on sight. Actions such as these simply can’t be allowed and we have to protect ourselves. Furthermore, the decision has been made to start a system of convoys for our shipping, to secure it should war break out. Fortunately, the battle line has been joined by Revolutie and in the Americas, Republiek and Repressie have been commissioned. Repressie, Leeuwin, Vreede, Oliphant, and Pacificatie along with attending destroyers are being sent to reinforce the fleet at Kanarië, to strengthen it should war come to our shores. A more secure connection to the North American front has been achieved, and much more is known now. A full division of Venda has been moved to New York, to hold onto the area and to expand our local holdings. There have been a few small attacks by the North Americans, but nothing sufficient in strength to concern our holding of the area. Several older battleships remain to provide heavy artillery should the need arise. The prize convoy has reached Mauritsstad and engineers will prepare their report on the state of the ships and how useful they will be. They will also report on how quickly our ships can be repaired. In the Far East, admiral Oude Luttinkhuis has fought a battle off Yakushima, where he engaged a Japanese squadron. The enemy was driven off, and at least three enemy old-fashioned battleships were sunk. He will soon press on to liberate Nagasaki and avenge Karel’s death as well as our nation’s honour. Your loving father, Johan Rots Berlin, November 27, 1914Dear Father, Recent events are most worrying. I have spoken to Mrs Gerard who seems to be a little calmer towards me now, although I still felt some resentment. She said that her nation wouldn’t make peace because they haven’t been beaten, and even told me that they would soon evict us from New York. In turn, I told her that I see this war as an unfortunate event and that we do not seek to do any further damage and regret the loss of life and property that it has led to. I told her that we are open to opening negotiations, but she said that that would never happen. To be honest, it was almost frightening to see the fire in her eyes. I presume that it could be because of the loss of her son, but somewhere, I fear that it is more. We’re not yet in a position to force the North americans to see sense, and if they prove wiling to bear sacrifice, as is to be expected of a protestant people, they won’t give in easily. Sir Edward has denied any English involvement whatsoever with the attack on David en Goliath, and said that he would suspect the Germans. I am starting to feel confused about what’s happening. I have also received word about the investigation in England, there, nothing substantial could be found, although, of course, a lack of cooperation might very well be the reason for that. With the Germans, it’s the same. Nevertheless, I have heard from the English about our war with Japan. They have been told that the Japanese have indeed lost several ships, most of them older battleships they had taken from the Russians, but also that one of their two modern battleships has suffered extensive damage. They claim that we have lost four modern battleships, which does seem rather unlikely to me, especially because their ambassador has reported that our men have taken several islands by storm. I have also been told that there has been a revolt against the Belgians in Central Africa, the colony they call the Congo. People are appalled because there have been terrible atrocities against the white rulers and I have been told that we will be sending an expedition to restore order and take over rulership. Naturally, I discussed it with the chancellor and have proposed that we would take over stewardship over the colony, and that in 1919, an international convention would be held to decide on its future ownership. This proposal had been approved by The Hague and they have also informed other great powers about this. Elsbeth, the new friend I wrote you about, had some terrible news to offer as well. It seems that her brother Konrad has been unjured in battle against the French, although he writes that it is only a minor injury and that he remains in his position. It seems that he has been given a promotion because of heavy casualties to the officers of his cavalry regiment. She however has been kind enough to move into the embassy, bringing me much relief because there now are several ladies I can speak to about the simpler parts of life. Your loving daughter, Jakoba Another nice update raunchel |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Dec 10, 2018 16:32:07 GMT
Raunchel
Well that is interesting and dramatic. It could be a RN sub that got trigger happy for some reason but very much doubt the RN would authorise such an action. As Jakoba says, in the unlikely event of Britain deciding on a sneak attack like this the RN would be planning a much more significant blow.
A French sub is a possibility, especially if there was a mistaken identity and they thought it was a German force but again that seems unlikely. Germany could be a candidate but it would be a rash move, although thinking of how Germany got America into the war that isn't impossible. Other than that with the range of subs at the time and the current political situation I can't really see any other nation having a sub in the area. If it is a German sub and given the info from Spain I think the French are going to have a powerful ally. Although can the Dutch hold their homeland, even with reserves mobilised, against the German army or would they need to, and be willing to, ask the French for support? It would also given an interesting comparison of the Dutch with OTL in terms of military effectiveness. Would probably also mean that French concerns about nitrate supplies disappear as the Dutch would want them to be able to continue fighting.
One thing I find a bit strange is that it sounds like the sub was on the surface as they located it? True the Germans attacked at night in the Atlantic in WWII but that was in part because they knew the British had Asdic/Sonar and I would have thought that they would have been submerged, or at least submerged after the attack. Could also have been on the surface as they could move faster. If it did submerge then either they were lucky to catch it or they have something like depth charges for attacking subs, which I don't think anyone in OTL had at the time.
While it looks good at the moment I think the holding of New York and especially the push inland is going to end badly for the Dutch as it plays to American strengths in manpower.
Like the service rivalry between the navy and army. All too often in many countries.
Steve
PS Should have said, glad that Jakoba was using her brain and considering who the likely attackers were. Fearing that Johan and the other hawks would assume that the British were responsible and probably another incident would quickly follow.
If it is proved to be Germany and war with the Dutch follows then it would be interesting which way Britain goes, of the three options available? Can't really see them siding with Germany, especially with Germany shown to be trying to trigger an Anglo-Dutch war. However do they join the war against the Germans or stay neutral? I can see arguments either way.
Neutrality would avoid possibly a damaging split in the government over the issue and willingness to go to war could be low with reports of the size of the casualty lists being reported. On the other hand German actions are a clear casus belli, we were friendly with the French before and can Britain afford to see France, the Netherlands and Russia as victorious allies dominating Europe with them isolated? Although that would also mean we're 'allied' with the Dutch who are at war with the Japanese - our only formal ally - and the US, a major trading partner which could cause difficulties. Not sure which way we would go myself or which is the best approach for Britain.
There are multiple suspects in this attack, and this time, it's clear that there really was someone involved and not just an idiot smoking in the wrong place for instance (never underestimate idiots). It is leading to another war scare, and more demands for extra troops to be brought home. The Dutch, even with reinforcements, can't hold against the Germans on their own. Not without more time to bring in troops from overseas. And now there also is the drain that is New York. So, against the Germans they would need the French and vice versa. Both won't be popular of course, but if the choice is between getting foreign troops in the country and getting foreign troops in the country who are there as an invasion force, it's not that difficult anymore. As far as I know, subs often had to come close to the surface to launch torpedoes, and here, they were unlucky enough to be seen. From what I know, they would submerge afterwards, but the Dutch ship already was on high alert, allowing someone to spot the sub and moments later, it got hit hard by guns because it wasn't that far away. Unfortunately, subs can be quite easy to sink once you have them under your guns. If they could have gotten it to surrender, things would be so much easier. Interservice rivalry always is the most important one, even today. At such a time, I think it would only have been a lot worse. And the budget fights of course are incredibly vicious. Jakoba doesn't want any more wars. She thinks that they only lead to suffering and are quite a big risk. She would prefer to build up a more peaceful system, especially because that leaves more options for her to leave her mark. Britain indeed has three (or four) options. They can try to remain neutral, which would have advantages, but it has already cost them quite a bit and if someone hostile to them wins on the Continent, they're basically doomed. Especially if the winning party includes the Dutch. The worst-case scenario of course is a Dutch-German alliance, they would outnumber the RN 2-1 in the North Sea alone, basically reducing it to a fleet in being. That would allow them to force landings across the Channel, and that's it for Britain. So, they have to prop up the French and Russians (and assorted others) to contain that threat. At the same time, the food situation is precarious already due to the disruption to the Empire (and USA), and going to war against the Dutch could lead to them being blockaded and suffering serious food shortages. And there isn't a government in the world that can survive that for any serious length of time. They can do the same against their enemies, turning it into a match to see who collapses first. So, neutrality has its advantages. The ideal situation here is if the Dutch somehow ally with the Germans, and the Franco-Russian alliance somehow manages to beat them, collapsing two threats without a massive cost. Of course, that isn't very likely given that the Entente already had a hard fight, and that was with the British on board (and American support). A third option is to try to collaborate with the Germans against the Dutch. If that happens, they have the numerical advantage at sea, which would allow the British to regain (and maintain) dominance in that regard. Of course, this is risky and might be quite difficult to justify to the public. The fourth option is ignoring the continental war, and just fighting the Dutch, using the Anglo-Japanese alliance as a fig leaf. This basically means having two serious wars going on at the same time, with the Entente and the Central Powers fighting a European war while the Anglo-Dutch (+allies) war sets the seas and colonies on fire. This would be for the British then the Fifth Anglo-Dutch war and if i remember correctly but raunchel can answer this the first for the Republic.
I think you mis-read what I said? The one option I ruled out was going to war on Germany's side against the Dutch. That doesn't seem likely given both bad relations with Germany and the fact the Germans have been exposed as trying to generate a war between Britain and the Netherlands.
Technically it depends on if you include the limited conflict in 1780-84 which Wiki does but mentions some other sources don't. If so there have been 4 conflicts between the two nations, or possibly 5 if you include the French satellite of the Batavian Republic.
In our timeline, we've had four, in this one they had the 11th in the late 19th century, and were busy preparing for a 12th. But this time, it would have been definitive. Just like the last ones.
Raunchel
Good analysis but I did say " If it is proved to be Germany [behind the attack] and war with the Dutch follows" which prevents some of the options you mentioned, although this was in my PS so you might have missed it.
If that goes on to be the case then I can't see the Dutch not making at least some sort of agreement with France, as neither would want Germany to overrun the Netherlands and threaten France's NE border. Although that could lead to problems with the US who wouldn't be happy. Unless the French were to risk that staying outside that conflict at least until the Germans were virtually on their border, would be practical , which would be a hell of a gamble.
Therefore I could only really see Britain either staying neutral or allying with the EP and Dutch against the CP. The main problem with the latter being that it could put us on a collision course with Japan and sour relations with the US. Possibly a dow with Germany because they tried to frame Britain for the attack and linking up with the EP but making clear the Dutch are co-belligerents and that we will do nothing to support attacks on Japan or the US, which is still going to be very messy.
That's a hell of a lot of wars in their TL. Especially given the Dutch success in building up a substantial colonial empire and having a stranglehold on all the routes to the Indian Ocean and Pacific - ignoring those through the Arctic - its amazing that England has survived, especially with an independent and probably hostile Scotland.
Jakoba is showing a hell of a lot more sense than the vast majority of people in Europe at the time.
As I understand it, if facing an unarmed merchant-ship the sub would often come to the surface, check it was from an enemy power or taking contraband to one then order the crew into lifeboats and sinking the ship with their deck gun. This was required under the blockade rules at the time and also a gun, which required being on the surface as a sub could only carry a limited number of torpedoes and hence would prefer not to use them if it could be avoided.
However if attacking a warship, most noticeably with so called dead bait squadron tragedy - see Action_of_22_September_1914, they would attack from a submerged position as that would be the best way of getting close enough to launch without being spotted. Less so at night but the only reason I could see for a sub being on the surface is that it can move faster to get into a good position and I would expect it it submerge immediately after the attack if not before actually firing. Possibly the best option would be to assume that it was caught in the process of submerging, which might also explain why there seems to be no survivors - which would really expose who was responsible.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Dec 10, 2018 16:52:12 GMT
Battlecruiser Geloof, November 24, 1914Dearest Jakoba, What you write about the casualties the Germans are suffering indeed looks terrible, and there is reason to believe that the German emperor would instead be understating the number, to seek to entice us to an alliance. And please, don’t let yourself be swayed by kind words of cooperation. The nature of great powers is very simple, and none can be trusted to have our sense of honour, given to us by our faith. The number of dead from the cowardly attack on David en Goliath has risen to twenty-three as several men have died from their injuries. Your speculations concerning the nature of the attack make sense, but we need evidence. The divers haven’t been able to find much yet due to poor weather in the Channel. We have sent out a message that any submarine vessel that is sighted will be destroyed on sight. Actions such as these simply can’t be allowed and we have to protect ourselves. Furthermore, the decision has been made to start a system of convoys for our shipping, to secure it should war break out. Fortunately, the battle line has been joined by Revolutie and in the Americas, Republiek and Repressie have been commissioned. Repressie, Leeuwin, Vreede, Oliphant, and Pacificatie along with attending destroyers are being sent to reinforce the fleet at Kanarië, to strengthen it should war come to our shores. A more secure connection to the North American front has been achieved, and much more is known now. A full division of Venda has been moved to New York, to hold onto the area and to expand our local holdings. There have been a few small attacks by the North Americans, but nothing sufficient in strength to concern our holding of the area. Several older battleships remain to provide heavy artillery should the need arise. The prize convoy has reached Mauritsstad and engineers will prepare their report on the state of the ships and how useful they will be. They will also report on how quickly our ships can be repaired. In the Far East, admiral Oude Luttinkhuis has fought a battle off Yakushima, where he engaged a Japanese squadron. The enemy was driven off, and at least three enemy old-fashioned battleships were sunk. He will soon press on to liberate Nagasaki and avenge Karel’s death as well as our nation’s honour. Your loving father, Johan Rots Berlin, November 27, 1914Dear Father, Recent events are most worrying. I have spoken to Mrs Gerard who seems to be a little calmer towards me now, although I still felt some resentment. She said that her nation wouldn’t make peace because they haven’t been beaten, and even told me that they would soon evict us from New York. In turn, I told her that I see this war as an unfortunate event and that we do not seek to do any further damage and regret the loss of life and property that it has led to. I told her that we are open to opening negotiations, but she said that that would never happen. To be honest, it was almost frightening to see the fire in her eyes. I presume that it could be because of the loss of her son, but somewhere, I fear that it is more. We’re not yet in a position to force the North americans to see sense, and if they prove wiling to bear sacrifice, as is to be expected of a protestant people, they won’t give in easily. Sir Edward has denied any English involvement whatsoever with the attack on David en Goliath, and said that he would suspect the Germans. I am starting to feel confused about what’s happening. I have also received word about the investigation in England, there, nothing substantial could be found, although, of course, a lack of cooperation might very well be the reason for that. With the Germans, it’s the same. Nevertheless, I have heard from the English about our war with Japan. They have been told that the Japanese have indeed lost several ships, most of them older battleships they had taken from the Russians, but also that one of their two modern battleships has suffered extensive damage. They claim that we have lost four modern battleships, which does seem rather unlikely to me, especially because their ambassador has reported that our men have taken several islands by storm. I have also been told that there has been a revolt against the Belgians in Central Africa, the colony they call the Congo. People are appalled because there have been terrible atrocities against the white rulers and I have been told that we will be sending an expedition to restore order and take over rulership. Naturally, I discussed it with the chancellor and have proposed that we would take over stewardship over the colony, and that in 1919, an international convention would be held to decide on its future ownership. This proposal had been approved by The Hague and they have also informed other great powers about this. Elsbeth, the new friend I wrote you about, had some terrible news to offer as well. It seems that her brother Konrad has been unjured in battle against the French, although he writes that it is only a minor injury and that he remains in his position. It seems that he has been given a promotion because of heavy casualties to the officers of his cavalry regiment. She however has been kind enough to move into the embassy, bringing me much relief because there now are several ladies I can speak to about the simpler parts of life. Your loving daughter, Jakoba
Raunchel
Interesting case of fog of war with regards to events in Japan. Guessing that the report of several islands taken by storm would refer to relatively minor ones, possibly including Tsushima or say the chain of islands between Taiwan and Japan is more likely, given the power of the Japanese army and their close proximity to their bases. As you say Japan only has 2 Kongo class BCs at the moment so if one has been badly damaged that would be a significant loss. Could also see significant Dutch losses or possibly more likely damage because the Japanese will have a lot of light vessels for attacking the invaders and possibly also some damage from minefields and coastal guns. Not to mention it sounds like the Dutch were drastically underestimating their opponents. Have to see what the state of play is when we get the actual facts. Can't see them getting Nagasaki back any time soon as the Japanese will fight hard for it and you could see further Dutch naval ships lost/damaged because they will be continually vulnerable to attack at any point. Do they have any secure port at this stage nearer than Taiwan?
The US does tend to go for all or nothing wars when their attacked so there's definitely going to be a lot of fighting there, especially given the sort of demands the Dutch were talking about. However the Americans have relatively little capacity for real military offensive in the short and to a degree the medium term. As such I think its going to be a bloody mess.
Are the Venda the black colonial units? That is likely to prompt a bad reaction in much of the US given racial feeling at the time and given the contempt them seem to be held in by at least a fair number of Dutch their caught between a rock and a hard place.
I can see the Dutch seeking to take over the Belgium Congo but I wonder why their talking about 1919 before an international convention on the issue?
Anyway a good update and the confusion and conflict continues to grow.
Steve
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Dec 10, 2018 16:54:41 GMT
Oh! And before I forget it, I have added portraits of Jakoba and Johan to the first post.
Well Johan's dress uniform looks almost 18thC. I don't know enough about OTL fashion in 1914 to comment on Jakoba's clothing but does look very formal, which would fit in with what we're hearing about their culture.
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raunchel
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Post by raunchel on Dec 10, 2018 21:13:08 GMT
Battlecruiser Geloof, November 24, 1914Dearest Jakoba, What you write about the casualties the Germans are suffering indeed looks terrible, and there is reason to believe that the German emperor would instead be understating the number, to seek to entice us to an alliance. And please, don’t let yourself be swayed by kind words of cooperation. The nature of great powers is very simple, and none can be trusted to have our sense of honour, given to us by our faith. The number of dead from the cowardly attack on David en Goliath has risen to twenty-three as several men have died from their injuries. Your speculations concerning the nature of the attack make sense, but we need evidence. The divers haven’t been able to find much yet due to poor weather in the Channel. We have sent out a message that any submarine vessel that is sighted will be destroyed on sight. Actions such as these simply can’t be allowed and we have to protect ourselves. Furthermore, the decision has been made to start a system of convoys for our shipping, to secure it should war break out. Fortunately, the battle line has been joined by Revolutie and in the Americas, Republiek and Repressie have been commissioned. Repressie, Leeuwin, Vreede, Oliphant, and Pacificatie along with attending destroyers are being sent to reinforce the fleet at Kanarië, to strengthen it should war come to our shores. A more secure connection to the North American front has been achieved, and much more is known now. A full division of Venda has been moved to New York, to hold onto the area and to expand our local holdings. There have been a few small attacks by the North Americans, but nothing sufficient in strength to concern our holding of the area. Several older battleships remain to provide heavy artillery should the need arise. The prize convoy has reached Mauritsstad and engineers will prepare their report on the state of the ships and how useful they will be. They will also report on how quickly our ships can be repaired. In the Far East, admiral Oude Luttinkhuis has fought a battle off Yakushima, where he engaged a Japanese squadron. The enemy was driven off, and at least three enemy old-fashioned battleships were sunk. He will soon press on to liberate Nagasaki and avenge Karel’s death as well as our nation’s honour. Your loving father, Johan Rots Berlin, November 27, 1914Dear Father, Recent events are most worrying. I have spoken to Mrs Gerard who seems to be a little calmer towards me now, although I still felt some resentment. She said that her nation wouldn’t make peace because they haven’t been beaten, and even told me that they would soon evict us from New York. In turn, I told her that I see this war as an unfortunate event and that we do not seek to do any further damage and regret the loss of life and property that it has led to. I told her that we are open to opening negotiations, but she said that that would never happen. To be honest, it was almost frightening to see the fire in her eyes. I presume that it could be because of the loss of her son, but somewhere, I fear that it is more. We’re not yet in a position to force the North americans to see sense, and if they prove wiling to bear sacrifice, as is to be expected of a protestant people, they won’t give in easily. Sir Edward has denied any English involvement whatsoever with the attack on David en Goliath, and said that he would suspect the Germans. I am starting to feel confused about what’s happening. I have also received word about the investigation in England, there, nothing substantial could be found, although, of course, a lack of cooperation might very well be the reason for that. With the Germans, it’s the same. Nevertheless, I have heard from the English about our war with Japan. They have been told that the Japanese have indeed lost several ships, most of them older battleships they had taken from the Russians, but also that one of their two modern battleships has suffered extensive damage. They claim that we have lost four modern battleships, which does seem rather unlikely to me, especially because their ambassador has reported that our men have taken several islands by storm. I have also been told that there has been a revolt against the Belgians in Central Africa, the colony they call the Congo. People are appalled because there have been terrible atrocities against the white rulers and I have been told that we will be sending an expedition to restore order and take over rulership. Naturally, I discussed it with the chancellor and have proposed that we would take over stewardship over the colony, and that in 1919, an international convention would be held to decide on its future ownership. This proposal had been approved by The Hague and they have also informed other great powers about this. Elsbeth, the new friend I wrote you about, had some terrible news to offer as well. It seems that her brother Konrad has been unjured in battle against the French, although he writes that it is only a minor injury and that he remains in his position. It seems that he has been given a promotion because of heavy casualties to the officers of his cavalry regiment. She however has been kind enough to move into the embassy, bringing me much relief because there now are several ladies I can speak to about the simpler parts of life. Your loving daughter, Jakoba Another nice update raunchel Thank you! There are multiple suspects in this attack, and this time, it's clear that there really was someone involved and not just an idiot smoking in the wrong place for instance (never underestimate idiots). It is leading to another war scare, and more demands for extra troops to be brought home. The Dutch, even with reinforcements, can't hold against the Germans on their own. Not without more time to bring in troops from overseas. And now there also is the drain that is New York. So, against the Germans they would need the French and vice versa. Both won't be popular of course, but if the choice is between getting foreign troops in the country and getting foreign troops in the country who are there as an invasion force, it's not that difficult anymore. As far as I know, subs often had to come close to the surface to launch torpedoes, and here, they were unlucky enough to be seen. From what I know, they would submerge afterwards, but the Dutch ship already was on high alert, allowing someone to spot the sub and moments later, it got hit hard by guns because it wasn't that far away. Unfortunately, subs can be quite easy to sink once you have them under your guns. If they could have gotten it to surrender, things would be so much easier. Interservice rivalry always is the most important one, even today. At such a time, I think it would only have been a lot worse. And the budget fights of course are incredibly vicious. Jakoba doesn't want any more wars. She thinks that they only lead to suffering and are quite a big risk. She would prefer to build up a more peaceful system, especially because that leaves more options for her to leave her mark. Britain indeed has three (or four) options. They can try to remain neutral, which would have advantages, but it has already cost them quite a bit and if someone hostile to them wins on the Continent, they're basically doomed. Especially if the winning party includes the Dutch. The worst-case scenario of course is a Dutch-German alliance, they would outnumber the RN 2-1 in the North Sea alone, basically reducing it to a fleet in being. That would allow them to force landings across the Channel, and that's it for Britain. So, they have to prop up the French and Russians (and assorted others) to contain that threat. At the same time, the food situation is precarious already due to the disruption to the Empire (and USA), and going to war against the Dutch could lead to them being blockaded and suffering serious food shortages. And there isn't a government in the world that can survive that for any serious length of time. They can do the same against their enemies, turning it into a match to see who collapses first. So, neutrality has its advantages. The ideal situation here is if the Dutch somehow ally with the Germans, and the Franco-Russian alliance somehow manages to beat them, collapsing two threats without a massive cost. Of course, that isn't very likely given that the Entente already had a hard fight, and that was with the British on board (and American support). A third option is to try to collaborate with the Germans against the Dutch. If that happens, they have the numerical advantage at sea, which would allow the British to regain (and maintain) dominance in that regard. Of course, this is risky and might be quite difficult to justify to the public. The fourth option is ignoring the continental war, and just fighting the Dutch, using the Anglo-Japanese alliance as a fig leaf. This basically means having two serious wars going on at the same time, with the Entente and the Central Powers fighting a European war while the Anglo-Dutch (+allies) war sets the seas and colonies on fire. In our timeline, we've had four, in this one they had the 11th in the late 19th century, and were busy preparing for a 12th. But this time, it would have been definitive. Just like the last ones.
Raunchel
Good analysis but I did say " If it is proved to be Germany [behind the attack] and war with the Dutch follows" which prevents some of the options you mentioned, although this was in my PS so you might have missed it.
If that goes on to be the case then I can't see the Dutch not making at least some sort of agreement with France, as neither would want Germany to overrun the Netherlands and threaten France's NE border. Although that could lead to problems with the US who wouldn't be happy. Unless the French were to risk that staying outside that conflict at least until the Germans were virtually on their border, would be practical , which would be a hell of a gamble.
Therefore I could only really see Britain either staying neutral or allying with the EP and Dutch against the CP. The main problem with the latter being that it could put us on a collision course with Japan and sour relations with the US. Possibly a dow with Germany because they tried to frame Britain for the attack and linking up with the EP but making clear the Dutch are co-belligerents and that we will do nothing to support attacks on Japan or the US, which is still going to be very messy.
That's a hell of a lot of wars in their TL. Especially given the Dutch success in building up a substantial colonial empire and having a stranglehold on all the routes to the Indian Ocean and Pacific - ignoring those through the Arctic - its amazing that England has survived, especially with an independent and probably hostile Scotland.
Jakoba is showing a hell of a lot more sense than the vast majority of people in Europe at the time.
As I understand it, if facing an unarmed merchant-ship the sub would often come to the surface, check it was from an enemy power or taking contraband to one then order the crew into lifeboats and sinking the ship with their deck gun. This was required under the blockade rules at the time and also a gun, which required being on the surface as a sub could only carry a limited number of torpedoes and hence would prefer not to use them if it could be avoided.
However if attacking a warship, most noticeably with so called dead bait squadron tragedy - see Action_of_22_September_1914, they would attack from a submerged position as that would be the best way of getting close enough to launch without being spotted. Less so at night but the only reason I could see for a sub being on the surface is that it can move faster to get into a good position and I would expect it it submerge immediately after the attack if not before actually firing. Possibly the best option would be to assume that it was caught in the process of submerging, which might also explain why there seems to be no survivors - which would really expose who was responsible.
The Germans being responsible indeed changes the game. In that case, the Dutch have to work with the French to survive, and the French can really use the support too, especially with Russia not being as powerful as expected. There would probably be some kind of localized alliance with the French declaring no further wars. The Japanese are too busy to make trouble for them, and the USA also has some other things on its mind and is in no position to hurt any place French. Here the English have three choices, neutrality, Central Powers, or Entente. As you say, the Central Powers would be a little difficult and would take a lot of work. Them going Entente means that the Entente wins the war, the Italians will certainly join them, and because the Ottomans aren't in yet, they might also choose to stay out (unless their hand if forced). The British staying neutral would have advantages, but is costs them French goodwill, which will be important after the war. There was a whole bunch of wars, but the Dutch didn't win all of them (although they claim otherwise of course), and the English have gone through several governments in all that time. Many of these wars also were coalition wars, further changing things. And they never beat the Swedes and Danes, they probably have the record. Jakoba is someone with quite a bit of political insight, and she also has some understanding of things like PR. These things will play a big role later on. Hmm, it does make sense that they could launch torpedoes underwater. I think I'll go with them being in the process of submerging because they really wanted their escape run to be safe but underwater endurance was relatively limited. Or there were other reasons, of course... And yes, the no survivors is for a very good story-based reason (So, you obviously look Japanese, speak with a Japanese accent, but insist that you're Danish?) Battlecruiser Geloof, November 24, 1914Dearest Jakoba, What you write about the casualties the Germans are suffering indeed looks terrible, and there is reason to believe that the German emperor would instead be understating the number, to seek to entice us to an alliance. And please, don’t let yourself be swayed by kind words of cooperation. The nature of great powers is very simple, and none can be trusted to have our sense of honour, given to us by our faith. The number of dead from the cowardly attack on David en Goliath has risen to twenty-three as several men have died from their injuries. Your speculations concerning the nature of the attack make sense, but we need evidence. The divers haven’t been able to find much yet due to poor weather in the Channel. We have sent out a message that any submarine vessel that is sighted will be destroyed on sight. Actions such as these simply can’t be allowed and we have to protect ourselves. Furthermore, the decision has been made to start a system of convoys for our shipping, to secure it should war break out. Fortunately, the battle line has been joined by Revolutie and in the Americas, Republiek and Repressie have been commissioned. Repressie, Leeuwin, Vreede, Oliphant, and Pacificatie along with attending destroyers are being sent to reinforce the fleet at Kanarië, to strengthen it should war come to our shores. A more secure connection to the North American front has been achieved, and much more is known now. A full division of Venda has been moved to New York, to hold onto the area and to expand our local holdings. There have been a few small attacks by the North Americans, but nothing sufficient in strength to concern our holding of the area. Several older battleships remain to provide heavy artillery should the need arise. The prize convoy has reached Mauritsstad and engineers will prepare their report on the state of the ships and how useful they will be. They will also report on how quickly our ships can be repaired. In the Far East, admiral Oude Luttinkhuis has fought a battle off Yakushima, where he engaged a Japanese squadron. The enemy was driven off, and at least three enemy old-fashioned battleships were sunk. He will soon press on to liberate Nagasaki and avenge Karel’s death as well as our nation’s honour. Your loving father, Johan Rots Berlin, November 27, 1914Dear Father, Recent events are most worrying. I have spoken to Mrs Gerard who seems to be a little calmer towards me now, although I still felt some resentment. She said that her nation wouldn’t make peace because they haven’t been beaten, and even told me that they would soon evict us from New York. In turn, I told her that I see this war as an unfortunate event and that we do not seek to do any further damage and regret the loss of life and property that it has led to. I told her that we are open to opening negotiations, but she said that that would never happen. To be honest, it was almost frightening to see the fire in her eyes. I presume that it could be because of the loss of her son, but somewhere, I fear that it is more. We’re not yet in a position to force the North americans to see sense, and if they prove wiling to bear sacrifice, as is to be expected of a protestant people, they won’t give in easily. Sir Edward has denied any English involvement whatsoever with the attack on David en Goliath, and said that he would suspect the Germans. I am starting to feel confused about what’s happening. I have also received word about the investigation in England, there, nothing substantial could be found, although, of course, a lack of cooperation might very well be the reason for that. With the Germans, it’s the same. Nevertheless, I have heard from the English about our war with Japan. They have been told that the Japanese have indeed lost several ships, most of them older battleships they had taken from the Russians, but also that one of their two modern battleships has suffered extensive damage. They claim that we have lost four modern battleships, which does seem rather unlikely to me, especially because their ambassador has reported that our men have taken several islands by storm. I have also been told that there has been a revolt against the Belgians in Central Africa, the colony they call the Congo. People are appalled because there have been terrible atrocities against the white rulers and I have been told that we will be sending an expedition to restore order and take over rulership. Naturally, I discussed it with the chancellor and have proposed that we would take over stewardship over the colony, and that in 1919, an international convention would be held to decide on its future ownership. This proposal had been approved by The Hague and they have also informed other great powers about this. Elsbeth, the new friend I wrote you about, had some terrible news to offer as well. It seems that her brother Konrad has been unjured in battle against the French, although he writes that it is only a minor injury and that he remains in his position. It seems that he has been given a promotion because of heavy casualties to the officers of his cavalry regiment. She however has been kind enough to move into the embassy, bringing me much relief because there now are several ladies I can speak to about the simpler parts of life. Your loving daughter, Jakoba
Raunchel
Interesting case of fog of war with regards to events in Japan. Guessing that the report of several islands taken by storm would refer to relatively minor ones, possibly including Tsushima or say the chain of islands between Taiwan and Japan is more likely, given the power of the Japanese army and their close proximity to their bases. As you say Japan only has 2 Kongo class BCs at the moment so if one has been badly damaged that would be a significant loss. Could also see significant Dutch losses or possibly more likely damage because the Japanese will have a lot of light vessels for attacking the invaders and possibly also some damage from minefields and coastal guns. Not to mention it sounds like the Dutch were drastically underestimating their opponents. Have to see what the state of play is when we get the actual facts. Can't see them getting Nagasaki back any time soon as the Japanese will fight hard for it and you could see further Dutch naval ships lost/damaged because they will be continually vulnerable to attack at any point. Do they have any secure port at this stage nearer than Taiwan?
The US does tend to go for all or nothing wars when their attacked so there's definitely going to be a lot of fighting there, especially given the sort of demands the Dutch were talking about. However the Americans have relatively little capacity for real military offensive in the short and to a degree the medium term. As such I think its going to be a bloody mess.
Are the Venda the black colonial units? That is likely to prompt a bad reaction in much of the US given racial feeling at the time and given the contempt them seem to be held in by at least a fair number of Dutch their caught between a rock and a hard place.
I can see the Dutch seeking to take over the Belgium Congo but I wonder why their talking about 1919 before an international convention on the issue?
Anyway a good update and the confusion and conflict continues to grow.
Steve
The Japanese business indeed is difficult to follow. The Dutch don't trust radio for important messages and don't have quick secure lines. The Japanese do (through Russia), but they have plenty of reason to not be entirely honest. The British can also use their diplomatic cables, but they know that the Russians are listening (and the French, who were really good at that sort of thing). What actually happened will be explored in more detail later. The islands are some of the islands south of Japan, mostly to establish forward bases. Their closest serious port is Formosa, so that indeed is an issue. The Venda indeed are black colonial units, recruited from the Venda people (who took the place of the Zulu in our timeline). The Venda are renowned for ferocity in battle and all those 'warrior race' things. It indeed will have a political impact in the USA, but not a purely negative one. Concerning Congo, Jakoba proposed to hold it in a few years so peace could have been restored there and in Europe, allowing the great powers to meet peacefully. Of course, the secondary idea is that it gives them time to cement control and establish control on the ground. Oh! And before I forget it, I have added portraits of Jakoba and Johan to the first post.
Well Johan's dress uniform looks almost 18thC. I don't know enough about OTL fashion in 1914 to comment on Jakoba's clothing but does look very formal, which would fit in with what we're hearing about their culture.
Jakoba's clothing is more conservative than would have been the norm at the time. At this time, the fashion was to wear things with a slighly tighter fit above the hips but flowing below it. Colours also tended to white or pastels. At least, for the higher classes of course. Below that, fashion was a little more complicated. The elements that are really off for the time are the hat (the tendency was for broader looser ones, or none at all), the high collar would also be seen as strange as the neck tended to be free and some cleavage could even be displayed. The full shoulders would be considered a bit old-fashioned. The jacket would of course also be an oddity, giving her a slightly unladylike appearance. Overall, most people would assume Jakoba to be a widow. I'm sorry for the detail, but fashion is my main source of income. Johan indeed wears a slightly old-fashioned uniform, which I thought would be fitting given that it is another state and the uniforms shouldn't be in an entirely identical style. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Dec 10, 2018 21:56:26 GMT
Raunchel
Many thanks and I take your point that black troops fighting firecely for the Dutch might persuade the Americans to permit their own blacks to fight for them, as they did in their civil war.
Also for clarifying on the situation in the Congo.
Steve
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raunchel
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Post by raunchel on Dec 11, 2018 9:24:21 GMT
Raunchel Many thanks and I take your point that black troops fighting firecely for the Dutch might persuade the Americans to permit their own blacks to fight for them, as they did in their civil war. Also for clarifying on the situation in the Congo. Steve The quality of Dutch black troops will indeed have its infliuence, and they will be used as a source of propaganda too of course. The Americans however were quite bad with their black troops at this time, and it might be a bit harder for them to be recruited now. |
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raunchel
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Post by raunchel on Dec 11, 2018 9:24:44 GMT
Battlecruiser Geloof, November 30, 1914
Dearest Jakoba,
It does me good to hear that you have more women around you, but I do wonder, what is her background? It seems that her brother is an officer, which seems to be somewhat better, but you have to be careful with who you associate with. Your reputation is your most important asset and it is easily spoiled.
The American woman is trying to show you bluster, and besides, she’s only a woman. She wouldn’t know any better than to believe what the men around her are saying. I am convinced that they will be forced to sue for peace soon, especially now that our men are pushing south along the coastal plain, and have occupied the cities of Newark and Trenton.
In the Japanese War, it has been reported that Oude Luttinkhuis has led a second naval engagement before he reached Nagasaki. Because of the number of enemy forces, he lacked the troops to force a landing there, but has put the enemy under fire.
The government is starting to believe that we will need more men than we currently have available, and there now are voices calling for the recruitment of coloureds into special divisions, and perhaps even give them a fraction of the vote. Can you believe such nonsense? They don’t see that our martial spirit will prevail, especially when compared with our great industrial power. I pray that they won’t taint the navy by allowing such elements into our fleet.
Due to a lull in the weather, our divers have been able to locate parts of the sunk submarine and will soon begin the work to salvage any evidence that can be found. I have ordered a brief rest for the fleet, to be fully ready when war is declared when we know who was guilty of the attack on us.
From Mauritsstad, we have heard that the captured ships use different measurements from our own, so any parts will have to be produced specifically for them. That is an issue that can be overcome, but a greater issue will be that things like ammunition will also have to be produced to these standards. Quite some work will have to be done to change their guns. There has also been another most interesting discovery that you probably don’t care about, but it seems that of the American ships that were still under construction, the armour was unevenly divided, almost completely focused on vital areas while leaving others unprotected.
Your mother has written that she will soon be returning from Ameland, but she isn’t quite certain when that will be.
Your loving father,
Johan Rots
Berlin, December 3, 1914
Dear Father,
Elsbeth’s father is an officer in the army, which has allowed her an excellent education. Her family is devoted to the country, which, to be honest, they are taking a bit far. But I presume that that’s mere bluster.
I am happy that the North American offensives are going well, but I fear that, despite the lack of North American soldiers, there will be significant needs of manpower and materials that would be better employed elsewhere. In that regard, recruiting coloureds is an understandable idea, but I fear that it will come at significant costs. The Equalists will see it as a way for them to profit further, and such people should be kept away from the reigns of government.
Concerning the Japanese, I have received an unofficial invitation from the Japanese minister’s wife for a meeting. It came through Karen and, despite my doubts, I decided to attend. We met in the Swedish embassy, where the Japanese ambassador also was present. Unfortunately, Uncle Sytze was too busy to attend, leaving the task to me. That however had the advantage of nothing being official.
The conversation lasted the whole afternoon, which intervened with my original plans to teach Elsbeth and Karen ice-skating, but duty always comes first. They told me that they would be interested in reaching a settlement. Naturally, I said that we would require the return of Nagasaki and several other concessions. To that, they revealed that they hold our citizens prisoner, and swore that no harm had come to them.
Naturally, it is vital that they are retrieved, but we can’t just give in to such hostage-taking. I however admitted that such things could help us reach an eventual settlement. To them, returning us Nagasaki however appears to be a political impossibility. Given our other commitments, I believe that we would be better served by not committing to taking the whole country, if only because they seem to have a large and strong army.
We spoke purely unofficially of course, it wasn’t a meeting between ambassadors. This allowed me to make a proposal that could perhaps allow them to make peace on a political level. They would give us Korea, the southern islands that we have taken, and their Chinese territories. In exchange, we would let them have Nagasaki. There would still have to be reparations of course, and, depending on the state of our prisoners, we would demand the handing over of those responsible for abuses. My mention of naval disarmament was met by surprise and shock, while the idea of the kind of trade agreements that we always impose almost had them leave.
Fortunately, I could restore calm by mentioning the plight of the coloureds in Nagasaki, as well as the convert parts of the population. They seemingly had quite some dislike for them, and my idea for a population exchange with the islands that we are occupying was considered to be acceptable, should we come to an agreement on the other issues.
In general, I believe that the Japanese will not give in very easily. They appear a much more tenacious people in this world, and have immense pride. They actually said that they want Formosa to be handed over to them, along with the islands north of it. Such a thing very simply is unacceptable.
Because of what is happening in the Channel, I have taken preparations to have all documents destroyed quickly, van Speyk is staying with the papers and codes at all times, just in case something happens. Instructions about such things have also been given to other missions in other parts of the world.
Your loving daughter,
Jakoba
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All too often in many countries.