stevep
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Post by stevep on Dec 6, 2018 11:26:17 GMT
Battlecruiser Geloof, November 12, 1914Dearest Jakoba, Happy birthday! I can still remember you when you were born, a mere twenty-one years ago. I had never imagined that you would have graced our newspapers and performed such duties for your country. I’m also happy to see you in correspondence with a fine young man, and hope that you will find someone suitable for marriage. Please, don’t worry yourself over your responsibility towards your mother. She is in good hands and she herself has told me that she is proud of what you are doing and all the responsibilities you are taking. She is enjoying the cool sea air and has written me that she has enjoyed the storms, feeling like the wind has taken her worries away. The English weakness is one we should indeed keep in mind, but it is one we also suffer from. You shouldn’t forget that the majority of our food comes from abroad, and I fear that we won’t be able to lean on European suppliers should war come. That means that it will be vital to quickly destroy the English fleet, should the need come. Word from the Americas is that Wolters has apparently not withdrawn completely from New York, but has instead ordered more troops to be delivered there, in order to hold the city to force the North Americans to sue for terms. Personally, I believe that it is a good thing to hold enemy territory, but fear that it is too distant to hold in the face of a nation with tens of millions of inhabitants. Admiral Oude Luttinkhuis has moved north to Japan, but we don’t yet have word about his findings. I pray for your good health and that of those poor people there. Your loving father, Johan Rots Berlin, November 15, 1914Dear Father, Thank you for your kind words. I know that I don’t deserve them, but they still warm my heart. I’m certain that you heard about the good news that came as the most welcome gift on my birthday, the Chilean government finally seeing reality and asking for terms. I pray that the wars in the Americas can soon come to an end. The celebration was wonderful. Everyone who matters in the city was here, including the emperor and several princes. One of them seemed besotted and I presume had had a bit too much to drink, and actually asked me to marry him! Naturally, I refused as politely as I could. There however is something that is far more worrying. Uncle Sytze was told that our embassy in Madrid has been able to obtain certain documents from the German naval attaché, through his mistress. It’s painful that such methods have to be used, but it seems that this naval attaché held documents pointing to German involvement in the attack on our fleet. It seems strange to me, unbelievable even, if only because their emperor doesn’t seem to be a good liar, and he would have to know about such things. Naturally, I have made enquiries about these revelations, without drawing attention of course. I have also briefly spoken to our own military attachés about this, but at least van der Bilt seems to find this believable. I personally have been unable to obtain any kind of supporting evidence. I have also had the good fortune of making a new friend. Together with Karen, I attended a lecture on women’s education. There, I met with a young woman named Elsbeth, who was very excited to meet me. She told me that she was one of the first women to achieve her doctorate in Germany, and has a deep interest in politics, leading to an excellent conversation for the three of us. What truly surprised me however is that she actually speaks a little Dutch! It however seems that there is far less demand now for lectures, and given our understaffed nature and the incredibly workload Karen is under, I decided to offer Elsbeth a position in helping me in my many tasks. Of course, not the sensitive parts, but there are so many things that have to be done. Your faithful daughter, Jakoba
Raunchel
Well points as I notice them.
a) Johan is right that a successful attack to destroy the GF would be a big boost to the Dutch in any attack on Britain but the RN is a lot more prepared for such an attack than the USN was, especially given the example set so its going to be a lot more difficult to succeed. Don't know where the GF is based currently but had a quick look at my Jane's Fighting Ships of WWI however unfortunately it does detail fortifications, just using phases like well fortified. On a couple of naval sites so could ask for more detail. For instance doubt if it would be concentrated at Dover as while well fortified it states that the harbour could only hold 16BBs, 5 large cruisers [which would be what were called armoured or protected cruisers at the time] 7 counties 4 small cruisers and destroyers. As such it could only hold about half the full fleet if including pre-dreads. Plus its possibly too close to the potential war, has limited facilities for support and repair and has a strong tide that makes entrance/exit from the harbour when that's running. More probably I suspect Portsmouth as that's also an important shipyard. No fortifications mentioned for that but if none currently I bet their being put in place with speed.
b) At this stage, with the US in disarray and only a small army unprepared for a major war Wolters can hold most/all of New York but as Johan says its a long way from his bases so is going to be difficult to support and will likely play to the US strengths, such as they are at this point as a urban battle would be more favourable to a poorly organised army against a regular one. Also is he holding the population as well or allowing any who want to to flee? If he is holding them then under most rules of war he has some responsibility for feeding them which given the size of the city could be a problem. Depends on how much he is seeking to hold. Say part of Long Island and a couple of the smaller ones wouldn't be a big burden and he could be difficult to budge from there in the short term but if he goes for Manhattan and parts of the mainland that's potentially a lot of people.
Also I wonder what happened to a certain large lady in the event of a battle for the city? If she's been damaged it will further enrage the US and won't go down that well in Paris either, although admittedly they have other things on their mind currently.
c) Was this celebration Jakoba was mentioning for the Dutch victory, in which case it might be a bit surprising that so many high figures from the German empire are there? Could be less that diplomatic and damaging for future German - US relations. Or on the reported Germany victories in the east?
d) The reports of the Germans being responsible for the 'attack' on the Dutch fleet is a potentially very important bombshell. If true, or possibly more importantly its believed then it totally changes a lot. You could have the Dutch at war with Germany and allied to France and Russia! Which would also make the US and Japan kind of allies to Germany and I'm not sure what Britain would do other than stay out of it and build up the navy and coastal defences. I was assuming it was some accident escalated by paranoia on the Dutch side leading to the sinking of the other two ships. It could be true, or some skilled mis-information by a 3rd party. If true, which is the simplest option that I wouldn't be surprised if the Kaiser wouldn't know anything about it. Someone in the German navy possibly hoping to trigger a war between Britain and the Dutch to keep them both busy or possibly get the Dutch as allies to allow a flanking attack into France and get a combined fleet much more powerful than the RN. Would be very effective if it worked but potentially explosively as could be the case here. Might even be an action by someone in the Dutch navy to cover up the realisation their ship was sunk by accident and they grossely over-reacted but then you would expect them to try and frame Britain so this seems an unlikely option.
e) So Jakoba is expanding her social network. Although given that there are now questions over the behaviour of the Germans she could face criticism, including from her father, for taking a 2nd German woman into her pay to help out with her diplomatic role. Of course, while she is young and in some ways naive, Jakoba such consider, especially if Elsbeth is more than a friend, what seems to have happened to the German naval attaché in Spain.  I rather hope not for her sake as it could be both embarrassing for her and a great humiliation.
There are a hell of a lot of possible paths you can take here on the above issues and looking forward to seeing what develops.
Steve
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Dec 6, 2018 12:19:18 GMT
Raunchel Damned forgot one other point that could be a total game changer. Jakoba mentioned the Chileans were asking for terms. This raises the question of are the Dutch going to end up in control of the Chilean nitrate supplies? If so their got everybody with the exception of Germany over a barrel. Even Germany OTL had problems as they hadn't fully industrialised their Haber-Bosch production and had some short-falls in nitrate production in the 1st year of the war. This was despite capturing a sizeable stockpile when they took Antwerp which helped tided them over and won't be happening TTL so they could be having some problems for a while.
For everybody else it would be a lot more serious. Not sure how rapidly other powers developed synthetic ammonia and hence nitrate production but believe Britain got most of its nitrates from Chile during the war. Which might have been because of problems developing their own production or simply possibly because that was cheaper. However if the Dutch secure a monopoly then everybody is going to have to develop their own production ASAP or be very dependent on the goodwill of the Dutch, which would seem to be risky.
Steve
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Post by eurowatch on Dec 6, 2018 14:12:10 GMT
And that is also kind of the crux of the problem, as long as the Americans are not decisivly defeated on the battlefield they won't think they are defeated. Four years of constant Dutch raids and the navy either cowering in its ports or being constantly defeated Will prove nothing to the public aside from that the navy is incompetent. And when the government finally Agrees to at least some of the terms it Will spark an outrage, the United States are not defeated, so why should they pretend they are? In that kind of enviroment you Will get an American "stabbed in the back" myth. Ah, I see. While I don't think the Russians would be in good posistion even without the German reinforcements considering their backwardsness (at the beginning of the war they had two ambulances in the entire army) it makes sense that they would be in a worse posistion here.
That assumes that the US doesn't adapt. They won't be capable of building up a battlefleet capable of challenging the Dutch at sea in that period. Going really to take that long to get the 1st few new BBs in service. However they can do other things. Unless they come back quickly the Dutch are likely to find some more powerful defences for the main US ports, possibly including some of the 14" guns for the BBs that are no longer available. Properly positioned fortifications, unless there's a clear advantage in technology or training say, will virtually always defeat ships. Also if the Dutch ships are anything like OTL ones here their protection is mainly in the belt, against fairly horizonal fire, with relatively little deck or underwater protection. As such high angle shells as well as possibly having longer range can do a lot more damage.
Similarly while capital ships take a long time to build smaller ships don't and subs would seem an attractive option, both for helping defending US shores and taking the war to the enemy, which would make a blockade of the US a lot more difficult and also threaten both Dutch warships and their merchant trade. After such an attack and with the Dutch attacks on trade I can see very little opposition in the US to them implementing USW when they start getting the subs.
Another option is those new fangled flying machines. It only took 4 years OTL from unarmed scouts to Britain producing the 1st carriers and effective sea launched torpedo a/c and was planning an air-strike on the HSF. The US won't have the same level of army commitment as Britain and has a larger economy, probably a better tech base and definitely a greater incentive. Not saying you will see fleets of USN carriers driving the Dutch from the seas but land based air could further increase the costs of a blockade attempt, let alone raids within a year or two at most and a small carrier force by say 1917 could cause the Dutch a lot of problems on the high seas, especially since carriers are generally fairly speedy.
If the US is determined enough and given the shock of the attack and the nature of the Dutch attitude I think they will be, then in 2-3 years they could well be largely immune to Dutch attacks and causing a lot of problems for them in the Caribbean at least, as well as turning at least some of the new Dutch allies in the region. How far it goes from there would be difficult to tell.
Yes the Russians have their problems but this WWI is far more likely to play to their strengthens than their weaknesses. Fighting on the defensive to defend the homeland, with a lot of space to fall back into and the lower level of technology in the 1910s means that the sort of deep penetration attacks the Germans made in 1941/42 won't be possible so its going to be a long and bloody war with ever lengthening both front lines and for the Germans supply lines. Coupled with the gauge difference on the railways and a lot of wilderness for guerilla actions and there's only so far horse driven wagons can supply an army. The Germans will have the edge at 1st but things can definitely go pear shaped, especially if they overstretch themselves, which is almost certain if a limited war isn't fought.
While the loss of their battlefleet Will undoubtetly force the US to investigate alternative weapons, I think airships Will be more used instead of bombers. Since the Dutch Will be trying to come up With a defence against that I think they Will be the first to employ carriers instead of the Americans. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Dec 6, 2018 15:11:41 GMT
That assumes that the US doesn't adapt. They won't be capable of building up a battlefleet capable of challenging the Dutch at sea in that period. Going really to take that long to get the 1st few new BBs in service. However they can do other things. Unless they come back quickly the Dutch are likely to find some more powerful defences for the main US ports, possibly including some of the 14" guns for the BBs that are no longer available. Properly positioned fortifications, unless there's a clear advantage in technology or training say, will virtually always defeat ships. Also if the Dutch ships are anything like OTL ones here their protection is mainly in the belt, against fairly horizonal fire, with relatively little deck or underwater protection. As such high angle shells as well as possibly having longer range can do a lot more damage.
Similarly while capital ships take a long time to build smaller ships don't and subs would seem an attractive option, both for helping defending US shores and taking the war to the enemy, which would make a blockade of the US a lot more difficult and also threaten both Dutch warships and their merchant trade. After such an attack and with the Dutch attacks on trade I can see very little opposition in the US to them implementing USW when they start getting the subs.
Another option is those new fangled flying machines. It only took 4 years OTL from unarmed scouts to Britain producing the 1st carriers and effective sea launched torpedo a/c and was planning an air-strike on the HSF. The US won't have the same level of army commitment as Britain and has a larger economy, probably a better tech base and definitely a greater incentive. Not saying you will see fleets of USN carriers driving the Dutch from the seas but land based air could further increase the costs of a blockade attempt, let alone raids within a year or two at most and a small carrier force by say 1917 could cause the Dutch a lot of problems on the high seas, especially since carriers are generally fairly speedy.
If the US is determined enough and given the shock of the attack and the nature of the Dutch attitude I think they will be, then in 2-3 years they could well be largely immune to Dutch attacks and causing a lot of problems for them in the Caribbean at least, as well as turning at least some of the new Dutch allies in the region. How far it goes from there would be difficult to tell.
Yes the Russians have their problems but this WWI is far more likely to play to their strengthens than their weaknesses. Fighting on the defensive to defend the homeland, with a lot of space to fall back into and the lower level of technology in the 1910s means that the sort of deep penetration attacks the Germans made in 1941/42 won't be possible so its going to be a long and bloody war with ever lengthening both front lines and for the Germans supply lines. Coupled with the gauge difference on the railways and a lot of wilderness for guerilla actions and there's only so far horse driven wagons can supply an army. The Germans will have the edge at 1st but things can definitely go pear shaped, especially if they overstretch themselves, which is almost certain if a limited war isn't fought.
While the loss of their battlefleet Will undoubtetly force the US to investigate alternative weapons, I think airships Will be more used instead of bombers. Since the Dutch Will be trying to come up With a defence against that I think they Will be the first to employ carriers instead of the Americans.
I suspect the US will try both a/c and airships but the former has the greater long term potential. Although -if its already been discovered, the US has compared to others considerable supplies of helium, which might make airships safer, if with less lift.
The Dutch might develop carriers 1st but they have the largest fleet in the world so a lot of emphasis will be on maintaining that. Going to be a lot of vested interests in terms of career sailors, manufacturers and the like. The US and possibly others, including the UK, have incentives to try and find ways to counter the Dutch preponderance in 'traditional' weapons. Someone could establish a lead in a/c and CV technology but its likely not to last if it demonstrates actual usefulness in combat as it would be the focus of a new race. At least while there are several major naval powers either fighting or in tension and without all-most being exhausted by a long and bloody conflict. However because of their need to find some counter to Dutch attacks I would expect the US to probably make initial progress. Maintaining it could be another matter.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Dec 6, 2018 16:11:12 GMT
The Dutch might develop carriers 1st but they have the largest fleet in the world so a lot of emphasis will be on maintaining that.
I wonder if the United Kingdom will agree with that statement of you stevep , but in the other hand, the Republic did defeat the United States Navy ore is almost done with it, so the United Kingdom might think twice to go head to head with the Republican Navy. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Dec 6, 2018 18:54:31 GMT
The Dutch might develop carriers 1st but they have the largest fleet in the world so a lot of emphasis will be on maintaining that.
I wonder if the United Kingdom will agree with that statement of you stevep , but in the other hand, the Republic did defeat the United States Navy ore is almost done with it, so the United Kingdom might think twice to go head to head with the Republican Navy.
As I understand it the Dutch home fleet is a little smaller than the GF + Britain's pre-dreads. However virtually all the major warships are based in Britain. IIRC there were 2 or 3 I class BCs/DACs in the Med and another HMAS Australia in Australia and that's about it. The Dutch have substantial forces based in S America from the size of the forces attacking the US and also operating against Chile I would expect. They also had forces in S America and the Far East with a fleet being sent to fight the Japanese. Not sure of the size of the ship was it a potential suitor for Jakoba was lost on but that might have been an isolated capital ship or part of a small force].
As such while it would probably be unclear, unless Britain can get someone into the Dutch territories who can access details - which might simply be getting an equivalent of their Jane's in a public library - to Britain they know the Dutch have a substantial force and I'm pretty certain its larger than the RN, at least in capital ships, at this point. Probably in lighter vessels as well as they have a substantial empire to protect and the RN will have lost a fair number of those with all the bases that have gone. This does mean that Britain will be pushing new construction hard, and they have a lot on the way but they might also be looking at other options, especially if Fisher returns to the Admiralty. Although some of his ideas were dubious, such as Courageous/Glorious/Furious, he was also very forward looking in terms of other areas.
Steve
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raunchel
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Post by raunchel on Dec 6, 2018 19:11:59 GMT
And that is also kind of the crux of the problem, as long as the Americans are not decisivly defeated on the battlefield they won't think they are defeated. Four years of constant Dutch raids and the navy either cowering in its ports or being constantly defeated Will prove nothing to the public aside from that the navy is incompetent. And when the government finally Agrees to at least some of the terms it Will spark an outrage, the United States are not defeated, so why should they pretend they are? In that kind of enviroment you Will get an American "stabbed in the back" myth. Ah, I see. While I don't think the Russians would be in good posistion even without the German reinforcements considering their backwardsness (at the beginning of the war they had two ambulances in the entire army) it makes sense that they would be in a worse posistion here.
That assumes that the US doesn't adapt. They won't be capable of building up a battlefleet capable of challenging the Dutch at sea in that period. Going really to take that long to get the 1st few new BBs in service. However they can do other things. Unless they come back quickly the Dutch are likely to find some more powerful defences for the main US ports, possibly including some of the 14" guns for the BBs that are no longer available. Properly positioned fortifications, unless there's a clear advantage in technology or training say, will virtually always defeat ships. Also if the Dutch ships are anything like OTL ones here their protection is mainly in the belt, against fairly horizonal fire, with relatively little deck or underwater protection. As such high angle shells as well as possibly having longer range can do a lot more damage.
Similarly while capital ships take a long time to build smaller ships don't and subs would seem an attractive option, both for helping defending US shores and taking the war to the enemy, which would make a blockade of the US a lot more difficult and also threaten both Dutch warships and their merchant trade. After such an attack and with the Dutch attacks on trade I can see very little opposition in the US to them implementing USW when they start getting the subs.
Another option is those new fangled flying machines. It only took 4 years OTL from unarmed scouts to Britain producing the 1st carriers and effective sea launched torpedo a/c and was planning an air-strike on the HSF. The US won't have the same level of army commitment as Britain and has a larger economy, probably a better tech base and definitely a greater incentive. Not saying you will see fleets of USN carriers driving the Dutch from the seas but land based air could further increase the costs of a blockade attempt, let alone raids within a year or two at most and a small carrier force by say 1917 could cause the Dutch a lot of problems on the high seas, especially since carriers are generally fairly speedy.
If the US is determined enough and given the shock of the attack and the nature of the Dutch attitude I think they will be, then in 2-3 years they could well be largely immune to Dutch attacks and causing a lot of problems for them in the Caribbean at least, as well as turning at least some of the new Dutch allies in the region. How far it goes from there would be difficult to tell.
Yes the Russians have their problems but this WWI is far more likely to play to their strengthens than their weaknesses. Fighting on the defensive to defend the homeland, with a lot of space to fall back into and the lower level of technology in the 1910s means that the sort of deep penetration attacks the Germans made in 1941/42 won't be possible so its going to be a long and bloody war with ever lengthening both front lines and for the Germans supply lines. Coupled with the gauge difference on the railways and a lot of wilderness for guerilla actions and there's only so far horse driven wagons can supply an army. The Germans will have the edge at 1st but things can definitely go pear shaped, especially if they overstretch themselves, which is almost certain if a limited war isn't fought.
The Americans will have to do something, but fundamentally, light forces can't win the seas back. It can contest them and make things harder for the Dutch (and assorted others), but it won't lead to a victory or the ability to project serious forces. They indeed have guns available with nowhere to put them in terms of ships. Their most recent construction has been destroyed or dragged away, and they have been shown that they need better defenses (and to properly man them, but Congress will be a bit easier with the money now). They will indeed have to take another option than trying to build a new battleship fleet. They can't actually build that many at the same time (several yards got seriously smashed up), so they first have to construct new yards before they can actually build new ships. And battleships take quite some time to build. Added to that, ships need a cadre for the crew, and they just don't have that many trained people left. Lighter ships are easier to build given their resources, and will also be easier to man. That however will take some serious political decisions, which will take time (I'm still working out the politics. Let's just say that Wilson is a political zombie and that Congress (and the press) will be baying for blood). But rest assured, the Americans will be trying plenty of things and aren't out of the war yet. The Dutch have airplanes and have a few seaplane tenders in service. There are circles that want to go further, but they are bound by some conventions from their world in that regard. Of course, they will break them, but it has caused some issues in their naval aviation. At first, the American focus will be mostly defensive, they have to somehow protect their shores from new attacks and there is a lot of money available for crazy ideas. For the Russians, there are pluses and minuses. The big minus is that they're doing worse in terms of casualties and terrain held. They however aren't as overextended as they were, and the Germans and Austrians will soon encounter greater difficulties. That however doesn't mean that the mood in the Russian army is good. Battlecruiser Geloof, November 12, 1914Dearest Jakoba, Happy birthday! I can still remember you when you were born, a mere twenty-one years ago. I had never imagined that you would have graced our newspapers and performed such duties for your country. I’m also happy to see you in correspondence with a fine young man, and hope that you will find someone suitable for marriage. Please, don’t worry yourself over your responsibility towards your mother. She is in good hands and she herself has told me that she is proud of what you are doing and all the responsibilities you are taking. She is enjoying the cool sea air and has written me that she has enjoyed the storms, feeling like the wind has taken her worries away. The English weakness is one we should indeed keep in mind, but it is one we also suffer from. You shouldn’t forget that the majority of our food comes from abroad, and I fear that we won’t be able to lean on European suppliers should war come. That means that it will be vital to quickly destroy the English fleet, should the need come. Word from the Americas is that Wolters has apparently not withdrawn completely from New York, but has instead ordered more troops to be delivered there, in order to hold the city to force the North Americans to sue for terms. Personally, I believe that it is a good thing to hold enemy territory, but fear that it is too distant to hold in the face of a nation with tens of millions of inhabitants. Admiral Oude Luttinkhuis has moved north to Japan, but we don’t yet have word about his findings. I pray for your good health and that of those poor people there. Your loving father, Johan Rots Berlin, November 15, 1914Dear Father, Thank you for your kind words. I know that I don’t deserve them, but they still warm my heart. I’m certain that you heard about the good news that came as the most welcome gift on my birthday, the Chilean government finally seeing reality and asking for terms. I pray that the wars in the Americas can soon come to an end. The celebration was wonderful. Everyone who matters in the city was here, including the emperor and several princes. One of them seemed besotted and I presume had had a bit too much to drink, and actually asked me to marry him! Naturally, I refused as politely as I could. There however is something that is far more worrying. Uncle Sytze was told that our embassy in Madrid has been able to obtain certain documents from the German naval attaché, through his mistress. It’s painful that such methods have to be used, but it seems that this naval attaché held documents pointing to German involvement in the attack on our fleet. It seems strange to me, unbelievable even, if only because their emperor doesn’t seem to be a good liar, and he would have to know about such things. Naturally, I have made enquiries about these revelations, without drawing attention of course. I have also briefly spoken to our own military attachés about this, but at least van der Bilt seems to find this believable. I personally have been unable to obtain any kind of supporting evidence. I have also had the good fortune of making a new friend. Together with Karen, I attended a lecture on women’s education. There, I met with a young woman named Elsbeth, who was very excited to meet me. She told me that she was one of the first women to achieve her doctorate in Germany, and has a deep interest in politics, leading to an excellent conversation for the three of us. What truly surprised me however is that she actually speaks a little Dutch! It however seems that there is far less demand now for lectures, and given our understaffed nature and the incredibly workload Karen is under, I decided to offer Elsbeth a position in helping me in my many tasks. Of course, not the sensitive parts, but there are so many things that have to be done. Your faithful daughter, Jakoba
Raunchel
Well points as I notice them.
a) Johan is right that a successful attack to destroy the GF would be a big boost to the Dutch in any attack on Britain but the RN is a lot more prepared for such an attack than the USN was, especially given the example set so its going to be a lot more difficult to succeed. Don't know where the GF is based currently but had a quick look at my Jane's Fighting Ships of WWI however unfortunately it does detail fortifications, just using phases like well fortified. On a couple of naval sites so could ask for more detail. For instance doubt if it would be concentrated at Dover as while well fortified it states that the harbour could only hold 16BBs, 5 large cruisers [which would be what were called armoured or protected cruisers at the time] 7 counties 4 small cruisers and destroyers. As such it could only hold about half the full fleet if including pre-dreads. Plus its possibly too close to the potential war, has limited facilities for support and repair and has a strong tide that makes entrance/exit from the harbour when that's running. More probably I suspect Portsmouth as that's also an important shipyard. No fortifications mentioned for that but if none currently I bet their being put in place with speed.
b) At this stage, with the US in disarray and only a small army unprepared for a major war Wolters can hold most/all of New York but as Johan says its a long way from his bases so is going to be difficult to support and will likely play to the US strengths, such as they are at this point as a urban battle would be more favourable to a poorly organised army against a regular one. Also is he holding the population as well or allowing any who want to to flee? If he is holding them then under most rules of war he has some responsibility for feeding them which given the size of the city could be a problem. Depends on how much he is seeking to hold. Say part of Long Island and a couple of the smaller ones wouldn't be a big burden and he could be difficult to budge from there in the short term but if he goes for Manhattan and parts of the mainland that's potentially a lot of people.
Also I wonder what happened to a certain large lady in the event of a battle for the city? If she's been damaged it will further enrage the US and won't go down that well in Paris either, although admittedly they have other things on their mind currently.
c) Was this celebration Jakoba was mentioning for the Dutch victory, in which case it might be a bit surprising that so many high figures from the German empire are there? Could be less that diplomatic and damaging for future German - US relations. Or on the reported Germany victories in the east?
d) The reports of the Germans being responsible for the 'attack' on the Dutch fleet is a potentially very important bombshell. If true, or possibly more importantly its believed then it totally changes a lot. You could have the Dutch at war with Germany and allied to France and Russia! Which would also make the US and Japan kind of allies to Germany and I'm not sure what Britain would do other than stay out of it and build up the navy and coastal defences. I was assuming it was some accident escalated by paranoia on the Dutch side leading to the sinking of the other two ships. It could be true, or some skilled mis-information by a 3rd party. If true, which is the simplest option that I wouldn't be surprised if the Kaiser wouldn't know anything about it. Someone in the German navy possibly hoping to trigger a war between Britain and the Dutch to keep them both busy or possibly get the Dutch as allies to allow a flanking attack into France and get a combined fleet much more powerful than the RN. Would be very effective if it worked but potentially explosively as could be the case here. Might even be an action by someone in the Dutch navy to cover up the realisation their ship was sunk by accident and they grossely over-reacted but then you would expect them to try and frame Britain so this seems an unlikely option.
e) So Jakoba is expanding her social network. Although given that there are now questions over the behaviour of the Germans she could face criticism, including from her father, for taking a 2nd German woman into her pay to help out with her diplomatic role. Of course, while she is young and in some ways naive, Jakoba such consider, especially if Elsbeth is more than a friend, what seems to have happened to the German naval attaché in Spain. I rather hope not for her sake as it could be both embarrassing for her and a great humiliation.
There are a hell of a lot of possible paths you can take here on the above issues and looking forward to seeing what develops.
Steve
a) It will indeed not be possible to British bases, and the Dutch by now know that. They can however do other things to attempt to force the GF to battle. Both sides know that they have to deal with the other navy if it comes to war, or they'll literally starve. From what I know, the GF moved to Scapa quite early, but they have now moved south. I wasn't entirely sure about where to put them, but they're not going to split up too much. That way lies great danger after all. I decided to put them in Portsmouth for now. It's at a safe distance and is very hard to approach undetected (the Channel isn't all that large). It also puts them right between the Dutch and their main trade route, which always is a good location. Portsmouth also has the advantage that there are other ports that can be used if there are capacity issues nearby (such as Southhampton). This is close enough to be able to link up without much issue. b) Wolters has taken Sandy Hook, Staten Island, parts of Long Island, Manhattan, Jersey City, and a few other bits and pieces. The civilians are a bit of an issue (especially because far too many of them are armed and are acting as francs-tireurs, with all the issues that entails (and some of them being hung). His plan isn't clear at the moment, but let's just say that there are things that he wants done. c) The celebration was for her birthday. She organised a big party for it, mostly as a way to meet with people. d) The truth of the matter is the issue yes. Von Krohn's mistress has found some serious bombshells to hand to the Dutch. This is something I've been working on for a while, and I'll have some more complications building up soon. e) Elsbeth is another very interesting person I found. One of the first women to gain a doctorate in Germany, never married, became a university lecturer after the war with close connections to the SA. Jakoba is building up her own networks as well, but she indeed is young and might occasionally make mistakes. Raunchel Damned forgot one other point that could be a total game changer. Jakoba mentioned the Chileans were asking for terms. This raises the question of are the Dutch going to end up in control of the Chilean nitrate supplies? If so their got everybody with the exception of Germany over a barrel. Even Germany OTL had problems as they hadn't fully industrialised their Haber-Bosch production and had some short-falls in nitrate production in the 1st year of the war. This was despite capturing a sizeable stockpile when they took Antwerp which helped tided them over and won't be happening TTL so they could be having some problems for a while.
For everybody else it would be a lot more serious. Not sure how rapidly other powers developed synthetic ammonia and hence nitrate production but believe Britain got most of its nitrates from Chile during the war. Which might have been because of problems developing their own production or simply possibly because that was cheaper. However if the Dutch secure a monopoly then everybody is going to have to develop their own production ASAP or be very dependent on the goodwill of the Dutch, which would seem to be risky.
Steve
And that's another piece of the puzzle in this mess.The nitrates are the single most vital resource with only one serious source. You can probably guess what one of the things the Dutch will be demanding of Chile will be. Bosch had filed the patents for BASF in 1908, so they are available, but the problem is that it takes time to build a proper chemical plant, especially because other companies will first have to copy the work already done before they can scale things up. It took BASF (with some of the best chemists of the world working for it) five years to get it working on an industrial scale. I think that in wartime this can be accelerated a little because of the rather pressing need, but it will take time to get even a few running. Other options are extracting nitrogen from coke, but that was fairly limited and relatively expensive. Scaling it up would be very hard. Worldwide, it was used for about a quarter million tonnes, far too little for the worldwide demand. Of course, the Birkeland-Eyde process can also be used, but that takes enormous amounts of electricity and could only really be used next to hydroplants. The US for instance used roughly half a million tonnes per year. The first plant BASF got online produced 20 per day. They need other sources and will need it soon.
That assumes that the US doesn't adapt. They won't be capable of building up a battlefleet capable of challenging the Dutch at sea in that period. Going really to take that long to get the 1st few new BBs in service. However they can do other things. Unless they come back quickly the Dutch are likely to find some more powerful defences for the main US ports, possibly including some of the 14" guns for the BBs that are no longer available. Properly positioned fortifications, unless there's a clear advantage in technology or training say, will virtually always defeat ships. Also if the Dutch ships are anything like OTL ones here their protection is mainly in the belt, against fairly horizonal fire, with relatively little deck or underwater protection. As such high angle shells as well as possibly having longer range can do a lot more damage.
Similarly while capital ships take a long time to build smaller ships don't and subs would seem an attractive option, both for helping defending US shores and taking the war to the enemy, which would make a blockade of the US a lot more difficult and also threaten both Dutch warships and their merchant trade. After such an attack and with the Dutch attacks on trade I can see very little opposition in the US to them implementing USW when they start getting the subs.
Another option is those new fangled flying machines. It only took 4 years OTL from unarmed scouts to Britain producing the 1st carriers and effective sea launched torpedo a/c and was planning an air-strike on the HSF. The US won't have the same level of army commitment as Britain and has a larger economy, probably a better tech base and definitely a greater incentive. Not saying you will see fleets of USN carriers driving the Dutch from the seas but land based air could further increase the costs of a blockade attempt, let alone raids within a year or two at most and a small carrier force by say 1917 could cause the Dutch a lot of problems on the high seas, especially since carriers are generally fairly speedy.
If the US is determined enough and given the shock of the attack and the nature of the Dutch attitude I think they will be, then in 2-3 years they could well be largely immune to Dutch attacks and causing a lot of problems for them in the Caribbean at least, as well as turning at least some of the new Dutch allies in the region. How far it goes from there would be difficult to tell.
Yes the Russians have their problems but this WWI is far more likely to play to their strengthens than their weaknesses. Fighting on the defensive to defend the homeland, with a lot of space to fall back into and the lower level of technology in the 1910s means that the sort of deep penetration attacks the Germans made in 1941/42 won't be possible so its going to be a long and bloody war with ever lengthening both front lines and for the Germans supply lines. Coupled with the gauge difference on the railways and a lot of wilderness for guerilla actions and there's only so far horse driven wagons can supply an army. The Germans will have the edge at 1st but things can definitely go pear shaped, especially if they overstretch themselves, which is almost certain if a limited war isn't fought.
While the loss of their battlefleet Will undoubtetly force the US to investigate alternative weapons, I think airships Will be more used instead of bombers. Since the Dutch Will be trying to come up With a defence against that I think they Will be the first to employ carriers instead of the Americans. Bombers will indeed take quite some time, and at least for the time being, American aircraft will be based mostly on land. While the loss of their battlefleet Will undoubtetly force the US to investigate alternative weapons, I think airships Will be more used instead of bombers. Since the Dutch Will be trying to come up With a defence against that I think they Will be the first to employ carriers instead of the Americans.
I suspect the US will try both a/c and airships but the former has the greater long term potential. Although -if its already been discovered, the US has compared to others considerable supplies of helium, which might make airships safer, if with less lift.
The Dutch might develop carriers 1st but they have the largest fleet in the world so a lot of emphasis will be on maintaining that. Going to be a lot of vested interests in terms of career sailors, manufacturers and the like. The US and possibly others, including the UK, have incentives to try and find ways to counter the Dutch preponderance in 'traditional' weapons. Someone could establish a lead in a/c and CV technology but its likely not to last if it demonstrates actual usefulness in combat as it would be the focus of a new race. At least while there are several major naval powers either fighting or in tension and without all-most being exhausted by a long and bloody conflict. However because of their need to find some counter to Dutch attacks I would expect the US to probably make initial progress. Maintaining it could be another matter.
There is some internal debate about the role of aircraft, and once they show more promise the battlelines will be drawn. There are the settled big-gun admirals (such as Johan), but there also are innovators. After all, in our world, the RN also was quite innovative despite its leading position as a naval power. It remains a fairly technical service, unlike the army for instance. The Dutch might develop carriers 1st but they have the largest fleet in the world so a lot of emphasis will be on maintaining that.
I wonder if the United Kingdom will agree with that statement of you stevep , but in the other hand, the Republic did defeat the United States Navy ore is almost done with it, so the United Kingdom might think twice to go head to head with the Republican Navy. The UK has clues that the Dutch have the largest battlefleet in the world. They did see some of the maneuvers, although that was with less dreadnoughts than the Grand Fleet has, but they now also know that there is at least a seriously-sized modern fleet in the Americas, and soon they will have definite proof of the Dutch having a third fleet active in the far east. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Dec 6, 2018 22:00:58 GMT
Raunchel
Damned that's bad news about the Chilean nitrates, but too much to hope they won't miss it. Would they also force the Chileans to cancel existing contracts? Possibly as although that would upset a lot of people there's only really Britain of the major powers not already in a major war. Plus it means everybody else would be very vulnerable to being out of explosives pretty soon so they have everybody other than the Germans [possibly] over a barrel. Although potentially Britain could isolate the Dutch homeland in the event of war, which would cause it problems, that wouldn't affect the Dutch forces in the colonies and they could reinforce the homeland.
The other option, which most powers will probably have to do for a while at least is revert to black powder explosives. Their markedly less effective and also have problems with fouling barrels and with the smoke both making units more visible and less able to see targets themselves. Especially bad for armies but not great for ships either.
Mind you, you have a complex plot with a lot going on so things could change drastically fairly quickly.
Didn't realise that Elsbeth was an historical person.
Steve
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raunchel
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Post by raunchel on Dec 6, 2018 22:32:31 GMT
Raunchel
Damned that's bad news about the Chilean nitrates, but too much to hope they won't miss it. Would they also force the Chileans to cancel existing contracts? Possibly as although that would upset a lot of people there's only really Britain of the major powers not already in a major war. Plus it means everybody else would be very vulnerable to being out of explosives pretty soon so they have everybody other than the Germans [possibly] over a barrel. Although potentially Britain could isolate the Dutch homeland in the event of war, which would cause it problems, that wouldn't affect the Dutch forces in the colonies and they could reinforce the homeland.
The other option, which most powers will probably have to do for a while at least is revert to black powder explosives. Their markedly less effective and also have problems with fouling barrels and with the smoke both making units more visible and less able to see targets themselves. Especially bad for armies but not great for ships either.
Mind you, you have a complex plot with a lot going on so things could change drastically fairly quickly.
Didn't realise that Elsbeth was an historical person.
Steve
The nitrates were an inevitable part. Not only because of the location, but also because chemistry is my original field. I couldn't leave out the opportunity to play around with that. The Dutch will also force the Chileans to abandon old contracts, especially long-term ones, and will be seizing quite a bit as 'reparations'. The Chileans also get something in return of course, they will be protected from anyone who might want to attack them... Britain could indeed fight back, but they're not the only ones who could. There still are nitrates available through other sources, and aside from that, there is such a thing as rationing. It will hurt agriculture and perhaps some areas of the war effort, but it can be done. Black powder could be used, but modern weapons won't work very well with it and that would lead to massive issues. There are real design differences between black powder and later firearms. One big effect for artillery would be in term of range. And I don't think that anyone wants to be outranged by the other side in an artillery duel. Everyone from our world that I mention by name is from this world. Of course, many are very minor people about whom very little is known, but that's not too much of an issue. I'm not expecting them to be reading this! |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Dec 6, 2018 22:49:52 GMT
Raunchel
Damned that's bad news about the Chilean nitrates, but too much to hope they won't miss it. Would they also force the Chileans to cancel existing contracts? Possibly as although that would upset a lot of people there's only really Britain of the major powers not already in a major war. Plus it means everybody else would be very vulnerable to being out of explosives pretty soon so they have everybody other than the Germans [possibly] over a barrel. Although potentially Britain could isolate the Dutch homeland in the event of war, which would cause it problems, that wouldn't affect the Dutch forces in the colonies and they could reinforce the homeland.
The other option, which most powers will probably have to do for a while at least is revert to black powder explosives. Their markedly less effective and also have problems with fouling barrels and with the smoke both making units more visible and less able to see targets themselves. Especially bad for armies but not great for ships either.
Mind you, you have a complex plot with a lot going on so things could change drastically fairly quickly.
Didn't realise that Elsbeth was an historical person.
Steve
The nitrates were an inevitable part. Not only because of the location, but also because chemistry is my original field. I couldn't leave out the opportunity to play around with that. The Dutch will also force the Chileans to abandon old contracts, especially long-term ones, and will be seizing quite a bit as 'reparations'. The Chileans also get something in return of course, they will be protected from anyone who might want to attack them... Britain could indeed fight back, but they're not the only ones who could. There still are nitrates available through other sources, and aside from that, there is such a thing as rationing. It will hurt agriculture and perhaps some areas of the war effort, but it can be done. Black powder could be used, but modern weapons won't work very well with it and that would lead to massive issues. There are real design differences between black powder and later firearms. One big effect for artillery would be in term of range. And I don't think that anyone wants to be outranged by the other side in an artillery duel. Everyone from our world that I mention by name is from this world. Of course, many are very minor people about whom very little is known, but that's not too much of an issue. I'm not expecting them to be reading this!
Raunchel
Thanks for the quick response. Not sure if I want Britain to try and form a league to oppose the Dutch - as you say there are a number of other powers likely to be upset by the Dutch actions in Chile - or do nothing for the moment in the hope [for me as they don't know about it] that the Dutch and Germans end up at war. The other problem is that if they did seek to monopolise the supply it makes a CP victory in their war almost certain as France and Russia would have serious problems.
I knew there are other sources. IIRC I remember reading where about 1850 or so the US was trying to grab every nitrate island they could although it was largely used for fertiliser then. However didn't think any of them were significant in this time period. However that would definitely be useful as would a major bid to get a Haber capacity in their own country which is the long term solution. Think there was some attempt about this period by the US to develop the energy intensive method using power from Niagara Falls which they might try and develop but that would probably be a limited solution.
Didn't realise all the people were from real life. That's a hell of a task there.
Steve
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raunchel
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Post by raunchel on Dec 6, 2018 23:05:04 GMT
The nitrates were an inevitable part. Not only because of the location, but also because chemistry is my original field. I couldn't leave out the opportunity to play around with that. The Dutch will also force the Chileans to abandon old contracts, especially long-term ones, and will be seizing quite a bit as 'reparations'. The Chileans also get something in return of course, they will be protected from anyone who might want to attack them... Britain could indeed fight back, but they're not the only ones who could. There still are nitrates available through other sources, and aside from that, there is such a thing as rationing. It will hurt agriculture and perhaps some areas of the war effort, but it can be done. Black powder could be used, but modern weapons won't work very well with it and that would lead to massive issues. There are real design differences between black powder and later firearms. One big effect for artillery would be in term of range. And I don't think that anyone wants to be outranged by the other side in an artillery duel. Everyone from our world that I mention by name is from this world. Of course, many are very minor people about whom very little is known, but that's not too much of an issue. I'm not expecting them to be reading this!
Raunchel
Thanks for the quick response. Not sure if I want Britain to try and form a league to oppose the Dutch - as you say there are a number of other powers likely to be upset by the Dutch actions in Chile - or do nothing for the moment in the hope [for me as they don't know about it] that the Dutch and Germans end up at war. The other problem is that if they did seek to monopolise the supply it makes a CP victory in their war almost certain as France and Russia would have serious problems.
I knew there are other sources. IIRC I remember reading where about 1850 or so the US was trying to grab every nitrate island they could although it was largely used for fertiliser then. However didn't think any of them were significant in this time period. However that would definitely be useful as would a major bid to get a Haber capacity in their own country which is the long term solution. Think there was some attempt about this period by the US to develop the energy intensive method using power from Niagara Falls which they might try and develop but that would probably be a limited solution.
Didn't realise all the people were from real life. That's a hell of a task there.
Steve
I have the time, I'm finishing tome experiments now, and there isn't anyone around here to talk to The islands and the like could only provide small amounts. Other sources would have to be synthetic in nature. Of course, we now know that they're superior. But it's expensive and takes quite a bit of expertise. There is a good reason why Germany was in the lead in the field. They really were far ahead of the competition as far as chemistry was concerned. It would take quite some work to get it started, but with a strong enough need (such as needing fertilizer and explosives), it can be done within a couple of years. There are existing stocks, but it will be hard to confiscate them for vital purposes. Especially on a short term. It's the same as in my Egyptian story and all the other historical things that I write. Of course, for the ancients I have to make people up to fill certain roles, but this is more recent and there are so many people of whom at least a name and occupation are known. And there are so many fascinating women to include! |
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raunchel
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Post by raunchel on Dec 7, 2018 9:08:18 GMT
Battlecruiser Geloof, November 17, 1914
Dearest Jakoba,
I am sorry for not having waited for your most recent letter, but the events of earlier today compel me to write you. This very night, a part of our Channel Patrol came under attack. The armoured cruiser David en Goliath was attacked with torpedoes.
Fortunately, the crew could detect the wakes in the moonlight and evasive maneuvers were performed. Only a single hit was suffered, and the submarine that had launched the attack was sighted and sunk with all hands. With the aid of other ships, David en Goliath made it back to Kales for repairs. Sixteen sailors have lost their life in this cowardly attack.
We are sending out divers to find the submarine’s wreck and look for evidence regarding the perpetrators of this treacherous act. I have ordered all my ships to be at full alert but to refrain from firing until the enemy begins hostilities. The squadron is kept ready to steam at short notice.
Word has reached us that admiral Wolters is indeed occupying New York given an apparent lack of enemy army units. His reinforcements have pushed inland and have been placed under the command of general Goris. I don’t know him very well, but given that he’s an actual army officer, not even a marine, I don’t have high hopes.
Your loving father,
Johan Rots
Berlin, November 21, 1914
Dear Father,
The dreadful news has reached us here in Berlin and it’s beyond words. When I heard that one of our ships had been attacked, I was worried for you until I knew which ship it was. It shocked me that someone would dare to do such a thing at a time like this.
At first, I would have suspected the English to be behind this, but I don’t see why. They only hit an old armoured cruiser, not a modern battlecruiser or other kind of warship. If they wanted to start a war with us, I would have expected them to simply attack us directly, to seize any surprise they can to cause maximum destruction.
That leaves two possible causes. The French or the Germans. The French could be attempting to make it look like someone else was responsible, but the location points either towards them or to the English. And the English are more likely to blame, given the location. I believe that those two are aligned in some regards, and such a war wouldn’t gain the French much.
The other option is that the Germans are guilty. I am inclined to believe this given the revelations from Madrid concerning their possible involvement. Elsbeth and Karen both deem this rather unlikely, pointing to the geography and that they are already winning their war.
To me, it doesn’t look like that however. The French front has come to a stalemate, and only their eastern victories give the Germans any hope for a quick resolution. They did push for us to let them pass through the southern provinces to attack France, and I still hear about it, albeit more muted than before.
If they indeed were responsible for this attack, they must have supposed that we would suspect the French or English, and thus be forced to fight them. Because of my many friendships here, I pray that this isn’t the case and hope that the divers will find conclusive evidence.
Other than that, things have been developing further here. The Germans are on the outskirts of Warsaw while the Austrians are advancing further east. The common belief is that most of Poland will be in their hands before the year is out.
Uncle Sytze has been meeting with the Turk again, while I was again invited by the emperor. He spoke to me about his plans for Europe after they have won the war. He wants to ensure peace by cooperation, which I find a beautiful ideal although I have come to fear that man’s nature makes that very difficult indeed.
I however agreed that trade between nations will always be a good thing. From there, we moved to our blockade of the North Americans. It seems that he finds this rather worrisome because of the importance of this trade to him. I assured him that soon enough, the North Americans will see sense and seek peace.
He also revealed to me that more than a hundred thousand German men have already died, with more than two hundred thousand wounded. Such numbers are simply stunning, especially when he told me that he expected more losses to come before the war is over.
Naturally, I didn’t say anything about the recent incident, only saying that it is being investigated. He immediately said that it had to be the French, claiming that they were getting desperate because of their losses and by doing this hoped to bring in English support.
I pray that this situation can soon be resolved so we can continue in peace.
Your loving daughter,
Jakoba
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Dec 7, 2018 9:14:26 GMT
Battlecruiser Geloof, November 17, 1914Dearest Jakoba, I am sorry for not having waited for your most recent letter, but the events of earlier today compel me to write you. This very night, a part of our Channel Patrol came under attack. The armoured cruiser David en Goliath was attacked with torpedoes. Fortunately, the crew could detect the wakes in the moonlight and evasive maneuvers were performed. Only a single hit was suffered, and the submarine that had launched the attack was sighted and sunk with all hands. With the aid of other ships, David en Goliath made it back to Kales for repairs. Sixteen sailors have lost their life in this cowardly attack. We are sending out divers to find the submarine’s wreck and look for evidence regarding the perpetrators of this treacherous act. I have ordered all my ships to be at full alert but to refrain from firing until the enemy begins hostilities. The squadron is kept ready to steam at short notice. Word has reached us that admiral Wolters is indeed occupying New York given an apparent lack of enemy army units. His reinforcements have pushed inland and have been placed under the command of general Goris. I don’t know him very well, but given that he’s an actual army officer, not even a marine, I don’t have high hopes. Your loving father, Johan Rots Berlin, November 21, 1914Dear Father, The dreadful news has reached us here in Berlin and it’s beyond words. When I heard that one of our ships had been attacked, I was worried for you until I knew which ship it was. It shocked me that someone would dare to do such a thing at a time like this. At first, I would have suspected the English to be behind this, but I don’t see why. They only hit an old armoured cruiser, not a modern battlecruiser or other kind of warship. If they wanted to start a war with us, I would have expected them to simply attack us directly, to seize any surprise they can to cause maximum destruction. That leaves two possible causes. The French or the Germans. The French could be attempting to make it look like someone else was responsible, but the location points either towards them or to the English. And the English are more likely to blame, given the location. I believe that those two are aligned in some regards, and such a war wouldn’t gain the French much. The other option is that the Germans are guilty. I am inclined to believe this given the revelations from Madrid concerning their possible involvement. Elsbeth and Karen both deem this rather unlikely, pointing to the geography and that they are already winning their war. To me, it doesn’t look like that however. The French front has come to a stalemate, and only their eastern victories give the Germans any hope for a quick resolution. They did push for us to let them pass through the southern provinces to attack France, and I still hear about it, albeit more muted than before. If they indeed were responsible for this attack, they must have supposed that we would suspect the French or English, and thus be forced to fight them. Because of my many friendships here, I pray that this isn’t the case and hope that the divers will find conclusive evidence. Other than that, things have been developing further here. The Germans are on the outskirts of Warsaw while the Austrians are advancing further east. The common belief is that most of Poland will be in their hands before the year is out. Uncle Sytze has been meeting with the Turk again, while I was again invited by the emperor. He spoke to me about his plans for Europe after they have won the war. He wants to ensure peace by cooperation, which I find a beautiful ideal although I have come to fear that man’s nature makes that very difficult indeed. I however agreed that trade between nations will always be a good thing. From there, we moved to our blockade of the North Americans. It seems that he finds this rather worrisome because of the importance of this trade to him. I assured him that soon enough, the North Americans will see sense and seek peace. He also revealed to me that more than a hundred thousand German men have already died, with more than two hundred thousand wounded. Such numbers are simply stunning, especially when he told me that he expected more losses to come before the war is over. Naturally, I didn’t say anything about the recent incident, only saying that it is being investigated. He immediately said that it had to be the French, claiming that they were getting desperate because of their losses and by doing this hoped to bring in English support. I pray that this situation can soon be resolved so we can continue in peace. Your loving daughter, Jakoba Nice udate raunchel So a Republic cruiser sunk by a American submarine as i doubt a British submarine operates this far from the United Kingdom. Also the Republic occupying New York, that must take a lot of manpower. |
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raunchel
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Post by raunchel on Dec 7, 2018 9:21:01 GMT
Battlecruiser Geloof, November 17, 1914Dearest Jakoba, I am sorry for not having waited for your most recent letter, but the events of earlier today compel me to write you. This very night, a part of our Channel Patrol came under attack. The armoured cruiser David en Goliath was attacked with torpedoes. Fortunately, the crew could detect the wakes in the moonlight and evasive maneuvers were performed. Only a single hit was suffered, and the submarine that had launched the attack was sighted and sunk with all hands. With the aid of other ships, David en Goliath made it back to Kales for repairs. Sixteen sailors have lost their life in this cowardly attack. We are sending out divers to find the submarine’s wreck and look for evidence regarding the perpetrators of this treacherous act. I have ordered all my ships to be at full alert but to refrain from firing until the enemy begins hostilities. The squadron is kept ready to steam at short notice. Word has reached us that admiral Wolters is indeed occupying New York given an apparent lack of enemy army units. His reinforcements have pushed inland and have been placed under the command of general Goris. I don’t know him very well, but given that he’s an actual army officer, not even a marine, I don’t have high hopes. Your loving father, Johan Rots Berlin, November 21, 1914Dear Father, The dreadful news has reached us here in Berlin and it’s beyond words. When I heard that one of our ships had been attacked, I was worried for you until I knew which ship it was. It shocked me that someone would dare to do such a thing at a time like this. At first, I would have suspected the English to be behind this, but I don’t see why. They only hit an old armoured cruiser, not a modern battlecruiser or other kind of warship. If they wanted to start a war with us, I would have expected them to simply attack us directly, to seize any surprise they can to cause maximum destruction. That leaves two possible causes. The French or the Germans. The French could be attempting to make it look like someone else was responsible, but the location points either towards them or to the English. And the English are more likely to blame, given the location. I believe that those two are aligned in some regards, and such a war wouldn’t gain the French much. The other option is that the Germans are guilty. I am inclined to believe this given the revelations from Madrid concerning their possible involvement. Elsbeth and Karen both deem this rather unlikely, pointing to the geography and that they are already winning their war. To me, it doesn’t look like that however. The French front has come to a stalemate, and only their eastern victories give the Germans any hope for a quick resolution. They did push for us to let them pass through the southern provinces to attack France, and I still hear about it, albeit more muted than before. If they indeed were responsible for this attack, they must have supposed that we would suspect the French or English, and thus be forced to fight them. Because of my many friendships here, I pray that this isn’t the case and hope that the divers will find conclusive evidence. Other than that, things have been developing further here. The Germans are on the outskirts of Warsaw while the Austrians are advancing further east. The common belief is that most of Poland will be in their hands before the year is out. Uncle Sytze has been meeting with the Turk again, while I was again invited by the emperor. He spoke to me about his plans for Europe after they have won the war. He wants to ensure peace by cooperation, which I find a beautiful ideal although I have come to fear that man’s nature makes that very difficult indeed. I however agreed that trade between nations will always be a good thing. From there, we moved to our blockade of the North Americans. It seems that he finds this rather worrisome because of the importance of this trade to him. I assured him that soon enough, the North Americans will see sense and seek peace. He also revealed to me that more than a hundred thousand German men have already died, with more than two hundred thousand wounded. Such numbers are simply stunning, especially when he told me that he expected more losses to come before the war is over. Naturally, I didn’t say anything about the recent incident, only saying that it is being investigated. He immediately said that it had to be the French, claiming that they were getting desperate because of their losses and by doing this hoped to bring in English support. I pray that this situation can soon be resolved so we can continue in peace. Your loving daughter, Jakoba Nice udate raunchel So a Republic cruiser sunk by a American submarine as i doubt a British submarine operates this far from the United Kingdom. Also the Republic occupying New York, that must take a lot of manpower. The attack was in the Channel, the Americans don't have the reach to go all that way. And even if they were seriously employing subs, they have a better use back home. Occupying New York will turn into a bit of an issue yes. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Dec 7, 2018 11:04:08 GMT
Battlecruiser Geloof, November 17, 1914Dearest Jakoba, I am sorry for not having waited for your most recent letter, but the events of earlier today compel me to write you. This very night, a part of our Channel Patrol came under attack. The armoured cruiser David en Goliath was attacked with torpedoes. Fortunately, the crew could detect the wakes in the moonlight and evasive maneuvers were performed. Only a single hit was suffered, and the submarine that had launched the attack was sighted and sunk with all hands. With the aid of other ships, David en Goliath made it back to Kales for repairs. Sixteen sailors have lost their life in this cowardly attack. We are sending out divers to find the submarine’s wreck and look for evidence regarding the perpetrators of this treacherous act. I have ordered all my ships to be at full alert but to refrain from firing until the enemy begins hostilities. The squadron is kept ready to steam at short notice. Word has reached us that admiral Wolters is indeed occupying New York given an apparent lack of enemy army units. His reinforcements have pushed inland and have been placed under the command of general Goris. I don’t know him very well, but given that he’s an actual army officer, not even a marine, I don’t have high hopes. Your loving father, Johan Rots Berlin, November 21, 1914Dear Father, The dreadful news has reached us here in Berlin and it’s beyond words. When I heard that one of our ships had been attacked, I was worried for you until I knew which ship it was. It shocked me that someone would dare to do such a thing at a time like this. At first, I would have suspected the English to be behind this, but I don’t see why. They only hit an old armoured cruiser, not a modern battlecruiser or other kind of warship. If they wanted to start a war with us, I would have expected them to simply attack us directly, to seize any surprise they can to cause maximum destruction. That leaves two possible causes. The French or the Germans. The French could be attempting to make it look like someone else was responsible, but the location points either towards them or to the English. And the English are more likely to blame, given the location. I believe that those two are aligned in some regards, and such a war wouldn’t gain the French much. The other option is that the Germans are guilty. I am inclined to believe this given the revelations from Madrid concerning their possible involvement. Elsbeth and Karen both deem this rather unlikely, pointing to the geography and that they are already winning their war. To me, it doesn’t look like that however. The French front has come to a stalemate, and only their eastern victories give the Germans any hope for a quick resolution. They did push for us to let them pass through the southern provinces to attack France, and I still hear about it, albeit more muted than before. If they indeed were responsible for this attack, they must have supposed that we would suspect the French or English, and thus be forced to fight them. Because of my many friendships here, I pray that this isn’t the case and hope that the divers will find conclusive evidence. Other than that, things have been developing further here. The Germans are on the outskirts of Warsaw while the Austrians are advancing further east. The common belief is that most of Poland will be in their hands before the year is out. Uncle Sytze has been meeting with the Turk again, while I was again invited by the emperor. He spoke to me about his plans for Europe after they have won the war. He wants to ensure peace by cooperation, which I find a beautiful ideal although I have come to fear that man’s nature makes that very difficult indeed. I however agreed that trade between nations will always be a good thing. From there, we moved to our blockade of the North Americans. It seems that he finds this rather worrisome because of the importance of this trade to him. I assured him that soon enough, the North Americans will see sense and seek peace. He also revealed to me that more than a hundred thousand German men have already died, with more than two hundred thousand wounded. Such numbers are simply stunning, especially when he told me that he expected more losses to come before the war is over. Naturally, I didn’t say anything about the recent incident, only saying that it is being investigated. He immediately said that it had to be the French, claiming that they were getting desperate because of their losses and by doing this hoped to bring in English support. I pray that this situation can soon be resolved so we can continue in peace. Your loving daughter, Jakoba
Raunchel
Well that is interesting and dramatic. It could be a RN sub that got trigger happy for some reason but very much doubt the RN would authorise such an action. As Jakoba says, in the unlikely event of Britain deciding on a sneak attack like this the RN would be planning a much more significant blow.
A French sub is a possibility, especially if there was a mistaken identity and they thought it was a German force but again that seems unlikely. Germany could be a candidate but it would be a rash move, although thinking of how Germany got America into the war that isn't impossible. Other than that with the range of subs at the time and the current political situation I can't really see any other nation having a sub in the area. If it is a German sub and given the info from Spain I think the French are going to have a powerful ally. Although can the Dutch hold their homeland, even with reserves mobilised, against the German army or would they need to, and be willing to, ask the French for support? It would also given an interesting comparison of the Dutch with OTL in terms of military effectiveness. Would probably also mean that French concerns about nitrate supplies disappear as the Dutch would want them to be able to continue fighting.
One thing I find a bit strange is that it sounds like the sub was on the surface as they located it? True the Germans attacked at night in the Atlantic in WWII but that was in part because they knew the British had Asdic/Sonar and I would have thought that they would have been submerged, or at least submerged after the attack. Could also have been on the surface as they could move faster. If it did submerge then either they were lucky to catch it or they have something like depth charges for attacking subs, which I don't think anyone in OTL had at the time.
While it looks good at the moment I think the holding of New York and especially the push inland is going to end badly for the Dutch as it plays to American strengths in manpower.
Like the service rivalry between the navy and army. All too often in many countries.
Steve
PS Should have said, glad that Jakoba was using her brain and considering who the likely attackers were. Fearing that Johan and the other hawks would assume that the British were responsible and probably another incident would quickly follow.
If it is proved to be Germany and war with the Dutch follows then it would be interesting which way Britain goes, of the three options available? Can't really see them siding with Germany, especially with Germany shown to be trying to trigger an Anglo-Dutch war. However do they join the war against the Germans or stay neutral? I can see arguments either way.
Neutrality would avoid possibly a damaging split in the government over the issue and willingness to go to war could be low with reports of the size of the casualty lists being reported. On the other hand German actions are a clear casus belli, we were friendly with the French before and can Britain afford to see France, the Netherlands and Russia as victorious allies dominating Europe with them isolated? Although that would also mean we're 'allied' with the Dutch who are at war with the Japanese - our only formal ally - and the US, a major trading partner which could cause difficulties. Not sure which way we would go myself or which is the best approach for Britain.
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I rather hope not for her sake as it could be both embarrassing for her and a great humiliation.
