futurist
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Post by futurist on Jun 29, 2018 23:59:07 GMT
What if the Soviet Union of 1945 would have been transported to the world of 1941?
Specifically, the Soviet Union would be much stronger in this scenario, but it would also be extremely bled dry whereas Germany would still have the millions of German men who ended up getting killed on the Eastern Front later on in real life.
Anyway, any thoughts on how this scenario would unfold?
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jun 30, 2018 7:51:58 GMT
What if the Soviet Union of 1945 would have been transported to the world of 1941? Specifically, the Soviet Union would be much stronger in this scenario, but it would also be extremely bled dry whereas Germany would still have the millions of German men who ended up getting killed on the Eastern Front later on in real life. Anyway, any thoughts on how this scenario would unfold? Before ore after Operation Barbarossa.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jun 30, 2018 12:25:39 GMT
What if the Soviet Union of 1945 would have been transported to the world of 1941? Specifically, the Soviet Union would be much stronger in this scenario, but it would also be extremely bled dry whereas Germany would still have the millions of German men who ended up getting killed on the Eastern Front later on in real life. Anyway, any thoughts on how this scenario would unfold? Before ore after Operation Barbarossa.
Probably shortly before and I would guess with the Red Army of OTL 45 somewhere in Russia rather than suddenly around Berlin, Prague and the Balkans, etc.
If it was just before the Soviets are going to be very confused and take some time to sort themselves out. However the Germans are going to be very shocked when they meet T34/85s and other 1945 Soviet weapons, being operated by veterans who have fought the Germans all the way to Berlin.
Going to be interesting the interaction between Stalin and Churchill in this situation. Would the transported SU have the 45 or 41 foreign embassies? If the former their going to have a lot to tell Churchill, Roosevelt and others and how quickly their believed. Mind you the two western powers will get warning of what the Japanese are moving towards.
If the 41 SU, has its 45 forces and industrial base then it should make short work of the European Axis, and the question is how far would Stalin go. Both Portugal and Spain have right wing fascist rulers so might be seen as fair game for expansion, as are the minor allies in the Balkans while the Soviets are unlikely to be willing to let the monarchies return to Greece or Yugoslavia when they 'liberate' those lands. However does he go further, possibly forcing Turkey to cede control of the straits or even attacking Britain? Even Stalin might recognise the latter would be a step too far but you could end up with all of continental Europe being Soviet controlled satellites.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jun 30, 2018 12:27:44 GMT
Before ore after Operation Barbarossa. Probably shortly before and I would guess with the Red Army of OTL 45 somewhere in Russia rather than suddenly around Berlin, Prague and the Balkans, etc. If it was just before the Soviets are going to be very confused and take some time to sort themselves out. However the Germans are going to be very shocked when they meet T34/85s and other 1945 Soviet weapons, being operated by veterans who have fought the Germans all the way to Berlin.
Going to be interesting the interaction between Stalin and Churchill in this situation. Would the transported SU have the 45 or 41 foreign embassies? If the former their going to have a lot to tell Churchill, Roosevelt and others and how quickly their believed. Mind you the two western powers will get warning of what the Japanese are moving towards. If the 41 SU, has its 45 forces and industrial base then it should make short work of the European Axis, and the question is how far would Stalin go. Both Portugal and Spain have right wing fascist rulers so might be seen as fair game for expansion, as are the minor allies in the Balkans while the Soviets are unlikely to be willing to let the monarchies return to Greece or Yugoslavia when they 'liberate' those lands. However does he go further, possibly forcing Turkey to cede control of the straits or even attacking Britain? Even Stalin might recognise the latter would be a step too far but you could end up with all of continental Europe being Soviet controlled satellites.
Will the 45 Soviet Union want to go for a second round with Germany, they just have fought 4 bloody years against Germany, they will have to do it all over again against a army which might be 4 years less advance but not yet as bloodied as they have.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jun 30, 2018 16:03:11 GMT
Probably shortly before and I would guess with the Red Army of OTL 45 somewhere in Russia rather than suddenly around Berlin, Prague and the Balkans, etc. If it was just before the Soviets are going to be very confused and take some time to sort themselves out. However the Germans are going to be very shocked when they meet T34/85s and other 1945 Soviet weapons, being operated by veterans who have fought the Germans all the way to Berlin.
Going to be interesting the interaction between Stalin and Churchill in this situation. Would the transported SU have the 45 or 41 foreign embassies? If the former their going to have a lot to tell Churchill, Roosevelt and others and how quickly their believed. Mind you the two western powers will get warning of what the Japanese are moving towards. If the 41 SU, has its 45 forces and industrial base then it should make short work of the European Axis, and the question is how far would Stalin go. Both Portugal and Spain have right wing fascist rulers so might be seen as fair game for expansion, as are the minor allies in the Balkans while the Soviets are unlikely to be willing to let the monarchies return to Greece or Yugoslavia when they 'liberate' those lands. However does he go further, possibly forcing Turkey to cede control of the straits or even attacking Britain? Even Stalin might recognise the latter would be a step too far but you could end up with all of continental Europe being Soviet controlled satellites.
Will the 45 Soviet Union want to go for a second round with Germany, they just have fought 4 bloody years against Germany, they will have to do it all over again against a army which might be 4 years less advance but not yet as bloodied as they have.
Presuming they have their forces in position, i.e. somewhere in the SU, I can't see them not doing so. Both for revenge and because they would see the Nazis as too much of a threat. Also depending on the date they might not have any choice giving the Germans are preparing to attack and Hitler is very eager for it. Even if he is persuaded somehow to cancel the attack the Soviets are as you say seriously blooded and they can't rely on the Nazis not closing the technological gap and attacking at a later stage.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jun 30, 2018 16:14:06 GMT
Will the 45 Soviet Union want to go for a second round with Germany, they just have fought 4 bloody years against Germany, they will have to do it all over again against a army which might be 4 years less advance but not yet as bloodied as they have. Presuming they have their forces in position, i.e. somewhere in the SU, I can't see them not doing so. Both for revenge and because they would see the Nazis as too much of a threat. Also depending on the date they might not have any choice giving the Germans are preparing to attack and Hitler is very eager for it. Even if he is persuaded somehow to cancel the attack the Soviets are as you say seriously blooded and they can't rely on the Nazis not closing the technological gap and attacking at a later stage.
stevep the first post only say the Soviet Union, but on May 1945 the Soviet Army was in places like Germany,Poland, hungary and other East European countries like what this map shows, this means that the Soviet Union of 1945 which has been transported to 1941 has lost these armies.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jun 30, 2018 16:21:27 GMT
That's why I said if they have their forces in place. If not and depending on how near they are to 22-6-41 they could be in very deep s**t. We really need futurist to clarify this.
If they don't have the forces and that would depend on what date their taken from in 45 as to exactly what and their taken to just before the German attack they could get taken by surprise again and the Germans are going to be hitting into a vacuum at 1st as there will be virtually no defences, which will surprise them. Probably a lot of partisans however quickly developing while they won't get their OTL: welcome from just about anyone in the areas they occupy, other than the Baltics. It would depend on what the Soviets have and how quickly they can get those into action.
Even if the Germans take Moscow say the Soviets have a lot of industry further east and can build some very nasty equipment while - again depending on the dates - they will have their far eastern forces which might include units being switched to attack Manchuria. As such it could be a very long and bloody war for both sides but a Nazi victory could be possible.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jun 30, 2018 16:26:05 GMT
That's why I said if they have their forces in place. If not and depending on how near they are to 22-6-41 they could be in very deep s**t. We really need futurist to clarify this.
Sorry missed that line, but still how is the Soviet Union of 1945 which lost large amount of forces (lets assume they stay in 1945) going to handle a upcoming German invasion, do they have the reserves in place to stop the German onslaught for a second time.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jun 30, 2018 17:52:23 GMT
That's why I said if they have their forces in place. If not and depending on how near they are to 22-6-41 they could be in very deep s**t. We really need futurist to clarify this.
Sorry missed that line, but still how is the Soviet Union of 1945 which lost large amount of forces (lets assume they stay in 1945) going to handle a upcoming German invasion, do they have the reserves in place to stop the German onslaught for a second time.
If you mean their OTL forces in 45 that were outside the 41 borders of the Su were lost then its going to be bloody difficult. Again a lot depends on what the dates are as there were still units in the SU territory. For instance during the Yalta Conference Stalin had large numbers of soldiers displayed to the western delegates and there would be forces in the Far East watching the Japanese as well as probably other units being trained up.
If say the pod is from 22-6-45 to 22-6-41, which is the worst situation for the Soviets the Germans are going to face little resistance at 1st because there will be relatively few Soviet units in the border regions. Might have a few seeking to suppress Polish/Ukrainian unrest in the south and centre of the front and others forming up in cities a bit further back. However even to Moscow its a hell of a long way while the Soviets have sizeable population and industrial resources in the Urals and further east. At this point they may already have started shipping units east to prepare for attacking Japan and those, along with other units in the Far East can form the nucleus of a force to fight the Nazis. Furthermore with the nature of the SU its likely to have substantial forces operating as garrisons.
There would be another source of potential manpower. Millions of Soviets who survived being POWs were returned to the SU and in most cases sent to the camps as 'traitors' for surrendering. Some of them may well be in transit and they can be a source of additional manpower.
The Soviets are going to be desperately short of trained manpower in the short term but still have a pool, although greatly reduced of reserves. If that can be used to hold the line while the trained 45 units can be used as an hammer they can probably inflict some very nasty losses on the Germans. Moscow itself might fall in this scenario but there will be so much capacity far to the east to produce far more powerful air and ground forces than the Germans are familiar with and also the further east they get the more widely they will be spread. As such the Germans and their allies might win eventually but its probably likely to take at least a couple of years and heavy losses among the German forces. Which would give chances for the western powers to respond to events, especially if diplomatic and possibly attached military advisors from the western powers are brought along as well.
There is one other factor here. If we take the OP literally, "What if the Soviet Union of 1945 would have been transported to the world of 1941?" then the Germans have lost at least a good chunk of AGN that's started off in what's now the Kaliningrad enclave, being replaced by the Soviet garrison that will be there in 45. Think they would have lost some forces in the centre of the line as well. So both armies could be thrown into a degree of confusion.
We really need furturist to clarify the exact details. If the 45 Red army is re-deployed then its a Soviet wank pretty quickly. If not they may lose eventually but its going to be a bloody long slog.
As I say i
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jun 30, 2018 18:07:06 GMT
Sorry missed that line, but still how is the Soviet Union of 1945 which lost large amount of forces (lets assume they stay in 1945) going to handle a upcoming German invasion, do they have the reserves in place to stop the German onslaught for a second time. If you mean their OTL forces in 45 that were outside the 41 borders of the Su were lost then its going to be bloody difficult. Again a lot depends on what the dates are as there were still units in the SU territory. For instance during the Yalta Conference Stalin had large numbers of soldiers displayed to the western delegates and there would be forces in the Far East watching the Japanese as well as probably other units being trained up. If say the pod is from 22-6-45 to 22-6-41, which is the worst situation for the Soviets the Germans are going to face little resistance at 1st because there will be relatively few Soviet units in the border regions. Might have a few seeking to suppress Polish/Ukrainian unrest in the south and centre of the front and others forming up in cities a bit further back. However even to Moscow its a hell of a long way while the Soviets have sizeable population and industrial resources in the Urals and further east. At this point they may already have started shipping units east to prepare for attacking Japan and those, along with other units in the Far East can form the nucleus of a force to fight the Nazis. Furthermore with the nature of the SU its likely to have substantial forces operating as garrisons.
There would be another source of potential manpower. Millions of Soviets who survived being POWs were returned to the SU and in most cases sent to the camps as 'traitors' for surrendering. Some of them may well be in transit and they can be a source of additional manpower.
The Soviets are going to be desperately short of trained manpower in the short term but still have a pool, although greatly reduced of reserves. If that can be used to hold the line while the trained 45 units can be used as an hammer they can probably inflict some very nasty losses on the Germans. Moscow itself might fall in this scenario but there will be so much capacity far to the east to produce far more powerful air and ground forces than the Germans are familiar with and also the further east they get the more widely they will be spread. As such the Germans and their allies might win eventually but its probably likely to take at least a couple of years and heavy losses among the German forces. Which would give chances for the western powers to respond to events, especially if diplomatic and possibly attached military advisors from the western powers are brought along as well.
There is one other factor here. If we take the OP literally, "What if the Soviet Union of 1945 would have been transported to the world of 1941?" then the Germans have lost at least a good chunk of AGN that's started off in what's now the Kaliningrad enclave, being replaced by the Soviet garrison that will be there in 45. Think they would have lost some forces in the centre of the line as well. So both armies could be thrown into a degree of confusion. We really need furturist to clarify the exact details. If the 45 Red army is re-deployed then its a Soviet wank pretty quickly. If not they may lose eventually but its going to be a bloody long slog.
As I say i
Think you are right, futurist needs to give us a date for this, because it could end up a Germans wank ore Soviet wank depending on the date.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jun 30, 2018 18:14:42 GMT
If you mean their OTL forces in 45 that were outside the 41 borders of the Su were lost then its going to be bloody difficult. Again a lot depends on what the dates are as there were still units in the SU territory. For instance during the Yalta Conference Stalin had large numbers of soldiers displayed to the western delegates and there would be forces in the Far East watching the Japanese as well as probably other units being trained up. If say the pod is from 22-6-45 to 22-6-41, which is the worst situation for the Soviets the Germans are going to face little resistance at 1st because there will be relatively few Soviet units in the border regions. Might have a few seeking to suppress Polish/Ukrainian unrest in the south and centre of the front and others forming up in cities a bit further back. However even to Moscow its a hell of a long way while the Soviets have sizeable population and industrial resources in the Urals and further east. At this point they may already have started shipping units east to prepare for attacking Japan and those, along with other units in the Far East can form the nucleus of a force to fight the Nazis. Furthermore with the nature of the SU its likely to have substantial forces operating as garrisons.
There would be another source of potential manpower. Millions of Soviets who survived being POWs were returned to the SU and in most cases sent to the camps as 'traitors' for surrendering. Some of them may well be in transit and they can be a source of additional manpower.
The Soviets are going to be desperately short of trained manpower in the short term but still have a pool, although greatly reduced of reserves. If that can be used to hold the line while the trained 45 units can be used as an hammer they can probably inflict some very nasty losses on the Germans. Moscow itself might fall in this scenario but there will be so much capacity far to the east to produce far more powerful air and ground forces than the Germans are familiar with and also the further east they get the more widely they will be spread. As such the Germans and their allies might win eventually but its probably likely to take at least a couple of years and heavy losses among the German forces. Which would give chances for the western powers to respond to events, especially if diplomatic and possibly attached military advisors from the western powers are brought along as well.
There is one other factor here. If we take the OP literally, "What if the Soviet Union of 1945 would have been transported to the world of 1941?" then the Germans have lost at least a good chunk of AGN that's started off in what's now the Kaliningrad enclave, being replaced by the Soviet garrison that will be there in 45. Think they would have lost some forces in the centre of the line as well. So both armies could be thrown into a degree of confusion. We really need furturist to clarify the exact details. If the 45 Red army is re-deployed then its a Soviet wank pretty quickly. If not they may lose eventually but its going to be a bloody long slog.
As I say i
Think you are right, futurist needs to give us a date for this, because it could end up a Germans wank ore Soviet wank depending on the date.
I don't know about a German wank. Imagine the logistics for the Germans fighting in the Urals in say 43! They might win but its going to be very costly. Not to mention the costs of trying to garrison such a huge area. Which will be very, very costly for the Soviet population as well I fear.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jun 30, 2018 18:18:08 GMT
Think you are right, futurist needs to give us a date for this, because it could end up a Germans wank ore Soviet wank depending on the date. I don't know about a German wank. Imagine the logistics for the Germans fighting in the Urals in say 43! They might win but its going to be very costly. Not to mention the costs of trying to garrison such a huge area. Which will be very, very costly for the Soviet population as well I fear.
Also we must not forget, the Soviet people already have suffer 4 years of death and destruction, can they survive another war.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jun 30, 2018 18:28:45 GMT
I don't know about a German wank. Imagine the logistics for the Germans fighting in the Urals in say 43! They might win but its going to be very costly. Not to mention the costs of trying to garrison such a huge area. Which will be very, very costly for the Soviet population as well I fear.
Also we must not forget, the Soviet people already have suffer 4 years of death and destruction, can they survive another war.
The ones who have already been through the cauldron will have a better chance but many are likely to die I fear. However given we're talking about the Nazis and what the Germans did historically they don't have much choice. Plus this time around there will be few if any willing to welcome the Germans, outside the Baltic states and possibly the Caucasus region if the Germans get that far.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jun 30, 2018 19:06:15 GMT
Also we must not forget, the Soviet people already have suffer 4 years of death and destruction, can they survive another war. The ones who have already been through the cauldron will have a better chance but many are likely to die I fear. However given we're talking about the Nazis and what the Germans did historically they don't have much choice. Plus this time around there will be few if any willing to welcome the Germans, outside the Baltic states and possibly the Caucasus region if the Germans get that far.
Depending on futurist answer when 1945 Soviet Union comes from, could we see a Soviet attack before a German attack.
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futurist
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Post by futurist on Jul 1, 2018 0:17:45 GMT
What if the Soviet Union of 1945 would have been transported to the world of 1941? Specifically, the Soviet Union would be much stronger in this scenario, but it would also be extremely bled dry whereas Germany would still have the millions of German men who ended up getting killed on the Eastern Front later on in real life. Anyway, any thoughts on how this scenario would unfold? Before ore after Operation Barbarossa. Right before. Also, the Soviet forces that are located outside of the Soviet Union in 1945 and placed inside of the Soviet Union--specifically right next to the 1941 Soviet borders--in 1941 in this scenario.
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